Irene Thomas

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety seven, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:31

My Costaway this week is a quiz show contestant. If that sounds an unusual career, it's only because she's a most unusual person. Clever at school, she never went to university. She became a singer first at Covent Garden and then in films and variety shows. In 1960, at the age of forty, she entered a BBC radio competition and the following year won it, becoming the brain of Britain. She's been proving herself to be one of Britain's brainiest ever since. For thirty years on Round Britain Quiz, she's routed academics and specialists alike, as her astonishing command of general knowledge enabled her to answer the abstruse questions sent in by listeners determined to get the better of her. They rarely did, and doubtless they'll miss her as much as the rest of us, now that the programme has been laid quietly to rest. She is Irene Thomas. Are you um quietly cross that it's been axed, Irene?

Irene Thomas1:23

Well, I must say I'm rather sad, yes. We had a lot of devoted listeners, you know, used to sendless questions. And yes, it will be a very sad loss for us and for them.

Presenter1:34

But are you missing it?

Irene Thomas1:35

Oh yes, yes, I loved it. I loved every minute of it. You know, I could have gone on doing it all the time.

Presenter1:42

But you've appeared on so many quiz shows, haven't you? Crisscross Quiz and as a Brain of Britain I mentioned, Ask Me Another, The Gardening Quiz and so on. Am I right in thinking that Round Britain Quiz was your favorite?

Irene Thomas1:49

Garden

Irene Thomas1:53

Oh, it was it always was.

Presenter1:54

different from the others in the sense that it it it's really a b

Irene Thomas1:55

Yeah.

Irene Thomas1:57

All about connections. Yes, it is. It's a sort of lateral thinking thing. One thing puts you in mind of another and then of another. And the answer lies somewhere in that.

Presenter2:07

So what you must have then is not just a a a filing cabinet of a memory, but but um a strongly developed ability to run through it very quickly, like a computer, picking out the relevant bits and then processing and discarding them.

Irene Thomas2:19

Yes.

Presenter2:21

But it's fascinating to have and unusual to have. You must have realized that.

Irene Thomas2:24

It's it's not all that unusual, but it's unusual in my sort of station of life. I don't think I've ever met so many.

Irene Thomas2:33

um well educated people, as I have done since I started round Brittany.

Presenter2:38

about which I want to talk. But let me first of all put you to the test, if I may, because here's a question, if you don't mind, that you might have been asked had you recorded another series. I've been raiding the R B Q filing cabinet here. What about this one? What is the connection between Charlotte Bronchie, Big Daddy,

Presenter2:55

misses Charles Black

Presenter2:57

A seventeenth-century playwright and a papa voracious plant. Any thoughts?

Irene Thomas3:05

Papivoraceous plant. Is that something that eats?

Irene Thomas3:09

Insects

Presenter3:10

Yeah. I

Irene Thomas3:10

Do you

Presenter3:11

I think so. It's a very small

Irene Thomas3:12

Poppies.

Presenter3:13

Poppies. Yeah, I think it's a poppy-like plant, yes.

Irene Thomas3:17

Um Mrs. Charles Black I probably know under another name. Is it Shirley Temple? Correct. She married.

Presenter3:22

Correct.

Irene Thomas3:24

Black and American

Irene Thomas3:25

And she became an ambassador somewhere in Africa, didn't she? So that's Shirley Temple. Correct. Charlotte Bronte.

Presenter3:27

Aw freak.

Irene Thomas3:34

Wrote a novel called Shirley. Correct. Who were the others? Big Daddy.

Irene Thomas3:39

He must have been a Shirley. Sounds like a folk singer.

Presenter3:42

No, no. Sport is more the area. A kind of sport.

Irene Thomas3:46

Oh, uh a baseball player, no?

Presenter3:50

Well, I'll tell you, he was a wrestler. Oh, a British wrestler. A British wrestler. So now we've got a seventeenth century playwright.

Irene Thomas3:52

A British Fresh.

Presenter3:57

Uh oh, that's uh

Presenter3:59

Thomas Shirley, is it? James Shirley. James Shirley. Correct. Do we know about the poppy? We haven't got the connection of Shirley with poppy.

Speaker 24:03

We know about

Irene Thomas4:04

Uh

Speaker 24:08

Mm.

Presenter4:09

Well, it's jolly difficult this. I dunno. It's Alice, shall I tell you? Yes. The Shirley poppy was first cultivated around eighteen eighty six by the Reverend D W. Wilkes, Vicar of Shirley in Croydon. Well

Irene Thomas4:20

Well, well.

Presenter4:21

But Shirley was the answer, and of course you got it. Let's turn to your music, because I think it's I'm right in saying, Arta, that your records for A Desert Island are are classical in the main, but with a rather religious and patriotic undertone.

Irene Thomas4:23

Yeah.

Irene Thomas4:33

Oh yes, I am an unashamed patriot.

Presenter4:35

Hiya.

Irene Thomas4:36

Yes.

Presenter4:37

Tell me about the first one.

Irene Thomas4:38

Yeah.

Irene Thomas4:39

Choral singing in small groups I think is particularly delightful. So I've chosen a I think it's a madrigal called Fa Una Canzone, which means make a song. It's by a chap called Orazzio Vecchi.

Irene Thomas4:53

He was born in Modena, where Pavarotti comes from, and I think it was at the end of the sixteenth century.

Irene Thomas5:01

And this is charming, bright and happy.

Speaker 25:34

Her and the longest party, he and the bomb is marginalized, they and the redeemed.

Presenter6:02

Fa una canzone, composed by Arazio Vecchi and sung by the Robert Shaw Chorale.

Irene Thomas6:08

And to think that people used to sing that sort of thing around the

Presenter6:11

Supper table.

Presenter6:13

Now, you had a struggle getting on to Round Britain Quiz, didn't you, despite being Brain of Britain. Why didn't they want you?

Presenter6:19

Well, I don't think

Irene Thomas6:20

They never used a woman on their programme, and they doubted whether oh, after all, was I but a jamped up chorus girl, you know, I hadn't got the sort of background.

Presenter6:31

No academic qualification.

Irene Thomas6:32

It's none at all, no.

Presenter6:33

No. So they didn't want you disturbing their monastic life. That's right.

Irene Thomas6:36

That's right, until one of them, poor soul, fell ill. And I think it was because I lived near the

Presenter6:42

Yeah, they got me in for it. But you must have been terrified because after you'd been knocking at the door for seven years, suddenly they say, Oh, all right, come in. I mean, the onus upon you. It must have been

Irene Thomas6:52

Yes. Luckily the first question I got, the answer was due to the fact that my husband is a great rugby fan, being Welsh. It was about Prince Obolensky and fifteen gentlemen in black. And I thought fifteen gentlemen in black, the New Zealand team, you know, and it was known as Obolensky's Try. It was a wonderful try. And that was the first question I had.

Presenter7:13

So so you shocked them into some kind of respectfulness? So maybe. But obviously you were if you weren't academically well, I don't know whether academically is the word if you weren't intimidated by their greater knowledge than yours, because in fact it wasn't greater, were you intimidated by by by them by their Oxford accents, for example?

Irene Thomas7:15

I had folks.

Irene Thomas7:32

No, not really. I've been session singing for some time, and you get a kind of universal accent doing that.

Presenter7:39

Yeah. But you did

Irene Thomas7:39

Tried

Presenter7:40

Uh

Irene Thomas7:40

Uh

Presenter7:40

Sort of Speak a bit posh I didn't

Irene Thomas7:41

I did when I first left grammar school, yes, because I was a shall we say, a working class elitist, you know, and I wanted the best of everything. And I knew that if I was going to go into a a good job I would have to speak properly.

Presenter7:57

And how did you get on? We keep saying them, but you've mentioned Sir Dennis Brogen. There was John Julius Norwich then?

Irene Thomas8:02

No, he

Presenter8:02

No, he wasn't there then.

Irene Thomas8:03

He only came into the game when I did in 1973.

Presenter8:10

Born?

Irene Thomas8:10

Eric Korn came later, when Professor John Mays died.

Presenter8:12

Men create.

Irene Thomas8:15

And Eric has been my colleague ever since.

Presenter8:15

And Gary

Presenter8:17

And Anthony Quinton was there. Yes.

Irene Thomas8:18

Yes, he was there at the beginning.

Presenter8:20

Yes. So what do you think they thought of you in the beginning? They must have thought you were quite an odd ball.

Presenter8:26

I don't know then

Irene Thomas8:27

Never showed it, you know, there, all very highly.

Irene Thomas8:30

academic gents, but not once has any of them ever patronized me, which is wonderful, I think.

Presenter8:38

Hmm.

Presenter8:39

Tell me about your second record.

Irene Thomas8:41

Well, my father was in the army for a long time, and he played in the band of the King's Royal Rifles played a clarinet actually and I've always loved military band sound, and I think probably the best band in the world.

Irene Thomas8:55

Is the band of the Royal Marines. And they have a sunset call, which is played when the flag is lowered in the evening. A hymn comes first with the Woodwind and the band, and then the bugles and trumpets break in just that split second before you expect them. It's a real back straightener. And if I were on a desert island, I'd play this to myself, saying, you know, come on, perk yourself up, you can do it.

Presenter10:20

Sunset, played by the band of Her Majesty's Royal Marines, directed by Captain Michael Goss. Tell me a bit more about your background then, Irene. Your father was an army bandsman and a gas meter reader, I think, in civilian life. Mother a seamstress. Yes. You were an only child.

Irene Thomas10:30

Yeah.

Irene Thomas10:33

Yes, you were

Presenter10:36

Did they recognise, did your teachers recognise that they had quite a bright little girl on their hands? Well, there are a lot of

Irene Thomas10:41

Bright little girls in those days, you know. Those were in the days, let's face it, when children could read and write fluently by the time they were about seven. And if you couldn't read and write by that time, they wanted to know.

Presenter10:54

But I can't believe you went through your school career n not being different from the others. I was generally in the top few.

Irene Thomas11:01

No. But I was hopeless at other things, like sport, which made me acceptable to the other children in the grammar school.

Presenter11:09

What about at home? What did you read? What was there around all this?

Irene Thomas11:12

Old everything, encyclopedias and

Irene Thomas11:15

you know, books of all kinds then because there was only the wireless, it wasn't even the radio then and there was no television.

Presenter11:23

Did you also?

Presenter11:25

Well I suppose like so many children I sit and read the sauce bottle, I suppose.

Irene Thomas11:28

Oh yes, I'm a great authority on sauce bottles.

Presenter11:31

Uh

Irene Thomas11:31

Uh

Presenter11:31

Uh

Irene Thomas11:32

Yes, even in French it said c'est sauce de première choi de aute collider.

Presenter11:38

That's right.

Presenter11:39

But does that mean that you remember all those ki uh you know, most of us read all of these things, but we don't hang on to it. That's the difference, is it, between you and us, that somehow you retain it.

Irene Thomas11:51

If it's weird enough, I think I do. It's got to be a little bit odd for me to remember it.

Presenter11:57

But is your memory so discriminating? Don't you find yourself sometimes remembering ridiculous things that you don't need or want to?

Irene Thomas12:03

Yeah, yeah.

Irene Thomas12:06

Such as

Presenter12:06

Such as were.

Irene Thomas12:07

A London Transport poster that I've always remember. When I was a child I used to lean against bus stops going to school, and the small print at the bottom of London Transport timetables I always read the posters anyway, but this was at the bottom of the time table.

Irene Thomas12:23

And it said The Board does not undertake, nor shall it be deemed to undertake, that vehicles will start at the time specified or at all, or will arrive at the time specified, or at all.

Presenter12:38

But now I mean do you stand reading that thinking, I am going to remember this or is it somehow logged into your mind?

Irene Thomas12:41

Or is it some

Irene Thomas12:43

It was a bit about teaming that I liked, I think.

Presenter12:46

Yeah.

Irene Thomas12:46

Yeah. And a fat lot of use it is, even to lap and transport.

Presenter12:49

That's the problem, isn't it? That if you are a a a snapper up of these unconsidered trifles, as it were, you you your your head is full of completely useless information.

Irene Thomas12:49

One of them isn't

Irene Thomas12:57

It's a useless, so much so that in fact I have to make lists to myself at home, you know, like.

Irene Thomas13:04

Fetch Washing Inn, and I have to leave these lists about. My husband said the house is a listed building. Tell me about your third record. It's the forty part motet by Thomas Talis, in other words, about end of the sixteenth century.

Irene Thomas13:19

And it really is in forty parts, too. Eight choirs of five voices in each choir.

Irene Thomas13:25

And it it's weird and beautiful and almost incomprehensible. But you can imagine that in the Elizabethan age there was a lot of bad drains and disease and heresy, let's face it.

Irene Thomas13:38

And there's this great flower of music and poetry coming up from all that, like a rose of a downhill.

Speaker 213:48

Absolutely.

Presenter14:46

Part of Spem im alium by Thomas Talis, sung by the Cambridge University Musical Society with the choir of King's College, Cambridge, conducted by Sir David Wilcox.

Presenter14:55

Here's another tester. How are a colourless young man and the original female Western disaster linked to those whose mode of music is most famously associated with a Takata and Fugue?

Irene Thomas15:10

I suppose the first female disaster was Calamity Jane. That's right. Wasn't it? Now, her real name I always thought it was something like Canaris. But it could have been Bach.

Irene Thomas15:22

Uh

Presenter15:22

No, I think you're sort of vaguely moving off the point. Go back to Calamity Jane and who played her, really.

Irene Thomas15:29

Oh, Doris Day, yes. Yes.

Presenter15:31

The Deadwood stage and all that. So who's the colourless young man?

Irene Thomas15:33

Coming right over the hill.

Presenter15:39

Oh.

Presenter15:40

Colourless young man.

Irene Thomas15:41

It can't be Doris, can it? I don't know that.

Presenter15:42

Can it?

Presenter15:44

Doris is one of those words we've now got in the frame, absolutely, but there's not a Doris in this, there's another.

Presenter15:50

I think colourless is the point. I mean, as John Major used to be called colourless, he was called what?

Irene Thomas16:00

Gray, grey men. Oh, picture of Dorian Gray back. It is indeed good.

Presenter16:00

Gray.

Presenter16:05

Dorian Gray and Doris Day.

Irene Thomas16:06

Yeah.

Presenter16:08

and those whose mode of music

Presenter16:11

is most famously associated with the Takata and fugue.

Presenter16:16

It's quite a difficult link, I have to say, but uh

Irene Thomas16:18

It is not the Bach family.

Presenter16:20

Uh

Presenter16:21

Well, it is to do with Bach. Yes, if if we had an audience, they would be going at this point. Bach, yes.

Irene Thomas16:24

Yeah, yeah.

Irene Thomas16:26

Hmm.

Presenter16:27

As into Carter and Fugue. Yes. Right. So there's a little link now, do we know?

Presenter16:33

anything that's linked to Bach's to Carter and Fume.

Presenter16:36

Mm, uh that's linked with the people we've been talking.

Irene Thomas16:39

Leif

Presenter16:39

Leopold Stokovsky. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Irene Thomas16:41

Uh

Presenter16:41

Uh

Irene Thomas16:41

who conducted that for Vendesia.

Presenter16:44

Well, that's a wonderful piece of information, but completely irrelevant.

Presenter16:48

It's a nickname for Barx de Carter and Fugue, do you know it?

Irene Thomas16:52

Yeah.

Presenter16:52

So I don't think I know a nickname for that.

Irene Thomas16:53

Yeah.

Presenter16:53

Well, you we we've said the word actually in one of those earlier names.

Presenter16:58

It's known as the Dorian Decarter and Fugue.

Irene Thomas17:02

I'm out of here.

Presenter17:03

Well, I can tell you more. The Dorian m Dorians were a tribe of

Irene Thomas17:08

Yeah. That's it. They had a mode, didn't they?

Presenter17:11

Ancient Greek

Irene Thomas17:11

Yes, and they they wrote all their music in a certain is it five tone scale, something like

Presenter17:15

Yeah.

Presenter17:16

Which is which is why it's given to Bach's Takartenfew, because it's the Ticartenfew sounds as if it's written in that mode, although it isn't. And do you know where they lived, the Dorians, the these ancient Greeks? They lived in a place called

Speaker 117:27

Please

Irene Thomas17:27

Uh

Presenter17:31

Doris

Presenter17:34

It's a good question, wasn't it? Yes. I thought you might get it, because it's musical, because as I said in the introduction, you're very musical not not the organ, though, not the Cardinal Fields, piano, I think, you played. Yes, I did.

Irene Thomas17:45

And the companies for a semi-amateur concert party.

Irene Thomas17:50

when I was about thirteen, fourteen.

Presenter17:52

So you earned money, don't you? Oh, yes, I did. And you you earned money, I know, quite later in life. You played in a pub, didn't you played the old Javana?

Irene Thomas17:58

Yes, I could, yes.

Presenter18:00

Uh

Irene Thomas18:00

Uh

Presenter18:00

And they

Irene Thomas18:00

And they would give you drinks and half crowns in those days.

Presenter18:05

But in the end you turned to singing. That was your first love, really wasn't it?

Irene Thomas18:09

Who taught you? A lady called Gladys Palmer.

Irene Thomas18:12

who used to be with the old British National Opera, and she came back into the new Covent Garden Opera Company.

Irene Thomas18:22

Uh when we started off with Barcelles Fairy Queen, and I was in the the new chorus.

Presenter18:29

Let's pause there for some more music. Number four.

Irene Thomas18:32

Uh number four is from an opera. It's from Cosi Fantute.

Irene Thomas18:38

And it's one of Mozart's sillier stories, as is usual, but there's this.

Irene Thomas18:44

Beautiful music, of course, defined music, in my opinion, and it's tinged with sadness underneath.

Irene Thomas18:50

And it's the story of two sisters, and this part is where they're waving goodbye to their boyfriends who are sailing off from the Bay of Naples, and with them is an old curmudgeonly fellow, a baritone.

Irene Thomas19:05

And it's called Suave Sialbento.

Irene Thomas19:08

In other words, may the breeze be soft and and gentle.

Presenter20:08

Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, Krista Ludwig, and Walter Berry singing part of the trio Suave Silvento from Act one of Mozart's Cossi fantute.

Presenter20:16

with the Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus conducted by Carl Burm. How would you describe your singing voice, Irene?

Irene Thomas20:22

Yeah.

Irene Thomas20:23

I was a sort of mezzo soprano, and I got all the second alto parts when I was with George Mitchell, because they were generally blending in with the tenors in his arrangements, and it reinforced the tenor line.

Presenter20:37

This was George Mitchell because you went from the Opera House to to this more popular form of singing. But you did that, I understand, because you discovered you could sight read.

Irene Thomas20:42

Popular format.

Presenter20:47

Yeah.

Irene Thomas20:47

Yes. And of course outside the opera house you could earn a lot more money by doing, say, three sessions a day, as long as you don't need any great voice for session singing. All you need is the ability to read music at sight almost.

Irene Thomas21:03

And obedience, but you get megalomaniac conductors. Like who? There are so many, but there are so many of the other kind too, which is happy. Mantovani, for instance, was adorable. And we used to get visiting film conductors from America because they discovered that if they recorded the music either in London or in Vienna, that the musicians in either of those two cities were much quicker.

Irene Thomas21:33

With George I did uh radio, television, um

Irene Thomas21:37

all kinds of things.

Presenter21:39

And eventually you were a black and white minstrel, oh yeah.

Irene Thomas21:41

Oh yes.

Irene Thomas21:45

performed at the radio exhibition at Earls Court, nineteen fifty odd, and the girls girls' singers did some of the dancing as well. But of course you can't sing and dance at the same time, let's face it.

Presenter21:57

That's me.

Presenter21:58

But you didn't you you didn't black up the men blacked up.

Irene Thomas21:58

But you indeed

Irene Thomas22:00

Yes, the men blacked up. Uh in the one number, the girls blacked up as well. It was black and white television, so we had to have green faces so they'd come out black.

Irene Thomas22:11

The next time the uh black and white minstrels came back for black and white television, they used proper dancers and we we'd prerecorded them yesterday.

Presenter22:19

Why do you think it worked? It's always been rather fascinating, hasn't it? The public loves the black and white minister.

Irene Thomas22:23

They loved it. It was because of the tunes.

Irene Thomas22:27

I mean, they were good songs, beautifully arranged by George, who is a master of that sort of thing.

Irene Thomas22:34

And the people knew the music.

Irene Thomas22:36

And they love to see pretty girls and men being conjured.

Presenter22:42

And they didn't object at that stage to people blacking out the current. Absolutely not, no.

Irene Thomas22:47

Yeah.

Irene Thomas22:48

And how?

Irene Thomas22:49

In fact, we had people like Edric Commer,

Irene Thomas22:52

and Harry Belafonte, not with the black and white minstrels, but we used to sing with them, so couldn't have been any objection.

Presenter23:00

Don't you think it's strange, Lu?

Irene Thomas23:00

Looking back on it.

Presenter23:02

You couldn't just stand up there and sing, looking as you looked, that you had to put on.

Irene Thomas23:02

You couldn't just stand up there and see.

Presenter23:07

Strange makeup, strange question.

Irene Thomas23:07

No, it it was a tradition, you see, going back in America, I think they were um black and white minstrel troops.

Irene Thomas23:18

1860s, 70s, if not before that. And it was a a kind of tradition then. Next piece of music.

Presenter23:24

Next piece of music.

Irene Thomas23:26

The next piece is probably one of the finest tunes in the world, the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

Irene Thomas23:33

And it's sung by the George Mitchell singers. And the words were written by a lady called Julia Ward Howe. And people in those days used to watch battles, rather like going to the alder shop to two. You'd sit on the side of the hill and watch the battle. And somebody suggested to her that the words she could hear the soldiers singing

Irene Thomas23:54

would do better with better words. So by the light of her candle in her tent at night she wrote these words.

Speaker 224:17

Yeah.

Speaker 224:40

Hello, y'all.

Presenter25:02

Battle Hymn of the Republic with the George Mitchell Choir and the Lansdowne Orchestra directed by Alfred Ralston.

Presenter25:09

We still haven't quite got to the bottom, Irene, of of when everyone and you realized you had this extraordinary fund of knowledge. When did it begin to show itself?

Irene Thomas25:21

I suppose it must always have been there in the background though.

Irene Thomas25:26

Well, uh we used to do television shows, you know, in between various scene changes. There was a lot of sitting about in canteens and somebody had a portable radio and we used to listen to uh I think it was What Do You Know? It's now called Brain.

Irene Thomas25:43

at that time and they used to say, Go on, Green, have a go. No, you could do this because I kept answering the questions underneath my breath. So I did have a go, that's how I got first start.

Presenter25:53

But you had at some point joined Mensa, hadn't you?

Irene Thomas25:56

Oh yes, yes.

Presenter25:57

So you obviously yourself recognise.

Irene Thomas25:58

I could do it, but I don't think I'm a real menth subject. It's

Irene Thomas26:07

It's just it's not colourful enough, you know, for me.

Irene Thomas26:12

I don't know how to put this quite, but I don't think I am a mensa person.

Presenter26:17

What what person are you then?

Irene Thomas26:18

Nice.

Presenter26:20

You I mean, are you a a mastermind person? When you watch it like the rest of us as a viewer, do you?

Presenter26:27

Listen to those specialist subjects and are you able to answer them or are they too specialist for you?

Irene Thomas26:31

They are too specialists for me a lot of the time, certainly, yes. I think with that sort of thing, you find.

Presenter26:34

So yeah.

Irene Thomas26:38

Fewer women than men in these quiz games, and I think perhaps it's because

Irene Thomas26:43

Women generally aren't quite as aggressive as men.

Irene Thomas26:47

And it it's the split second.

Irene Thomas26:51

That's too late in answering. That loses you a point.

Presenter26:55

So women aren't as competitive, you mean, so their brain doesn't leap as fast.

Irene Thomas26:56

The brain doesn't leap as fast. And I'd always been in the entertainment world, remember. Whereas uh if if you're working for a megalomaniac conductor, you know, you've got to come in the right place, whatever.

Presenter27:11

Who wants a f

Irene Thomas27:13

So I think I may be may have been a bit bolder than some women.

Irene Thomas27:17

Record number six.

Presenter27:17

Number 3.

Irene Thomas27:18

Well, um

Irene Thomas27:20

The gardening quiz of Happy Memory brought together a lot of people um journalists, actors, broadcasters, all kinds of people and the only thing they had in common was their love of gardening.

Irene Thomas27:34

and one of them was the great British baritone.

Irene Thomas27:39

Thomas Allan, he's doctor Thomas Allan.

Irene Thomas27:42

He's the only man I've ever known.

Irene Thomas27:45

His middle name is Boaz, I think it's what

Irene Thomas27:48

And he has recorded the Schumann Lederchreis with Roger Vignals.

Irene Thomas27:54

And he has a fine voice.

Irene Thomas27:56

Very high intelligence, and he's quite incredibly modest about it all.

Presenter28:48

Thomas Allen singing part of Berg und Borgen Schaunherunter from Schumann's song cycle, accompanied by Roger Vignols.

Presenter28:56

I know that a lot of well-read people can be fairly dismissive about television, Irene. You are not, are you?

Irene Thomas29:03

Oh no, I'm the one of the world's great telewatchers, one of the great telewatchers of our time.

Presenter29:08

And is that where you pick a lot of this stuff up?

Irene Thomas29:10

Yes, I do. It's very it can be.

Presenter29:11

Yeah.

Irene Thomas29:13

Educational in embedded homes.

Presenter29:16

And when it's not, do you turn it off or do you watch some general?

Irene Thomas29:16

Yeah.

Irene Thomas29:18

You've got to have a certain amount of discipline.

Presenter29:21

It's often said, Irene, that that people with high intelligence like you f feel lonely. Do you have you do you experience a sense of detachment?

Irene Thomas29:31

A detachment sometimes, but lonely, never. You know, I'm I'm too fond of people for that.

Presenter29:37

That's your knowledge.

Irene Thomas29:37

Uh

Irene Thomas29:38

Yeah.

Presenter29:38

have sometimes been a bit of a burden.

Irene Thomas29:40

No, not really.

Presenter29:42

No. People don't suddenly turn around and look at you, and you feel, oh gosh, I'm too different. I'm sure.

Irene Thomas29:48

No, no, it hasn't. Because um

Irene Thomas29:52

You know, you can be useful to them sometimes. You know, you can run a quiz for them.

Irene Thomas29:56

which is nice for Women's Institute or Townswomen's Guild or whatever.

Presenter29:59

But also, presumably they ring you up all of the time to ask you something that's niggling up.

Irene Thomas30:03

Yes, some people do, I'm happy to say. My friends do mind, you know. I take that as a compliment. They think I might know it.

Presenter30:11

Record number seven.

Irene Thomas30:12

Uh

Irene Thomas30:12

Well, one of our most

Irene Thomas30:15

Our duas operas at Covent Garden was Peter Grimes and

Irene Thomas30:22

It was difficult music, at least we thought it was, we were used to 4, 4 and 3, 4, you know. And you got signatures in Peter Grimes like 5, 4 and 15, 8, in other words, 15 quavers for the bar, you know. But it was worth doing. And in Peter Grimes, there are

Irene Thomas30:41

on tracts. The one I think I like best is the Prelude to Act Two, which is a picture of the sea off the East Anglian coast, because Benjamin Britton lived in um East Anglia and Olborough.

Irene Thomas30:56

And it is exactly like the sun sparkling on the waves on a lovely Sunday morning. It's called Sunday morning.

Presenter32:02

Part of the prelude to Act Two of Benjamin Britton's Peter Grimes, played by the City of London Sinphonia, conducted by Richard Hickox. W was it Benjamin Britton himself who conducted you in that?

Irene Thomas32:11

Yes, it was once or twice.

Presenter32:13

And was he one of your megalomaniac conductors?

Irene Thomas32:16

No, not in the least, but he was a perfectionist, a real perfectionist.

Presenter32:21

So we had you really sweating. Oh yeah.

Irene Thomas32:22

Oh yes, he did, absolutely.

Presenter32:25

Do you ever wonder if your life would have been very different if you'd gone to university and had a formal education, Irene?

Irene Thomas32:32

No, it's impossible to say, isn't it, at this stage?

Presenter32:34

No regrets.

Irene Thomas32:35

Regrets none now, no. A few years ago maybe. But at the time I had no regrets either. I mean, it just wasn't possible and that was it, you know.

Presenter32:45

Not enough money.

Irene Thomas32:45

Yeah.

Presenter32:46

But what would have happened to you, I wonder? Is it possible to speculate? What what kind of you'd have been an academic, would you?

Irene Thomas32:53

Probably, but in the days nowadays we have the Cambridge Footlights and the Oxford University Dramatic Society, you know.

Irene Thomas33:03

I probably would have been an actress or something.

Presenter33:05

Would you?

Irene Thomas33:05

Yeah, so show off, you know.

Presenter33:08

It's all in there, isn't it?

Irene Thomas33:09

And with his

Presenter33:10

And what happens to the memory now, now that it's no longer kept sharp by Round Britain quiz, will it atrophy or something?

Irene Thomas33:11

Uh

Irene Thomas33:17

No, I don't think so. I think I'm just as fascinated by everything as I ever was.

Presenter33:22

Is there anything that's permanently foxed you in this filing cabinet? Is there something that you've never been able to discover wherever you've looked?

Irene Thomas33:29

Oh yes. Um we were doing it

Irene Thomas33:31

television programme many years ago, and a cameraman came up I think it was a cameraman, could have been a sound man, came up to me and he said, I bet you don't know what Beaumont's egg is.

Irene Thomas33:43

And I stared at me, just didn't, you see. And he went away.

Irene Thomas33:48

And I never saw him after that.

Irene Thomas33:50

I've never found out to this day what Beaumont's egg is, except that it may be a kind of uh corruption of Beaumontage, uh which is I think a kind of cement that bridge builders and sculptors, people like that, use.

Irene Thomas34:05

But nowhere have I found Beaumont.

Presenter34:08

Hey go, there's a poser for the nation.

Presenter34:11

Um, tell me about your last record.

Irene Thomas34:14

The last one is a reminder of all my lovely Welsh in-laws and friends.

Irene Thomas34:21

I think to be part of a Welsh congregation or choir is a wonderful experience, even if you're not very religious, you know. And they have some fine hymn tunes, too.

Speaker 234:33

Divine on love excellent, joy of heaven to earth come down.

Speaker 234:45

Bracing us by humble.

Speaker 235:11

Lives in us with thy son made.

Speaker 235:18

And the friend

Presenter35:26

Love Divine sung by the Triawke Male Voice Choir. Now if you could only take one of those records, Irene.

Irene Thomas35:32

Oh, it'd have to be the divine Mozart, I think.

Presenter35:34

Hmm.

Irene Thomas35:35

Soa besi alben.

Presenter35:37

And what about Yeah.

Irene Thomas35:38

Yeah.

Irene Thomas35:39

Well, um

Irene Thomas35:42

I can't have Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and People. Well, it's a reference book and technically against the rules.

Speaker 235:47

Ooh.

Irene Thomas35:48

In that case, if you don't approve, I will take the full score of Beethoven's Fidelio. I don't read an orchestral score very well, and it would be a good opportunity for me to try, wouldn't it? And what about a luxury? Ah, now I can't have a cat. No, you can't.

Presenter36:04

N nothing animal, I mean

Irene Thomas36:05

Yeah.

Presenter36:05

Very well.

Speaker 236:06

Yeah.

Irene Thomas36:07

while another benign creature is a teddy bear.

Irene Thomas36:10

Uh let's have a teddy bear about two or three feet high, a fair size, you know, stuffed with tea bags and and carrying round his neck a little bottle of Lily of the Valley scent.

Presenter36:24

Three in one, but we'll let it pass. Thank you. Hi, really, Thomas. Thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Irene Thomas36:26

Yeah.

Irene Thomas36:30

It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 136:38

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co. uk slash radio four.