Bill Morris

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Presenter0:09

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety eight and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:31

My Castaway this week is a trade unionist. He was born in Jamaica, but instead of realizing his boyhood dream of playing cricket for the West Indies at the age of fifteen, he followed his widowed mother to Birmingham. At the small engineering firm where he found a job, he wanted to wear a white coat and play the boss, but fate planned that he should lead a workers' deputation, and within a few years he became a shop steward.

Presenter0:54

Forty years on, he's the boss at last, but of his union, not of his firm. His membership has shrunk by half in the past twenty years, but he remains an outspoken campaigner for workers' rights and conditions. I was born a Socialist, he says, and will die a Socialist, but I'm a manager, too. He is the General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union, Bill Morris. So being the boss is what it's all about, is it, Bill? You like being in charge.

Bill Morris1:21

Well, I like to make decisions and being the chief executive of the organization, as well as giving political leadership to the organization, gives me a sense of satisfaction. Not that I always get my own way, but at least I can seek to motivate and infuse others.

Presenter1:37

But it's interesting, isn't it, e that even at that early age you coveted the role of the supervisor. What was it that you fancied about that job?

Bill Morris1:44

Well, it brings authority. But I abandoned my supervisory ambitions because I had one occasion when I returned to my department

Bill Morris1:56

They had a a burst pipe while I was away. Someone was putting a lot of sawdust. I shouted out, Steady on with that sawdust. It doesn't grow on trees, you know. And the man looked me in the eye and he said, It does, you know. So that was my first mistake of management.

Presenter2:10

Smell that

Presenter2:13

But what did you do in that job, that first job? You sat at a bench and I was.

Bill Morris2:17

No, I was a I was a a machine operator and making component parts for the motor industry.

Presenter2:23

And what you had to do to become the supervisor and get the white coat was keep your nose clean, presumably.

Bill Morris2:27

That's all, because there was uh no equal opportunity policies, the job wasn't advertised, uh supervisors emerge like uh leaders of the Tory party used to emerge in the old days, or indeed if you look, you will see white smoke just uh coming out of the chimney. That's how you know we have a new supervisor.

Presenter2:48

But it didn't happen for you because of this fateful day when you had the the gall to ask for more. I think in your case it was protective gloves.

Bill Morris2:57

We had the need to get some protective clothing. Our representative was off sick. But we decided rather than to have one person risk his neck, we would send a deputation, you know, waiting numbers. So about four or five of us trooped down to the supervisor's office. We stood outside having a big conversation as to who would go in first. Somebody obviously pushed me because I found myself standing in front of this man and he kept me waiting for a very, very long time. Well, at least it seemed a long time. And then he looked up and he said, yes.

Bill Morris3:34

But I can tell you we did manage to get our gloves.

Presenter3:37

Record number one.

Bill Morris3:40

Even as a child, my mother used to pay additional fees for me to have extra tuition. But what she didn't know is that I was playing cricket instead. The whole thing came to a head when she met up with my teacher at church, asked for a progress report, and the teacher said, Progress, what progress? I haven't seen Bill for six months.

Bill Morris4:05

But my record also reminds me of the fateful day when the West Indies beat England in a Test match at Lodge in 1957 for the very first time. And I can just hear the 15 million people or so in the Caribbean just holding their breath and then they just shouted Yes.

Speaker 14:26

West Indies first in total was 326 just as usual. When deaths the bowl crispiani, the whole thing collapsed quite easy. England then went on and made 151. West Indies then had 220 lead. Brothers said that is nice indeed. With those little pals of mine.

Presenter4:55

Cricket, lovely cricket, the Rhythm Kings recounting the West Indies Test success in nineteen fifty seven. So Bill Morris, you were born and brought up in the village of Mispah in the parish of Manchester in the county of Middlesex.

Bill Morris5:07

I have some funny names there.

Presenter5:08

Yeah. But the sun shone there almost.

Bill Morris5:10

That's right.

Presenter5:11

And everybody looked out for everybody else.

Bill Morris5:14

Yes, it's it's a small community, a very small village, and uh everybody knew everybody. Um every single adult in that village had a right to discipline you and they did. But they also had a right, a moral right which they exercise to protect you and to defend you and to look after you. So if I'm home from school and if my parents was away looking after the goats and the cows, I had no problems. I just go next door and I'd be looked after, I'd be watered, I'd be fed, I'd be cared for and I'd be sent home at the appropriate time.

Presenter5:49

So it was a sort of rural community. Everybody had a small holding.

Bill Morris5:51

There

Bill Morris5:53

Yes, indeed.

Presenter5:54

And did you help each other on those as well?

Bill Morris5:56

Oh, yes. Uh we had no great uh mechanical uh aids to till the land or anything like that. So the villagers the men in the villages used to get together and uh they would work out uh a a rotor and um they would uh barter their labor.

Presenter6:13

And was there any kind of political dimension to life there at all? Was there any kind of union or beyond this kind of workers' cooperative that you described?

Bill Morris6:22

Yes, it was. You know, we had parish councillors. Was your father?

Presenter6:26

Was your father active in all of this?

Bill Morris6:28

He he was more active in what was known as the Jamaica Agricultural Society and of course there's a political dimension to that. And it really meant that we were the centerpiece for distribution. For example, when fertilizers and chemicals came from England or the United States, it came to our house.

Presenter6:49

But as a child it was women really who dominated your life. Your mother, as I understand it, was quite quite a a dominating force. And and if not her mother, your grandmother.

Bill Morris6:57

Yes, my grandmother was a very, very special

Bill Morris7:01

Caribbean woman. She was the centerpiece of the family. She had ten children, but she was, you know, she would wake up at five o'clock in the morning, she would get the produce ready, she would get the donkey padded up, go off to the market, sold her produce and bought other things that we needed. And my grandfather would just be getting up to go out to the field. So, you know, she was a wonderful, wonderful woman.

Presenter7:30

Tell me about your second

Bill Morris7:31

But of course, women in my life has been really great. I want to

Bill Morris7:38

I have a little bit of self-indulgence here, I think. But I want to dedicate it to my grandmother, my mother, my deceased wife, Minetta, and of course my current partner, Eileen. And I must mention my granddaughter, Yuna, but just to ensure that peace is kept in the Morris's household in Manchester, I have to mention my grandson, Rohan, as well.

Speaker 38:04

It's surely not his brain.

Presenter8:08

Uh

Speaker 38:08

Bye. Uh

Presenter8:09

Uh

Presenter8:09

Yeah.

Presenter8:16

I love

Presenter8:19

Because he is wonderful.

Presenter8:24

Because he's your bird.

Presenter8:32

Cleolaine singing Bill, the song from the musical Showbirt, a real bit of self-indulgence as well.

Presenter8:38

So life was good, comfortable, secure and contented. And and then one day in nineteen fifty three, you'd have been, what, fifteen, your father died. I mean, it was completely unexpected, wasn't it?

Bill Morris8:48

Yes, it it was just an absolute shock.

Presenter8:51

And your mother felt she couldn't cope with it all it was all just too much for her to run, as I understand it.

Bill Morris8:57

Well, that's right. I mean

Bill Morris8:59

There was almost a sort of unspoken division of responsibility in the home. So when my father died so unexpectedly, my mother knew very, very little, if any, thing about all the administration of government property, government money and all that. Anyway, she managed as best she could. And when it was cleared up to everybody's satisfaction, she decided that she needed a break. She just couldn't go cope to start picking things up again. So she decided to take a trip to England three, four months away, and then she would come back to Jamaica.

Presenter9:35

But then she did decide to settle and she sent for you, much against your will. You came, and you took the bus up to Birmingham, where the family was. What did you it must have felt like a completely alien environment to you?

Bill Morris9:39

Yeah.

Bill Morris9:47

Well, my mother was waiting for me and um we travelled and she was explaining how things work here uh and the culture. Uh but I was to see it for myself, because this was at night. I was to see it for myself the following morning. And I I woke up very early because I wanted to see where I am and I'd heard so much about England and uh there was a sense of anticipation and great expectation for me. And when I drew the curtain back

Bill Morris10:17

I saw no trees. There were no trees. There were no greenery. There was a s a lot of houses. They've got these little square things on the top. And the whole architecture was totally different. The environment was quite alien.

Presenter10:32

Little square things, chimneys.

Bill Morris10:33

She absolutely, yes. I've never seen one before. I felt like going back to bed. But my mother says, Well, this is it.

Bill Morris10:43

You know, we're here.

Presenter10:45

And how were you treated by the indigenous population? Were they welcoming or were they suspicious, wary?

Bill Morris10:50

I remember where we lived, right on the corner of Birchfield Road and Heathfield Road in Birmingham. There was a confectionery shop and um as youngsters we used to go in and as soon as we walked in the owner of the shop just disappeared into the back rooms and we genuinely thought that she had some sort of illness, mental illness perhaps. It was only having

Bill Morris11:15

talk to people and share an experience, we found that she had an inbuilt aversion to black people. Some of my colleagues didn't really mind because some people paid and some people didn't. But

Presenter11:26

Handful of dolly mixtures.

Bill Morris11:28

Yes, of course. Don't ask me what I did too.

Presenter11:33

Record number three.

Bill Morris11:34

It is a Bob Marley. Bob Marley was born in Jamaica. He gave international recognition to reggae. I had to be convinced, I have to tell you, that meant my son sitting me down. He said, listen, I did. He said, you've learned, and I have, and now I'm a convert.

Speaker 111:58

Yeah.

Speaker 112:00

Push up front out of break

Speaker 112:04

This love is this love, it's this love, it's this love that I'm feeling.

Speaker 112:12

Is this love, is this love, is this love, is this love I don't feel like?

Presenter12:23

Bob Marley and the Wailers and Is This Love? What was the first thing you bought when you once you got some money in your pocket, Bill?

Bill Morris12:30

I bought a bicycle, which was uh a real big investment. I was mo I was no mobile. I had wheels, man, I had wheels.

Bill Morris12:39

But I had to get the gear as well. So there were a lot of teddy boys around, white teddy boys, and it was a sort of anything that you lot can do, we can do better. So I went and bought a suit. It was a drain pipe suit, and it had the velvet colour as well. So if you can imagine a group of black teddy boys walking around hands worth. But I was determined to be a teenager in the fullest sense and enjoy the environment and assimilate to the fashion of the day and just be part and parcel of what was happening.

Speaker 313:06

Uh

Presenter13:12

Of course.

Presenter13:16

You became, as we said, an active trade unionist. I think you were a shop steward by the age of twenty five or something, weren't you? How unusual was that for a black man to do that to want to pursue that kind of course? And how easy was it? Could you easily get elected?

Bill Morris13:31

Well, after I was pushed into this task of representing my colleagues, the shop steward came back from illness and decided that he didn't want to be the representative any longer, so we decided that we would do it on a rotor basis. And I drew the short straw and I was then elected. I think I'm still the shop steward because we've never had another election for anybody else to take their turn.

Presenter13:58

The f

Presenter13:59

But you're still the only black man, you know, as a national leader today. You were presumably the only black man then who was active in trade unionism.

Bill Morris14:06

Well, one of the cross that I bear or indeed the

Bill Morris14:11

Privilege that I have. I'm not sure whether it's good or bad. Nearly everything that I've achieved in my union, I am the first. I was the first black person to be elected to the General Executive Council of the Union, which is the governing body. I was the first black full-time officer to be appointed. I was the first black national officer, and so it goes on. Now, I'm not sure whether that's good or bad, but you know, for my sins, I've never really worried about the next charge.

Presenter14:36

Hmm.

Presenter14:42

But what it means is every time people uh talk to you or write about you, they mention your colour.

Bill Morris14:45

who write about you.

Bill Morris14:48

That's right.

Presenter14:48

I I wonder if you mind that people always mention that you're black?

Bill Morris14:53

I I only have a mind on one occasion.

Bill Morris14:56

That was when I offered myself for the office of General Secretary because every time I was interviewed, I had to use at least, you know, 30, 40 good seconds of soundbite time to explain why I was running. Was I going to be, if you like, the black general secretary? And I have to say no, I'm not going to be the black general secretary. I'm going to be the general secretary who's black. And I had to justify my candidacy.

Presenter15:20

Black.

Presenter15:26

But back in those days of in the Midlands in the fifties and sixties, I mean, this was before the Race Relations Act, you know, people were advertising their houses for sale and putting no blacks on the board, weren't they? How much did you suffer from that kind of racial prejudice then?

Bill Morris15:40

Well, it was

Bill Morris15:41

Racism around. We understood it in those early days, the Caribbean community, not so much as racism in the contemporary understanding now or indeed discrimination. We just said that there was a colour bar which was at work, as blunt as that. There was no sophistication about it. There were signs which say no black, no Irish, no dogs, and that's not a cliche, that's a reality. And I have to tell you that when I applied for my first post in my union, I was not successful, and I was subsequently told by people who

Speaker 115:55

Hmm.

Bill Morris16:15

were part of the committee doing the examination, that I did extremely well. I was the best candidate, but the general view was that the Union was not ready for a black officer.

Presenter16:27

Record number four.

Bill Morris16:28

I used to be a regular visitor to the Durham Miners Gala, the big meeting, 200,000 people. Labour leaders used to attend and take the salute, so to speak, at a working class event at the County Hotel in Durham, a tremendous moving. And the bands used to come and they would stop at the County Hotel and they would play pieces of music and march on. One piece of music which I heard there, which moved me a lot, is a piece called Gressford. And Gressford represented a colour in North Wales, where in 1934 there was a tragic incident of 262 miners perished in an underground explosion.

Bill Morris17:12

I want to remember those men.

Bill Morris17:15

who died, but I also believe that the colliery industry deserves to be recognized as part of a greater contribution to economic development in our country.

Presenter17:59

The Grimethorpe Colliery Band, directed by George Thompson, playing Gressford, written by Robert Saint in memory of the miners who perished down the pit in nineteen thirty four. And memories for you, Bill, of the Durham Miners, Gala. Um I think I'm writing saying Neil Kinnock was the last Labour leader to attend it, wasn't he?

Bill Morris18:16

That's right, I was there, I was on the platform on the day.

Presenter18:19

And to that extent, I suppose you could say it does symbolise the break between old and new labour, doesn't it?

Bill Morris18:26

I think that's a a a fair comment. There was a it was a a symbolic moment when the labor leader uh left the platform and no labor leader has ever returned to that platform.

Presenter18:40

Does that I mean, does one infer from that that you are old labor then, not new?

Bill Morris18:44

I disregard the labels, I think, and just deals with the practical politics on a day-to-day basis.

Presenter18:50

We can't disregard new labour, can we?

Bill Morris18:52

No, I said I disregard the labels, the labels. I think I judge and I want to be judged not on the basis of labels but on the basis of achievement, and that's how I judge the government.

Presenter19:03

But i when um you were challenged for your job in nineteen ninety five by Jack Dromey, the the husband of Harriet Harmon, it was known that in that it was said privately Tony Blair supported him. Now, he wouldn't have done that if he'd believed you were on side with New Labour, would he?

Bill Morris19:22

Well, let me say that

Bill Morris19:24

The TNG had then a million members. I have no knowledge in respect of who supported whom. What I do know is that the overwhelming majority supported me because I won. And I think that's what's important.

Presenter19:38

But did it hurt you that that Tony Blair was probably supporting somebody else?

Bill Morris19:43

I have never seen any evidence of Tony Bleer or indeed anybody else supporting Jack Romey. Jack Romey had his supporters and so did Bill Morris.

Presenter19:53

How often do you talk to the Prime Minister these days?

Bill Morris19:56

The relationship is a very, very open and transparent one. I'm a senior member of the TUC General Council and the TUC General Council senior members have regular meetings with the Prime Minister.

Presenter20:08

But on a personal level, I mean, do you ring him up? Do you talk to him like you know m

Presenter20:12

In the past, people in your position as General Secretary of the TNG would have spoken regularly to a Labour Prime Minister, wouldn't they?

Bill Morris20:18

Oh, I have access to to the Prime Minister and indeed to all ministers in the Treasury in every single political portfolio.

Presenter20:27

But you can ring them up and they take your call.

Bill Morris20:28

Oh yes indeed, and uh they return calls too. But let me say that this is an inclusive government. This is a government which is governing for Britain. I have no aspiration to govern the country and there's a very clear distinction of Labour here. The Prime Ministers run the country and Bill Morris runs the TNG.

Presenter20:49

And indeed beyond that, you've been at pains to point out that you want your union to be independent of the government.

Bill Morris20:53

I do not believe that trade unions should be an extension of government. How else can you stand up and argue for the independence and argue for the policies within your organization?

Presenter21:06

But the implication is that you don't trust the government and that you want to reserve your right to challenge it.

Bill Morris21:13

The implication is that there there is no cosy deal, there's no pre-stitch up, there is a healthy democracy at work, the government has got to govern for the whole country, and I have to lead for all my members. And not every single one of my members are dyed in the wool Labour Party supporters.

Presenter21:32

Number 5.

Bill Morris21:33

I met Nigel Kennedy when he was playing at a Labour Party concert. And Nigel, of course, is not just an Aston Villa fan, he's an Aston Villa fanatic. And we discovered pretty quickly that we shared something in common, which is the love of this particular football club. I want to choose Nigel playing Vivaldi. And it is winter.

Presenter23:01

Nigel Kennedy and the English Chamber Orchestra playing part of Winter from Vivaldi's Four Seasons.

Presenter23:06

Um you met and married Minetta, your wife, Bill, quite early on in all of this. Was she a childhood sweetheart?

Bill Morris23:13

Yeah.

Presenter23:13

Your first love?

Bill Morris23:14

First love indeed.

Presenter23:16

She must have been very proud of you.

Bill Morris23:17

She was. She was extremely supportive. But she suffered in a way because her career suffered. Because every time she got promoted, because she rose to be a very senior manager in the National Health Service, managing a budget of in excess of nine million pounds in in her unit, I used to go home and indicate that we were on the move because we moved from Birmingham to Nottingham to Northampton.

Presenter23:43

Because of your job.

Bill Morris23:44

Because of my job, that's right. So her career suffered as a result of my moving.

Presenter23:49

You were you were getting very near the top, of course, in nineteen eighty five. You became uh you were elected Deputy General Secretary. Do you remember going home and telling her about it?

Bill Morris23:58

Yes, yes, and uh we just cried together.

Presenter24:02

She didn't live to see you get to the very top.

Bill Morris24:05

Minette contracted cancer at a very early age, at the age of uh forty-two, and she battled on. She had uh radical mastectomy and she battled on and went back to work. And foolishly on my part, I thought that it was all cured and it was all okay. And despite the fact that she tried to communicate the difficulty of this dreadful disease, I just refused to take it all in and I refused to listen, I refused to have the conversation and reconcile what was inevitable in the end.

Presenter24:41

What are you saying? She knew death was inevitable and and you wouldn't talk about it.

Bill Morris24:44

Yeah.

Bill Morris24:46

I I wouldn't talk about it, no. Uh I first of all I wanted to give her hope, but I was very fearful that she may well be right and um I just wasn't able to to really sit down, talk about it, plan, enjoy the last days that we could have done much more than we we did. And I feel that um a sense of guilt about that, frankly.

Presenter25:20

Next piece of music.

Bill Morris25:22

Um

Bill Morris25:23

My next piece of music.

Bill Morris25:25

Comes from the film Beaches. The story is well known. It was about two women, different lifestyles, and one had a child who suddenly, the one with the child, suddenly found herself dying. And she passed on responsibility for her daughters to her friend. And before Minetta died, her last words almost were, take care of the children and look after yourself. She was for me the wind beneath my wings.

Speaker 126:00

Did you ever know that you're my hero?

Speaker 126:08

And everything I would like to be

Speaker 126:18

Got an ego

Speaker 126:23

You are the winner Ma

Presenter26:29

Bette Midler and Wind Beneath My Wings from the soundtrack of the film Beaches. I mentioned in the introduction bill that these days you preside over a much diminished union, I think about 900,000 members in comparison with what more than two million in the T and G's heyday. It is a shadow of its former self, isn't it? It doesn't have the power, it doesn't have the industrial muscle that it once had, and it's never likely to have it again, is it?

Bill Morris26:52

Well, of course we have lost a significant amount of members. Part of that reflects the restructuring that has taken place in the economy. In the eighties, the great so-called Thatcher years, thirty percent of our manufacturing base just disappeared before our very eyes. But that said, we are effective in what we do because we have new agendas. We promote issues which was unheard of in my day as a shop steward, the environment, for example.

Presenter27:23

The environment. But the nature of it is different. It's a much more.

Bill Morris27:26

Did you mind

Presenter27:27

It's almost what you've been talking about, this sort of West Indian caring culture. It's a much more caring union. You set up twenty-four-hour helplines for your members to bring up if they've got a problem.

Speaker 127:30

Yeah.

Speaker 127:33

We got

Bill Morris27:34

That's right.

Bill Morris27:37

That's right.

Presenter27:37

It's very altruistic. It's a completely different role, isn't it?

Bill Morris27:42

The the role is is in essence the same. It's still about collective bargaining. It's still about getting a relationship between the employer and the worker on a more equal basis. So fundamentally it hasn't changed.

Presenter27:54

So fundamentally it hasn't changed.

Bill Morris28:03

We have to do that sometimes, but that's not our main focus. We have to.

Presenter28:07

And indeed the danger is if you do do that, the employer says, Okay, well, I'll pack up the factory here and I'll take it to another country.

Bill Morris28:09

Do that.

Bill Morris28:13

There is always that danger, but that's not where we're coming from. We have made a very conscious and cultural shift in terms of how we promote trade unionism, how we promote the interest of our members in the long term. We do believe in partnership. We do believe in prosperity. What we do argue about is that our members should get a fair share. But we have put new issues on the agenda. We've talked a lot about equalities, the equality issue. Equal opportunities is a big issue. The environment is a big issue. Training is a big issue. Skills development. All these are issues which weren't trade union issues before. They were somebody else's. Now they're very much part and parcel of trade unionism.

Presenter29:01

But if it's ultimately a partnership, as you say, and obviously the modern management respects its workforce, it regards it as an asset, not something to be exploited, then ultimately, surely the union becomes redundant. As management gets better, ideally that's what you would like, that management is so good you don't need to fight against it.

Bill Morris29:03

But

Speaker 129:11

Absolutely.

Bill Morris29:22

Oh, I wish that was true. Some of them are more understanding, but out there you still have some pretty uh draconian type bosses there. We experienced um a dispute, a very high profile dispute, just over a year ago. British Airways. And what was the mantra of the day? Uh we will sack them, we will sue them. Cruel, harsh and hard.

Presenter29:37

British Airways.

Bill Morris29:45

So long as you have bosses who behave in those ways, trade unionism will still have a role to play.

Presenter29:51

My code number seven.

Bill Morris29:53

I often take myself off to a little theatre, the b brainchild of Johnny Dunkworth and Clear Lane. They've built it up over many years. I'm a very big admirer, too, of Ben Okri. Ben is an artist and a poet, and he's wrote what I believe is his best poem, which is called African Elegy. Jackie Dunkworth, which is Johnny and Clear's daughter, has very skillfully set African Elegy to music, and I just would wish to share that with your listeners.

Presenter30:34

We are the men.

Presenter30:37

That God may

Presenter30:42

Yeah.

Bill Morris30:42

To taste the bitter fruit of time

Presenter30:50

We are the precious, and one day are suffering.

Presenter30:57

Will turn into the wonders of the earth

Presenter31:03

Fields of Blue with Jackie Dankworth singing an African elegy, words by Ben Ocre. You're um just sixty, Bill, sixty but not flagging, in charge of a a huge organization, leading a huge organization of twelve hundred people. And what is, you know, in all of this? What's the happiest

Speaker 131:12

Yeah.

Presenter31:21

Point in any working day for you.

Bill Morris31:23

That's very easy. The great moment is when I cross the threshold of uh the house where I live in Hemmelhempstead, close the door, I feel safe, I feel protected, I'm here at home, they can't get hold of me now. That's how I feel.

Presenter31:43

And if we take you away from all of that and plonk you on a on a desert island, will you manage to make a decent fist of it, do you think? Or will you go under?

Bill Morris31:52

Well, it depends really and um I'm very odded in terms of my life work-wise. I'm very unstructured uh in terms of my life socially and at home and uh it depends whether I saw the desert island as home or work. So I think I want to do a deal. Can I commute please, Monday to Friday on the desert island and uh home on Saturday and Sunday.

Presenter32:17

Certainly not. Tell me about your last record.

Bill Morris32:20

My last record comes from two trips that I made to South Africa since apartheid was was ended. And I was taken to a place where there were trains and carriages. And it was told to me that those trains used to transport workers from the townships and from Quasiland and other places in southern Africa into Johannesburg to work in the coal mines and to work in the gold mines.

Speaker 332:51

There's a train that comes from Namibia and Malawi.

Speaker 332:56

There's a train that comes from Zambia and Zimbabwe.

Speaker 333:00

This train carries young and old African men who are conscripted to come and work on contract in the gold and mineral mines of Johannesburg and its surrounding metropolis. Sixteen hours or more a day for almost no

Speaker 333:18

Down in the belly of the

Presenter33:21

Hugh Masicala and Stimella Coal Train. If you could only take one of those eight records, Bill, which one would it be?

Bill Morris33:29

It's not a difficult choice actually. It's an easy choice.

Bill Morris33:33

Wind beneath my wings.

Presenter33:36

What about your book?

Bill Morris33:37

Again, this one was easy because on one of my trips to South Africa I did the tourist bit out to Robin Island and that evokes a mental picture of what life was like on Robin Island for Nelson Mandela. But having met the man on a number of occasions, I was struck by his patience, I was struck by his forgiveness, everything about him. And therefore Long Walk to Freedom by Nelson Madelea, the autobiography will be my book.

Presenter34:15

And what about your luxury?

Bill Morris34:16

Ah, luxury.

Bill Morris34:17

I've now concluded that the reason why I've never really made it as a cricketer is because my bat was wrong. So I'm ordering, Sue Please, a long handle, mature willow, a six pound in weight cricket bat, to be signed by three of the great cricketers who played in that 1957 Test, the late Sir Frank Worrell, Clyde Walcott and Everton Weeks, famously known as the Three W's. I'll have a lot of time to practice my cover drives, my undrives, my square cuts and hook shots. Um but then that's a dream, isn't it? But what else do you do on a desert island but dream?

Presenter35:01

Bill Morris, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Bill Morris35:05

Thank you.

Presenter35:13

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts please visit bbc.co dot uk slash radio four.