Sian Phillips

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety seven, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:32

My castaway this week is an actress. Currently to be seen in the West End in a play about Marlena Dietrich, she's proof that age need be no enemy of either elegance or beauty. Brought up in rural Wales, she won the National Eistedford when she was eleven and worked for the BBC as a child actress. She went to Rada, where she won a gold medal, and then, on the brink of what seemed a brilliant career, she met and married Peter O'Toole.

Presenter0:58

Only when that marriage was coming to an end nearly twenty years later was her true talent beginning to flower again, with her portrayal of the evil Livia in the B B C's I Claudius, and as Beth Morgan in How Green Was My Valley.

Presenter1:12

Now in her sixties she's arrived, she says, at where she really wanted to be when she was a little girl. She is Shawn Phillips.

Presenter1:20

But it's been a a long and tortuous route, Sean.

Sian Phillips1:23

Yeah.

Sian Phillips1:23

Yes, not tortured, but torturous, yes, I guess so.

Presenter1:26

But where is it that you've arrived? I mean, obviously you're a a respected and renowned actress, but but when you say arrived where where I really wanted to be, I sus maybe something different.

Sian Phillips1:36

Well, when I was a little girl, I had a picture in my mind of this this grown up lady um living in a very nice uh place, a house or a flat, in a town, and acting all the time. But there weren't any other people in this flat, and I it was pretty odd for a little girl, I suppose. I had no ambition at all to get married.

Presenter1:53

I have

Sian Phillips1:56

or to have children. I just wanted to be an actress and have a very nice life.

Presenter2:02

So you didn't dream about being married or having to does that mean when you did you weren't very good at it or

Sian Phillips2:07

Well

Presenter2:08

But you weren't fulfilling your dreams, obviously.

Sian Phillips2:10

Uh no. I mean, I'm jolly glad I did it. I wouldn't be without my daughters for anything in the world. And being married, which I have been all my life really until recently, was very, very interesting and and lovely. A lot of it was absolutely marvellous. And I was I was very much in love with with Otul and we had some wonderful, wonderful times.

Presenter2:30

But what it also seems to be about this business of what you want it to be is this sense of freedom, isn't it?

Sian Phillips2:35

Of being in

Presenter2:35

Of being entirely your own mistress.

Sian Phillips2:38

Yes, yes, that is what I wanted and it has taken me all my life to get there and now

Sian Phillips2:44

I seem to have got there and I'm touching wood even as I speak. I am really happier than I have been since I was about fifteen or sixteen.

Presenter2:50

I am

Presenter2:52

When did you first dream of of all of this? Of being on the stage? What woke woke it all up in?

Sian Phillips2:57

Well, I I know that I first decided I wanted to be an actress when I was about six, because I wrote it down and my mother kept this little rather serious pronouncement. And also, around about that time I had been to a theater in Swansea.

Sian Phillips3:11

And I had seen my first show, which was a pantomime, and my grandmother, who was a very, very strict religious woman,

Sian Phillips3:19

and a farmer and had never been to a theatre ever and rather disapproved of it. But she and I, the two ends of the family spectrum, were captivated. We came out starry-eyed. I just wanted to be one of those chorus girls in the fishnet tights, kicking up, I thought, both legs at the same time, which led to a rather bad accident later at home. And she just came out saying in Welsh, of course,'cause she was practically monoglot Welsh, and she said

Sian Phillips3:45

Oh, she said, I have never seen skins like that on girls before beautiful, beautiful skins. And of course they were wearing horrible orange pancake about an inch thick. But she was just enchanted. So was I.

Sian Phillips3:59

Yeah.

Presenter3:59

Tell me about your first record.

Sian Phillips4:00

My first record is the uh a trio from Cosy by Mozart.

Presenter4:06

And why do you want to?

Sian Phillips4:06

Well, I'm a pretty cheerful person anyway, but I find Mozart is my my quickest access really to high spirits and and good humor and

Sian Phillips4:17

Well, like most people, I suppose, I love Mozart.

Speaker 44:30

Oh brain!

Speaker 44:33

Mostly all

Speaker 44:35

Uh

Speaker 45:08

I see all the things that I've been doing.

Speaker 45:16

All the sweet

Presenter5:21

Part of the trio Suave Silvento from Act one of Mozart's Cousi Fan Tutti, sung by Pilar Lorenga, Therese Berganza, and Gabrielle Becchier, with the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Presenter5:34

Tell me then, Sean Phillips, more about this Welsh background of yours. Teetotal, God fearing, strict.

Sian Phillips5:40

Yes, it was. It was a lot of fun as well. I don't remember laughing so much ever since in any kind of funny. Oh, really? No, it was it was terribly funny. I was thinking the other day that my childhood actually is further away than it is chronologically because living in the countryside at that time

Sian Phillips6:00

Um

Sian Phillips6:01

was really like living

Sian Phillips6:04

Almost in Victorian Wales, I think, because it has changed so much now, it is almost unrecognisable to me. I go back and I hardly recognize places and

Presenter6:13

This is rural southwest beyond the mining valleys.

Sian Phillips6:15

This is rural southwest. Beyond the mining valleys. Yes, it is. I mean, there were little mines dotted around, but basically it was rural. It was farming.

Presenter6:20

Basic

Presenter6:22

And pretty a pretty frugal life.

Sian Phillips6:24

Oh, it was very frugal, but also very rich. I mean, people children were spoiled rotten. They were expected to work very hard, but the the love, the care and the attention they got, not only from their own parents, but from the staff of every single school in the neighbourhood, and also from the whole community

Presenter6:24

Oh, it was

Presenter6:42

Uh

Sian Phillips6:42

And from the chapels, from the churches, was incredible. And everybody knew everybody. Everybody knew everybody. But I had the impression that your parents were very strict with you. Yes, they were, because I had a sister who died before I was born. And I never actually discussed this i in any detail with my mother, and I wish I had before she died, but

Sian Phillips7:03

I I can I can understand now how very anxious they were that I should not be spoiled, particularly since I became a performer when I was very young.

Presenter7:12

So were they holding you back or pushing you forward? Beth

Sian Phillips7:15

both at the same time, which I used to find very confusing. They sent out very conflicting messages to me. My mother was, I think, very happy that I was ambitious and wanted to get on. They both wanted me to get on and get out, but then all parents did, because it was a disadvantaged background at that time. They just pulled out of a deep depression. Looking back on it, they were incredibly dignified. They were very well behaved. I don't remember anyone complaining. I don't remember anyone

Sian Phillips7:44

saying they wanted things they couldn't have, because in fact they did provide everybody with everything they wanted. I mean the place was awash with books, music, uh dance, choirs, um

Sian Phillips7:56

Trips abroad I mean, how they did it I will never, ever know.

Sian Phillips8:00

But you are also quite a sick

Presenter8:01

Yeah.

Sian Phillips8:02

Yes, ill. I was ill nearly all the time until I was about twelve when I at ten when I went to grammar school.

Presenter8:02

I was

Presenter8:08

What was wrong with you?

Sian Phillips8:09

Everything you can imagine. I I just had terrible skin problems. I had uh scarlet fever twice, which was in those days a life threatening illness.

Sian Phillips8:19

appendicitis, broken ankles, broken limbs, measles, chicken pox. I had most things twice for some reason. So I just stayed at home and ran wild. My mother was a teacher, but she didn't teach me. I don't know why she didn't teach me, but she didn't. But I just read everything that there was in the house, so

Sian Phillips8:36

By the time I had to sit the dreaded scholarship, um I was a year younger than than the other people, but I I didn't have a problem really.

Presenter8:45

And you've got a hundred percent in English and and nil in arithmetic.

Sian Phillips8:48

All in arithmetic.

Sian Phillips8:50

Which was unheard of, apparently.

Presenter8:53

Record number two, tell me about that.

Sian Phillips8:54

Oh, well, Ella Fitzgerald singing, she could have been singing anything, but in this instance I'm going to have her singing Love Is Here to Stay.

Speaker 49:04

Oh, my dear, our love is here to stay. Together we're going a long, long way.

Speaker 49:25

In time the rockies may crumble, depralter may tumble.

Presenter9:33

Ella FitzGerald and Love is Here to Stay, by George and Ira Gershwin. So when you were eleven, Shawn, you won the Eisterford for recitation?

Sian Phillips9:42

Yes, it was a dramatic recitation between an old man and his other spirit, which is a very suitable thing for a young child of eleven, isn't it? So anyway, I did this dramatic recitation, playing two old men.

Sian Phillips9:54

And the B B C picked me up on the field, as it were, and Nan Davis, who was a producer at Bangor, took me to the studio, and I repeated my performance and and started a broadcasting career.

Presenter10:06

The broad

Presenter10:07

Isn't it the case that your head teacher sent for an actor who was around at the time to have a look at you?

Sian Phillips10:11

Well yes yes, he d he sent for Hugh Griffith actually to come and see me because he thought I should probably go into the theatre. And Hugh came and tried to persuade my parents to let me go to Ronto when I was sixteen, which was a very early age. They were horrified by the idea and said get lost, you know, and they weren't a bit impressed by that.

Sian Phillips10:31

So I did in fact stay in school.

Speaker 410:34

Yeah.

Sian Phillips10:34

And I loved school. I liked it very much. I wanted to go to rather desperately, but but I did also love school.

Speaker 410:34

And I

Presenter10:40

It it's still it's quite difficult to get a a handle, as it were, on your background in the sense because one has this impression that it was very strict and highly moral and all those things, a lot of pressure to get educated and so on.

Speaker 110:47

Yeah.

Speaker 110:48

What you think?

Presenter10:51

But there's you uh you seem to have been quite a rebellious child, in a sense.

Sian Phillips10:56

Well, I I was not on the surface in any way rebellious. I think this is a rather Welsh characteristic. I hope nobody minds my saying this, but I think because we have lived so long, so near to England, that we're we're a bit subversive in a very quiet way, you know, we tend we've kept our language, for example, which is difficult.

Sian Phillips11:13

but only by going underground in a way and I did exactly that. I stopped arguing with anybody about what I wanted to do, but I never ever doubted in my mind that I would do it.

Presenter11:23

But you were your own person. I mean

Sian Phillips11:25

Yes. But I d I did conform to almost everything that was required of me. But I was working with adults all the time, so I was leading a quite sophisticated life for a child really, and travelling on my own.

Presenter11:34

Yeah.

Presenter11:37

But then later, much later, you took home this this glamorous, high living, heavy drinking Irishman called Peter O'Toole. What on earth did this teetotal, frugal family of yours make of him?

Sian Phillips11:48

They just adored him. They absolutely loved him. I mean, they may have been.

Sian Phillips11:53

teetotal, though they're not now then, but they were also um very fun loving. I mean, there was a lot of fun going on, and of course, if you wanted fun, he was the right person to provide it.

Presenter12:04

But he was so different from the music.

Sian Phillips12:05

Yes, he was. He was like some kind of uh uh exotic bird, you know, that had landed in a nest of sparrows, I suppose.

Presenter12:14

But they were bewitched by him.

Sian Phillips12:16

Yes, they were, as I was.

Sian Phillips12:18

Chord number three.

Sian Phillips12:20

Um this is Barbara Cook, who is a friend of mine, and this is Barbara singing when she was a girl. It's one of her early Angenou performances, and I listened to her last year at Drury Lane doing a two and a half hour concert, and her voice is still exactly the same, it's still a girl's voice. It's wonderful.

Speaker 412:37

Bells on the hill, but I never heard them ringing.

Speaker 412:46

No, I never heard them at all.

Speaker 412:52

Oh, there was you

Speaker 412:57

There were birds in the sky, but I never saw

Presenter13:07

Barbara Cook singing Till There Was You from The Music Man.

Presenter13:10

Um you were a young woman in a hurry, really, weren't you? Because you went off to Cardiff to read English, and then you read philosophy as well, and then you were moonlighting as a B B C announcer, and you were determined to pack it all in.

Sian Phillips13:17

Poland

Sian Phillips13:22

Yes, I was. Yes, I I think for about three years that's the hardest I've ever worked actually, because I was leading a a Welsh Arts Council company. They were trying to establish a national theatre, so I was on tour with a couple of plays as well, and I was on the B B C Rep as an actress, and I was also their relief announcer.

Sian Phillips13:41

And um I started interviewing actually and uh

Sian Phillips13:45

They they were they did uh say that they would maybe like to groom me to be a sort of an anchor woman, and uh I was really keen on the job. I I loved the idea. I liked doing it.

Presenter13:53

I like doing it.

Sian Phillips13:55

Well, it was a a a mutual friend of ours, Herbert Davis from the Western Mail, actually, who had been directing me in place, who said, What are you doing? You have to go now.

Sian Phillips14:05

And get out of here and and he coached me for my rado audition and sent me to London and you landed.

Presenter14:10

And you landed on your feet.

Sian Phillips14:10

On your feet. You loved it.

Presenter14:13

Yes, yes. So you were all set and then you won the gold medal, the Bancroft gold medal and so on. Lots of offers of contracts.

Sian Phillips14:16

Bankros

Sian Phillips14:19

Yes.

Presenter14:20

Work was not going to be a problem. Poised on the brink of a great career.

Sian Phillips14:22

Poised on the bring

Presenter14:25

And you fell in love with Peter O'Toole. Instant attraction.

Presenter14:28

Yeah.

Sian Phillips14:28

Yeah.

Presenter14:29

Yeah.

Sian Phillips14:29

Yes, it was, yes.

Presenter14:30

Hmm.

Sian Phillips14:30

Yes. And is it true that he's

Presenter14:36

But is it true he did a complete makeover, as it's now called on you, throughout all your

Sian Phillips14:41

Frogs? Yes, yes, he did. Um he I d had been I was under contract to a millionaire and I w I had so I had an income whether I worked or not.

Sian Phillips14:52

and they sent me down the King's Road to buy some clothes. So I came back with this wonderful expensive wardrobe. Well I met Otul very shortly afterwards, and he took one look at all these clothes, and said,'This is ridiculous you look like your mother' which one did in those days,' and he threw them all out the window.

Sian Phillips15:07

And he said you should wear things like this and he gave me a pair of his cotton trousers and a and a top. So I think we were the first sort of unisex dressed couple in London, probably, before the swinging sixties actually started.

Presenter15:19

And then he asked you to marry him.

Sian Phillips15:22

He didn't actually ask me to marry him, he asked me if I would have his children, and I thought I was so flattered that I said yes.

Sian Phillips15:31

And we did marry, but um

Sian Phillips15:33

That was what he said.

Presenter15:34

And is it true that Sybil Thorndyke and Flora Robson advised you against marriage?

Sian Phillips15:38

Well, yes, the the people that I was under contract to, and the people uh who had been kind of grooming me rather for three or four years, said this is the end of your career, you can't do this. So various luminaries were wheeled out to take me to lunch to explain that this was not going to be possible, that my career would not survive this.

Presenter15:56

But you are a young woman in law.

Sian Phillips15:57

Of course I was. And also I I was convinced that I would survive. I thought, you know, we could become a partnership or

Sian Phillips16:04

I don't know. I I had stars in my eyes, I suppose, and it all seemed wonderful to me.

Presenter16:08

Because uh it was uh not very long after, was it, that he did Lawrence of Arabia and T V.

Sian Phillips16:13

It was

Sian Phillips16:14

He became a a huge international movie star with a great big retinue of people around him that protected him, and naturally I was included in in the the circle of support, as it were.

Presenter16:30

Let's pause for another record.

Sian Phillips16:32

Oh, this is a record we used to love actually from that period, I remember. It's it's the Dubliners.

Sian Phillips16:38

And I remember when we were when he was a huge international movie star, we used to live in Hampstead and everyone used to want to come and visit him, of course.

Sian Phillips16:49

Always eventually the Irish music would be put on and it was very, very funny to see kind of rather grand, rather sedate, glamorous people letting their hair down, because I defy anyone not to want to dance when this record is on, and I've seen some very, very unexpected people doing impromptu dances to this song.

Presenter17:40

The Holy Ground performed by the Dubliners. So you you subjugated yourself to a tool your and your career.

Presenter17:47

Um, you call him O'Toole, I think. I know, I don't know why, but I've always called him O'Toole. It's intimacy, not hostility, is it?

Sian Phillips17:55

Oh, it is no, it's not hostility.

Presenter17:59

But you must have seen during that time all sorts of parts going to actresses that you coveted.

Sian Phillips18:05

Yes. I mean, I had to turn down a lot of parts that I wanted to play. And I did realize that the one bad th really bad thing that could happen to me was to become bitter or jealous or envious. So that was the one thing I did not become.

Presenter18:20

And to be fair, O'Toole has credited you with with being his fortress. You know, he has said that you were his centrepiece. He's written in his autobiography, you know, I measure everything from there. The centrepiece is Sharon and the king.

Sian Phillips18:31

Well, it it was valuable to me too. It was a great experience actually. And it was it was a very it was a very deep relationship. So why did you leave him?

Sian Phillips18:42

I'd think it had run its course.

Sian Phillips18:44

I wanted something.

Sian Phillips18:47

More, I think, in the relation. I think we had got stuck in certain attitudes that were very difficult to break. I mean, he is a very independent person. He had been very ill, and I'd nursed him through a very uh uh an illness which could have been a terminal. And I'd I'd really broken my heart at the time because I was afraid that he was that she was going to die. And I, for some reason, came out of it different. I can't quite explain it, but I wanted to move forward in

Sian Phillips19:18

The relationship, but I could see that it was going to go back to being exactly the same as it had been before the illness.

Sian Phillips19:25

I suddenly thought, No, I I don't think this is right. I think it was I think it was right for him too, actually. I think he took a step forward.

Presenter19:33

Although he says in his autobiography that you left him when he needed you most.

Sian Phillips19:38

I don't think so. I had he had recovered completely, and he was now proposing to I mean, I would not have left him had he gone on being ill, I would not have left him not i I couldn't have. But it was hard, it wasn't easy.

Presenter19:52

And you finally divorced in in nineteen seventy nine. How many times have you seen him since? You both live in London.

Sian Phillips19:54

Yeah.

Sian Phillips19:57

I know, but oddly enough, London is a big place, you know. I think we met once in the street by chance, and once at one of my daughter's performances by chance.

Presenter20:05

But how do you feel when that happens?

Sian Phillips20:07

I

Sian Phillips20:08

I d I I I think you're taken aback for a moment, but I I didn't feel anything really, nothing special.

Presenter20:15

Hmm. Never go back.

Sian Phillips20:17

No, no.

Presenter20:20

Record number five.

Sian Phillips20:21

It's um I spend a lot of time round at the house of my musical director, Gabin Amos, and he was playing this one day when I went in.

Sian Phillips20:29

And at first I thought, What is he playing? It's Steve Reichs.

Sian Phillips20:33

Eight lines, it's called and at first you think it's the same thing over and over again, but it becomes fascinating as you listen to it, because in fact it changes texture every so often, but you can hardly tell when the textures change. How they do it, I don't know, but I am I'm uh lost in admiration for them.

Speaker 120:55

Yeah.

Speaker 420:58

Uh

Presenter21:53

Part of Steve Reich's Eight Lines played by Celisty, New York.

Presenter21:57

So, Sharon Phillips, you you walked away after nearly twenty years, married to a a pretty rich man, um, without you said so much as a teaspoon. How how did you know you could hack it?

Sian Phillips22:09

I didn't. I really didn't. But I've done this a few times in my life. I don't mean in those circumstances, but I d I don't find it that difficult to do.

Presenter22:17

What new beginnings?

Sian Phillips22:18

I quite like a new beginning. I did not know if I could hack it at all, because my confidence was not at its highest, I must say.

Speaker 122:18

Uh

Presenter22:18

Uh

Speaker 122:18

Uh

Sian Phillips22:26

But um

Sian Phillips22:28

Well, I just thought I'd see how I went. And fortunately, I had a lot of repeat fees coming in.

Presenter22:33

And you won a couple of BAFTAs at the time, but the two things I mentioned in the introduction, you get I, Claudius, and How Claudius, my value.

Sian Phillips22:36

To examination

Sian Phillips22:39

Yes, my family. Yes, I did. So I was able to buy a house for a start.

Sian Phillips22:45

And that was big enough, you know, for the whole family, should it be necessary.

Sian Phillips22:50

I just went to work and I think I overworked actually. I did everything because I was terrified that I was not going to be able to hack it. But I did. And uh

Presenter22:59

Um, interestingly, it wasn't long after that you you starred in the revival of Pal Joey, you know, Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered and all that. Uh uh was that the first time you'd had a major singing role? Yes.

Sian Phillips23:04

Bewitched.

Speaker 123:06

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter23:10

And that was where the idea for Marlena was born really.

Sian Phillips23:13

Yes, it was. Yes, it was. Because apparently at the time people said, Well, I think the wig looked a bit like a Marlena wig, so they said, Well, she looks like Marlena because I'd never sung before and I have quite a deep voice, they said she sounds like Marlena. So my agent, Sarah, said, Listen, you have to do a show about Marlena.

Presenter23:31

Yeah.

Sian Phillips23:31

But I didn't do anything about it because I couldn't see it.

Presenter23:33

Take about 17 years.

Sian Phillips23:35

Yes, quite. I I couldn't see how it would be done.

Presenter23:39

But tell me about her, Dietrich. I mean, the truth is she was an amazingly liberated woman, wasn't she?

Sian Phillips23:44

Yes, she was. I admire that about her.

Sian Phillips23:47

She was wonderfully brave and um she followed her own instincts, she used her head, she succeeded in in worlds which were quite alien to her. I mean she became the highest paid movie star in the world, having come from Germany when she was thirteen and a half.

Presenter24:03

But she orchestrated it all herself, didn't she? Obviously she had star quality, which is what it's all about, but she orchestrated her own bouquets and her own.

Sian Phillips24:08

Well that's all about

Sian Phillips24:11

Oh everything. Everything.

Sian Phillips24:14

A few shorts.

Sian Phillips24:15

Absolutely everything about her life was arranged by her and she was uh she used her brain. But a great manipulator of people, wasn't she? Oh, she was, yes.

Presenter24:25

She used sex in that sense.

Sian Phillips24:27

I think she I don't think sex was that important to her, you know, it was just another thing.

Presenter24:27

Uh

Sian Phillips24:32

Uh

Presenter24:32

Mm-hmm.

Sian Phillips24:32

No. But I mean she was bisexual or or at least yes, she was. She did have relationships with women.

Presenter24:35

What you wanna do?

Sian Phillips24:39

And but you know that I love the way men talk about her. People like Hemingway and uh there was someone else very famous whose name escapes me just at the moment, who and they refer to her in the masculine sense, actually. They say Hemingway said uh, you know, she was the best guy you could ever get into the ring with.

Sian Phillips24:55

So when the chips were down, she was a really good friend, a very brave. And the Kraut, as they called her, was a really good guy.

Presenter25:02

Patton hasn't yet

Presenter25:03

And not one of life's victims. I mean, unlike Garland or Monroe, she was a winner.

Sian Phillips25:05

Yeah.

Sian Phillips25:07

No, she was a winner, she was, and I like that about her too. She wanted to win.

Presenter25:13

You obviously have enormous admiration for her.

Sian Phillips25:15

Yes, I do.

Presenter25:17

Record number six.

Sian Phillips25:19

Well, it has to be a bit of Marlena, doesn't it? Um this it was recorded at the Queen's Theatre. I saw her in Wimbledon in nineteen seventy five. This is about this was recorded about ten years before that, and it's her singing I Can't Give You Anything But Love.

Speaker 425:34

You know dang well

Speaker 425:40

Oh baby

Speaker 425:43

I can give you

Speaker 425:45

Anything but love

Speaker 425:50

Uh

Speaker 125:51

Baba.

Speaker 125:55

Uh

Presenter26:03

Marlena Dietrich singing I Can't Give You Anything But Love And you told me she didn't just send herself bouquets, she had records of applause from all round the world.

Sian Phillips26:11

She had this long plain record of applause and she would say, Listen to this. Her friends would hate this, of course. Listen to this. This is this is Buenos Aires. This is real, real. I'm walking on here. You hear they they they applaud more, they applaud more. Now I'm going out, they applaud again.

Presenter26:28

And didn't she have didn't she deface pictures of other actors?

Sian Phillips26:31

Oh yes, yes. She didn't exactly like her contemporaries, you'd say ugly.

Sian Phillips26:35

Line through somebody's face. Hideous!

Presenter26:38

Morning.

Presenter26:40

You do do uh an in you do sound, I think it's not an impersonation, but you sound uncannily like it's it's a real sm smoker's voice, isn't it?

Sian Phillips26:47

Yes. Well, I used to smoke a lot, but I haven't smoked for a very long time, but I guess it lingers on, you know. But I've I've had to practise to get my voice down to this level as well. Kevin Amos, my musical director, has been working on me for with me and on me for about three years now. So

Presenter26:52

B

Presenter27:02

There's another parallel though I I think you have with Dietrich. I mean apparently she used to scrub her dressing room floor, didn't she? And sweep the stage. Everywhere she went she got the gloves out and the buck. Well I don't know if she got the gloves, but got the bucket. Yes. She was a complete house frower. I'm not saying you are but you like it neat and tidy, don't you?

Sian Phillips27:07

Didn't you say that?

Sian Phillips27:08

Everywhere she went she

Speaker 127:10

Yeah.

Sian Phillips27:15

I'm not sure.

Sian Phillips27:17

Yes, I do. I'm not a house brow, and I would prefer someone else to do it if possible, but yes, I would do it myself if necessary.

Presenter27:24

So there is a lot of you in her. I mean, there is this dedication to work. It's what you were saying at the beginning.

Sian Phillips27:30

The beginning, this is the Yes, that's about the only thing, in all honesty. People say, you know, what do you see of yourself? And I don't see anything because.

Sian Phillips27:38

As I said, you know, it's even hard to imagine what goes on in the head of a of a megastar of that uh nature. She is unique, and I can't really imagine.

Presenter27:47

But don't you also have that that steeliness of character?

Sian Phillips27:50

Yes, I do have a lot of determination and a lot of perseverance, I guess.

Presenter27:54

Yep. And are are you like Marlena not averse to the odd lover?

Sian Phillips27:59

No, not a verse at all. But the thing is that um

Sian Phillips28:04

I would not like to be in an exclusive.

Sian Phillips28:07

relationship. Again, I I really find it too

Sian Phillips28:10

Completely annihilating, really.

Presenter28:12

Hmm.

Sian Phillips28:13

So being on

Presenter28:13

So being on your own, able to work and completely without

Sian Phillips28:17

Guilt. Yes. Isn't that what it is?

Presenter28:17

Yes.

Presenter28:22

You mean that, don't you? It's true happiness.

Sian Phillips28:22

I really believe it's true happiness. Yes, it really is.

Presenter28:26

And exactly what you dreamt of, as you said, when you were little.

Sian Phillips28:27

Yeah.

Presenter28:29

Time for a laugh, number seven.

Sian Phillips28:32

Oh yes, well, Monty Python, the boys doing the story of Oliver Cromwell.

Speaker 428:40

Generally Mark Cromwell, Lord Protector of England, and his wardrobe in 1599 and in 1650. But alas, disagreement then broke out between the Presbyterian Parliament and the military who meant to have an independent bent. And so the Second Civil War broke out and the roundhead ranks faced the Capitol.

Sian Phillips28:42

Will the law protect our ability?

Sian Phillips28:44

It's what

Presenter29:10

The story of Oliver Cromwell, as performed by Monty Python, backing track by Chopin. Well, now all this self-sufficiency makes you an ideal castaway, really, doesn't it, Sean?

Presenter29:20

Mm

Sian Phillips29:20

Yes and no. Yes, I suppose it does, really. But I would miss people terribly. But what would you do all day? You'd garden out.

Presenter29:27

I'd garden I'd draw a bit, probably.

Presenter29:31

But no question of sitting there looking back across your life thinking how you should have done it.

Sian Phillips29:36

No, no, no, no.

Sian Phillips29:38

No, I'd done a lot of that. I don't want to do any more of that.

Presenter29:40

Have you heard?

Presenter29:42

Have you done a lot of that? I mean, is that you do sound like somebody who's sort of pulled all the problems out and given them a good pickaxe?

Sian Phillips29:47

Yes, you know I've got quite a few years recently reflecting on what I'd done and why and why I did things wrong and why I did them right sometimes. And I I think it was a good thing to do. So you're sorted really. No, I'm not sorted. The one thing I came out of it realising is that one isn't ever sorted really, but it does leave you very carefree in a way. You know, you d you don't know what is going to happen. I don't try to control my life at all.

Presenter29:50

Um

Sian Phillips30:14

And I just go with the flow, as it were, and um

Sian Phillips30:19

It isn't scary. Once you've started doing it, it it isn't at all frightening. You just don't know what's going to happen next, but you think, well, what's the worst that can happen?

Sian Phillips30:28

You know.

Presenter30:30

Last record.

Sian Phillips30:31

I'm a very keen gardener, very keen gardener. And the only time of year when I feel a bit melancholy is in September. This is a song about the garden going to sleep, which is a time of year I'm trying to love.

Speaker 431:04

Right,

Presenter31:36

Part of September, the second of Richard Strauss's four last songs, sung by Gundela Janowitz with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Karrion. Now, if you could only take one of those eight records, Shan, which one would you take?

Sian Phillips31:49

I think it would have to be the Mozart really, because um if I did get to feel out of touch with with life, with people, I think Mozart would get me back on track.

Presenter31:59

Now you've got the Bible and you've got the complete works of Shakespeare waiting for you.

Sian Phillips32:02

Yeah.

Presenter32:03

What about another book? Well, I've got the Bible.

Sian Phillips32:05

If you please, in Welsh, because we have a wonderful authorized version, which is as good as the James I version in English.

Presenter32:12

Fine.

Speaker 132:12

Uh

Sian Phillips32:13

And the other book well, I'm not terribly practical, so I th I was given a wonderful book once by a Greek shipping magnate, and it's The Medical Care of Merchant Seaman. It's a book that he carried on his oil tankers.

Presenter32:28

Very good for rickets.

Sian Phillips32:29

And well, it's good for everything, believe me. So I'll have that.

Presenter32:34

What about your luxury?

Sian Phillips32:35

My luxury would be something to write with, because I can't think without a pencil in my hand. So I would like an unlimited supply of paper and pencils, please.

Presenter32:46

Sean Phillips, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you.

Sian Phillips32:50

Yeah.

Speaker 132:58

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co. uk slash radio four.