Rumer Godden

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety six, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway this week is a novelist. In her long life she's in her late eighties she's published more than fifty books, many of them set in India, where she lived for much of the first half of her life. They reflect her own experiences, clashes between parents and children, prejudice, sexual jealousy, and poverty. Her most famous novel, Black Narcissus, was a huge success when it was published in 1939.

Speaker 10:47

Uh

Presenter0:53

It, like the River and the Greengage Summer, was turned into a popular film. One of her more recent works, The Peacock Spring, was dramatised on BBC One this year, and the latest is on her window sill in Scotland, waiting to be sent to the publishers.

Presenter1:07

Popular and enduring rather than critically acclaimed, she once said that one of the advantages of never being fashionable is that you can never be out of fashion. She is rumour godden. And it's it's difficult to say you have ever been out of fashion rumour, because you've been permanently in print for years now.

Rumer Godden1:22

Press.

Rumer Godden1:25

Yes and yes. There's one thing that I am my contemporaries.

Presenter1:25

Yeah.

Rumer Godden1:29

Wanted Fra Books

Rumer Godden1:32

Wasn't money or success, though of course we wanted those.

Rumer Godden1:36

But it was for the books to last.

Rumer Godden1:41

I have had

Rumer Godden1:43

Luckily for me, a little taste of them.

Rumer Godden1:47

Black Narcissus

Rumer Godden1:49

was written in nineteen thirty eight.

Rumer Godden1:52

and it has never been out of print in some part of the world since.

Presenter1:57

So that's what, forty eight, forty nine, nearly fifty years.

Rumer Godden2:00

Nearly fifty years.

Presenter2:01

But you haven't, as I said in that introduction, necessarily been critically acclaimed. For example, Margaret Drabble hasn't included you in her companion to English literature. Does that irritate you at all?

Rumer Godden2:13

Yeah.

Presenter2:13

No, but

Rumer Godden2:14

Girls, I can quite understand it. They are what I would call cerebral writers.

Rumer Godden2:20

And I am only a storyteller.

Rumer Godden2:24

I'm a deeply feeling one. They've called you a sweet author.

Presenter2:24

Yeah.

Presenter2:26

For your sweet

Presenter2:28

Do you object to that? Do you object to being called sweet?

Rumer Godden2:32

Yes, because it's a lie.

Rumer Godden2:35

I'm not in the least afraid.

Rumer Godden2:37

You take Green Ear to summer.

Rumer Godden2:40

A young girl who betrays her lover.

Rumer Godden2:44

and hands him deliberately over to the police.

Rumer Godden2:47

Because she's peaked with them.

Rumer Godden2:49

That's not sweet.

Presenter2:51

What about the Peacock Spring, the the the young English girl who becomes pregnant by the Indian boy?

Rumer Godden2:56

The Indian boy. Not at all sweet. Horrifying.

Presenter2:59

Oh.

Presenter3:00

Why is it horrifying?

Rumer Godden3:02

The details of

Rumer Godden3:06

inhumanity and prejudice and narrow-minded on the part of the British.

Rumer Godden3:12

It's really quite a political novel.

Rumer Godden3:16

Tell me about your first record.

Rumer Godden3:18

Um first record is

Rumer Godden3:21

From my latest.

Rumer Godden3:23

films set in India. There have been other very beautiful ones, like The River, in fact it was Renoir.

Rumer Godden3:30

And it's the last one. And like all Indian films, it has.

Rumer Godden3:37

Background music

Rumer Godden3:41

I mean, I don't know how much

Rumer Godden3:43

You know about Indian music.

Rumer Godden3:46

But the great thing is that it's played over and over and over again.

Rumer Godden3:51

It goes on for hours.

Rumer Godden3:53

So that there's always a lot of background music.

Rumer Godden3:57

To me, very eloquent.

Presenter4:53

The theme music of the B B C adaptation of The Peacock Spring and that music was composed by Dominic Muldowni, and The Peacock Spring was of course written by my castaway, Ruma Godden.

Presenter5:05

Now, you were brought up rumour during the First World War in India.

Speaker 45:08

In India

Speaker 15:09

Uh

Presenter5:09

You're a little girl of five, um, on the banks of a Bengali river, because your father.

Speaker 45:09

Little girl

Speaker 15:10

Uh

Presenter5:14

Organized the river traffic, and there were vast amounts of it. You always lived on the banks of the river.

Rumer Godden5:19

Where is the villain?

Presenter5:20

Can you just give me a picture of that, the the the sight and the smell of that place? Well it was

Rumer Godden5:26

Yeah.

Rumer Godden5:26

I think in France.

Rumer Godden5:28

One's whole life.

Rumer Godden5:30

And people have no idea of the drink.

Rumer Godden5:34

Gigantic size.

Rumer Godden5:36

Of the rivers, our particular river is the Megla.

Rumer Godden5:39

was two miles from bank to bank.

Rumer Godden5:43

something of that flow and calm.

Rumer Godden5:48

and space.

Rumer Godden5:49

I think influenced our childhood.

Presenter5:51

Very much.

Presenter5:53

And yours, I think, was a rather grand house and household, wasn't it, that you lived in, on on the banks of chauffeurs and guards?

Rumer Godden5:58

So that's a good idea.

Presenter6:01

It's

Rumer Godden6:03

I mean, people did there in India. But as a matter of fact, no governess would stay with us.

Presenter6:09

Why?

Rumer Godden6:09

We were most unruly.

Presenter6:11

You were not sure.

Rumer Godden6:12

There were four of us, yes.

Presenter6:13

What did you do?

Rumer Godden6:15

Why don't we just live our life to ourselves?

Rumer Godden6:18

And I'm always

Rumer Godden6:20

Extremely grateful we didn't have sensible parents, because in those days

Rumer Godden6:25

In hot weather.

Rumer Godden6:28

Women and children.

Rumer Godden6:30

were sent to the hills or back to Europe.

Rumer Godden6:33

Not my mother.

Rumer Godden6:35

She took us to a different part of India, every year.

Rumer Godden6:39

And so we grew up, I think, knowing.

Rumer Godden6:42

Perhaps more of India.

Rumer Godden6:45

The Many Indians.

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But people would have said we were deprived.

Rumer Godden6:51

Because there were no schools, there were no libraries, there were no brownies or

Rumer Godden6:57

so forth, that make up a Trail's world. That's you.

Rumer Godden7:01

Wrote forever, always when we had no books, we wrote our own.

Presenter7:06

How old were you when you began to write?

Rumer Godden7:10

Six.

Presenter7:11

Yeah.

Rumer Godden7:11

And what did you write? Novels.

Rumer Godden7:14

About what highly coloured. I also wrote my autobiography when I was eight, which was totally inaccurate.

Rumer Godden7:21

And my father lost.

Rumer Godden7:24

And I said I'd never write again.

Presenter7:25

Don't

Rumer Godden7:27

But my father said it was a mercy the house had so many waste paper baskets.

Presenter7:32

And you don't remember.

Rumer Godden7:34

A time when you didn't write? I can't remember a time when I didn't write. There was a flow that never stopped, and I think it came from those rivers.

Rumer Godden7:43

Uh

Presenter7:43

Tell me about your second record.

Rumer Godden7:46

It's a record which I've always loved very much.

Rumer Godden7:50

Because it's so simple, and as played by Herods.

Rumer Godden7:55

It is.

Rumer Godden7:56

of great beauty, and is called really dreaming.

Rumer Godden8:01

And it suited my childhood, absolutely,'cause half the time I wasn't there.

Rumer Godden8:08

I was in my own world.

Presenter9:05

Vladimir Horowitz playing Troumerai, part of Schumann's Kinder Seinen Opus fifteen.

Rumer Godden9:09

The Empress

Presenter9:11

There seems to have been one blot on this otherwise idyllic childhood rumour, and that is that that you were the ugly duckling of the four sisters. How much did that hurt?

Rumer Godden9:20

The four sisters.

Presenter9:23

Terrabre

Rumer Godden9:23

Yeah.

Presenter9:24

Ha ha ha.

Presenter9:25

They were all.

Presenter9:27

Uh

Rumer Godden9:27

Very, very attractive.

Rumer Godden9:29

And what did you look like?

Rumer Godden9:32

I inherited

Rumer Godden9:35

The Hingley Nose.

Rumer Godden9:38

and hadn't grown up to it as a child. That's that's on your mother's side, is it? Yes, on my mother's side. And I remember one day at lunch, and I know my father he always joined us for lunch.

Rumer Godden9:49

And he looked down the table at me.

Rumer Godden9:52

And I know he didn't mean to be hurtful, he was just thinking it out.

Rumer Godden9:57

And he said, Where did that child get that face?

Rumer Godden10:02

And nearly broke my heart. I went out and

Rumer Godden10:05

sobbed amongst the canaries that are so high that they hid you.

Rumer Godden10:12

Uh

Presenter10:12

And it's interestingly, it it is almost a theme that crops up in your books. You're this child who lives in the shadow of the elder sister. Yes, and indeed in the river, I think. And it's the elder sister who is elegant and lovely and often captures the hearts of the older men who come by. Is that what happened?

Rumer Godden10:16

Mm-hmm.

Rumer Godden10:18

Your

Rumer Godden10:21

Elvis, yes, nah.

Speaker 110:23

Uh

Speaker 110:25

Uh

Rumer Godden10:25

Yeah, I

Rumer Godden10:31

Yeah.

Presenter10:33

That is exactly what I'm doing.

Rumer Godden10:34

Uh

Rumer Godden10:35

After we'd been in England at school and left school and came back to India.

Rumer Godden10:41

I was very plump.

Rumer Godden10:43

and very earnest.

Rumer Godden10:46

and every young man would flee at the sight of me, but she used to stand there in the ballroom, and she'd say, I'm sorry, I won't dance with you unless you dance with my sister.

Rumer Godden10:57

But as you say you can

Presenter10:57

Came to this country to school after the First World War.

Rumer Godden11:00

Uh

Presenter11:02

Uh you had a terrible time, you two girls, together, your elder sister John, in in a convent school, so

Speaker 411:03

But

Presenter11:09

That guaranteed that nuns at some point in your writing life were going to get a a less than flattering appearance.

Speaker 111:09

Guarantee.

Presenter11:14

But what is interesting is you went on to a school in Eastbourne, didn't you, and at last found somebody who recognised your writing? Yes.

Rumer Godden11:22

Yes, it was the vice principal.

Rumer Godden11:25

She wasn't only a very good teacher, but she'd been a dramatist in her own right, and she worked with Michel Saint Denis.

Rumer Godden11:33

And he said it's no use keeping you in classes.

Rumer Godden11:37

Would you like to come out and work alone with me?

Rumer Godden11:41

Well I worked for Mona for two years.

Rumer Godden11:44

I never wrote her a single story.

Rumer Godden11:48

What did she do?

Rumer Godden11:51

I spent the first term producing The Leader of the Times to fourteen lines.

Rumer Godden11:58

I did.

Rumer Godden11:59

comparing the consonants of Milton's

Rumer Godden12:03

Il Ponsaroso

Rumer Godden12:05

with those of Loregro to see how got his he got his effect of of sadness and gaiety.

Presenter12:13

She also, I think, imposed um on you

Presenter12:17

Um, the idea that you shouldn't have anything published until you were twenty five. Why did she do that?

Presenter12:23

Because

Rumer Godden12:26

Well, we see it ourselves.

Rumer Godden12:28

So many young stopped brilliantly.

Rumer Godden12:32

and burn themselves out.

Rumer Godden12:34

A lot of the writing nowadays is very shoddy.

Rumer Godden12:39

Very surely, because they don't know.

Rumer Godden12:42

They don't know what.

Rumer Godden12:43

Grammar. They don't know grammar. They don't know.

Rumer Godden12:47

Feelings, words that don't work with reference books and thesaurus. So you believe.

Presenter12:53

Do you there's always a right word, and you will keep

Rumer Godden12:56

I

Presenter12:56

Yeah.

Rumer Godden12:56

I was thinking about it.

Presenter12:56

I was thinking until you find that word.

Rumer Godden12:59

I always remember a quotation of T S Eliot's.

Rumer Godden13:02

He said you were writing a poem.

Rumer Godden13:05

And you were committed to it.

Rumer Godden13:08

And you spent the whole of a day.

Rumer Godden13:10

Trying a word on the poem.

Rumer Godden13:13

And every time the poem is said, No, not that.

Rumer Godden13:17

Which I always think is a lovely thing to say. So there's always a right word. There's always a right word, but you have to find it.

Rumer Godden13:25

And you've got to listen.

Rumer Godden13:27

They don't listen.

Rumer Godden13:30

Tell me about your third record.

Rumer Godden13:32

Well, as a relief from all this.

Rumer Godden13:36

Concentrated literary work.

Rumer Godden13:38

I turn to my number two, love.

Rumer Godden13:42

I mean, I haven't the talent for it, but I turned to it and um became a dancer.

Rumer Godden13:53

It was the ballroom dancing that was so lovely in those days. You had none of the jumping up and down and the jigging and the

Rumer Godden14:02

Big jam.

Rumer Godden14:03

It was very smooth and very, very clever.

Rumer Godden14:07

And there was a thing called body line.

Rumer Godden14:10

If you were dancing, say, Snowfoke's trot,

Rumer Godden14:15

Between the couple's bodies.

Rumer Godden14:18

No chink of light should have been seen.

Rumer Godden14:21

You are absolutely together, I think.

Rumer Godden14:24

and your head was high and your hands were absolutely still.

Rumer Godden14:30

And you glide it.

Rumer Godden14:32

The steps are so smooth that it is as beautiful to watch as it was to dance.

Presenter15:19

Stormy Weather from Duke Ellington and his famous orchestra F capital O

Presenter15:25

You were Rumour Garden, it seems to me, perhaps still are, a a rebel all the way through, weren't you? You've always disliked rules and formality per se.

Speaker 115:30

Moleway.

Speaker 115:32

Always

Rumer Godden15:34

Formality per se.

Presenter15:35

In fact, you you really adopted rather a racy lifestyle in Calcutta in your twenties, and you broke a lot of rules.

Rumer Godden15:40

In your twenties.

Rumer Godden15:42

Rules. Yes, I broke a lot of rules.

Rumer Godden15:44

And one of the things I did.

Rumer Godden15:47

whilst to open a school of dancing.

Rumer Godden15:50

And no go.

Rumer Godden15:54

Oh, young woman.

Rumer Godden15:56

in Kolkata society with any kind of name.

Rumer Godden15:59

Earned their living. It was understood they didn't do it. Nice girls didn't do it. Nice, yes, yes, mm, exactly. But you were a bad girl.

Presenter16:06

You will sound good.

Speaker 116:08

Uh

Rumer Godden16:09

And particularly dancing.

Rumer Godden16:12

Most dancing schools in India were brothels.

Presenter16:16

But you had fun. You loved it.

Presenter16:18

You were doing what you wanted to do. Yeah.

Rumer Godden16:18

You were doing what you

Presenter16:20

And social life was good. You weren't ostracised as a result, were you?

Rumer Godden16:26

Where are you?

Rumer Godden16:28

And I got very um indignant about the Eurasian girls.

Rumer Godden16:35

because Calcutta had eagles and beagles.

Rumer Godden16:40

Agirls went away in the hills or back to Europe or wherever.

Rumer Godden16:46

and then the young men were allowed to take the B girls to the clubs.

Rumer Godden16:52

But if you met a young man you knew

Rumer Godden16:55

And he was with Bee Girl.

Rumer Godden16:58

You had to cut it.

Rumer Godden17:00

Otherwise it was embarrassing for him.

Presenter17:03

And that was presumably eventually why you wrote your second novel, The Lady in the University of Manila.

Rumer Godden17:07

And I was moved to write my second novel. And I did what

Rumer Godden17:12

my husband very much disapproved of.

Rumer Godden17:17

I used to go wandering in those streets on foot.

Rumer Godden17:21

Uh

Presenter17:21

But just going back to b before you were married, because the the point here is, isn't it, that that you had to get married because you found yourself pregnant.

Rumer Godden17:30

Yeah.

Presenter17:30

Can I do you mind if I just ask you about that? Was it was it a terrible, terrible disgrace when you found you were pregnant?

Rumer Godden17:36

Uh

Presenter17:36

Uh

Rumer Godden17:36

Yeah.

Presenter17:38

Yeah.

Rumer Godden17:38

I absolutely refused.

Rumer Godden17:41

Which the doctors wanted to do and my husband wanted to do, take the baby away to abort.

Speaker 417:48

Brilliant.

Rumer Godden17:48

Was that possible then? Yes, if you paid. Is that what nice girls did?

Presenter17:51

Then we

Rumer Godden17:54

And I absolutely refuse. This was my baby.

Rumer Godden17:57

Uh

Rumer Godden17:58

My first husband, who is very charming man.

Rumer Godden18:01

Um

Rumer Godden18:02

Said, Well, you'll have to marry me and pretend you like it. He knew you were not of the kind. And of course the sad fact is that you lost that baby, didn't you? Yes, two days.

Rumer Godden18:13

and found myself with a marriage.

Rumer Godden18:16

That was incompatible.

Rumer Godden18:19

And also

Rumer Godden18:21

He was a stockbroker.

Rumer Godden18:24

and he had gambled on the stock exchange and was deeply, deeply in debt.

Presenter18:30

And by this time you had two small daughters.

Rumer Godden18:35

And I found myself completely impoverished.

Rumer Godden18:40

and par ill in Kashmir.

Rumer Godden18:45

Yeah.

Presenter18:45

Tell me about your fourth record.

Rumer Godden18:47

Yes.

Rumer Godden18:48

You can imagine what it is like.

Rumer Godden18:52

After five years

Rumer Godden18:54

in that isolated

Rumer Godden18:56

Little Cashmere house, I saw no Europeans. Suddenly it come back to England.

Rumer Godden19:03

and be plunged.

Rumer Godden19:05

Interlondon life, and not only London life, but London literary life.

Rumer Godden19:11

and it was like a sort of whirligoke round me.

Rumer Godden19:15

And then mysteriously

Rumer Godden19:18

I sort of found a purpose.

Rumer Godden19:21

I had a sort of cold and I became a gathered.

Rumer Godden19:25

in the midst of that.

Rumer Godden19:27

and found great peace.

Rumer Godden19:29

The next piece of music will hear the

Rumer Godden19:34

Adam.

Rumer Godden19:35

Universal.

Rumer Godden19:37

aspect of the Roman Catholic Church.

Speaker 419:49

Back up.

Speaker 419:57

Te compassion de no soul.

Presenter20:24

Part of the Agnes Dei from Ariel Ramirez's Missa Criola, performed by Los Fronterisos and the choir of the Cocoro Basilica, conducted by Father JG Segado.

Presenter20:36

You said of of your book The River, Ruma, The River is one of those rare books that are given to you. What was different about that? What does that mean?

Speaker 120:42

Uh

Rumer Godden20:42

No, what

Rumer Godden20:44

Yeah.

Rumer Godden20:45

Yeah.

Presenter20:45

Yeah.

Rumer Godden20:46

The book is vouchsafed you.

Rumer Godden20:49

when it suddenly

Rumer Godden20:51

Descends is all you can call it.

Rumer Godden20:54

and the end of the war when I came back to Calcutta.

Rumer Godden20:58

I was asked by the um women's voluntary sets.

Rumer Godden21:03

To tour.

Rumer Godden21:05

A province of India.

Rumer Godden21:07

Because Lord Boyne has raised questions in Parliament about the role.

Rumer Godden21:13

that British and American women were playing in the war.

Rumer Godden21:17

And so I went on my tour.

Rumer Godden21:20

which took me back to Dhaka.

Rumer Godden21:23

Usually the steamer

Rumer Godden21:26

would leave the Gourt.

Rumer Godden21:28

and turn round and go up street.

Rumer Godden21:30

and this steeber bet

Rumer Godden21:34

and backed and backed and backed and backed.

Rumer Godden21:37

So it was like looking through the long end of a telescope.

Rumer Godden21:43

And it got smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller.

Rumer Godden21:47

and the little temples and the burning ghosts and the steps and everything became minuska.

Rumer Godden21:54

and instead of going to my cabin and writing my report, I went to the cabin and wrote the rumour.

Presenter21:59

And that coincided with your life being at a pretty low ebb, didn't it?

Rumer Godden22:03

And a very little rap.

Rumer Godden22:05

When I came back to um

Rumer Godden22:08

England.

Rumer Godden22:09

Because of the troubles in Cashmere, as you know, I got into trouble at Cashmere with a servant who attempted to poison me.

Rumer Godden22:17

And um

Rumer Godden22:18

I had to leave everything.

Presenter22:22

And when you arrived back in this country you had the manuscript of the river in your bag.

Rumer Godden22:25

And I turned at this just a few things. I had I had a suitcase.

Rumer Godden22:31

with a few clothes in it for the children.

Rumer Godden22:34

I haven't uh

Rumer Godden22:36

A Persian rug, which may

Rumer Godden22:39

Kashmiri Friend.

Rumer Godden22:42

Disgraceful man.

Rumer Godden22:44

induced me to buy because she said it would be for a rainy day.

Rumer Godden22:48

And in my suitcase I have

Rumer Godden22:52

The manuscript of the river.

Rumer Godden22:54

So we could start again.

Presenter22:56

Would you say, rumour, that you're writing

Presenter23:00

has been the most important thing in your life.

Presenter23:03

perhaps even on occasions.

Presenter23:06

What I'm saying is more important than your children.

Presenter23:10

I don't think it could

Rumer Godden23:11

I says it like that.

Rumer Godden23:14

You're born one.

Rumer Godden23:17

You ain't born to have children.

Rumer Godden23:19

You had to.

Rumer Godden23:21

when born to get married, though in the normal cursed way you do get married.

Rumer Godden23:27

But if you have a gift

Rumer Godden23:30

Painting, music.

Rumer Godden23:33

Writing

Rumer Godden23:36

It's not a question of

Rumer Godden23:38

Loving one more than the other or more important than the other.

Rumer Godden23:44

I mean I always say.

Rumer Godden23:47

It's a gift. But it's not a gift that you can ignore.

Rumer Godden23:51

No.

Rumer Godden23:51

Yeah.

Presenter23:51

It is something that demands your attention.

Rumer Godden23:51

It's some

Rumer Godden23:54

Your attention answers your attention.

Presenter23:55

All of the time.

Rumer Godden23:57

Yes.

Rumer Godden23:58

And you have to discipline yourself to live an ordinary life with it, if you're going to have children and

Presenter24:05

Tell me about your fifth record, Ruma.

Rumer Godden24:08

With the bails.

Rumer Godden24:11

I love very much because my life has been one of

Rumer Godden24:15

Extraordinary changes.

Rumer Godden24:18

And I don't know any other piece of music.

Rumer Godden24:21

So pecked with different styles of music.

Rumer Godden24:26

which I always love it. It will never come to the end, I suppose.

Presenter25:28

Part of Berlio's Symphony Fontastique, played by the Philadelphia Orchestra, conducted by Eugene Ormondy.

Rumer Godden25:33

D

Presenter25:34

You've written children's books, too, Rumor the Prize winning Didakoi, The Mouse Wife, and The Doll's House. How great a difference is there in writing for children as opposed to adults?

Rumer Godden25:37

Did you

Rumer Godden25:39

Those have

Rumer Godden25:45

Okay. And

Presenter25:45

Agree.

Rumer Godden25:46

deal with difference.

Rumer Godden25:48

I try and write a children's book between every novel.

Rumer Godden25:52

Simply because of the discipline.

Rumer Godden25:56

You know, people write letters to me and say I thought I'd start with something easy.

Rumer Godden26:01

Then it's writing a trivial book.

Rumer Godden26:04

But it's the most

Rumer Godden26:05

Difficult form of writing extra poetry.

Rumer Godden26:09

and the younger the child,

Rumer Godden26:12

the more difficult it is. Why? Because you've got to hold them at every moment. Yes, you've got to hold every moment.

Rumer Godden26:19

You.

Rumer Godden26:21

have got to choose your words. I mean, not basic English or anything like that, but choose words.

Rumer Godden26:28

that convey

Rumer Godden26:31

And add

Rumer Godden26:32

to the few words you have, because you have very much fewer words.

Rumer Godden26:36

And also you can't have

Rumer Godden26:39

A lot of description.

Rumer Godden26:41

Daddy boarding description.

Presenter26:43

But at the same time you can't patronize children, can't can you? But they're very they're very discerning.

Rumer Godden26:46

But they're very discerning.

Rumer Godden26:49

And they're your best critics.

Rumer Godden26:53

Uh

Presenter26:53

'Cause they say what they think. What you don't do, as I understand it, is an ac is accept an advance for a book, the money up front. Why why don't you do that? Every other writer does.

Rumer Godden27:05

I would do it on a biography.

Rumer Godden27:09

Does you know

Rumer Godden27:11

It's going to be a publisher.

Rumer Godden27:13

But if you do it on a I don't like using that

Rumer Godden27:18

To me presumptuous word, creative.

Rumer Godden27:21

but imaginative work.

Rumer Godden27:23

Directly you accept money.

Rumer Godden27:26

You put yourself into a straightjack.

Rumer Godden27:30

And I see these young people.

Rumer Godden27:33

It was common practice nowadays.

Rumer Godden27:37

They have an idea.

Rumer Godden27:40

and they have to write a synopsis.

Rumer Godden27:44

Of the first chapter.

Rumer Godden27:46

or show the first chapter.

Rumer Godden27:48

And

Rumer Godden27:50

The editors commission it.

Rumer Godden27:53

or not collection it on that.

Rumer Godden27:57

Well, have you done on your first chapter?

Rumer Godden27:59

That's nearly always the one you want to throw away.

Rumer Godden28:04

And if you have a synopsis, sure as eggs are eggs, is it your books going to turn out different?

Rumer Godden28:10

I see what you mean about a straight jacket.

Presenter28:12

Will you?

Rumer Godden28:12

I mean you you just are unable to allow the thing

Presenter28:13

Just are unable to allow the thing to develop naturally.

Rumer Godden28:16

And you can't pay it back because you probably spent it. So you have to write the kind of book you don't want to write.

Rumer Godden28:24

Tell me about record number six.

Rumer Godden28:26

Well, it just is that all music.

Rumer Godden28:31

to me.

Rumer Godden28:33

The human voice is the most wonderful.

Rumer Godden28:36

And one of my very favourite songs, and I know it's one of the most difficult.

Rumer Godden28:41

Is the Countess's area from Figaro in the midst of all the fun?

Rumer Godden28:47

you have this beautiful and absolutely plaintive area.

Speaker 429:14

I mean,

Presenter29:45

The Countess's song, Porghi amour, from Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro, sung by Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, accompanied by the Philemonia Orchestra conducted by Carlo Maria Giulini.

Presenter29:55

I suspect rumour that the solitariness of a desert island would suit you, wouldn't it?

Rumer Godden30:00

Yes, we would.

Rumer Godden30:02

I mean I need

Rumer Godden30:04

So much time to myself.

Rumer Godden30:07

And I can never have enough time. Because of the writing. Because of the writing. Because of the need to write and to go on and on. And need to write and need for my spiritual purposes.

Presenter30:13

And here goes.

Presenter30:14

Yeah.

Presenter30:21

What you self-evidently are not is an elderly lady who's been a sweet novelist in her time, as we were talking about at the beginning.

Speaker 130:29

John.

Speaker 130:30

What a

Presenter30:33

W would you like w applied to you, what do you feel it would be a a fitting epitaph? Certainly not sweet, as we've said. Determined? Or accomplished. What what do you like for yourself?

Presenter30:47

It's hidden for six.

Rumer Godden30:49

So that be conceded.

Rumer Godden30:51

Well, we allow a little conceit. I think distinguished.

Rumer Godden30:56

Distinguish because distinguish just doesn't mean.

Rumer Godden31:01

High up.

Rumer Godden31:03

It means you're different from everybody else.

Rumer Godden31:08

And

Rumer Godden31:10

I think I feel that.

Rumer Godden31:12

I mean, my reactions are very often so totally different.

Rumer Godden31:17

that they puzzled people.

Speaker 431:19

Hmm.

Rumer Godden31:20

Tell me about your seventh record.

Rumer Godden31:23

That is impressive.

Rumer Godden31:25

Everybody knows it.

Rumer Godden31:26

It's an absolute cliche.

Rumer Godden31:29

But I love it very much because it allows

Rumer Godden31:34

My love of music and dancing.

Rumer Godden31:37

Because that little piece in music

Rumer Godden31:40

dances by itself without even a dancer.

Presenter32:43

Part of Chopin's Les Silphide, played by the ballet theatre orchestra conducted by Joseph Levin. So you'll you'll dance on the sand, rumour, on this desert island, and think up your next story.

Rumer Godden32:51

On this desert.

Rumer Godden32:54

Yeah.

Presenter32:55

Your current next novel, as I said at the beginning, is on your window ledge in Scotland. Yes. What's the process? How many readings or rewritings does it go through before you finally submit it?

Presenter33:07

Uh

Rumer Godden33:07

Gotcha.

Presenter33:07

Yeah.

Rumer Godden33:08

Ah, that depends. On the book.

Rumer Godden33:11

I vary.

Rumer Godden33:13

From one, it took me eight years.

Rumer Godden33:18

One might write itself in about five months. This one has taken two years.

Rumer Godden33:24

And I couldn't tell her why.

Rumer Godden33:27

Yeah.

Presenter33:27

Everything that you write, Ruma, has a seed. Somewhere in your life, in your experience, little grit, I call it.

Rumer Godden33:34

The average.

Rumer Godden33:36

Yeah.

Presenter33:36

Order.

Rumer Godden33:36

Um little seed of experience.

Presenter33:36

Uh

Rumer Godden33:40

And what happens to that little bit of grit?

Rumer Godden33:42

For some reason and again we're back to the mystery

Rumer Godden33:46

It secretes itself in your mind.

Rumer Godden33:49

And then next

Rumer Godden33:51

gathers round it.

Rumer Godden33:53

All the rest of its stories. What you mustn't do is impose a story on it.

Rumer Godden33:58

You let it find its own story.

Presenter34:00

So it's it's

Rumer Godden34:01

It's like a

Presenter34:01

It's like an oyster secret.

Rumer Godden34:02

And of course the result is very seldom poll.

Presenter34:02

It's a very

Speaker 434:07

Hmm.

Rumer Godden34:08

But it is very like an oyster.

Presenter34:10

And um

Rumer Godden34:11

Yeah.

Presenter34:11

You're eighty-nine later this year, and you haven't run out of little seeds irritating away there yet, have you?

Presenter34:18

Well, temporarily, I'd like a little wrist.

Presenter34:22

But do you think you'd

Rumer Godden34:23

Ever give up writing? No.

Rumer Godden34:25

You don't

Rumer Godden34:27

Give up writing.

Rumer Godden34:29

If you're a bone writer and two writing gives you up.

Rumer Godden34:33

There will come a time to me when I will have writers block.

Rumer Godden34:37

And I can't write any more. But you haven't had it for eighty-four years since you began at the age of years, but it might happen any minute.

Presenter34:42

She began at the age of

Rumer Godden34:46

I always say

Rumer Godden34:48

When I feel now really is time. I think God says this to me, now come along, it's time you went off.

Rumer Godden34:56

And I say, well, just let me finish this novel first.

Rumer Godden35:01

And then we'll have a sea.

Rumer Godden35:04

And he usually does.

Presenter35:06

Mm.

Presenter35:07

Yeah.

Rumer Godden35:07

Uh Australia.

Rumer Godden35:10

This is a piece of music that I love very much.

Rumer Godden35:14

And I played

Rumer Godden35:16

Usually at night.

Rumer Godden35:19

When I'm at it.

Rumer Godden35:22

when I am near despair.

Rumer Godden35:26

I mean, people think writing is a peaceful occupation. It's anything but

Rumer Godden35:31

You write up there and then you'll write down there. When you get to your periods of utter down.

Rumer Godden35:37

And you know you're not going to sleep in yogurt.

Rumer Godden35:40

But it's going to be difficult.

Rumer Godden35:42

I play this.

Presenter36:41

Claudio Arrow playing Benediction de Dieu d'Au Solitude by France Liszt. If you could only take one of those eight records, Ruma, which one do you think it would be?

Presenter36:52

Possibly dreaming.

Presenter36:55

Memories of your childhood.

Rumer Godden36:57

Hmm.

Presenter36:58

What about your book? You've got, as you know, the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare.

Rumer Godden37:02

Yes.

Rumer Godden37:04

I would take

Rumer Godden37:06

Edith Sitwell's Book of Atlantic Poetry.

Rumer Godden37:09

because it has American and French as well as English.

Presenter37:14

And what and what about your luxury?

Rumer Godden37:16

True.

Rumer Godden37:19

Well, I hesitated about this.

Rumer Godden37:23

I would like to take

Rumer Godden37:26

A Widow's Cruise.

Rumer Godden37:28

Most people don't know what a cruise is.

Rumer Godden37:31

But it's like

Rumer Godden37:33

A poem Earthenware.

Rumer Godden37:36

Breadben with a lid.

Rumer Godden37:39

And in Biblical days there was a great famine.

Rumer Godden37:43

And the prophet Elijah was

Rumer Godden37:46

Starving.

Rumer Godden37:48

and he met a widow.

Rumer Godden37:50

carrying a cruise, and I'll start making him a little cake.

Rumer Godden37:55

And she said, I can't, because I've only got a handful of flour.

Rumer Godden38:00

and a spoon of oil.

Rumer Godden38:02

And that's for my little son and me.

Rumer Godden38:05

But all the same she made him the cake.

Rumer Godden38:08

And then she lamented.

Rumer Godden38:10

Now my cruise is empty.

Rumer Godden38:13

And Elijah said, It will never be empty again as long as you live. It'll be always filled to the brim.

Rumer Godden38:23

So I want a Willis Cruise.

Rumer Godden38:26

And it'll be filled to the brim.

Rumer Godden38:29

but not with flour and oil.

Rumer Godden38:33

Mine will be filled with whisky.

Rumer Godden38:37

Uh

Presenter38:37

Rumegodden, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 138:48

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.