Ian Dury

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety six, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My Castaway this week is a performer. That's his description of a career that's included pop music, art, and acting among its achievements. An Essex boy, he contracted polio when he was seven and has been severely disabled ever since. After a somewhat erratic education, he went to art school, but graduated in his thirties to writing and performing songs. With his group The Blockheads, he enjoyed huge success, particularly with numbers like Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick. Although his popularity as a singer has since waned, he remains in the public eye, still writing songs with vivid lyrics, acting, and taking a controversial attitude towards disability. He dismisses such events as International Year for the Disabled, for instance, because he says they imply that next year everything will be all right when it won't. He is Ian Dury. It's true you're not one of the Disabled Lobby's favourite people, isn't it, Ian?

Ian Dury1:25

I believe it is, yeah.

Presenter1:26

Do you go out of your way to upset?

Ian Dury1:28

Uh no. Um, things that are run by people who know what they're

Ian Dury1:33

Running it for. In other words, if it everything like that was run by people who were disabled, I think I'd probably have a different attitude. But

Ian Dury1:40

At the end of 1981.

Ian Dury1:43

I got sent to Hugh Brochure asking me to be the frontman for nineteen eighty two, the year of recycled glass.

Ian Dury1:51

So it really says it all.

Presenter1:53

But I suppose that was the high point of your alienation, as you say, nineteen eighty one. I think you you wrote Spasticus Autisticus, a song that that you argued

Presenter2:02

I think celebrated disability, but a lot of people found it objectionable, didn't they? And it was pretty harsh, you know, get up, get up, get down, fall down.

Ian Dury2:09

Get up.

Ian Dury2:11

It it celebrated life. It didn't celebrate disability. It celebrated the fact that

Ian Dury2:16

One or we or they were still alive afterwards.

Ian Dury2:19

It was more of a not a war cry, but a kind of a rallying cry.

Presenter2:24

But why didn't they like it then?

Ian Dury2:24

Muhammad.

Ian Dury2:26

Um

Ian Dury2:27

We don't use the word spastic anymore.

Ian Dury2:29

because it became a kind of swear word or or a racist word. But

Presenter2:33

But you knew that when you put it in the title, didn't you?

Ian Dury2:33

You thumb when you

Ian Dury2:35

Yeah, I I I felt upset hearing or reading people using that word.

Ian Dury2:41

Without really even knowing what it meant, and using it as a way of describing a dance or something.

Ian Dury2:47

I did it as a war cry really, as a as a as a shout. It wasn't an I mean as my mum got very upset about me doing it at all. And I just well, don't forget my son in the entertainment industry. I said Monday morning laboratory paper's much more important.

Presenter3:00

Well, yes, except that you had great influence then because you just had this this series of of big hits. You were a pop star. Although an unlikely one, it has to be said. Uh uh one of your critics described you as looking like a pantomime villain with loosh sideburns and greasy curls and body canted over on a walking stick. And what's more you were thirty-six at the time.

Ian Dury3:18

Kind of

Ian Dury3:20

And what's loose? What does loose mean? I don't know that one. The loose end.

Presenter3:21

Yeah.

Presenter3:22

Yeah.

Presenter3:23

But how surprised were you that you became a pop star?

Ian Dury3:27

I wasn't that surprised because I think it's really it's all down to what you write on your table at home. If you've written a good song it will jump off the table, go out in the street, get a taxi and go down Tim Pan Alley.

Ian Dury3:38

I make a living for you.

Presenter3:39

So what you look like doesn't matter.

Ian Dury3:41

Well, I'm not going to mention any names. You said Engelbert Umperdink. No, I don't think so. I don't think it matters a.

Ian Dury3:49

A single bit, no.

Presenter3:50

And d did it matter to you? I'm I'm I I just wonder, actually, when you walk out onto a stage, when you are disabled as you were, when you do have the stick and so on, did it make you more aware of yourself?

Ian Dury4:00

Hmm.

Ian Dury4:01

Not at all. I I was once accused in a a place called the Nashville, which was a a a music pub.

Ian Dury4:07

Somebody came up to me afterwards and said, You're putting that on.

Ian Dury4:11

I said, no, I'm not, I'm hiding it. And about two years later, I met the doctor and he said, I love the way you disguise it.

Ian Dury4:17

So, either way, I I just walk the middle the middle line. I don't really think about it at all. Um, although I'm severely disabled in in some ways, I'm not restricted that much by it. I can't run for buses, but

Ian Dury4:30

I don't really mind missing a few buses.

Presenter4:33

Tell me about your first record.

Ian Dury4:35

Well, my first band was called Kilburn on the High Roads and uh our manager was Charlie Gillett.

Ian Dury4:41

He's a renowned and very erudite disc jockey and he played this song and the bass is playing the pedals on a Hammond organ.

Ian Dury4:50

I'd never heard of the guy before, Bobby Charles.

Ian Dury4:53

And I just love this song.

Speaker 44:55

It's all small tempted

Speaker 44:59

You know how people are

Speaker 45:02

They can't stand the sea.

Speaker 45:06

Someone else do what they like

Speaker 45:15

It's all small town, tall.

Speaker 45:19

You mustn't pay no man.

Speaker 45:22

Don't believe a word.

Presenter5:24

Small Town Talk, written and performed by Bobby Charles. There's another reason that you are an unlikely pop star Ian Durie, and that is that um singing is not your forte, is it?

Ian Dury5:33

Remember.

Presenter5:35

You have a habit of changing key when nobody else does.

Ian Dury5:37

Oh no, come along now. Be fair. I I try and avoid things like that. I try and plow a a straight course through the middle of all these things called key changes and chords.

Presenter5:47

But that's why you develop this I think they call it your Essex growl, really, just sort of st standing there chanting, as it were.

Ian Dury5:53

I've I've got I think I've got quite a reasonable sense of rhythm, so I kinda try not to interfere too much with the music.

Ian Dury6:01

I'm dead.

Presenter6:03

But that's what it is all about. Hit me with your rhythm stick. It was not just a ph uh you know, a phrase you plucked out. Rhythm is what it's all about, isn't it? It's that that beat, beat, beat.

Ian Dury6:12

It's the groove, really. It's what we call the groove. And if you've got a good groove, it's a rhythm pattern and a certain tempo, and the words.

Ian Dury6:20

find their own tempo, and uh it's usually the right one. If it means a certain thing, you'll say it or you'll sing it in the same tempo every time. So counting in a tune, I always think where's the middle eight or where's the bit that goes that that that that that that and that will give you the the clue as to the tempo.

Ian Dury6:38

And that those things are quite important. If you play something too fast, it ends up a scrambled egg. Or if you play it too slow, everyone falls asleep.

Presenter6:45

So, when you're writing the words, you do invent the rhythm at the same time, do you? I mean, that's the.

Ian Dury6:49

Um, I work with a rhythm. I I write I programme a rhythm and where my sibilances come in are if S's and T's, you can get a you know the hi-hat, the one that t t that one

Ian Dury7:02

And then you you design that so that it

Ian Dury7:05

It kind of goes with what you're doing or goes against it or goes as a polyrhythm to that in in terms of the words. Once I'm happy with that, th I can actually forget about it after that and I mean, I wouldn't ask a drummer to uh copy anything. It's just to make sure that I've got the space for the lyric and then work with the composer.

Presenter7:24

Now what about those lyrics, the language? Because you're you you're they say you were Essex man bif fifteen years before he was invented, I think. You you care you like all of that, don't you? The cockney kind of rhyming slang with that kind of cockney accent. You cultivated all of that.

Ian Dury7:35

Yeah.

Ian Dury7:36

I've cultivated, I grew up in Upminster and I grew up with a local accent and I've savoured it and I remember the first time I heard Rymy sing, I remember bloating up and said, Oh look at the state of his Barnett and I went, what's that? He goes, Barnett, you're here, you're Barnett Fair. And I found that very amusing. And ever since then, I was about 14 or 13, I've

Ian Dury7:58

Hung around with people, and I've talked with people who enjoy it as well. I worked with Roger Lloyd Pack a few years ago on a project, and he came in and said, Oh, I'm having terrible trouble with my April. I went, April, you got me there, Roger, where's it going? Well, there's this long, long thing of your Harris is your bottom, right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 48:11

Uh Yeah.

Speaker 28:12

But

Speaker 48:12

What is it?

Speaker 28:17

Mm-hmm.

Ian Dury8:18

And now that it goes Harris, Aristotle, bottle, bottle, and glass arse.

Ian Dury8:22

And I'll go, well, tell me, it's April in Paris. Paris. And I went, okay.

Presenter8:25

I mean okay.

Ian Dury8:27

Um

Presenter8:28

Give me a few lines that you've written that you're proudest of then. What would you choose? Difficult question.

Ian Dury8:35

Oh, I like Harold Hill of Harold Hill.

Ian Dury8:39

I got into a taxi a couple of couple of years ago and the boy went, You're from Upminster, incha? Yeah, he said he goes, Do you know my favourite? I go and tell me. He goes, Herold Hill of Herold Hill'cause if you've been to Herold Hill, it's a a place in the mid between Brentwood and Rumford. It doesn't I mean Herold Hill. So

Speaker 28:47

No.

Ian Dury8:57

The home improvement expert Harold Hill, of Harold Hill, Of do it yourself dexterity and double glazing skill, Came home to find another gentleman's kippers in the grill, So he sandied off his winkle with his black and deck a drill.

Ian Dury9:10

I think that's quite funny. I'll still laugh at that one.

Presenter9:11

That was

Presenter9:13

Amon, am I right in thinking it was you who coined the phrase sex, drugs, and rock and roll?

Ian Dury9:17

I I've been credited with it. It seemed a logical thing to do at the time.

Presenter9:21

You're in the dictionary quotations.

Ian Dury9:21

Yeah.

Ian Dury9:22

I believe so. I'm quite proud of that. I kept getting on escalators and seeing a lingerie advert, and then somebody from the feminist movement had come along and stuck a sticker over that saying this is sexist, which doubled up the amount of time wasted on this subject. And I thought, well, people going back home, if that's all they got in their mind after they've been doing their day's work, there must be something better. And I really wrote Sex and Drugs and Rock and Row. Great, they're there. Now, what else have we got? Let's go to the National Gallery. Or implying there are.

Presenter9:53

More things to do.

Ian Dury9:53

More fun things to do. And of course, everyone started singing it as soon as we did. The audience joined in and it became.

Ian Dury10:00

I kind of meant some.

Presenter10:01

And it got banned by the BBC.

Ian Dury10:03

Definitely.

Presenter10:04

Tell me about your second record.

Ian Dury10:06

Dean Martin was one of my dad's favourites and my mum loved Dean Martin very much and I can remember my dad singing this all over the place.

Speaker 410:15

When you what?

Speaker 410:19

In a dream.

Speaker 410:22

But you know you're not dreaming, Senor

Speaker 410:31

Excusing me, but you see back in hold that police at some point

Presenter10:41

Dean Martin and That Samore.

Presenter10:46

So you were brought up in Essex, see and jury. Your dad was a bus driver and your mother was a was a health visitor.

Speaker 410:47

See you.

Speaker 410:51

Yeah.

Ian Dury10:51

Yeah.

Presenter10:51

And by the time you were five, you'd been seen by three psychologists. What was the problem?

Ian Dury10:57

Um

Ian Dury10:58

I think I refused to go to school. I don't actually remember seeing the psychologist, but my mum.

Ian Dury11:04

was a fairly br she totally brilliant mother. She steamed into me from a very early age and uh taught me to read before I went to school.

Ian Dury11:13

So that I think by the time I went to school I was

Ian Dury11:16

I didn't want to go there. I I didn't see the point.

Presenter11:19

You're bored,

Ian Dury11:20

I don't remember, but it must have been something like that.

Presenter11:22

Were you rebellious, do you know?

Ian Dury11:23

I think I probably was, yeah.

Presenter11:25

So when and how did you contract polio? What happened?

Ian Dury11:29

Again, this is conjecture, but I went with my friend Barry. We went to South End and went swimming.

Ian Dury11:34

Or going the pool and um

Ian Dury11:37

I was at my granny's about eight weeks later, six weeks later.

Ian Dury11:41

And I got ill. And they thought at first it might be meningitis, I think, and they gave me a lumbar punch. They took me to the hospital. And it turned out to be polio. And I think my friend Barry got a kind of fever for a couple of weeks, but wasn't affected. It didn't really go any any further than that. But I was, you know, very ill for about six weeks.

Presenter12:00

But how how did it affect you? What happened?

Ian Dury12:02

Uh well it got it steamed into my muscles and it it it stopped here at my right wrist. It got everywhere else except that. It didn't get my chest. I think I probably wouldn't have had the energy that I've got now if it had affected my and very often polio affects your your breathing and that obviously in in its own way affects your energy.

Presenter12:20

What it meant when you were seven, eight, it was that you had to go to a special school for handicapped children.

Ian Dury12:24

And

Presenter12:27

How did they help you?

Ian Dury12:29

They probably gave me a physical

Ian Dury12:32

attitude of extreme

Ian Dury12:35

Determination.

Ian Dury12:37

There was a an unwritten rule that if you fell over you weren't nobody was allowed to help you up, but which was there to encourage you to be independent, not not to be cruel or anything.

Presenter12:46

Because otherwise you go under.

Ian Dury12:47

Well, you could possibly, yeah. And it was a training. It was called Chaley Heritage Craft School, which meant you learned to be a cobbler or a printer or a carpenter. And um, my mum

Ian Dury13:00

Or you know, like I mean, it was a fantastic place for physical welfare and and getting strong again, which they certainly made me very strong again. But education here was a little bit behind the times.

Presenter13:11

And not what your mother wanted. We'll hear about that in a minute. But tell me about record number three, Dan.

Ian Dury13:13

Already

Ian Dury13:14

I'm not

Ian Dury13:16

Well, it's m for mum, um, Frank Crammett. I got given a a wind-up gramophone when I was about fourteen.

Ian Dury13:23

And the first record was obviously mi mum my mum's favourite one,'cause it was Frank Crammett singing uh Abdullah Boob al Amir, and uh I I can remember all the words to this day.

Speaker 413:36

Sons of the prophets were brave men and bold, and quite unaccustomed to fear.

Ian Dury13:38

Yeah.

Speaker 413:43

But the bravest by far in the ranks of the Shah Ms. Abdull, the Bulbul, the Mir.

Ian Dury13:48

Come here.

Speaker 413:49

Now the heroes were plenty and well known to fame In the troops that were led by the Czar And the bravest of these was a man by the name

Presenter13:58

Got a name

Speaker 413:59

Adaivon Skovinsky Skavor.

Presenter14:02

Frank Crummett and Abdul Abul Bulameer, and that was recorded in nineteen twenty seven. So your mother, Ian, transferred you to the Royal Grammar School, High Wickham, when you were about twelve, I think.

Speaker 414:11

Yeah.

Ian Dury14:11

Yeah.

Presenter14:11

Because she didn't want you to be a a cobbler or a carpenter.

Ian Dury14:15

Well, uh partly I mean because she did want me to be a lawyer rather than a negative. Yeah, she got me to take my eleven plus at the age of twelve, which I passed, and Essex County Council very kindly gave me a grant to go to High Wickham.

Presenter14:29

Were you were you bullied because of the

Ian Dury14:29

I

Ian Dury14:30

I wasn't bullied, no. I was um I think I was treated too kindly for about six months until they realized I could do most things myself. And I let them do it. I shouldn't have done, but I did. I let'em make my bed until they realized I could make it myself.

Presenter14:45

But you did end up in tears on one occasion, didn't you?

Ian Dury14:47

They thought that the slipper didn't hurt me. They thought polio meant that he didn't feel pain.

Ian Dury14:53

I had sixteen prefects meetings in in half a term.

Ian Dury14:57

And then they went to the headmaster and said, Look, he doesn't feel pain. Can we mess his head up instead well, I didn't say that to you, but can we give him poetry to learn and essays to write instead, please, as a punishment for his misdemeanours? So the headmaster gave him permission and I I was I had to go in the box room where all the suitcases were stored. I learned eighty lines of

Ian Dury15:17

Ode to Autumn by your man Keats. If I got a word wrong, I had to go back and they add that on to the end of the sentence.

Ian Dury15:25

And after five nights of this I was really a bump.

Ian Dury15:28

My head had definitely gone, and I burst into tears. Walking down the corridor burst into tears.

Ian Dury15:35

Oh, and a a a very nice man I can't remember his name he he was the housemaster of another boarding house. He came out, saw me blubbing in the corridor.

Ian Dury15:44

And'cause he was a far they had some kids at the

Ian Dury15:47

What the hell's in everybody?

Ian Dury15:49

And he he came out with a natural father, he put his arm round me, he said, What's the matter? I went, Oh, they've got me, they've got me And he I presume it was him, me went and put a stop to it.

Ian Dury15:59

Look at you, I probably deserved

Presenter16:01

In the end you were expelled.

Ian Dury16:02

Well, I was exposed, yeah, rather.

Presenter16:04

Why?

Ian Dury16:06

Oh, I I deny it.

Ian Dury16:09

That's all I can say.

Presenter16:10

You still feel guilty about it, obviously. I've gone quite pink.

Presenter16:15

What what what were you alleged to have done, mister Drory?

Ian Dury16:19

I was a list of throwing a piece of fish at the headmaster's way.

Ian Dury16:23

But I didn't.

Presenter16:24

But you didn't. I'll never.

Ian Dury16:24

I swear it.

Ian Dury16:26

Yeah.

Presenter16:28

But you are out.

Ian Dury16:29

I was gonzoed, yeah.

Presenter16:30

No O levels, no A levels.

Ian Dury16:32

I did take O level, yeah, I did three. I got English, English and Art. And by which time I'd already had an interview at at Walthamstow School of Art. I knew I was going there, so I didn't really mind.

Presenter16:45

Next piece of music, number four.

Ian Dury16:47

When I was fourteen or fifteen I went to see a film called The Girl Can't Help It a Jane Mansfield Vehicle and it was just full of rock and rollers. It was Little Richard was in there, Eddie Cochrane.

Ian Dury16:57

and G Minson singing Bee Bapalula. And it was it's in the film for about eighteen seconds, and you can hear him in the background for I couldn't believe it I was like What what's that? The voice, the song and the visuals uh together combined and my brain exploded, my heart explo and this is the B side.

Ian Dury17:15

to Bebopalula, his first major massive single. And Woman Love is I believe it's quite rude, but nobody knows what he's talking about. Nobody I've asked people to explain it and nobody knows what he's saying.

Speaker 417:29

I'm looking for a loving gal that needs a lot of kin Don't want about her fippin' You put into number hand That I got to really skick and he said Good lot of both a sudden show around when he didn't use em

Presenter17:42

Oh my god.

Presenter17:45

Jean Vincent and Woman Love well he knew what he was saying.

Ian Dury17:48

He knew it, he knew it. It was banned everywhere that one.

Presenter17:48

Do it.

Presenter17:50

Never draw.

Speaker 417:51

Oh.

Presenter17:51

Uh

Speaker 417:51

I've a woman love and bathing to cover me to shake him over my love

Presenter17:58

Let's find.

Presenter18:00

Right. Um art. Art painting became your passion. In fact, you made a living at it, didn't you?

Ian Dury18:05

I made a living more as an illustrator and a teacher. I taught in art school.

Presenter18:10

Illustrating what kind of thing, what did you do?

Ian Dury18:11

Peter Blake was my um

Ian Dury18:13

He did the famous Sgt. Pepper cover. He walked into Walthamstow Art School in 1961 and had a big effect on a lot of us, on my generation, showing us that it was possible to actually be inspired by what we were drawing. Rather than going out and drawing some boring old pub in Leytonstone, he said, Would you like pin-ups? I went, Yeah, naturally. And he went, Well, why don't you paint them?

Speaker 418:34

Anyway, what do you

Ian Dury18:36

Which seemed like a very good idea. And we went on, six of us got into the Royal College of Art from Walthamstow.

Ian Dury18:44

And Peter Blake continued to teach us by starting to teach at the Royal College when we went there. And he got me some illustration work in my third year.

Ian Dury18:53

for London Life magazine, that was a short lived. Mark Boxer used to be the editor. David Putnam was the financial director. David Hillman, Francis Wyndham, wonderful people that all worked around the Sunday Times magazine. So I started working for the Sunday Times magazine as well.

Presenter19:08

But at some point you started to play in pubs. This was Kilburn and the High Road.

Ian Dury19:11

Yeah, that was a long time I I got a group together of jazz musicians that I knew. It was the day of the Lord Mayor's show because the piano player got stuck in the traffic on the Lord and he took ages to get to the Jubilee studios in Covent Garden because of the traffic jam. And by which time the saxophone player had fallen asleep. That was the first rehearsal.

Presenter19:29

But at what point then after that did you did you s set up an this very what was to be this very fruitful songwriting partnership with Chas Jankle?

Ian Dury19:37

Well, I met Chez in in the Nashville. He came in the dressing room and he'd heard that we were looking for a keyboard player. We went out for a kind of last ditch rehearsals with the Kilburns to see if it was gonna work or not. And one morning I'd got out very, very sad. I knew it wasn't really happening. And I just played there I got and sat in their drummer's drum kit.

Ian Dury19:57

and started hitting the drums as hard as I could.

Ian Dury19:59

as trying to sound like Stevie Wonder playing the drums, which is just

Ian Dury20:05

like that. And behind me I heard a piano.

Ian Dury20:08

Dunk, dunk, dunk. I look around, it was chairs.

Ian Dury20:10

I stopped the band that weekend and Chasin and me started working.

Ian Dury20:15

Together

Ian Dury20:16

And he easy in it, he plays whenever he plays his guitar or piano, he smiles. Even if he's working something out and and w worrying it out, he still smiles.

Ian Dury20:27

And your heart lights up when you see him. And it's been like that for you know, they sound sobby, but for nineteen years he's never stopped smiling.

Presenter20:34

And together you wrote all those hits, Rhythm Stick, Reasons to Be Cheerful, Wake Up and Make Love With Me.

Ian Dury20:39

Yeah.

Presenter20:39

Another record banned by the B B C

Presenter20:42

Tell me about record number five.

Ian Dury20:44

When we were writing together at that period in 1976 and 77, I'd always stayed away from blues musicians. I liked jazz very much and I liked funky music and James Brown and soul music and cowboy music and reggae and dun-dun. I'd never really listened to 12 bar blues very much, Muddy Walters and Robert Johnson. I liked it up to a point, but it never really enthralled me. And one day I heard this record by Taj Mahal. And we listened to nothing but Taj Mahal for a whole year we were writing together, New Boots and Panties. And this particular song, well it says it for me anyway, music keeps me together.

Speaker 421:21

Just taking the privilege to think of myself

Speaker 421:26

Just making it what it is, with what is left Still trying to feel the earth wandered with the sound And I need to be sure that joy will stay around Oh I need to be sure that joy will stay around

Speaker 421:47

User screen

Presenter21:51

Taj Mahal and Music Keeps Me Together. Can we talk a bit more about your style, Ian Ian Durie?'Cause I think it you know, it's very distinctive. It's the it's quite vaudeville, it's been said. You want to make people laugh. It's quite musical, isn't it?

Ian Dury22:03

I like it when it's funny. I like my lyrics best when they make me laugh. And

Ian Dury22:09

Especially if they make other people laugh.

Presenter22:10

You toured once with Max Wall, the comedian too.

Ian Dury22:13

We didn't tour with him. We asked him to to uh introduce us.

Presenter22:17

Didn't you record one of your songs?

Ian Dury22:18

He did do one he did a song of ours, yeah. England's Glory. England's Glory, yeah. And we did ask him and he came to Hammersmith Odeon and introduced us and they just shouted at him and screamed at him and yelled at him. And I went out on stage and put my arm around him and haranged the audience for not giving him the respect.

Presenter22:20

England's cloud.

Ian Dury22:34

And I said, Come on, Max, they don't deserve you. As I'm walking across the stage to the wings, he went, They only want the walks.

Presenter22:42

But what about those those days, the height of your fame? Did you enjoy being famous? Did you enjoy having all those fans? What did it mean to you?

Ian Dury22:49

At the time, I really hated it. I'll be honest with you. I hated it. But I felt it was necessary to establish that kind of.

Ian Dury22:56

Whatever you call it, a bridgehead of some sort.

Presenter22:58

What did you hate about it?

Ian Dury23:00

I hate the fact I didn't have a moment to myself. I hate the fact that every minute was spent doing interviews blagging myself or blagging this and blagging that.

Ian Dury23:09

That if I stood at Oxford Street in Arusha, I'd get mobbed. I never wanted that. I read somewhere Paul McCartney said, If he goes to say you're walking through Soho and he gets recognized, he walks briskly away. If I did that, I'd trip over, so it's even worse. So I suddenly kind of became a prisoner of the fact that I had a bad leg.

Ian Dury23:29

just because I couldn't walk briskly away. And if you walk differently from everyone else, children are walking along the street with their mum, they'll notice you. People noti they can't help. It's not anything horrible, but they can't help noticing. And I get recognized

Ian Dury23:43

as a result of the way I walk, rather than because I'm very recognisable.

Ian Dury23:47

And being recognized by everybody all the time made me quite unhappy.

Presenter23:52

More music.

Ian Dury23:54

Well, this is my beloved Alma Cogan. In in the Kilburns we used to sing Twenty Tiny Fingers. She put on the light in the middle of the night and whispered, Dear, let's go. I grabbed the sock and called the dock. Various others and one of the ones we sang was The Naughty Lady of Shady Lane, which has got a kind of edge to it.

Speaker 424:12

The naughty lady of Shady Lane Has hit the town like a bomb The back band's gossip ain't been this good Since Mabel ran off with Tom

Speaker 424:26

Our town was peaceful and quiet.

Speaker 424:29

Before she came on the scene.

Speaker 424:33

The lady has started a riot.

Speaker 424:36

Disturbing the suburban routine Of a naughty lady of shade

Presenter24:43

Alma Cogan singing The Naughty Lady of Shady Lane. One of the most notable things you've done since all that pop started me in is write for the theatre, for example, bawdy songs for an R S C production of

Speaker 424:50

This might

Ian Dury24:51

Yeah.

Ian Dury24:53

Yeah.

Presenter24:55

That restoration comedy The Country Wife, William Witcherley, it turned out to be right up your street there.

Ian Dury25:01

I loved it. I was in a play at the Royal Court called Road, a Jim Cartwright play.

Ian Dury25:06

Max Stafford Clarke, who when we work at the Royal Shakespeare, we call him Max Stratford Clarke, which we think is very amusing, but I don't think he does. And he asked me to write he said I'd like a showstopper. So the first one we did was called A Jovial Crew, which was about vagabonds in sixteen forty.

Ian Dury25:24

and were gipsy dancing and

Ian Dury25:27

I got the the dictionaries of the Kenting tongue. People in Fulham still call their golferin their Mort, M-O-R-T. And this is the Kenting tongue from probably gypsies 500, 600 years ago. And I with Max's help, also the fact that the author was no longer with us and he didn't complain about what I was doing.

Ian Dury25:49

We had a wonderful time doing that.

Presenter25:51

You also wrote um a a musical, a whole musical of your own called Apples, which played at the royal court, about modern day sex and and scandal and for tabloids and politicians and so on.

Ian Dury25:54

Yeah.

Ian Dury25:59

The tab

Presenter26:01

In which you played the lead, didn't you, Byron?

Ian Dury26:03

Well, sort of a l it was a kind of co-lead, really. I didn't play the ingenue. I played the older, the reporter, the cynic. It was the heck.

Presenter26:09

The hand

Presenter26:11

But how big a difference is there between being on stage, you know, playing your music and being part of a whole musical production liner?

Ian Dury26:20

Well, in fact, not a lot, because we had a rock and roll band on the second tier at the back of the stage who were all mates of ours, and we could have a little wink and a nod.

Ian Dury26:29

I made a mistake doing that. I was encouraged by, you know, very nicely by Max and Simon Curtis, the director.

Ian Dury26:35

What I should have done with hindsight is to work with a playwright, because I'm not a playwright, and I had fifteen songs, and I tried to write a story from one song to the next, which was not the right way to do it. If I ever do it again, I should work, hopefully, in collaboration with somebody, and I can write the songs, and they can do the play.

Presenter26:53

Record number seven.

Ian Dury26:54

M. Peebles, perfect song, perfect voice, perfect arrangement and

Ian Dury27:01

It's pretty perfect.

Speaker 427:07

I can't stand the rain.

Speaker 427:11

It's my window.

Speaker 427:16

Bringing back sweet memory

Speaker 427:20

Hey, When do I?

Speaker 427:23

Do you remember?

Speaker 427:28

How sweet it used to be.

Presenter27:32

Anne Peebles, and I can't stand the rain.

Presenter27:35

There's little doubt that you're a a survivor in the general sense, Ian. What about in the specific sense on a desert island? Have you got the talent for that?

Ian Dury27:42

Yeah, I'd love it.

Presenter27:43

Have you got family, children?

Ian Dury27:45

Yeah, I've got um two grown-up children. Baxter's twenty-four, Jemima's twenty-seven.

Ian Dury27:50

And I've got a little baby boy now with Sophie.

Ian Dury27:54

Baxton.

Ian Dury27:55

Uh Jemima's mum died two years ago.

Ian Dury28:03

And I've got a little boy called Bill.

Ian Dury28:06

who's uh twenty m twenty two months old and I

Ian Dury28:10

I also got another one on the way.

Presenter28:12

I see. So you want to escape from this island to get back to all of them. What about to get back to performing with a capital P? I mean, do you need it? Do you want it?

Ian Dury28:13

Are you

Ian Dury28:16

What about

Ian Dury28:21

I d I'm not a a so called junkie for it. Um I love doing it. Usually it's a happy occasion. The only reason we're all there is to enjoy ourselves. We're not there to be grumpy and we're not there to be too profound.

Ian Dury28:35

I've been accused of philosophy, I've been accused of poetry, but I'm not guilty of either. My attitude is to go out.

Ian Dury28:43

Slam those boards as hard as possible, and try and sing in tune.

Presenter28:47

And

Presenter28:48

Is that what you want to do some more of now? Do you want to get back on the stage there?

Ian Dury28:52

Yeah, every every

Presenter28:53

Oh yeah, if

Ian Dury28:54

Oh yeah, if it's easier. One l uses less manic energy and more expertise. I I used to do songs and really give it a hundred and ninety in the old mentals I'd get a bit crackers. I don't do that any more. I I don't identify quite as strongly with my subject matter as I used to.

Ian Dury29:13

And

Presenter29:13

But you're writing songs currently with Chaz. Yeah, yeah. With Chaz Jankle.

Ian Dury29:15

Oh yeah.

Ian Dury29:18

And the black

Presenter29:18

Are you pleased with them?

Presenter29:20

I'll be going to get to hear them.

Ian Dury29:20

I'm gonna make it.

Ian Dury29:21

In fact, we just recorded a group of songs as a group for the first time in 17 years with Chaz there as well, and they sound good, they sound fresh.

Presenter29:31

Last record.

Ian Dury29:33

Last record is um one of my heroes from my youth. I've always loved jazz very much and in in the late fifties, early sixties, jazz had developed out of Charlie Parker and John Coltrane and Miles Davis and it was we used to call it they called it the Cosanova, the new thing. And All Net Coleman got together with the late and recently departed Don Cherry.

Ian Dury29:57

and a drummer called Billy Higgins and a fantastic bass player called Charlie Hayden.

Ian Dury30:01

And they made a record called Change of the Century, which we we had in our flat in the sixties. We used to know this off by heart. And the bass solo, which we're gonna hear, is where Chas and myself

Ian Dury30:12

It stole the idea for sex and drugs and milk and roll. Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun.

Ian Dury30:23

And I met Charlie Hayden some years after we'd recorded it. I said, Charlie, I I nicked your solo. He says, Okay, it's a Cajun folk tune. I stole it as well.

Ian Dury30:33

And he goes around and around.

Presenter31:29

Ornett Coleman and Ramblin. If you could only take one of those eight records here, which one?

Ian Dury31:35

That one.

Presenter31:35

That one. You really like that.

Ian Dury31:37

Yeah.

Presenter31:39

What about your book? You've got the Bible and you've got Shakespeare already there.

Ian Dury31:43

And I'd like, if possible, please, to have the Macmillan Dictionary of Art in all its thirty four volumes at the cost of five thousand seven hundred pounds, please. That would keep me going.

Presenter31:55

And what about your luxury?

Ian Dury31:55

What a butt.

Ian Dury31:57

Well my luxuries would be a working item which I have in my I've got a room slightly bigger than this table at the moment where I work. And in there I've got an eight track studio with a two track studio underneath it, a mixing desk, a microphone, speakers, da da da da da, and it's all digital.

Ian Dury32:12

I'd need a solar a solar panel on the top to make it work, presumably, and that would keep me happy forever.

Presenter32:19

Ian Dury, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Ian Dury32:22

Thank you.

Speaker 232:31

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.