Jackie Charlton

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety six, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is a footballer. Even if you don't know much about football, you'll know about him. He's one of its great names, the lad from a poor North East mining village who followed his grandfather, uncles, and brother into the game and became one of the team that won England the World Cup in 1966. For twenty-one years he played for Leeds United, appearing for them more than 600 times and winning 35 England caps. When he stopped playing, he took up managing, and for practically 10 years looked after the Republic of Ireland, leading them into the World Cup twice and so becoming an Irish hero. A tough, blunt Geordie, he says of himself as a footballer, The one thing I couldn't do was play, but I was very good at stopping other people playing. He is Jack Charlton. So your skill was not so much as a dynamic force then, Jack, as a man who got in everybody else's way.

Jackie Charlton1:20

Well, that's the way defenders are. I mean, I was as a young boy um never considered to be a player at all. I just was big and I could kick the ball and I could play among the kids in in the park.

Presenter1:31

And you were a tough tackler. You were a fighter.

Jackie Charlton1:31

And you were a tough tackler, you were tough. I was tough and you know, I liked the fight. I now watch referees refereed today and think to myself, uh

Jackie Charlton1:39

Maybe I wouldn't have played now.

Presenter1:41

No.

Jackie Charlton1:41

I'm being able to play now.

Presenter1:42

Moody?

Jackie Charlton1:43

Well, this is when you watch the way they operate on some of the games and some of the things that are punished with yellow cards and red cards, you sometimes wonder

Jackie Charlton1:52

How it would have been in my day, you know, we would probably finish up six aside.

Presenter1:56

So you played rough?

Jackie Charlton1:58

Well the game has to be rough. I mean if you don't play the game rough you you lose something from it. I mean you don't become a great player like Bobby Charlton or Dennis Law when people allow you to play or give you time to play or make excuses that nobody can tackle you to help you to play. You become a good player and a great player through adversity, through having to fight and learn in these situations and how to avoid. So it's all a bit tame for you these days. I think it's a bit it's getting a bit tame. The game is becoming more of a passing game, more of a slow buildup game, more of a continental game than I like. I like the pace, the competition and the the will to win that used to be in English football.

Presenter2:31

Yeah.

Presenter2:36

But you make it sound as if you were just, you know, a big, tough, physical player, as we say, who got in people's way, but in fact it went it ran deeper than that. It was in the genes, wasn't it? Didn't you have a grandfather

Jackie Charlton2:45

Oh yeah, we were brought up in a family m my brother and I and my other two brothers as well were brought up in a family where my mother was the sister of four professional footballers, Jack, George, Jimmy and Stan, who played for various football clubs up and down the country, and Jackie Milburn, who was me my mother's uh full cousin.

Jackie Charlton3:04

So I was brought up in a situation where the only thing you played in Ashington was football. I mean, there was nothing else.

Presenter3:09

But it was your mother that drove it.

Jackie Charlton3:10

Oh, mother drove it, yeah. I mean, she was uh very much uh in love with the game of football. In fact, our our one regret was that she was born a girl and not a boy.

Presenter3:19

Do you remember your first pair of football boots?

Jackie Charlton3:21

Yes, I do. I I bought them um during the war. I saw an advert in the paper and uh my mother gave me ten shillings to go and have a look at these second hand pair of boots. And when I got there they were Mansfield hot spurs.

Jackie Charlton3:33

And I remember looking at them. They they were leather with big hard toes and I thought wo I'd never seen a pair of footballs like them. They were beautiful. And they were about a size too big for me, but it didn't matter I bought them. I argued with the woman. Uh I she wanted ten shillings and I gave her eight.

Jackie Charlton3:49

And I took two showings back to me like

Presenter3:51

And how old were you?

Jackie Charlton3:52

I was about

Jackie Charlton3:54

Six or seven, I think, at that time.

Presenter3:56

So you were a a tough negotiator even then, too.

Jackie Charlton3:57

Well, yeah, I'd I've always been a negotiator. I was brought up in a in a in an area where nobody was very rich and if you wanted anything you had to work for it, and I've always worked for things.

Presenter4:07

Tell me about your first record.

Jackie Charlton4:09

First Records of Franks and Art and September song. I think it's a poignant song because it it it's virtually every person's life when you listen to it through. Uh we have a house in the Yorkshire Dales and it's got and we've got a very old three-piece bedroom suite upstairs. And and and on the dresser it's got like four tiles. The the beginning when you were born uh in your teens.

Jackie Charlton4:33

Sort of the middle part of your life and then the part where the the guy with the sickle comes out and and and when you look at these and they're and they're very old and and you think to yourself, Yeah, you know, that's the four sort of parts of your life. And I always found this Franks and Arta song like that, September song.

Speaker 44:50

When you reach September

Speaker 44:57

When the autumn weather

Speaker 45:04

Turns the leaves to flame

Speaker 45:11

One hasn't got time.

Speaker 45:17

For the waiting game.

Presenter5:21

Frank Sinatra and September Song. So you were born and bred, Jack, in the mining village of Ashington. What are your memories of that childhood home, and g describe the house to me.

Jackie Charlton5:31

Well, the house was we didn't have a bathroom. We had a kitchen.

Jackie Charlton5:35

He went from the front door straight on into the main street.

Presenter5:38

Hmm.

Jackie Charlton5:39

Um

Presenter5:40

The tin bath in front of the fire.

Jackie Charlton5:41

The house was always clean and spotless. I always remember my mother was a very good housekeeper and she would always have the house clean and tidy and uh our curtains were were her main thing in her life.

Presenter5:51

And you and your brothers as'cause you were the eldest, weren't you? Four of you eventually. You all shared a bedroom. You all shared a bed?

Jackie Charlton5:54

Yes.

Jackie Charlton5:57

Yeah, we all shared a bed. I mean, we had a bedroom upstairs, which was me mum and father's, and then we had the big bedroom next door, which we had a double bed in, and Bobby, Gordon, Tommy, and myself used to all sleep in it together in the winter. Not always in the summer,'cause it was a single bed, but in the winter it was very cold. Who slept in the middle was what you always used to fight over, because that was the warmest spot. Who got it?

Jackie Charlton6:21

Oh, usually me.

Presenter6:22

And you, as the oldest, did you have to look after the others? You were in charge?

Jackie Charlton6:25

Oh yeah, very much so. Bobby particularly. I mean, Bobby was I think there's about eighteen two and a two years and eight months between me and our kid.

Jackie Charlton6:34

And uh

Jackie Charlton6:35

I had to take him, traps him round, look after him during the day, make sure that he was okay, and uh I didn't like it.

Presenter6:42

Why not?

Jackie Charlton6:43

Well

Jackie Charlton6:44

I was a

Jackie Charlton6:46

I like the sea, I like the countryside, I like to go bird nesting, I like to go picking blackberries, I like to go mushroom and I like to go pick taties. And Bobby didn't. Bobby was more of a

Jackie Charlton6:56

He liked to play football, he liked to be around my mother, he liked to be at home. And when I had to drag him off somewhere, you know, it wasn't uh

Jackie Charlton7:03

It was I could have done more things without him than I had to do than I could do with him.

Presenter7:07

But as it turned out in the end, of course, he began to succeed where you failed, didn't he? He passed the eleventh place and you'd failed it, and that sort of thing.

Jackie Charlton7:12

Oh yeah, and

Jackie Charlton7:13

Well, that's right, yeah.

Presenter7:14

And of course his footballing talent was spotted very early on and he was courted by eventually all those glamorous clubs from round the country. Did it how much did it stick in your craw? I know people always wanted to know that.

Jackie Charlton7:24

Not at all. I liked playing football, but it wasn't a be-all and end-all of my life.

Presenter7:28

But is that why I wonder'cause he was so much better at you, it seemed, early on, at football is that perhaps why you nearly followed your dad down the pit? Bec because you had living in front of you, every day of your life, somebody who was actually rather better than you.

Jackie Charlton7:42

Well, I know, not really, because I could have gone to Leeds as a player. I could have gone to Newcastle and signed on and played for Newcastle. But I wasn't that interested in football. I was enjoying the sort of life that I had. I had a nice pipe around. I delivered milk in the morning. I delivered groceries after school. That was a good earner as a kid.

Presenter7:59

But your mother was ambitious for you, wasn't she? I mean, she wanted you she didn't want you down the pit. No mother wanted her sons to follow the

Jackie Charlton8:04

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, she didn't want us down the pit. But I wasn't that keen on leaving home.

Presenter8:09

But did she see football as the means of escape? For both of them

Jackie Charlton8:12

Well, football was always a means of escape from Washington or from any northeast town. I mean.

Jackie Charlton8:17

He either worked in the pit or he played football.

Jackie Charlton8:21

And you and when you when when lads that are that are left tashing, they're gonna wait to play football.

Jackie Charlton8:26

If they didn't succeed and had to come back, it was like a disgrace that failed. I didn't want to go away and fail. I think that was probably the reason. I didn't think I would make it. I didn't think I was going to be good enough. But you've got to remember, I actually played football in the first team for Leeds United before our kid even went to Manchester United. I developed very quickly between the age of just coming up to 16 and 17. And I I've actually played in the first team before I went in the army at seventeen.

Jackie Charlton8:52

So I did develop, and I did. Somebody must have seen that I had something to offer.

Presenter8:57

And do you remember how much your first pay pack it was from Leeds United?

Jackie Charlton9:00

Four pound fifty. That was when I was a Grandstaff lad.

Presenter9:04

And now you're a millionaire.

Jackie Charlton9:06

Oh, who told you?

Presenter9:09

Tell me about your next record.

Jackie Charlton9:11

My next one is Crocodile Shoes by Jimmy Nail. I've never met Jimmy Nail. I've I enjoyed watching him on the television on a couple of occasions when I managed to see the programmes he did from the North East. And uh

Speaker 49:22

The girl's shooting.

Jackie Charlton9:24

I loved his song Crocodile Shoes.

Speaker 49:26

Crying too.

Speaker 49:30

For they know how much love I have for you.

Speaker 49:38

Cracker dance too.

Speaker 49:42

Rapido shoes

Speaker 49:45

Crack it down street

Speaker 49:49

Right in the dust room

Presenter9:54

Jimmy Nail and Crocodile Shoes.

Presenter9:57

You've played for Leeds, Jack, for years and years before you were chosen to play for England. How old were you when the call finally came?

Jackie Charlton10:04

I was nearly if everybody gets this mixed up a little bit I was nearly twenty-nine.

Presenter10:08

But can you remember where you were when the call came from?

Jackie Charlton10:11

Oh yeah. I do exactly.

Jackie Charlton10:15

I'd been picked to play for England, but I hadn't been told by Don Revy, the manager. He thought we had we we'd play in Manchester Night in the semi-final of the Cup at Nottingham.

Jackie Charlton10:24

And uh I actually

Jackie Charlton10:26

Had no idea when we went into the semifinal that evening, and we won, and we got through the co-final.

Presenter10:33

And brother Brother Bobby was paying for the 1980s.

Jackie Charlton10:34

Yeah, people come to stay in there, yeah. And we came into the dressing room.

Jackie Charlton10:38

And then Don came across to me and he said, Got some good news for you. He said, I didn't want to tell you before the game, but you've been picked to play for England against Scotland.

Jackie Charlton10:47

And I went, You what? I couldn't believe it.

Jackie Charlton10:50

So I immediately got dressed and I went to the Manchester United dressing room to see our kid and I walked in through the room and all the players, all the Man Year players just sat there with their heads in their hands, you know, it's

Presenter11:00

Depressed.

Jackie Charlton11:00

Oh depressed to a degree after losing the semi final I've gone through a few of them myself.

Jackie Charlton11:06

And I walked across and sat down next to our kid and I said, You'll never guess. And he went, What?

Jackie Charlton11:11

I said I've been picked to play for England against Scotland. And he looked at me and he went

Jackie Charlton11:16

Oh, that's great. I'm I'm delighted for you.

Jackie Charlton11:20

in sort of that tone.

Jackie Charlton11:23

And I mean, I suddenly looked round and I couldn't believe what I had done. I've walked into the semi-final to the dressing room of the team I just lost in the semi-final.

Jackie Charlton11:34

with a smile all over my face, and

Jackie Charlton11:37

And then I suddenly I realized what I'd done.

Presenter11:39

But you're not noted for your tact, aren't you?

Jackie Charlton11:39

But you

Jackie Charlton11:41

I'm not noticed for tact no. I was so overjoyed, it never entered my head. I never thought about it. I just went in to tell our kid.

Presenter11:45

Yeah.

Presenter11:48

And of course, a year later you and Bobby were in that World Cup side, as I said in the introduction against West Germany at Wembley, july thirtieth, nineteen sixty six. Um I gather that you might have been responsible almost for losing it at one point, because you kind of let a goal in almost, didn't you, that first German goal.

Jackie Charlton12:05

I remember seeing the ball come towards me and I sort of half stuck a foot out and I sw I think to this day I could have stopped I could have put a foot to the ball but I thought Gordon Banks was there and the ball wasn't hit that hard. It was the one you sort of saw come in and saw go past you. And it was sort of a l a slight mix up between the two of us and it just

Jackie Charlton12:26

Fit it under Gordon's hand and passed my left foot.

Jackie Charlton12:29

and after it I thought I coulda stop that.

Presenter12:31

Hmm.

Jackie Charlton12:32

But but then again, we we got back into the game.

Presenter12:35

And at the end when you did win, after extra time and all you s you went down on your knees and kind of prayed.

Jackie Charlton12:42

I'm sure I prayed. I don't know what I did. I ran all the way up to get a hold of Jeff first,'cause Jeff had just scored the fourth goal. And I ran all the way up the park after an hour and a half of football and the extra time. And I ran all the way and when I and then Jeff ran off in a different direction.

Jackie Charlton12:59

And I've turned round and I suddenly felt totally exhausted. And I collapsed on my knees and I put my hands in my head. I think I probably did say a little prayer, like thank you, Lord, for that result or whatever.

Presenter13:09

But that day, as I say, july nineteen sixty six a day never to be forgotten. It never is forgotten. Even football fans today who weren't born then, you know, talk about it as if they know it well and went through it with you. And yet you've been quoted since as saying that that was a pleasure that was surpassed later by things you subsequently achieved with Ireland.

Jackie Charlton13:28

People say to me, was that the most memorable day of your life? And I say, Well, not really, because unlike our kid or unlike Bobby Moore, I hadn't been with them for years and years aiming for this. I'd just sort of come in, done it and gone.

Jackie Charlton13:40

The time I felt the the most joy was was winning the league championship with the leads at Liverpool.

Jackie Charlton13:45

when we win it with a record number of points, and we do with Liverpool won uh nil nil.

Presenter13:49

But was even that experience eclipsed by things that happened with Ireland?

Jackie Charlton13:53

That was the main thing as a player. Joys and management are totally different to joys as a player. I mean, you work for a result, you work, you do your job, you're successful, you get to cup finals, you win cups, you win leagues. That's your job. When you're a manager, you've got to look after so many other things. The way the team is prepared, the knowledge that you prepare them with, the amount of information you give them about the opposition.

Presenter14:23

So that joy is not

Jackie Charlton14:24

That joy is not for you, it's for other people. The joy for me was me football, what I achieved. Me joy for other people was what we achieved in Ireland.

Presenter14:33

Tell me about your third record.

Jackie Charlton14:36

Roger Miller, King of the Road. I actually met Roger Miller in Vancouver. I went to see him in concert and I went to the back of the stage and said, Could I meet Roger Moore? And the guy said, Yes, go through, knock on that door. I went through, knocked on the door. The guy came to the door, Roger Miller, and he said, Yes. I said, I'm from England. I would uh I'm going home in the morning. I would like to meet you. And I went in, had a beer with him, stayed half an hour or so, had a great chat, and he was a very charming, nice man.

Speaker 415:02

Trailer for sale or rent.

Speaker 415:06

Rooms to let fifty cents

Speaker 415:10

No phone, no poo, no pets.

Speaker 415:14

I ain't got no cigarettes, but two hours of pushing broom Buys a 8 by 12 4 bed broom I'm a man of means by no means

Speaker 415:30

King of the Road.

Presenter15:32

Roger Miller, King of the Road.

Presenter15:35

Um you retired, Jack, as a player at the age of thirty eight. You went straight into management. This was nineteen seventy three. You ran Middlesbrough and then you ran Sheffield Wednesday and eventually you got to Newcastle. You weren't there very long. But there was a guy there called Paul Gascoigne.

Jackie Charlton15:49

Yes, I spent a year at Newcastle and there was a young lad underground stuff called Paul Gascoigne.

Presenter15:54

But could you spot, then, did you spot that he was

Jackie Charlton15:56

Only when he we played in the Youth Cup final at Watford and uh he was then in a Newcastle youth team which was had some very good players in it. We actually won the Youth Cup that year that and and Gasser played.

Jackie Charlton16:09

and he scored a goal the likes of which I have never seen.

Jackie Charlton16:12

He ran across to the right hand side of the field gaza for a throw in, to take for some a throw in was being taken, just into the Watford half. It he he he ducked

Jackie Charlton16:22

let the ball go over his head, turned and ran with the ball across the field towards the corner flag.

Jackie Charlton16:28

Running across the field and the guy was chasing him all the way across and then he suddenly stopped, checked. The guy slid past him. Paul turned round and the ball was right underneath his feet. And he was about twenty five, thirty yards out from goals. Now in order to chip a goalkeeper from that distance, she would have pushed the ball away a yard and then tried to chip him. But in that time you did that, the goalkeeper would have gone back and picked up a better position. Paul looked up, saw the goalkeeper off his line, and he dug the outside of his right foot

Jackie Charlton16:53

like, scooped it with the outside of his right foot, and the ball s sort of bent, went up in the air, over the top of the goalkeeper, who was going backwards, and the ball bounced on into the into the back of the net.

Jackie Charlton17:06

That was when Gaza was just starting to come through as a player. We put him on a high-protein diet, we used to pay for him to go on a steak.

Presenter17:12

You weren't noted for spending a lot of money, were you?

Jackie Charlton17:15

No, I didn't. I I always felt that when you go into a football club

Jackie Charlton17:20

You should have a good look at what you got.

Jackie Charlton17:22

And uh then when you find out what you need, then replace it.

Jackie Charlton17:27

But you build a team.

Jackie Charlton17:29

There used to be a joke that managers used to say. Now go into the players and say, Now, look.

Jackie Charlton17:34

We've only got four matches to play, have a real effort this time, and then we'll get into the Premier Division, we'll get loads of money and we can go and buy better players to keep us there. It used to be a joke, now it's a reality. It's a reality. And

Jackie Charlton17:48

You never know how people will perform at a higher level until you've given them the opportunity to show you.

Presenter17:53

But it's also all to do with the kind of chap you are, is it that you would

Jackie Charlton17:55

Yeah, I've always been very, very I I was brought up where money was important and you had to earn a living and I've always had to earn a living.

Presenter18:03

And everything might come in useful one day, so you better hold on to it and use it to its full extent.

Jackie Charlton18:05

Hold onto it, use it to its full extent. That's right, maybe I got that from my father, you know. He used to burn wood, used to get the the the the screws out and the nails and he'd straighten them out. Never bought a screw in his life, my father.

Presenter18:15

Record number four.

Jackie Charlton18:18

The Dublin has in dirty old town.

Jackie Charlton18:21

I met the Dubliners years ago when I used to coach in Vancouver many, many years ago and I got introduced to them. They were on on tour out there. And they've become all become friends of mine since, and typically Irish and what the Irish are about. You know, good music, good fun, and enjoy yourself.

Speaker 418:37

I heard a sigh run from the door Saw a train

Speaker 118:46

Damn.

Speaker 418:49

Set the night on fire. I smelled the spring on the smoky wave Dirty old town Dirty old town

Presenter19:08

The Dubliners and Dirty Old Town from a live recording they made in Amsterdam.

Presenter19:12

So, Jack, you were appointed manager of the Republic of Ireland in nineteen eighty six, and immediately and and stubbornly, they say, you imposed your style of what they call kick and rush football on the

Jackie Charlton19:24

No. People that have said that of us are totally wrong.

Jackie Charlton19:27

We had a designer game.

Jackie Charlton19:30

that would frustrate international teams at a level we wanted to compete at. And I had to come up with an I a way of playing that would cause them problems.

Jackie Charlton19:40

Nobody had ever put the defenders i i in into a position to see if they could play.

Jackie Charlton19:46

No, we always assumed they could play because you get so many numbers back and they can head the ball out, they kick the ball away and they they play, but nobody ever really applied what you call pressure. Now I wanted to apply pressure.

Jackie Charlton19:56

I'd seen the World Cup in uh Mexico in it was at eighty six.

Jackie Charlton20:00

And it was like peas in a pod. Everybody played the same way through a playmaker in midfield, and unless the playmaker was in a good position to go with the back four, nobody would commit themselves forward. The the team with the best centre midfield player won the World Cup, which was Maradona playing for Argentina.

Jackie Charlton20:18

And I thought we can't enter this fray.

Jackie Charlton20:21

The way they play.

Presenter20:22

Because you hadn't got enough good players.

Jackie Charlton20:23

We well, we got we got we got we could get the players to play in a similar type of game, but they've had fifteen, ten to fifteen, twenty years start on playing that game. Now for us to went to that fray and play that type of game would have been nonsense.

Presenter20:35

This is because they would be playing with the ball, passing the ball in their own half, which is very dangerous because somebody could come along and shove it in the goal.

Jackie Charlton20:36

I just let

Jackie Charlton20:42

Or somebody could come along and shove it in the goal.

Presenter20:44

So you want to kick and kick and rush means get it up the field as fast as you can out of danger.

Jackie Charlton20:44

Say you

Jackie Charlton20:47

Get it up the field as fast as you can out of danger. No, definitely not, Sue. Definitely not. That was never the way. Everything was designed. Each player had what they were and what were they supposed to do. If we got to the foot the ball to a fullback, what you need to do is you need to hit to to pass the long ball to an area where your player knows the ball is going to be delivered.

Presenter21:09

Hmm.

Jackie Charlton21:09

So he is already on his way there before the defender knows where the ball is going.

Presenter21:14

And it began to work.

Jackie Charlton21:15

And it worked like a charm. We we beat Brazil.

Presenter21:18

But it depended on people playing exactly as you said. You almost as a manager want to program players, don't you? To have an instinctive reaction to do what you want to do.

Jackie Charlton21:26

No, you can program players.

Jackie Charlton21:29

In a way, it's unprogrammed players. See, I give each player one individual thing to do. John Ulridge knew that when Dennis Irwin got the ball at right back, the ball would be knocked in behind the fullback. So John was programmed into going for that. Ray Houghton knew that the moment John got to the ball first, he had to be somebody in front of it.

Presenter21:46

So it was a set thing for them to do. It does make them into automatons to an extent, doesn't it?

Jackie Charlton21:50

Well, yeah, but you see, only to a degree into the last third of the play of the park.

Presenter21:55

Some of your critics in Ireland have said that this was a crude way of playing, that you were taking all that wonderful artistic stuff out of the game where people proved the ball.

Jackie Charlton21:56

And so

Jackie Charlton21:58

No, no, no.

Jackie Charlton22:01

The four artists.

Jackie Charlton22:02

What is football about?

Jackie Charlton22:05

Spa.

Presenter22:05

Oh. Uh

Jackie Charlton22:05

Inning

Presenter22:05

Uh

Jackie Charlton22:05

It's about winning, it's about scoring goals. How you score them and how you go about it is a matter of opinion. Now they might have had a different opinion than me, but I saw what was necessary for us to get results and to move the team.

Jackie Charlton22:17

It amazes me that the teams like Milan and many of the European teams now there's a terminology in European football called um pressing.

Jackie Charlton22:28

We were doing that in nineteen eighty six. But now it's considered a good thing in the game of football, the press. The Irish were pressing people in nineteen eighty six. We invented the game.

Presenter22:40

And as we say, it worked. And you even got to meet the Pope as a result. And the Pope, what is more, recognized Jack Children. What did he say to you?

Jackie Charlton22:41

And it works.

Jackie Charlton22:48

Ha!

Jackie Charlton22:50

I didn't know what to s I didn't want to go to him'cause of all all the lads are Catholics and all the officials are Catholics and I was the only Protestant in the place. And he was talking to little Charlie.

Jackie Charlton23:00

Charlie O'Leary, one of our boot men boot l the lad that looks after the kit.

Jackie Charlton23:04

And uh

Jackie Charlton23:05

And then he turned to me and he and his aide said, Your Eminence, mister This is mister Charlton and he just looked at me and he said, Yes, I know.

Jackie Charlton23:14

He said, uh, the boss.

Presenter23:17

Next piece of music.

Jackie Charlton23:19

Chris de Berg

Jackie Charlton23:21

I I never get it right. I always call him Chris De Burgh, and the wife keeps telling me I'm not saying it properly. But Chris is a good friend of mine, and I've known him quite a few years. He follows the Irish team, and he has done for many years. He sang Lady in Red after we lost to the Italians in Rome at four o'clock in the morning.

Jackie Charlton23:37

uh as the dawn was coming up and he sang it for us and uh

Jackie Charlton23:42

I would have played that one'cause that's my favourite one, but it's been played all the time on radio, so I thought, Well, let's let's go for his Don't Pay the Ferryman, because that's also one of his best songs.

Speaker 423:51

Hear the wild dog howl

Speaker 423:54

No more voices in the night. Don't do it. Voices out of sight. Don't do it.

Speaker 424:02

Too many men have failed before

Speaker 424:08

Don't play the fairy night.

Speaker 424:11

Don't even pick safe price

Speaker 424:14

Don't play the fairy mouth until he gets you to the other side.

Presenter24:20

Chris De Berg and Don't Pay the Ferryman from his album The Getaway.

Presenter24:26

So, Jack Children, you were, as you said, very much an outsider as far as Ireland was concerned. You didn't know much about it before you went there, but they they made you one of them because of all of this success. They made you a freeman of the City of Dublin, an honorary Irishman, the Taoiseach said.

Jackie Charlton24:39

Irish citizen.

Presenter24:39

Can you can you describe what that meant to you as an individual?

Jackie Charlton24:45

In England we don't do that. You you've got to win something. If we'd have won the World Cup, I would have expected it. But when you don't win it, when you get sort of get to the last eight of the World Cup, which for a country the size of Ireland was amazing. I mean, it's the smallest country ever to get that far.

Jackie Charlton25:00

At no real

Jackie Charlton25:02

idea how it would build up, but it didn't happen immediately. It it happened over a period of years when we went to Germany and then when we went to America and then we went to when we went to Italy and

Jackie Charlton25:11

And

Jackie Charlton25:13

And the expectancy of the Irish never changed. They weren't interested that we're not going to win the World Cup. They never even dreamt that w that was a possibility. The they might some of them might have said, We've got a good chance, and we always had a chance. But there was no real pressure applied on me.

Jackie Charlton25:30

The thing was to qualify.

Presenter25:31

But you still sound quite distanced, as it were, from the adulation. You sound like somebody who observed this adulation and and wondered at it. Did it did it touch you somewhere?

Jackie Charlton25:39

I don't I don't like the word adulation.

Jackie Charlton25:46

I like to think of the Irish as friends of mine. I mean, I've I've met thousands and thousands of them. If I stop in a pub or I stop in a restaurant on the way across Ireland, invariably somebody sends me a pint of Guinness over or somebody pays for me meal or somebody that that they won't take the money.

Jackie Charlton26:00

And they

Presenter26:02

You're still observing how they are there, but what does it do to you? What does it make you feel?

Jackie Charlton26:02

Yeah.

Jackie Charlton26:05

What does it make you feel?

Jackie Charlton26:06

I don't know. I don't know. Grateful.

Jackie Charlton26:11

Grateful. I think that's the only word I can use.

Presenter26:14

There's another bit of analysis of Jack Charlton that comes into play here, which is that.

Presenter26:19

All of that success in Ireland was

Presenter26:22

Perhaps even more important to you than it might have been because it was the first time you'd stepped out from behind the shadow of your younger brother, that you did something, you achieved something that he never did.

Jackie Charlton26:33

Not really. I mean, I achieved pretty well. I won competition, said he didn't win. He won competition, said I didn't win. But we had as far as winning things in

Jackie Charlton26:41

and putting things on the table added as well with Edge United as he did with Manchester United.

Presenter26:45

But he never managed a team never achieved that success.

Jackie Charlton26:46

You never well we prepare ourselves in a different way. I was always a coach. I went through my Lillish Old days and I went through all my sessions and I'd spend years and years and years until they made me a staff coach at the age of about twenty-seven. I always wanted to go into management. I'm not sure that our kid was prepared properly for what it was like to make the decisions.

Jackie Charlton27:08

When you get involved in coaching, you've got to make the decision.

Jackie Charlton27:12

And maybe in my character that's a little bit different. I don't know. But jealousy, no. I was sorry that he didn't make it in management. I wish he had.

Jackie Charlton27:20

I wish he had a made it in management. You know, we'd probably been better friends if he had a done. I mean, him moving away and going to be and to be a director and to be looking for the higher echelons of the game of football.

Jackie Charlton27:31

Is maybe what has pushed us apart a little bit over the years. Maybe if it had something in common, like

Jackie Charlton27:38

Problems of being a manager over a period of twenty odd years. Maybe we would have been better friends, who knows?

Presenter27:43

More music.

Jackie Charlton27:46

Red Rose Cafe. We've all been in this sort of situation. And it's a song that we used to sing on the bus when we went to games with the team and with the Irish. And

Jackie Charlton27:57

It but it's but it's happened to me all through my footballing life. You always finished up in Lisbon and Amsterdam and in some Red Rose cafe where you went for a drink and there was always the characters about and the girls sat at the bar.

Speaker 428:10

The cares of the day

Speaker 428:12

Are soon washed away as they sit at a stool by the bar.

Speaker 428:18

The girl with green eyes in the rolling stone shirt Doesn't look like she walks on the land

Speaker 428:26

The man at the end is a very good friend Of a man who sells cars secondhand

Speaker 428:36

Down a careless cafe

Presenter28:40

Red Rose Cafe by The Furies. So, Jack, you you bought your mum and dad um a house uh with your nineteen sixty six World Cup bonus, didn't you? Uh and you looked after her really for for the rest of her life.

Jackie Charlton28:52

Well, I kept in touch with them all the time. And I mean, I've always lived in the northeastern, so I saw quite a lot of them.

Presenter28:58

But you looked after her family.

Jackie Charlton28:59

Yeah, I looked after him. I bought him a house in 1966. For the first time in their lives, they had a a toilet and a kitchen and a bathroom.

Jackie Charlton29:09

And it was it was wonderful.

Presenter29:10

Nice feeling that though for you, to be able to give give them that.

Jackie Charlton29:13

Yeah, it was actually. I mean it it wasn't

Jackie Charlton29:16

particularly that I was the money was quite a lot, it was but it it was uh it was something that I'd always thought that I would do for them when I could afford it.

Jackie Charlton29:26

and get them out of uh of where they lived.

Presenter29:28

Hmm.

Presenter29:29

And then your father died, of course, back in'eighty two, but your m mother died earlier this year, and I think that um most people remember you four Charlton boys carrying her coffin.

Presenter29:40

And people will also remember talk of a rift in the family that Bobby hadn't seen her before.

Jackie Charlton29:45

I don't really want to get involved with that, Sue. Bobby did what Bobby wants to do. I mean.

Jackie Charlton29:51

It was strange to me I couldn't understand.

Jackie Charlton29:55

Why there was a rift between

Jackie Charlton29:58

Bobby and my mother. I couldn't understand it. And I I I really don't understand it to this day from being very much a homeboy and a lad that was his mother's apple of his mother's eye, suddenly

Jackie Charlton30:11

He just stopped going home.

Jackie Charlton30:15

I don't know why.

Presenter30:18

And has that damaged your relationship with him as well?

Jackie Charlton30:20

Oh, I think so.

Jackie Charlton30:22

I think so.

Presenter30:23

How deeply damaged?

Jackie Charlton30:27

Only time will tell.

Jackie Charlton30:29

I don't know.

Jackie Charlton30:30

I mean, I wouldn't ignore him. I walk in and

Jackie Charlton30:34

I have ignored him on the odd occasion, but uh I I regret that. That's silly. That's silly. Life's too short to argue about things like that.

Presenter30:43

And he's still our kid.

Jackie Charlton30:44

He's still our kid, and he's still my brother, and uh I'm sure one of these days we'll

Jackie Charlton30:50

We'll either have a good fight or we'll have a good argument over it.

Presenter30:55

Record number seven.

Jackie Charlton30:58

Christy Moore

Jackie Charlton30:59

and delirium tremens and

Jackie Charlton31:03

It's not a song I know very well of Christie's.

Jackie Charlton31:05

Or I didn't think when I heard the the title. Then when I heard the song, I've been singing it for longy years. And uh it's a good song and it's it's one of Christie's best.

Speaker 431:14

I looked out from under the blanket.

Speaker 431:17

Up at the fireplace and the Pope and John F. Kennedy were staring in me face.

Speaker 431:23

Suddenly it dawned on me I was getting the yoldy teas When the child of Prague began to dance around the mantelpiece Goodbye to the port and brandy that the vodka understag.

Speaker 131:23

I don't believe it.

Speaker 431:34

The Dismidig and the Harpic, The Bottleder often came.

Speaker 431:38

As I sat looking up at the game aside, I could never figure out.

Speaker 431:42

A airman stead upon the surfboard after fourteen points of stove.

Presenter31:46

Christy Moore and Delirium Tremens from his album Ordinary Man. So, Jackie, you could I mean, obviously, from everything you said, and I mean, you're sixty one years old, you could put your feet up to morrow if you wanted to, but if the phone rings and it's a club that wants managing I get the feeling that you'd be there.

Jackie Charlton32:01

Whether I want to go back into the game of football is

Jackie Charlton32:05

I'll find out.

Jackie Charlton32:07

Before the end of this football season, whether I miss it or not, whether I miss the involvement, whether it's time that I called it a day, I will know mi I will know better after I've been out of the job.

Jackie Charlton32:17

for a year or so.

Presenter32:18

But if the call came and it was to manage England let's just put Glenn Hoddle for the purposes of this question to one side a minute you'd be out there like a shot

Jackie Charlton32:26

I would always I've always wanted to manage England. I'd love to have managed England at some stage, but I've never been in a situation where the job was right at the time.

Jackie Charlton32:34

I once wrote a letter and applied, and never got a reply.

Jackie Charlton32:38

And I I can never understand that.

Jackie Charlton32:41

It made me feel a little bit bitter about the way I was thought of in English football. This idea that people think that all I I know about a kick and rush game of football, nonsense. I know the game from A to A to Z.

Jackie Charlton32:52

In every way you want to play, I can play it.

Jackie Charlton32:55

But I play what's necessary to the team that I'm working with and playing with.

Presenter32:59

So you're flexible and you're available.

Jackie Charlton33:02

I'll argue football with anybody in the world.

Presenter33:06

Last record

Jackie Charlton33:07

Last record, Lee Marvin and Wandering Star. I did a bit of this in my time. I've wandered all over the place. And if anybody's followed a Wandering Star, it's been me.

Jackie Charlton33:19

Yeah.

Speaker 433:20

Nundra Wan.

Speaker 433:27

Mud can make you prisoner and the plains can bake you dry

Speaker 433:31

Snow can burn your eyes, but only people make you cry.

Speaker 433:36

Home is made for comin' from, for dreams of going to.

Speaker 433:41

Which with any luck will never come true.

Presenter33:46

Lee Marvin and Wandering Star, and what's more, I can tell you Jack Charlton can sing better than him. It sounded quite good to me. If you could only take one of those eight records, Jack, which one would it be?

Jackie Charlton33:51

Uh

Speaker 433:51

You know what I can't

Jackie Charlton33:51

It sounded quite good to me.

Jackie Charlton33:57

If I could take one of the eight records, I think it would be September Song by Frank Sinara. I've listened to them all my life up to now.

Jackie Charlton34:06

And why change?

Presenter34:07

What about a book? You've got the Bible and Shakespeare there.

Jackie Charlton34:10

The book I wanted really was was the one on survival.

Jackie Charlton34:14

I would like uh encyclopedia of how to survive in the wild and uh just to help me along with what I already know.

Presenter34:22

It's probably against the rules'cause it's a bit practical, but I think if that's what you want.

Presenter34:26

And what about a luxury?

Jackie Charlton34:28

Luxury

Jackie Charlton34:30

Fishing rod

Jackie Charlton34:31

I have to have a fishing rod. I mean

Jackie Charlton34:33

I expect to get some hooks with it. I mean, I can sit all day on the rocks, catchin' nothin'.

Jackie Charlton34:40

And just looking around and relaxing and enjoying it and with the expectancy that I might get something.

Jackie Charlton34:47

Of course on a desert island I would have to catch something, so a fishing rod

Jackie Charlton34:51

would also be a necessity.

Presenter34:54

And it should make you happy.

Jackie Charlton34:55

Oh, it would make me very happy.

Presenter34:57

Jack Charlton, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island disc.

Jackie Charlton35:00

Thank you, Shoe.

Speaker 135:08

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.