Don Black

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety five, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway this week is a songwriter. He was born into a poor Jewish family in the East End of London, left school at fifteen and found himself drawn, thanks to an apprenticeship on the New Musical Express, into the world of popular music. He's known failure, he was a disastrously unsuccessful comedian at one time, but his unerring ability to write words that stay with you has made him a wealthy man.

Presenter0:54

If you've seen or listened to the musical Sunset Boulevard, Aspects of Love, or Billy, or heard the songs Born Free and Diamonds Are Forever and many, many more, then you're already familiar with his work. He's one of this country's most successful lyricists. He is Don Black.

Presenter1:10

It seems to me one of the most frustrating things, Don, about being a lyricist is that if you do the job well that is to say, you get the lyric right, it's simple, it's concise, it just feels right, then everybody thinks, Well, I could have written that. It's easy.

Don Black1:24

They do. Uh people find it very easy to criticise lyrics. Um very few people can say I hate that B flat in bar fourteen, because that's very technical.

Presenter1:33

But is it like writing a a a pop song? I mean, I often think when you hear a pop song that's destined to go to number one, you sort of know it or I used to, I don't know whether I do these days, but you you know it when you hear it it sounds right. And it's the same with lyrics, isn't it? It's there's a kind of obviousness about it.

Don Black1:49

Well, it depends what kind of lyrics you're talking about. If you're talking about lyrics in the old days, or lyrics today, it's not so much about songs these days, it's more about records.

Presenter1:59

What do you mean when you say that?

Don Black1:59

I'm not sure.

Don Black2:00

Well, when I started writing songs, when I was in Denmark Street in the early days, people used to say, have you heard that great new Sinatra song?

Don Black2:10

But these days they say have you heard that great George Michael record?

Don Black2:14

It's a big difference. When I started writing songs they were demonstrated with a voice and piano, so you could really dissect it. These days, if you hear a demonstration of a new song, it's like the finished record with all kinds of sounds and synthesizers.

Presenter2:29

So are you also saying that the words don't matter so much any more?

Don Black2:33

Well, they don't matter so much, no? I hate to say that, but I must say, the words do not matter as much. Every now and again, a song comes through, like a ballad, in today's world, and people say, oh, good music's coming back. Because you get a song like The Wind Beneath My Wings, or Whitney Houston singing, I Will Always Love You, and people say, have you heard that song? That's one of the few times they say, have you heard that song? These days I very rarely listen to the radio and say, what a fabulous song. It's a shame, but it's true.

Presenter3:01

But do you still feel you can sit down and write a fabulous song like Born Free or Diamonds Forever if that's what you care to do?

Don Black3:05

I'm a sophomore.

Don Black3:07

Well, I think times have changed. I mean to give you an example, you mentioned Bourne Free. When I won the Academy Award for that in 1967, within a year or so, 600 people recorded it.

Don Black3:18

Now Tim Rice, who recently won an Oscar for his song from Aladdin, I don't think anyone's recorded it apart from the original people.

Presenter3:25

Why not?

Don Black3:25

Because there aren't those people making records. People who record today are people who sing their own songs, which uh the Beatles have a lot to answer for that.

Don Black3:34

I don't want to sound too I'm not bitter about this, but it's just it's just a fact that

Presenter3:38

Just the way it is.

Don Black3:39

It is the that's the way it is, sir.

Presenter3:41

More of that in a minute. Let's get you to this desert island. Um tell me about your first record.

Don Black3:47

Well, my first record is a song called Surrey with the Fringe on Top from Oklahoma, and it's just lyric writing at its best. It's Oscar Hammerstein doing what you're supposed to do. Every word hugs the contours of the melody, it crackles, it fizzes, and Lena Horn doesn't miss a syllable.

Speaker 14:05

Chicks and ducks and geese little scurry When I take you out in the surrey When I take you

Speaker 14:15

Out in the surrey with a friend Shall ta.

Presenter4:20

Lena Horn and the Surrey with the fringe on top from Rogers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma. The other great line there, of course, was the corner's as high as an elephant's eye and it looks like it's climbing right up to.

Don Black4:29

Oh yeah. He he was just so full of imagery, Oscar Hammerstein.

Presenter4:32

But that's what you have to do, isn't it? You have to just find that image that is again, as I was saying earlier, very obvious and yet.

Don Black4:40

And yeah, yes, it's sort of saying what people think but can't say. I mean you look for that. You look for that fresh line. I'm always on red alert, you know, when I'm with people, when I'm with nieces, sisters, anyone who especially anyone who's got a troubled relationship. I hate to say this, but I like to hear them pour their heart out a little bit because they may just say a phrase.

Presenter5:02

Come out with an original phrase.

Don Black5:04

Yeah, I mean if I was in a restaurant and I heard someone at the next table say to someone else, you've lost that loving feeling, I'd write it down.

Presenter5:13

But someone might have written it down before. How often does it happen then? How often do you come across them?

Don Black5:14

That's right.

Don Black5:18

Well, you don't really, but you come up come up with an idea. You know, someone it's like when I wrote Tell Me on a Sunday. Um you know, I it was a friend of mine was going through a bad time, uh a niece of mine actually, and uh she was saying, I know it's not not going to happen, you know, one day it's going to end. I just hope he does it right. And I thought, Hang on a minute.

Don Black5:37

How does she hope it's done? She wants to be taken to a park covered with trees, and be told on a Sunday, please. I thought, yeah, well that's that I haven't heard that before in another song.

Presenter5:43

Go here.

Presenter5:47

There was that other very good line in that song, wasn't there? That don't call me at 3 a.m. from a friend's apartment. It just kind of.

Don Black5:51

That's right.

Presenter5:53

Sums it all up in a way.

Don Black5:54

I I love songs that start you off straight away with the opening line. There's one coming up later on which a Kenny Rogers song which he just says in a bar in Toledo. You don't have to go any further than that. You're there in that bar in Toledo.

Presenter6:08

So you like telling a story?

Don Black6:10

Yes, and particularly straight off in in uh like by the time I get to Phoenix you think oh hang on, you don't have to say much more than that, you know.

Presenter6:17

She'll be rising.

Don Black6:17

She'll be rising, and then you're there, you're just in there, you've got that slice of life instantly.

Presenter6:23

Now that's for for one-off songs. What about for musicals, though? If you sit down with Andrew Lloyd Weber to write Sunset Boulevard, how do you begin?

Don Black6:25

Mm.

Don Black6:33

Well you pray a lot. But well with Andrew Lloyd Weber he is a very much a musical dramatist. He is not like any other songwriter I've worked with really. The thing about Andrew is he does write a lot before the song begins. Like a Norma Desmond on Sunset Boulevard he will start playing the piano as she's on top of the stairs and you'll say Norma's on the stairs now and he's playing and she looks around to Joe Gillis.

Don Black6:57

And now he's playing, now he changes key, and he kind of shoehorns you into the song. Then he'll play with one look or la la la.

Presenter7:07

So he says he then gives you the gist of it.

Don Black7:09

Yeah, we talk about it. He's very you know, he's very good at that. He he gives all the highs and lows you think.

Presenter7:15

But when you when you originally talked about it, you actually had memory in there, didn't you? I mean the the

Don Black7:20

That's right.

Presenter7:20

The one that went on to be a big hit in cats.

Don Black7:22

Cats. Well, you lost that. I did lose that. It shows you.

Presenter7:23

Well you lost that.

Presenter7:25

And why why did that happen?

Don Black7:27

Because it was at a time this was in about nineteen seventy nine when uh we started it and we wrote this song for Norma Desmond called A Big Star it was called or The Greatest Star of All and uh then he went off Sunset Boulevard, went on to do cats, but he didn't want to waste that marvellous melody.

Don Black7:43

And he was right, wasn't he?

Presenter7:46

Record number two.

Don Black7:47

Well record number two, I thought on this island I should keep myself busy with uh writing lyrics, so I thought I'd choose one instrumental so I could keep writing words to my heart's content. And I just thought it's a wonderful melody, it's Al Bonone's Adagio in G minor.

Presenter8:50

Albinone is Adaggio in G minor for organ and strings, played by the London Chamber Orchestra conducted by Christopher Warren Greene.

Presenter8:58

Terribly sad, I'm afraid.

Don Black8:59

Not really. I was scribbling some words, or thinking of some words, while it was playing. I'm talking with Sue Lawley. She's prettier than Sheridan Morley.

Presenter9:08

That wouldn't keep you interested for a moment, it wouldn't.

Don Black9:12

No, it is full of sorrow and full of pain. That melody is just uh is just so full of goosebumps and uh

Don Black9:18

Now I can see myself under some kind of tree, pondering that.

Presenter9:22

Tell me about your early life, because apparently you were born of a a star-struck mother whose ambition was to be a cinema usherette, is that right?

Don Black9:31

It was close. I mean it was yes. Um we were very poor. We came from Hackney and uh happy, all happy, happy. I know it isn't fashionable to talk about happy childhoods particularly, but mine was bliss and uh my mother was uh singing all the time. Um they both came from Russia, my mother and father.

Don Black9:51

And they just used to sing gypsy songs, flamenco songs, anything with a kind of a Jewish passion. Passion is probably the word I'm looking for. And um so when Frankie Lane came on the scene with things like Jezebel and Cry of the Wild Goose, my mother was just over the moon. And her idea of heaven was going to the Hackney Empire as as often as she could afford it and taking me.

Don Black10:13

And it was in Aladdin's cave. And she kept saying E. Donald's'cause she came from Sunderland. She went from Russia to London. She would say, E. Donald, look at those chandeliers, look at the red plush carpets, and E look at him in a dinner suit and i it was just unbelievable. And it was the same with the Regal Cinema. We would go to see the Jolson story. And I was immediately taken with all this glamour. I mean, I suppose it's escape really, but I didn't look on it as escape. And all these songs that had names, American names in them, like California, Here I Come, I Left My Heart in Avalon, Nothing Could Be Finer Than To Be In Carolina, Swannee, and here I was in Well Street, Hackney, you know.

Presenter10:52

So it struck something in you even.

Don Black10:53

Oh, it was jazz. And even the songs of the time, you know, you heard things like Moonlight in Vermont and you thought, What is this world of all Vermont and and Suwannee River and

Presenter11:03

At the

Presenter11:04

Uh

Don Black11:05

Well, I just I just fell in love with it and uh I saw like the Jolson story thirty-two times. We all did, all our family did.

Don Black11:14

I have two brothers, I still have two brothers and two sisters, and um nearby there was a a well-known singer of the day called Steve Conway.

Don Black11:23

Some of your listeners may know he had a very big hit called Good Luck, Good Health, God Bless You and every time he walked past the street, my mother would say, Hey, Donald, is Steve Conway look? He's got a camel coat on because it was sort of obviously wealth was something I'd we had no part of.

Presenter11:38

What about at school there? Were you were you already a wordsmith? Did you enjoy all of that?

Don Black11:43

Um no, I remember my earliest recollection about words but really it was to do with songs. I remember listening to the radio and listening to that marvellous Larry Hart lyric, which is Ten Cents a Dance, and there's a wonderful internal rhyme in there. Sometimes I feel I've found my hero, but it's a queer omance. It's a marvelous

Presenter11:43

Yeah.

Don Black12:04

Clever I thought, what's that? you know and and certain songs at the time was Cry Me a River, Told Me Love Was Too Plebeian, Told Me You Were Through With Me and Now You Say You Love Me. And I used to say, What does plebeian mean?

Don Black12:17

And in Noel Coward's song, Mad about the boy, This odd diversity of misery and joy, I'd rush to the dictionary, What does diversity mean? And at school I would go to my English teacher, mister King, and say, What does ubiquitous mean?

Don Black12:29

And of course my brothers would say, There's something wrong with Donald. What's the matter with him? He's always asking about words. So I've always been interested in words and vocabulary. I have no idea why.

Don Black12:40

Record number three.

Presenter12:41

Yeah.

Don Black12:41

Thanks.

Don Black12:42

Well, record number three involves my great friend Matt Monroe, who I owe so much to. He was one of the best singers ever to come out of this country. And the song I've chosen is a little-known Sammy Khan song from a very little-known Broadway show called Skyscraper. And it's called I'll Only Miss Her When I Think of Her. And if any would-be singers are listening, they should listen to Matt's breath control, because they can then tell me if he had three lungs or not.

Don Black13:07

I'll only miss her

Don Black13:13

When I think of ear

Don Black13:20

And I'll think of her.

Don Black13:27

All the time.

Presenter13:28

Matt Munro, and I'll only miss her when I think of her. Matt Munro, whom you knew when he was still on the buses, I continued.

Don Black13:35

Oh, yes, I knew Matt. We we staffed together. He was on the buses and I was a struggling song plugger in in Denmark Street.

Don Black13:43

And he was just a wonderful man. I often think of Matt because if I've ever got anything that's important coming up.

Don Black13:50

You know, like an interview or something that's a bit nerve-wracking. I always think, well, well, Matt would say, oh, what's it all mean, son? His attitude was like that. When he was performing in Las Vegas, and I would be with him and I'd say, Matt, you know, Sinatra's out front, like Liber Aches out front, you know. Shall I bring them round for a cup of coffee or a drink? And he would say,

Don Black14:11

Can't we have a game of pontoon, son? And he meant it. He had...

Presenter14:15

He was as relaxed as his voice.

Don Black14:15

He was as much as

Don Black14:16

Yeah, he he wasn't impressed by any of the trappings.

Presenter14:19

You had your first big hit with him, though, didn't you, Walk Away. How how did that come about?

Don Black14:24

Well, it was Matt was in the Eurovision Song Contest and he loved a tune. He heard a tune called Varum noor Varum.

Don Black14:32

And he said to me, You're always on about lyrics, he said, Why don't you have a go? If Lionel Bach can do it, you can. And that was his attitude to everything. And I took this home and I thought, I wrote the song Walk Away, and I thought, well, hang on a minute, this is very brave, Walk Away, because it's Walk Away, please go before you throw your life away. It's an older man and a younger girl. And I thought, you know, is it too deep and is it too... Anyway, it came out right in the middle of all the Beatles stuff, or just as that was early 60s. And it was a huge hit, it was a top five hit, and it was a kind of song that people noticed.

Presenter14:59

To rarely sign

Don Black15:06

John Barry, I'm pleased to say, noticed it, the composer and asked me to do various movie things.

Presenter15:11

Thunderbolt, huh?

Don Black15:12

Thunderball was the first one, yes.

Presenter15:13

Okay.

Don Black15:14

And uh

Don Black15:15

and uh Diamonds are Forever and uh Born Free and uh Born Free was the main one.

Don Black15:20

But as a result of walk away, all kinds of doors open for me.

Presenter15:24

But before all that, just let's back up for a second. You're an office boy at the New Musical Express.

Don Black15:27

I was at Office Point, yes.

Presenter15:29

I mean but the heart of Tin Pan Alley, that's the point, isn't it? Denmark

Don Black15:31

The point isn't the same. It was Denmark Street. It was in the eye of the storm. It was the greatest time to be anywhere. You cannot imagine it. Someone once called Denmark Street 200 Yards of Hokeham. And I think it's just a wonderful thing because it was at the time when everyone was a songwriter down that street or a music publisher or a performer. And you'd get people like Dickie Valentine, who was very big. Billy Eckstein from America used to come down a lot.

Don Black15:57

And I was surrounded by people like Tolchard Evans, who wrote Lady of Spain, Michael Carr, who wrote South of the Border, and all these Jimmy Kennedy, who wrote Red Sails in the Sunset. My whole life was surrounded by songwriters. I used to think, well, these people are professional dreamers, really, which is what I wanted to be. Just the idea of just walking around a park dreaming of song titles was very appealing.

Presenter16:20

So that really was quite brave of you then to set out to be one of them.

Don Black16:24

It was. I mean I needed a push. I needed a hit to get me started. I needed walk away to to get going and then Tom Jones with Thunderball. And all of a sudden I started getting busy because when you come from Hackney you feel very uncertain about giving anything up, you know, so I wouldn't give up a job or anything. It took me a long time to be a fully you know professional songwriter where I could just rely.

Don Black16:47

On that.

Presenter16:49

Next record.

Don Black16:51

My next record is by a man called Jake Thackeray, who I have to say I think is one of the most unsung heroes. He is so underrated. And in the business, people think Jake Thackeray is a brilliant poet. Some people have called him an old coward in his way. The words he chooses are so different to anyone else. In the opening lines, it says, Now we're in love, we'll have to face the Lardidar, the eyewash. You think, where did that come from, the eyewash?

Speaker 317:19

Now we're agreed that we're in love, We'll have to face the laida.

Speaker 317:26

The eye-wash all of the fancy pantomime.

Don Black17:31

Uh

Speaker 317:31

I love you very

Don Black17:32

But anymore

Don Black17:35

I'll try a love I'll bill and cool with your gruesome auntie Susan I'll stay calm

Don Black17:42

I'll play it cool.

Presenter17:44

Jake Thackeray and Lardi Dar. So, Don Black, you got the Oscar for Bournfree when you were about twenty eight, but as you say, you still didn't become a full time lyricist until you were about thirty six, I think. What did you do in between time?

Don Black17:56

Well in between time I wrote a hell of a lot of songs. You've got to remember when I won that Oscar I wasn't quite sure how important that Oscar was. I never forget when I did win it. I came back after Dean Martin gave it to me and in the hotel they were all standing up applauding and it was very nice. But it's not until I phoned my sister in London and she said, it's on the placards, the evening standard, it's got East End Boy Wins Oscar, you know. I didn't realise exactly what it meant. And I was also insecure, I think, even with that Oscar. And so again, and I liked the business end of the business. And so I went in with NEMS, which was Brian Epstein's company, and he said I could write my songs and manage people.

Don Black18:38

Which I enjoyed. I was managing Matt Monroe, of course, but I was looking after people like Johnny Mathis and Nat Kincole, Andy Williams when they came here. So again, I just like being around those sort of people.

Presenter18:49

But all people who sang other people's songs.

Don Black18:51

Yes. Well, of course, that is that is the thing, and that is uh a very good point you mentioned there, because this when you talk about great performers, they all have one thing in common. They didn't write songs. If you look at Fred Astaire, Blenohorn, Streisen, Nat Cole, whoever your favorite, Sammy Davis Junior, they were not songwriters, they were performers and entertainers. And I think that you know and these days, of course, all the big stars write their own songs. It's a hell of a strain for a record company to sign somebody who doesn't write.

Don Black19:21

Because they have to find the material for them. So if they find a singer-songwriter, it's self-contained.

Presenter19:27

And it means, of course, that Tin Pan Alley, as you were describing it just now, doesn't really exist anymore.

Don Black19:31

Now today it wouldn't surprise me if Sting had never met Bruce Springsteen at all. You know they don't have to meet. But there was a centre. I do miss that uh that feeling of togetherness.

Presenter19:47

Well it's also a kind of creative thing, isn't it? When when lots of people come together who are all creative somehow something else happens, whereas if they're all sitting in their millionaires' row houses doing it by themselves.

Don Black19:52

Somehow

Don Black19:56

That's why I like musicals, because it's very collaborative. And you know, you're all together, the choreographers, directors, designers, and it's that feeling of working on something together. I mean, it's a very lonely business.

Presenter20:01

And

Presenter20:09

Tell me about that moment, though, that that can't be lonely, when you actually sit down with somebody, somebody you regard as great, and he or she sings your song for the first time.

Don Black20:19

Well, it is thrilling. I mean, it's some things you can't put a price on. When you actually hear Barbara Streisand sing a song of yours, it's what you dream of all your life for a songwriter to have Streisand, who's one of the greatest interpreters of s of a song.

Presenter20:34

'Cause you persuaded her, didn't you, to record with one look from Sunset Boulevard before the show came out.

Don Black20:39

Yes, I wouldn't say persuaded. I think she heard the two songs, and I went to her house in Beverly Hills and spent a whole afternoon with her.

Don Black20:47

Hours and hours, and we dismantled the songs together. She goes over every comma and crotchet.

Don Black20:53

And she is a perfectionist, but she's a lovely, lovely lady. And in the mi in the middle of it all, she's making cups of tea and talking about her life and

Don Black21:01

And when she sings, of course, I mean uh it's like liquid diamond. More music. More music. Well

Don Black21:08

I've chosen a song written by Julie Stein and Stephen Sondheim from the musical Gypsy and some of the greatest times of my life has been watching Broadway shows and this song just sums up the excitement of an opening night on Broadway with Julie Stein at his best and Liza Manelli giving it all she's got.

Speaker 121:30

People can get a thrill knitting swear as an Sitting Spell. That's okay for some people who don't know their lies.

Speaker 121:42

Some people get driving closer. The big nothing, nothing wrong. That's perfect for some people of 105!

Speaker 121:56

At least got a cry when I think of the

Presenter22:00

Liza Minelli singing Some People. So it was 1974 actually, Don, with the musical Billy that you became a full-time writer and that was a great success. It ran at Drury Lane. It was based on Keith Waterhouse's Billy Lyre, as we know. It makes it all look and sound very easy. You know, you wrote a few songs and you went on and then you wrote a musical. It ain't that easy, is it? Because you've had some flops as well. Tell me about your flops.

Don Black22:23

Well, you haven't got time.

Don Black22:26

But uh

Don Black22:27

Well, my flops. Let's talk about my flops. Right, the first flop I had was, I think, a musical called Dear Anyone.

Don Black22:34

which was about an agony art. It starred Jane Lappertier, and I wrote it with a man called Jeff Stevens, a lovely songwriter, who wrote songs like Winchester Cathedral and There's a Kind of Hush All Over the World. Book was by Jack Rosenthal. And um

Don Black22:48

It wasn't terrible, and we had a big hit song from it called I'll Put You Together Again but Hot Chocolate. But it it was predictable. When you when you know you're doing a musical about an agony aunt, you know going in that she can solve everybody's problems but her own. So there was a kind of so that didn't work.

Speaker 123:01

Mm-hmm.

Don Black23:03

I did a musical Budgie with Adam Faith and Anita Dobson. That didn't work. That was an unhappy experience. I thought it was a good idea, Budgie, because I thought it was Soho in the Sixties, Keith Waterhouse, Adam and Anita. It just seemed right. But I'll tell you what was wrong with it, which is interesting. It seemed very old-fashioned. It was a bit sleazy. It was strippers and I don't think people want that.

Presenter23:26

But it's interesting, isn't it? Because all the ingredients would have seemed to have been there. I mean and and there are many other famous flops too, aren't there? Um I mean Danny Kay and Richard Rogers failed with two by two and

Don Black23:31

Same.

Don Black23:36

Two by two and a half. Yeah, but that's one of the great things. Alan J. Lerner, who wrote My Fair Lady, Camelot, Paint Your Wagon, he also wrote Coco, Chanel, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue about the White House, Dance a Little Closer. I could go on about Alan's thoughts. And he used to just say, Hey ho.

Presenter23:53

Is there a recipe for success? I suppose there isn't really. You've got to even if it's a small story, you've got to have a universal theme, haven't you?

Don Black24:00

I think a universal theme helps a great deal, but you it you know, Sol Hurock, the great American showman, said a wonderful thing, if people don't want to see a show, nothing'll stop'em.

Don Black24:11

And I think that's so true. You can't make people go to a theatre. It's word of mouth at the end of the day. It happens. Is it?

Presenter24:17

Is it? But I mean, you've got to have, as we say, this universal theme, you've got to have a good story, a good book, even if it's sung through or whatever. Have you got to have big stars?

Don Black24:21

Even if it's

Don Black24:23

How do you

Don Black24:24

You certainly don't need big stars because Phantom of the Opera is packing them in all the time and no one knows who's in it when they buy their ticket. They go to see Phantom, not the person in it.

Presenter24:31

No disc

Speaker 124:31

Uh

Don Black24:34

And it's the same with with Evita and Les Miz. People go to Les Miz. And it's interesting with p shows like Les Miz and Miss Saigon because these are shows that don't really have hit songs in them either. Which is unusual because Richard Rogers always used to talk about take-home songs. But I once interviewed the writers of Les Miz and and Miss Saigon and they said, well they they take home shows, they don't take home songs.

Presenter24:56

But what it all proves is it's it's a completely unpredictable business. You've just got to keep trying and trying.

Don Black25:01

It's very difficult. I once compared it with doing your own root canal work.

Don Black25:06

It is that difficult.

Presenter25:06

Discrete.

Presenter25:08

That painful.

Don Black25:09

But painful, yes.

Presenter25:10

Record number six.

Don Black25:12

Well this song is a lovely song written by a man called Matt Gordon. You'd know many of his other songs like The More I See You. He's written some wonderful songs. But this song is lovely because it's an unusual story. It's about a woman who's in love with someone she shouldn't be in love with. It's called My Heart Tells Me.

Speaker 125:33

Will I be sorry?

Speaker 125:39

If I do

Speaker 125:47

Should I believe my heart?

Presenter25:52

Uh

Presenter25:53

Are you

Presenter25:56

Susannah McCauckle and My Heart Tells Me. You say, Don Black, that that most singers these days write their own songs, why don't you write your own music?

Don Black26:05

Because there's so many people who can do it better. I I couldn't do it. I mean, I could write a predictable pedestrian tune. I think everyone could.

Presenter26:12

But do you understand music? I mean, do you know what Andrew Lloyd Weber means when he says we'll move into B flat now?

Don Black26:17

Do you

Presenter26:21

Do you play an instrument at all?

Don Black26:22

No.

Presenter26:22

So you just sit down with a paper and pencil.

Don Black26:25

That's it.

Don Black26:26

Yeah.

Presenter26:27

The music's in your head, or you've got it written down on in sheet music, yeah.

Don Black26:29

Yes, but I don't try and play it because it would be awful. It'd be very off-putting. No, I just listen to it on a cassette. Andrew would play me the melody on a cassette and I'd learn it. And then I'd just walk around the park and think about it or it's a lot of thinking time.

Presenter26:43

Hm. What about singing? Why don't you sing your own songs?

Don Black26:45

No, I wish I could sing too as well, but then I dunno, I'm uh I shouldn't complain.

Presenter26:51

You shouldn't complain'cause uh as I understand it, you you don't even need to work anymore. I mean, you know, the old royalties roll in and you're, you know, happy with that.

Don Black26:59

Well, I I think I think you do. First of all, it I don't think it's anything to do with needing. I think you enjoy it. I've always loved writing songs. I would never stop if I won the lottery. It wouldn't make any difference. I'd still be writing songs.

Presenter27:10

How often do you write one?

Don Black27:11

I thought you were going to say how often do you do the lottery?

Don Black27:15

Well, um

Don Black27:16

I write uh I write usually when I'm asked, but I'm often scribbling down ideas. I have books full of thoughts, thinking, Well, that's a good idea, one day that'll that'll come in handy.

Presenter27:25

Can I ask you the impossible question? Which which piece that you've written are you proudest of? Or is there one line or a whole song?

Don Black27:32

It's always a very difficult thing. I like odd bits and pieces. There's a song I wrote for Michael Jackson called Ben. I like the middle section of that, which Michael Jackson liked the best, because it says it in as few as words as you can. And it says um I used to say I and me, now it's us, now it's we, which says a lot in in as few notes as as possible.

Presenter27:52

Mechan.

Don Black27:54

Record number seven, yes, now I love country music and because as opposed to the lyric writing that goes on in Broadway, which is all to do with polished lyrics, it's very unpolished there. It's all about raw emotion. And I spent some time in Nashville and everyone is looking for titles. Everyone's a songwriter down in Nashville. If you say hello to them, they say, hey, what a great title, you know.

Speaker 128:15

Yeah.

Don Black28:16

But I'd like to, you know, have been there when this guy wrote this title, as I think it really is a terrific one. You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucille.

Don Black28:25

You picked a fine time to leave me, Lucia.

Don Black28:30

With poor hungry children and crops in the field.

Speaker 128:37

I've had some rent

Speaker 128:39

Live through some sad time

Don Black28:42

Uh

Speaker 128:42

This time

Don Black28:42

I'm you heard me

Don Black28:44

Yeah.

Don Black28:46

He picked a fine I to leave me to see.

Presenter28:51

Kenny Rogers and Lucille. Tell me about Don Black on a Desert Island. Um there must be inspiration for a few songs there.

Don Black28:59

Well, I don't know. Probably things like Yellow Bird Up High in Banana Tree or something like that.

Presenter29:04

Sort of girl from eponema or something.

Don Black29:06

Yes. You could imagine. I don't funny enough, I can. I I've taught myself to write anywhere in kitchens and streets and but it doesn't matter where I write,'cause it's all in your head, it's that mind-wandering lunacy, so I don't think it matters where you are. I don't think I'd be great on this desert island. So I mean it sounds marvellous, but I'm not very good as a handyman. I'm not very good as a cook.

Don Black29:29

Um

Don Black29:30

I don't think I'd be a great survivor there. I mean, I'd love it for a few hours. I love the idea of it.

Presenter29:35

But are you a great reflector? I mean, would you would you sit there and, I don't know, reflect on the nature of your success or?

Don Black29:39

Come on.

Don Black29:42

What they say it is always nice to reflect on your achievements instead of looking ahead about what may happen. It's a thing people should do, you know. And I think that is nice because I think everyone tries very hard and they never stop to

Don Black29:54

Look what's happened so far. Yes, I would I would reflect. I just uh I'd like to get out of there pretty soon though.

Presenter30:01

Write yourself a nice take-home song.

Don Black30:01

Yeah.

Don Black30:02

That's fine.

Presenter30:04

What about let me just ask you finally about your parents? I mean, we were saying that your mother was so starstruck. Did she live to enjoy your success for itself?

Don Black30:04

Uh

Don Black30:13

Well she did to a certain extent. She was there for a few of that but unfortunately she died just before my Oscar, which I thought was a terrible, terrible tragedy. But uh she was there and just the fact that I knew people like Matt Monroe, who she heard on the radio, she was happy i you know, she she didn't have to meet Sinatra. She was quite happy to meet the fella down the road who

Don Black30:34

who sang in the local pub. She was quite happy to meet anyone who was just just involved.

Don Black30:40

in this magical business.

Presenter30:42

Last record.

Don Black30:43

My last record is a duet from The Pearl Fishers by Bizay. The reason I chose this is that

Don Black30:50

Some songs and some music is written, but this one seems

Don Black30:54

to be coming from the gods. It seems to be coming from some exalted arena. And it just just takes you to the sky.

Speaker 131:12

Is your

Speaker 131:29

Uh

Presenter31:37

Uh

Speaker 331:40

These were the assault, he is a power.

Presenter31:53

The duet Au Fant du Tent Placin from The Pearl Fishers by Bizet, sung by Usie Bjorling and Robert Merrill, with the R C A Victor Orchestra conducted by Renato Cellini.

Presenter32:04

So, Don, if you could only take one of those eight records.

Don Black32:07

I would take the Albanoni Adaggio, because it will keep me busy, and I just keep writing words.

Presenter32:13

Hmm.

Presenter32:14

And a book?

Don Black32:16

I've chosen a a book that probably no one's heard of. I picked it up in America. It's called 14,000 Things to Be Happy About, and it's written by a lady called Barbara Ann Kipfer. And it's just a list, really, and it's a reminder of the small pleasures in life we all take for granted. Things like a trip to the library, The Cool Underside of a Pillow, Crayoms for Children in Restaurants, WC Fields, The Wizard of Oz.

Don Black32:43

window boxes, just little things like that that would uh remind me of life back.

Don Black32:49

Whatever.

Presenter32:49

It'd keep you happy. I think you are just a happy person, aren't you? I don't know whether you need to be kept happy.

Don Black32:54

I like to think I have a sunny disposition. I'm not really aware of it until I look at other people and I think, well, other compared to other people, well, this.

Presenter33:02

Think how miserable they are.

Don Black33:02

Yeah.

Presenter33:04

What about your luxury?

Don Black33:06

Well, I've always been a great snooker enthusiast, so I would have a snooker table.

Don Black33:11

Whenever I play snooker for a couple of hours, it just I forget about everything. Just how do I get that white ball back here? You know, it's just a another small pleasure.

Presenter33:20

Don Black, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 333:31

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/radio four.