Jimmy McGovern

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety six, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway this week is a playwright. Brought up in a poor family, he couldn't talk until he was eight or nine. He left school at sixteen, became a teacher in his late twenties, and then started writing for a living. For seven years he wrote scripts for Brookside. Three years ago, he was asked to write for a new television series about a criminal psychologist. It was called Cracker, and it's turned out to be the television drama of the nineteen nineties, so much so that its author has been able to wheel out all his rejected work on the back of it, proving with films like Priest and Hearts and Minds that he was always a great talent waiting for the moment of discovery. Here's Jimmy McGovern. Let's start with Cracker, Jimmy, a television detective for the 1990s, as I say. How much was Fitz your creation and how much that of the producer?

Jimmy McGovern1:17

It was an awful lot of me and him, you know. At my worst I was Fitz at his worst. At his best he was the kind of person I aspired to be.

Presenter1:26

So at his worst he's what a gambler and a boozer.

Jimmy McGovern1:26

So actually

Jimmy McGovern1:28

Yeah, and a smoker.

Presenter1:30

And at his best, women would you aspire to be?

Jimmy McGovern1:30

Uh

Jimmy McGovern1:32

Um at his best he's a man in pursuit of a pure motive. He's a fine man at his best, a caring, compassionate man.

Jimmy McGovern1:39

Oh, I'm very rarely there.

Presenter1:41

He's also a witty man, is that you?

Jimmy McGovern1:43

No, it takes me an awful long time to think of them. I envy people like Fitz. I envy Robbie Coultrane. There was one night when

Jimmy McGovern1:50

It was at a cracker rap party and he had us all in stitches. He was absolutely brilliant, and then at the end of the night he played the piano brilliantly too, and I hated him.

Jimmy McGovern1:58

You know, and I can never be like that. All those witticisms take me hours and hours and hours to dream up.

Presenter2:04

So none of it is Robbie Coltrane. He doesn't bring the wit to the script. The script is yours entirely.

Jimmy McGovern2:08

Uh it's nearly always on the scr off the page. All the wires cracks are off the page, but occasionally he throws in a few of his own. He he threw in a beauty about garden gnomes once, which I I I've told everybody it was mine.

Presenter2:21

But he was the one thing that that wasn't your creation or your thought. You presumably when you were told'cause you wanted this man with sex appeal and all the rest of it when you were told you were getting a kind of

Jimmy McGovern2:24

Thought yet

Presenter2:32

Fairly hefty, funny man To play this role, you must have thought they were mad.

Jimmy McGovern2:36

I was suicidal. I thought it was the biggest mistake ever made.'Cause I had this guy, this thin, wiry guy, in mind. And Like you, really? Well, yeah, well, I I used to be thinner and more wiry than this. And then they said Robbie Foul Train. I was just amazed. I was going to walk. I was on on the phone to my agent.

Presenter2:43

Like you really

Jimmy McGovern2:52

And then uh the first few rushes came out, and he was absolutely astounding.

Jimmy McGovern2:57

And he he lost weight for the part early on. He lost a bit of weight, he looked sharp. He was sharp. His brain is so quick, you know. He's perfect.

Presenter3:04

But why do you think it works as a piece? It's interesting, isn't it?

Jimmy McGovern3:09

I think part of the reason is the why. You know, people are so fascinated about why people, you know. I mean, for years they've been Inspector Morse and a kind of intellectual pursuit of the criminal.

Jimmy McGovern3:19

And now to have a guy who investigates why.'Cause I I was always a fan of the human jungle, Herbert Lom. But Herbert Lom used to just say, This is wrong with you. You set fire to the hamsters at school and end the programme. There was there was no in-depth probing with Herbert Lom.

Presenter3:34

But this is all about the confession, isn't it? I mean, that's what you all you're not you're not building up to the big arrest, you're building up to the big confession.

Jimmy McGovern3:36

And that's what you

Jimmy McGovern3:40

Yeah, yeah. But it's pure drama, isn't it? Because you can go on and on for hours with those interrogations, and we often did.

Presenter3:47

The other big why is why cracker. Why is it called cracker?

Jimmy McGovern3:51

It was only ever a working title and uh I I I could remember cold sweats'cause I thought, w you know, we're a hostage to fortune here. Cracker, damp squib. I saw all the headlines, you know. And uh it was a working title that just stuck.

Presenter4:05

But why cracker? What does it mean?

Jimmy McGovern4:07

Yeah, Ascub Neil is this type of I I've just noticed. He said something about um crack and cracker can mean crackpot, it can mean firecracker, it can mean cracker like uh some kind of Chinese puzzle.

Presenter4:10

The producer.

Jimmy McGovern4:19

Eh, I'm not sure, but.

Presenter4:20

Anyway, it worked.

Jimmy McGovern4:21

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter4:22

Enough of Fitz. Let's let's learn more about McGovern. Tell me about your first record.

Jimmy McGovern4:27

Yeah, well, I I've picked this for my mum and it's just a song my mum used to sing going around about the house. You know, this little two up, two down with loads of kids and not very much money at all, and this woman singing When I Fall in Love, it stayed with me ever since.

Speaker 44:40

I fall in love.

Speaker 44:46

It will be forever.

Speaker 44:51

Or I'll never fall.

Speaker 44:56

Beloved.

Presenter5:01

Natkin Cole and When I Fall in Love. It must have been a very um rewarding experience when you became hot property, as it were, in the television script writing world. It was nineteen ninety three, wasn't it? And the phone started to ring. Was it as a direct result of Kraker?

Jimmy McGovern5:16

I think it probably was, yeah. I'd worked really hard, you know, and I'd been working hard on hearts and minds, and particularly priest, which was always my ambition, priest, you know.

Jimmy McGovern5:26

But I I I was just a writer, same as e everybody else, you know.

Presenter5:29

But Cracker hadn't been hadn't come out on the screen, had it? It was just kind of known in the business that that that they were after you.

Jimmy McGovern5:34

Yeah, word got out that it was good. And I thought to myself, This is a winner because all the men in suits materialized. Success has many fathers. Failure is always an orphan. And when the men in suits came around I thought, This is a winner.

Presenter5:47

So who rang up first? So this was ITV that was considering cracker, and word got out that you were hot. So who rang up first?

Jimmy McGovern5:55

I think it was the B B C for Priest and then it was Channel Four for Hearts and Minds. But in fairness Channel Four, I'd been working on Hearts and Minds a long, long time.

Presenter6:05

But it had all been going a bit slowly.

Jimmy McGovern6:06

It had been gone very slowly.

Presenter6:07

So these were scripts that they'd tucked away in their drawers, as it were, these

Jimmy McGovern6:11

Well, they were sort of work in progresses, you know, all my scripts are working. I I've got this stamp which says work in progress. I dare not call anything a draft. And uh so th it was all work in progress in a way and you know, maybe it would have got made if I hadn't done Cracker, but Cracker con at the very least it concentrated people's minds.

Presenter6:27

But does that kind of experience make you feel sort of angry or are you just resigned to the fact that, you know, one day nobody much wants to know and you're just left in the drawer and the next minute everybody wants to know? What does that make you feel?

Jimmy McGovern6:39

I'm quite blasé about it now, you know, and it happened to me at the right time, but I'd hate to have gone through this when I was 35. Also, a further thought is you spend all your life and you write all your best stuff trying to get to a position whereby you can write what you want to write, but once you reach that position, you've already written it and you haven't got any more ideas and your energy levels down. I've seen that happen time and time again with writers. Is that where you are?

Presenter7:02

Is that where you are?

Jimmy McGovern7:03

Crackhead took an awful lot out of me, Hearts and Minds and Priests took even more out of me.

Jimmy McGovern7:08

And um I'm sort of conserving my energy now. I haven't got the same amount of energy as as I had on the way up, you know, and now I'm nearly at well, I'm I'm nowhere near the top, but I'm sort of th three quarters of the way up that ladder now. But I'm feeling a bit tired. It's been it's been hard going.

Presenter7:23

And it's all happened in such a a short period really in a sense, although you've been trying to get there for a long time. I mean the things that you just mentioned, you know, the big the the the big pieces, you've actually put together in the last, what, five years or less?

Jimmy McGovern7:26

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern7:28

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern7:31

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern7:32

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern7:35

That's right, yeah, yeah. Really, really, really quick. But I had loads of energy and uh you'd been banging on the door and then all of a sudden it's open and my God, you go through it, you know, and the energy level is high.

Presenter7:46

But what advice do you give to a struggling writer who's banging on that door, and who may well have, you know, equally good material, maybe an equally great talent, but they're not letting him through?

Jimmy McGovern7:56

Well

Jimmy McGovern7:57

I don't know, you just gotta stick at it. Do y your hundred episode of EastEnders or Brookside, who knows, you know. The door might open, but you gotta be lucky, you know, and in the right place at the right time.

Presenter8:05

You gotta

Presenter8:09

Record number two.

Jimmy McGovern8:10

The reason I picked this is because I can remember the f the very first record player, my father bringing us into the house, one of those red plastic things. And uh we didn't have a record. We we we now had a record player, but we didn't have a record. Now, my mum used to spend an awful lot of time in the pawn shop'cause it was a pawn shop economy and she was to talk at the Streetford, the pawn shop. So we sent next door and asked them for a loan of a record, and the record they sent was this one, and my mum went deserved.

Speaker 48:37

She'll tell you somewhere there's a rich millionaire who is calling again about eight

Speaker 48:47

There's a pawn shop on a corner in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania And I've just gotta get five or ten Five or ten From the pawn shop on a corner in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Gotta be with my

Presenter9:04

Guy Mitchell, and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So you were born, uh, Jimmy McGovern, just after the war, in Liverpool, Catholic working class family, fifth of nine children, pawn shop on the corner. You knew a lot about being poor. How poor? What was it like?

Jimmy McGovern9:19

Uh we were quite poor, you know. Um we had a father who worked really, really hard, so he earned his poverty.

Jimmy McGovern9:25

We were well fed, well cared for, but we were poor. It was okay to be poor then in the primary school, but as soon as I passed the eleven plus, I mixed with kids who weren't poor, and that's the only time I became aware of the fact that we were poor.

Presenter9:40

But the kids made you aware of that.

Jimmy McGovern9:41

other kids who you know, because in the old street everybody was poor, you know, there were kids running around with no shoes on their feet. But once I went to school with kids who were quite rich I mean, not rich, but fathers with doctors and that kind of thing. Er, that opened my eyes.

Presenter9:56

Well, they they made fun of you,'cause your clothes were

Jimmy McGovern9:58

No, the kid no, the kids the kids were normally okay, it was the staff. I think the staff couldn't handle poor kids. All those problems that th that are there, you know, low self esteem. I used to crack a lot of jokes, misbehave in class. And it wasn't because I was poor, but you know, there were all kinds of other reasons as well. You know, I had a stammer as well.

Jimmy McGovern10:16

I found an awful lot of the staff just couldn't handle it.

Presenter10:18

Tell me about the stammer,'cause you literally didn't speak properly until you were eight or nine, did you?

Jimmy McGovern10:22

I know. I had to have to I had to have this interpreter who was my elder brother Joey. And I remember coming home once from school, primary school, going, Yo, yo, and all my mum heard was doctor, so she went she sent for Joey. Panic, panic.

Jimmy McGovern10:37

He's saying something about the doctor and Joey had to come, you know, from school and hear me out and translate. And I was saying, The Doctor said I was as strong as an ape, you know. But my mum just panicked. But I had to have an interpreter. I don't know why. I was quite bright. It wasn't anything like that, you know.

Presenter10:47

The

Presenter10:48

Yeah.

Presenter10:53

But was there a moment when suddenly the words burst through and you were able to speak?

Jimmy McGovern10:57

No, no, there wasn't. I've always had problems with my speech.

Presenter11:00

But you became became intelligible at some point.

Jimmy McGovern11:03

Oh, yeah, you're round about. I'm not sure how old I was when I became intelligible, but uh I you know, as far as I was concerned, I was always intelligible. It was their fault. Everything I said made perfect sense. But um

Presenter11:14

It's a character, actually, the stutterer, that turns up a lot in your plays. I think that the first murderer in the first cracker had a stammer. Well, he was very articulate when he was angry. Is that a thing?

Jimmy McGovern11:17

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern11:18

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern11:22

But he was very

Jimmy McGovern11:24

Yeah, that wasn't the very first cracker, no. That was a guy called Sean in in the three-parter. He had a stamina, he got very violent when he couldn't communicate.

Presenter11:33

And he also hit his side to try and force the words out. Is that what you did?

Jimmy McGovern11:33

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern11:37

Yeah, I used to do that. Is that what you did? Yeah, I used to do that, yeah. The worst thing of all in school was having to say nine o'clock Mass and Holy Communion every Monday morning. And to get the n out, the nine out, I'd bang the side. And then of course in the playground the kids would follow would walk after me, banging the side and contorting their faces. And I I found it contagious. Like lots of kids started to stammer. It was just like I was I was spreading this germ, you know.

Jimmy McGovern12:02

I hated it then, but now I'm quite proud of it. You know, it's part of me, and it's helped. You know, I quite like the man I am now, with all my faults. And when do you stay?

Presenter12:08

And when do you stammer now?'Cause you're not stammering at the moment.

Jimmy McGovern12:11

Yeah, but I'm being very careful now in talking to you'cause I'm constantly switching words, you know. I mean, that's the worst thing to do, really, switch words, you know. I haven't come out yet as a stammerer. I'm always constantly switching words.

Presenter12:11

Uh

Presenter12:21

Well use a word that you know you can get out as opposed to one that

Jimmy McGovern12:23

I suppose

Presenter12:24

Might get stuck.

Jimmy McGovern12:24

Might get stuck.

Presenter12:26

And and then when you began to write, I mean, what was writing well, is there a link perhaps between the stammer and the writing? That in fact when you wrote you were fluent?

Jimmy McGovern12:34

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And and I could pick the apt word, you know. Because I'm a word switcher, even as a child, I had loads of words at my disposal. My vocabulary was wide because I was constantly, you know, pick this word, pick that word, choose that word. But when I came to write, I could pick the the mo just as that's the word, the the apt word, you know. And the worst thing that ever happened to me, of course, is one day the school teacher asked me to read out my essay.

Jimmy McGovern12:59

Which had all the words in.

Jimmy McGovern13:01

That were just right, but which I could never say.

Presenter13:04

Tell me about your next record.

Jimmy McGovern13:05

I haven't picked this for the fact that I I used to stand on the cop, which I did do, you know, it's it's just meant a lot to me all my life, this song. And it it was played at my father's funeral.

Jimmy McGovern13:14

And she'll never walk alone.

Speaker 413:15

When you

Speaker 413:20

Who a star?

Speaker 413:23

Hold your hand.

Speaker 413:26

And the bike

Speaker 413:29

And uh

Speaker 413:32

Be afraid.

Speaker 413:35

Have good.

Speaker 413:42

At the end.

Presenter13:44

Jerry and the Pacemakers, and you'll never walk alone. Um tell me about this Jesuit grammar school you went to, Jimmy, because it sounds well, I dunno, reactionary, vindictive, downright cruel, actually. I mean, you were beaten for a start, weren't you?

Jimmy McGovern13:57

Yeah, with a whale bone bound in leather, you know, and and there's this set ritual. You used you used to get a card with the number on it, say four or six, and then you had to go all morning, and then at break you'd go up to this office and hold your hand out, get the card signed, four or six, hold your hand out, and get whacked.

Jimmy McGovern14:16

And there'd be all kinds of little kids outside the office laughing, wetting themselves that somebody was having pain inflicted upon them.

Presenter14:22

But what had been your crime? What kind of thing?

Jimmy McGovern14:24

If you spoke in class or you know you failed to do your homework, you were beaten. These are Jesuit priests. With every single whack they are teaching these kids to change their ways through cowardice, through fear of pain. And they thought they thought that was wise.

Jimmy McGovern14:39

It was an absolutely horrendous skill.

Presenter14:41

And you

Jimmy McGovern14:42

And my son went there.

Presenter14:43

You sent your son.

Jimmy McGovern14:44

He wanted to go, yeah, but it had changed in the meantime. You know, it's now run by Christian brothers who who aren't quite as vindictive as those Jesuits were.

Jimmy McGovern14:53

Yeah.

Presenter14:53

And they whipped you in the showers as well.

Jimmy McGovern14:55

Well, there was one priest and he he he did have problems with sexuality, repressed homosexuality, and he he used to take a football team and he'd come in and whip us.

Jimmy McGovern15:05

Priesthoods were gods.

Jimmy McGovern15:07

And people knew what was going on.

Jimmy McGovern15:09

And nobody said anything.

Presenter15:10

Why not?

Jimmy McGovern15:11

I've no idea.

Jimmy McGovern15:12

I have no idea. This is the early sixties, you know, when

Jimmy McGovern15:16

I think the early 60s was still Pope Pius XII. You know, things hadn't changed that much.

Presenter15:21

And yet your depiction of priests in the film priest is is sympathetic controversial maybe, but never inhi i i inherently sympathetic. There's one priest who's

Speaker 115:29

Yeah.

Presenter15:31

having an affair with his housekeeper. There's another who who's gay, the the the main role, and and then there's a bishop who swears like a trooper. But basically a charitable, a sympathetic approach to priests. Where did that come from? Why?

Jimmy McGovern15:42

See you when?

Jimmy McGovern15:44

It's it's because every time I've needed priests they've been there and they've been good priests. Not the priests that who taught me, not those Jesuits, but ordinary priests now, you know. When I came away from that school I didn't wanna I didn't wanna know anything about the Catholic faith or the priesthood or priests. But I got to be in my thirties and I changed slightly, you know.

Jimmy McGovern16:04

And uh I I can remember the church in the aftermath of Hillsborough in 1989. The Catholic Church was wonderful in our city. And on the death of my father there was a wonderful Catholic priest. At times of grief they've been there and at times of joy I've had the kids christened Catholic. You know there are one or two individual priests and that's the best advocate for the faith, you know. I mean I'm not a practising Catholic anymore, but a good priest is the finest advocate for the Catholic faith ever.

Presenter16:31

But at the age of sixteen you didn't feel like that, and at that age you you turned your back not just on Catholicism but on education as well. You just left and wait, didn't you? You'd had enough.

Jimmy McGovern16:33

Linda

Jimmy McGovern16:37

Was it left?

Jimmy McGovern16:39

Yeah.

Presenter16:40

Record number four.

Jimmy McGovern16:42

At that age I used to play football on the weekend and over night time we'd all go out. I we were all fifteen, sixteen and uh we we used to have a few pounds beforehand and there was a a place called Martins and we were all sixteen, seventeen year old kids and we all used to dance away. I couldn't dance.

Jimmy McGovern17:00

And there was a a young girl there and she was the epitome of the sixties, long blonde hair, eyes of blue, and she terrified us.

Speaker 417:18

With your long blonde hair and your eyes of blue The only thing I ever get from you Is sorrow

Presenter17:38

The Merzes and Sorrow. Let's jump a few years now in the life of Jimmy McGovern. Go to the mid seventies, by which time you're in your mid twenties, you're married, you've got three children, you're living in a council flat, you've been a bus conductor and a porter, and you've worked in a car factory and so on, and you've become a gambler.

Presenter17:57

How much did you gamble?

Jimmy McGovern17:59

It wasn't an awful lot of cash in a way because I wasn't earning those kind of wages, you know, I was just a poor man, really, a poor working class man.

Jimmy McGovern18:07

But I could lose all my wages.

Presenter18:09

On a Friday night, just like that.

Jimmy McGovern18:09

On a Friday

Jimmy McGovern18:10

Yeah, on a Friday afternoon unfortunately, the worst time of my life was I went over to find out the price of East Germany to draw with Brazil in a World Cup game.

Jimmy McGovern18:19

And I was only in that betting shop about a quarter of an hour, and I lost a lot. I lost all my wages.

Jimmy McGovern18:23

In a quarter of an hour. It's a wee advice. What you do is you you have a bet. It loses.

Jimmy McGovern18:30

You you have a conscience, you know, you've lost you've lost this cash that your wife and kids ought to have had, you go chasing that money.

Jimmy McGovern18:36

And you lose that. You have five pounds, you have ten pounds, you have twenty pounds and you don't you you started off chasing that fiver.

Jimmy McGovern18:43

You end up chasing forty, fifty quid.

Presenter18:45

And this of course is all in fits as we've seen.

Jimmy McGovern18:47

Yeah.

Presenter18:47

He i in in Cracker would stop when he was on his way to do something very important, like deliver a lecture or interview a suspect or something, and suddenly stop and listen to a race on a phone. He he had that need to. There's there's some kind of buzz.

Jimmy McGovern18:59

The buzz, yeah. I can't quite understand Fitz though, because I can't see the void in Fitz's life, you know, with the kind of job he does. I think there was a void in my life. I don't mean with the the family, they were great, I loved them, you know. But I felt I had things to offer, and boring, mundane jobs w w w were weren't the outlet.

Presenter19:20

But you said before now that that gambling fills a kind of creative void. Can you explain that?

Jimmy McGovern19:24

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern19:26

I honestly think if you stopped people writing out their bets, you would stop them gambling. It's that notion of.

Jimmy McGovern19:34

Changing a piece of paper and a pen.

Jimmy McGovern19:37

into profit.

Jimmy McGovern19:39

And being able to say, I exercised my judgment and I was right. You know, it's creative. It really is creative.

Jimmy McGovern19:46

Yeah, but it's far better if you have the kind of job where you can exercise your judgment anyway and and and get the kudos if you're right. But if you haven't got that kinda job, the answer is

Jimmy McGovern19:56

Have a bet.

Presenter19:57

So, how bad did it get? You were losing all your wages. Did you steal to feed the habits? Some people were.

Jimmy McGovern20:03

No, there was always a temptation there though. I I understand that. No, I I just had a tough wife.

Jimmy McGovern20:08

And she just put her head down and battled on.

Presenter20:11

So, how did you stop, or perhaps you didn't?

Jimmy McGovern20:11

How do you

Jimmy McGovern20:13

I became a student teacher. I got I got involved in higher education. That that just changed my life.

Presenter20:18

But do you still have a bet?

Jimmy McGovern20:19

Oh yeah, but I that that's the funny thing. I I can afford to lose the odd few bob now. I'm going to lose a good few bob on Liverpool this season, as a matter of fact. But I don't need to go chasing it. I can write it off to experience.

Presenter20:30

More music.

Jimmy McGovern20:32

When I was a school teacher I did this wonderful school play about a school and it was called A Brick in the Wall. At the end of that play I remember this kid who was a lovely lad marching all down the aisle. It ended in a custard pie fight and it saved one custard pie and I just saw this kid marching right down the aisle and giving it to me right in the face. You know, but it was a wonderful night. So Pink Floyd, another brick in the wall.

Speaker 421:00

Yeah.

Speaker 421:01

Teacher!

Speaker 421:02

Believe in pins of old

Speaker 421:09

No, it's just a metal brick in the wall

Speaker 421:18

No, you're just a little breaking the wall.

Presenter21:24

Pink Floyd and Another Brick in the Wall. Let's talk about education then and Hearts and Minds, four-part series which went out.

Presenter21:32

In early 95 on Channel 4.

Presenter21:35

That presumably was your experience, really, as a new teacher, going in full of enthusiasm and idealism and becoming desperately disillusioned.

Jimmy McGovern21:43

Yeah, that yeah, it was spotted.

Presenter21:44

Was it that bad?

Jimmy McGovern21:46

Um it may have been me as well, you know,'cause lots of school teachers have still got enthusiasm and commitment, you know. I just lost mine in a short space of time, so but

Jimmy McGovern21:56

I I thought it was pretty grim at times.

Presenter21:58

But i in in the piece, In Hearts and Minds, where you've got teachers attacking pupils literally and physically attacking them, parents attacking teachers certainly verbally.

Jimmy McGovern22:02

Literally and

Jimmy McGovern22:04

Pair

Jimmy McGovern22:05

Egypt

Presenter22:07

Pupils harassing teachers' families. Did all that happen to you?

Jimmy McGovern22:11

I was constantly aware of an undercurrent of violence. Keep it down, keep it down. Once it breaks, it breaks. And

Presenter22:21

This was in an inner-city Liverpool school.

Jimmy McGovern22:23

Oh no, it was this was a school in the leafy suburbs, you know. I mean, it had it had a fair working class intake.

Jimmy McGovern22:28

It had black kids, white kids, Asian kids. It was a good comprehensive school.

Jimmy McGovern22:33

The school I taught in was not the same type of school as portrayed in Hearts and Minds.

Jimmy McGovern22:37

But the same problems were there. Like

Jimmy McGovern22:40

Here's a school teacher.

Jimmy McGovern22:42

He's not even trying any more.

Jimmy McGovern22:44

But you can't sack'em.

Jimmy McGovern22:45

Here's a staff room where you walk in there and y your your heart dies, your heart sinks. The the lack of energy, the lack of commitment in the staff room.

Presenter22:55

That seemed to be the message, certainly, of hearts and minds, that it was the teachers that were at fault, that they were bored and boring, they were unimaginative, they were lazy.

Jimmy McGovern23:00

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern23:03

Uh

Presenter23:05

That it wasn't the fault of the kids or the parents, it's the teachers at fault. Is that your view?

Jimmy McGovern23:05

That it

Jimmy McGovern23:09

It's the tea.

Jimmy McGovern23:11

That was part of my experience, you know. But I taught some awful kids as well, you know, kids, kids you wanted to throttle. And I've come across some awful parents. But I've got to say, I came across some disgraceful teachers, bone idol, no energy, no commitment. And

Jimmy McGovern23:29

At the time I taught, I ran football teams, I did the school play, I loved it. And these days there are lots of comprehensive schools that can't turn out a football team as the staff are not prepared to give the time.

Jimmy McGovern23:42

I just find that hard to believe.

Presenter23:43

But were you as unsuccessful as Drew Mackenzie in Hearts and Minds? Did you, in the end, despite all your hard work and your willingness, as you say, to give up your spare time to produce the school play or to run the five aside or whatever it is

Jimmy McGovern23:55

Device.

Presenter23:55

Yeah.

Presenter23:56

Were you not appreciated like him?

Jimmy McGovern23:59

I was by the kids. I taught some smashing kids. No, I think what happened with me is I just got tired. I got by on enthusiasm and commitment, and that's not enough. You've got to have some kind of technique there as well. And also it coincided with the start of Brookside. Brookside was starting up then, and so all my initial enthusiasm was ebbing away.

Presenter24:18

Record number six.

Jimmy McGovern24:19

This is the old Brookside tune because I loved Brookside in those days and I think it's l it's lost its edge a bit now, it's lost its way a bit now. But uh the the old Brookside and the old Brookside tune because Brookside means so much to me.

Presenter25:01

Brookside theme, but the old one which was when my castaway, Jimmy McGovern, was writing for it. Brookside really gave you this way out. It gave you the leg up you were looking for really, didn't it?

Jimmy McGovern25:11

He added.

Presenter25:12

How how competitive was it? Because it's a team of writers, I mean twelve or more, isn't it?

Jimmy McGovern25:16

Yeah, it oh, it was amazingly competitive in those days. We we used to have all these meetings and we'd all get passionate and shout each other down, insult each other. But

Jimmy McGovern25:28

It was all for the good of the show, in a way, you know.

Presenter25:30

But would you wait for a call to say you were writing it that week?

Jimmy McGovern25:33

Oh yeah, it used to happen every fourth Friday afternoon. You'd have your storyline meeting and you'd know the phone would ring the following Friday and that meant a couple of thousand pounds and you wanted that phone to ring. And you'd sit there all day looking at the phone, you know, and then it would ring and it would be some other writer asking if you'd heard anything. Get off the phone, they might be ringing. You know, that's the way you'd go on. And eventually it would dawn on you'd round about half past four or five o'clock that no, you were not going to be chosen this month. It's next month maybe.

Presenter26:00

They hadn't bought your ideas.

Jimmy McGovern26:02

Yeah.

Presenter26:02

But when when they did, you were writing a lot of scripts for the Grant family, weren't you? The the working class Catholic family. So there was a lot of Jimmy McGovern in them, a lot of your anger, your passion, your politics.

Jimmy McGovern26:12

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern26:13

Yeah, there was, yeah.

Presenter26:16

So what about then, if you put so much of yourself into these scripts, what about the darker side of Fitz? You said the gambling's yours and the boos and the fags, but he often talks

Jimmy McGovern26:23

Yeah.

Speaker 126:23

Yeah.

Speaker 126:25

Do you

Speaker 126:26

View.

Presenter26:28

There's a lot in that script, um, a kind of relish about man's desire to rape or murder. Where does that come from?

Jimmy McGovern26:32

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern26:34

It is not comfortable.

Jimmy McGovern26:35

I suspect he's fairly honest, Fitz, and I think he says an awful lot of things that an awful lot of men feel uncomfortable with.

Jimmy McGovern26:43

But I think he speaks the truth. I think all men are potential rapists. You know, that's a feminist argument. But it's my argument. I think there's a tremendous capacity for evil inside us all.

Presenter26:52

That's a very depressing view of the world, isn't it? I think uh and that's what comes through, I suppose, in Cracker, is that there's there's little optimism there.

Jimmy McGovern27:00

Mm-hmm.

Presenter27:00

Do you really think the world is such a dark place, or is it just for the purpose of drama?

Jimmy McGovern27:05

It is for the purpose of drama and in Kraker there are huge issues there, you know, uh an issue like racism and rape in in the same programme. That's huge to tackle.

Jimmy McGovern27:14

But I think I approach that with honesty and integrity, and it's dangerous stuff.

Jimmy McGovern27:19

But it's not there because I want to shock people.

Presenter27:22

But that's what the critics have begun to say, isn't it? That that that there is a just a a naked desire to shock, that that you glorify violence. People have become

Jimmy McGovern27:28

Yeah.

Speaker 427:28

Uh

Jimmy McGovern27:30

Yeah.

Speaker 427:30

But it

Jimmy McGovern27:31

Uh

Presenter27:32

you know, having been initially

Speaker 427:32

You know

Presenter27:34

So, in praise of cracker, I have now said that it's descended.

Jimmy McGovern27:38

Yeah.

Presenter27:38

Can you defend that or do you think perhaps they're right?

Jimmy McGovern27:42

The most violent thing I ever saw in my life was 1982, when I was in a pub in Manchester, and the Belgrano was sunk.

Jimmy McGovern27:49

and people in the pub cheered.

Jimmy McGovern27:51

and stamped the feet.

Jimmy McGovern27:52

I I said to myself, Those people should be on that ship and see what death is like, see these young men drowning.

Jimmy McGovern27:59

And I think maybe there's an argument for more violence.

Jimmy McGovern28:02

on our screens, as long as we see what real violence is.

Presenter28:06

How does the one justify the other? I mean, how does putting

Presenter28:10

You know, pretty raw naked violence on the screens in things like Cracker justify that.

Jimmy McGovern28:16

Because in the first case uh it was factual violence. I mean th that violence actually happened, those young men died. You know, cracker is fictional. But cracker, it shows the violence, yes. But it also shows the aftermath of that violence, the effects of that violence, and it shows people grieving. I mean why couldn't we have seen that when the Belgrano went down, for real?

Jimmy McGovern28:37

Why couldn't we have seen their g the grief of their families? I think Kraker's been responsible. I really do. And

Jimmy McGovern28:44

It's shown violence, yes, it's shown the aftermath of violence, it's shown the pain of people, and it's shown the grief of people who love those people who are dead.

Presenter28:51

Make one of the son.

Jimmy McGovern28:52

I've picked this because it reminds me of the time I started work after Brookside for the BBC and I can remember a screening of Needle w which was a film of mine up in Edinburgh.

Jimmy McGovern29:05

And we all went out afterwards afterwards for quite a few drinks. And I can remember George Faber, who who's now i in charge of single drama at the BBC, he but at the time he was executive producer of Needle, I think.

Jimmy McGovern29:17

And uh he'd had a few drinks, George. Everything had gone well.

Jimmy McGovern29:21

And he started to sing Chattanooga Choo Choo. So this reminds me of that night.

Speaker 429:26

Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga Juju? Yes, yes, track 29!

Speaker 429:35

Boy, you can give me a shine

Speaker 429:38

Uh

Speaker 429:39

Can you afford to board a chat and look at you?

Speaker 429:45

I got my fare.

Speaker 429:47

And just a trifle too s

Speaker 429:51

You leave the Pennsylvania station about a quarter to four Read a magazine and then you're in Baltimore Dinner and the diner, nothing could be fine Then to have your ham and eggs in Carolina When you hear the whistle blowing eight to the bar

Speaker 430:08

Then you know that Tennessee is not very far.

Speaker 430:12

Shamelala calling, gotta keep it rolling.

Speaker 430:16

Oh, Jatanooga, there you are.

Presenter30:20

Glen Miller and Chattanooga ChooChoo.

Presenter30:22

So you're a lapsed Catholic who still pops into church sometimes?

Jimmy McGovern30:27

Well, sometimes.

Presenter30:28

You're a working class boy who now lives in a middle class suburb, a bit like Brookside, I'm told, with a sort of green in the middle.

Jimmy McGovern30:33

Yeah, it's Isabel.

Presenter30:35

You're a reformed gambler who still goes to bingo on a Wednesday night.

Jimmy McGovern30:39

Yeah, not every Wednesday night, but most, yeah.

Presenter30:41

With your mom.

Presenter30:42

And you still play cards on a Friday? Yeah. Do you have a conscience about any of these things or um?

Presenter30:48

Or are you more at ease with yourself these days?

Jimmy McGovern30:52

I always used to have a conscience, but not about things like that. I think the thing to have a conscience about is if you have any kind of clout or influence, how do you use that clout and how do you use that influence? How do you spend your money?

Jimmy McGovern31:03

You know, I think they're the things to have a conscience about.

Jimmy McGovern31:05

Do you feel

Presenter31:05

Do you feel you're using your cloud? Do you feel you're having some influence?

Jimmy McGovern31:09

I think

Jimmy McGovern31:10

Recently, I've been able to use it quite wisely. I've got a Wee bit of clout now, Postcracker. Not Post anything else, but Postcracker. And I've used it wisely. I've got a project that's extremely important.

Jimmy McGovern31:22

And I've got that off the ground because we're a wee bit of cloud, you know.

Presenter31:25

What's that?

Jimmy McGovern31:26

Uh it's Hillsborough. It's a a sort of investigation into what what happened at Hillsborough.

Presenter31:32

You're going to like being on a desert island, aren't you?

Jimmy McGovern31:34

Yeah, yeah. I I can I can handle myself on my own.

Presenter31:37

What will you do there?

Jimmy McGovern31:39

I think I just think about things and go for walks and maybe write.

Jimmy McGovern31:43

But um I know I wouldn't have a pen and paper, but I'd find some means of writing.

Jimmy McGovern31:48

And that certainly think about stories.

Presenter31:49

Would you want to write if nobody was going to read it?

Jimmy McGovern31:52

Oh, I think so, yeah. Just so maybe one day somebody'll come across it. Yeah, I wouldn't mind that at all.

Presenter31:57

But say if they didn't, would you still want to do it? Is it an end in itself for you?

Jimmy McGovern32:01

I think it probably is, yeah. There there's a real big kick out out of you know, you you're in your office at say half past five and you know you've written a couple of really good scenes. There's no better buzz well, there's better buzzes, but it's a it's a good buzz.

Presenter32:16

Last record.

Jimmy McGovern32:17

Well, I have to pick this one because this has always played a family night out and I can't dance at all. And w when this record comes on, I simply jump up and down. So every time this comes on, everybody goes Zebedee and and that's my cue to to dance because it's uh come on out.

Speaker 432:34

Wanna send the slander for

Speaker 432:39

Come on I mean, oh I swear I waited at this moment

Speaker 432:45

I'm a cry.

Speaker 432:48

Make that dress my thoughts on the best for John Dirty I'll come alive

Presenter32:59

Dex's Midnight Runners and Come On Eileen So if you could only take one of those eight records, Jimmy, which one would it be?

Jimmy McGovern33:06

I think it would have to be the knacking coal, yeah.

Presenter33:08

When I Fall in Love. It's wonderful, isn't it? What about your book?

Jimmy McGovern33:10

Yeah.

Jimmy McGovern33:13

Well, I've made an awful lot of attempts to read James Joyce's Ulysses and never really succeeded. I've sort of jumped into it, jumped out of it again rather quickly, so I'll take that and try to read it properly.

Presenter33:24

And what about your luxury?

Jimmy McGovern33:25

Uh

Jimmy McGovern33:25

Well

Jimmy McGovern33:27

I had to pick a thing that I always take along with me no matter where I go, and the thing I always take along with me is hemorrhoid ointment, so it would have to be there.

Jimmy McGovern33:35

Yeah.

Presenter33:36

Raw to the end. Jimmy McGuffin, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island is.

Jimmy McGovern33:42

That's a dream come true, thank you.

Speaker 133:51

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.