Duke Of Westminster

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety five, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:28

My castaway this week is a Duke. He was born in Northern Ireland and spent an idyllic childhood on the banks of Locherne in County Fermanagh. But education in the English public school system and the comparatively early death of his father swept all that away. By the age of nineteen he was managing one of Britain's greatest estates. At twenty seven he owned it. Today he is one of this country's richest men, owner of three hundred acres of prime London property, an estate in Cheshire, some of Scotland, shopping malls in Los Angeles, and other interests in America, Canada, Australia, and the Far East.

Presenter1:03

The responsibility of these possessions affects him keenly. I never think of giving up, he says. I can't sell. It doesn't belong to me. He is Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor, sixth Duke of Westminster.

Presenter1:16

If it doesn't belong to you, Gerald, who does it belong to?

Duke Of Westminster1:19

Well, it belongs to my family. Um it's part of my heritage as anything else is part of one's heritage, whether it be a building or whether it be green fields. In the context of eternity, if I'm lucky, I might live on this earth for seventy years. Uh that estate has been with us for three, four, five, six hundred years. So I'm only a mere flicker in the process of time and the process of history.

Presenter1:41

But apparently you didn't even want to be that Flickerer. You were a reluctant heir, weren't you?

Duke Of Westminster1:46

I think I was. I had this wonderful childhood in Northern Ireland. I was quite happy and contented to have lived there all my life. I knew what I wanted to be. I wanted to farm, and take it really rather gently, I thought. And then because my uncle had no children, sadly his eldest son did die at a very early age.

Duke Of Westminster2:06

It was rather forced upon me, and I didn't actually know that I was going to inherit all this until about the age of fifteen.

Presenter2:13

But you in turn are going to force it upon your son. He will become the seventh duke.

Duke Of Westminster2:18

I will force nothing on anybody, let alone my children.

Presenter2:21

But you're husbanding it, that's really what I'm saying. You're looking after it just as the the other five dukes before you have, and you hope to pass it on to the seventh duke, and that's that's the way you feel things should happen.

Duke Of Westminster2:26

But you have to do that.

Duke Of Westminster2:32

It's the way that I feel things should happen, but in Hugh's case, obviously, I'd be delighted if he took over the responsibilities, because with the responsibilities come many rights, and they're indefinable between the two.

Presenter2:44

But but just let me ask you, technically, um just for the purpose of argument, if you wanted to sell it, you could, couldn't you? You could sell it all out and go and live the life of Riley on the Mediterranean.

Duke Of Westminster2:52

Technically, one could.

Presenter2:54

But you never will.

Duke Of Westminster2:55

And it has never crossed my mind. You don't inherit something just to sell it.

Presenter2:59

Well, what we do here is is strip you of all those assets and we cast you alone on an island. I mean I'm sure the idea appeals just a bit.

Duke Of Westminster3:02

Cost you a lot.

Duke Of Westminster3:06

It does a little bit, yes.

Presenter3:07

Tell me about the first record you're playing with.

Duke Of Westminster3:09

Well the first record I've chosen is Fleetwood Mac's Albatross and I think I've chosen that after a great deal of deliberation as my opening record purely on the basis that it has this wonderful solitude about it and leading a busy and often confusing life one longs on occasions for solitude and I think that Fleetwood Mac has captured that giant seabird out in the middle of nowhere and with its solitude with itself just floating gently across the sea and the combination of probably one of the largest flying birds in the world and the great ocean is almost irresistible to me.

Presenter4:14

Fleetwood Mac and Albatross.

Presenter4:16

The history of how your family came by all this land is fascinating. Apparently it was William the Conqueror who handed it over in the first place, the whole of Cheshire to one of your ancestors.

Duke Of Westminster4:24

Yes, my ancestor, my kinsman, was a relation of William the Conqueror's, and he sent all the members of his family up to secure the borders against the Celtic fringe. Somewhere since.

Presenter4:35

Suppress the natives.

Duke Of Westminster4:37

Well, exactly. And uh there were some sent to the Scottish border, and then there were some sent to the Welsh border, and we ended up on the North Wales border in order to keep the Welsh the other side of the River Dee.

Presenter4:46

And did the Welsh uh forgive your family or the

Duke Of Westminster4:49

Well, as you know, um Celtic memories are very long, and nine hundred years is almost as if it were yesterday. So the subject is on occasions brought up every now and again.

Presenter4:59

But the real wealth came into the family in the seventeenth century, didn't it?

Duke Of Westminster5:02

Yes, it was the 17th century really that brought it in, and the early part of the wealth came in through lead mining in North Wales. And then, obviously, subsequently to that, my family married, Sir Thomas Grosvenor married Mary Davis, who had this substantial diary. She was a young lady of only fourteen, and her father put her up, as it were, for auction.

Presenter5:26

For an arranged marriage.

Duke Of Westminster5:27

for an arranged marriage, really between Lord Barclay of Barclay Square fame and Sir Thomas Grosvenor, and Sir Thomas Grosvenor actually outbid Lord Barclay.

Presenter5:35

And she brought with her a set of boggy fields.

Duke Of Westminster5:38

Yes, um I like to refer them to as farms. Um however, they were badly drained farms. Uh yes, technically of course they were boggy fields.

Presenter5:45

But they're now Mayfair, Belgrave.

Duke Of Westminster5:47

And they're now made fair in Belgravia.

Presenter5:49

So Sir Thomas Grosvenor bid for her as it were and won.

Duke Of Westminster5:52

And so

Presenter5:52

And so the wealth came into the Grosvenor family. He was a kind of unknown squire, would be dangerous.

Duke Of Westminster5:56

Yes, he was. Um he lived in Cheshire and was accumulating a degree of wealth through the lead mines in North Wales, but then spotted the main chance.

Presenter6:04

Spotted Mary Davis.

Duke Of Westminster6:05

That's not

Presenter6:06

Hence Davis Street and

Duke Of Westminster6:07

Yes, hence Davis Street. And indeed all the um streets in and around May Mayfair and Belgraver, an awful lot of them have got family connections. And indeed connections from Chester, Chester Square, um Chester Street, Little Chester Street.

Presenter6:15

Yeah.

Presenter6:19

Hmm.

Presenter6:21

But you've got them all in your neo in Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor.

Duke Of Westminster6:23

Yes.

Presenter6:24

Eaton Square, of course, Eaton with an A.

Duke Of Westminster6:25

Absolutely.

Duke Of Westminster6:27

Eaton with an A, which is the name of our home up in Cheshire.

Presenter6:28

Which is the name of

Duke Of Westminster6:31

And uh so a lot of the street names are Cheshire-orientated and North Wales-orientated.

Presenter6:37

Do you recall the moment when your father told you all this was going to be yours?

Duke Of Westminster6:42

I will never forget it. It was shortly after my uncle died, and I remember him sitting me down, and really the the dawning of the realization of what was ahead of one almost made me run for the door, slam it, and keep on running.

Presenter6:56

You were fifteen.

Duke Of Westminster6:57

I was fifteen years old, yes.

Presenter6:58

But your father had known since you were really very small that it was coming first his way and then yours, hadn't you?

Duke Of Westminster7:03

Yes, he had. Um but it hadn't really dawned upon me, and I suppose it was actually quite clever of him to keep me as it were away from the main implications of it.

Presenter7:13

But you rebelled nevertheless.

Duke Of Westminster7:15

I did rebel to a degree. Like everybody else at that age, I grew my hair far too long. I had a terrible time finding my feet. I had a terrible time in understanding what the implications were. If you look at it against a background of a wonderful life, living on an island in Locherne, the other side of Enniskillen, 52 miles of lake, 365 islands, my two sisters, myself, my mother and father, and realising really for the first 15 years of one's life that one was just going to have this idyllic way of life. And then I had to face these daunting prospects. And the other thing I found very difficult to come to terms with was how differently people treated one. I was brought up, as I say, in Ulster, where you were treated purely on your own merits. You were treated because of who you are. And I was called Gerald all my life. There was no question of titles and there was no questions of your grace this and your grace that and my lord this and my lord that and I found that very difficult to come to terms with.

Presenter8:19

Do you do you still find it difficult?

Duke Of Westminster8:21

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes.

Presenter8:23

Do not like people calling you your grit.

Duke Of Westminster8:25

I find it on occasions very embarrassing, even more so when people ask me what what what what they sh what what what should they call me um because then I do stumble like I've done just now.

Presenter8:35

Tell me about your second record.

Duke Of Westminster8:36

My second record is the theme tune to Harry's Game. Harry's Game was a wonderful book and it was a wonderful film. And the theme tune to that film is full of tragedy and it is the only piece of music that I think encompasses the tragedy of Ireland so brilliantly. And of course the book and the film had a tragic ending of great misunderstanding. And that is the story of Ulster.

Speaker 49:09

Why you challenge me out?

Speaker 49:14

And I kid young I said.

Presenter9:39

Clanad and the theme from Harry's game.

Presenter9:42

So you had this idyllic childhood on um Lochearne. Uh your father was a politician, so he was away a lot. But eventually you were sent away, weren't you? You were sent to prep school in Berkshire.

Duke Of Westminster9:48

But you

Duke Of Westminster9:53

Yes, I was sent away at what I still regard as the absurdly young age for about seven.

Duke Of Westminster9:57

I suppose, like all my contemporaries, it was the conventional form of education.

Presenter10:03

But from Fermanagh, County Fermanagh, to Berkshire to Sunningdale Prep School is a big leap, isn't it?

Duke Of Westminster10:07

Okay.

Duke Of Westminster10:09

It is, and especially when you're carrying a broad Ulster accent with you. It's an even bigger one.

Presenter10:12

Disney

Presenter10:13

When did you dump that?

Duke Of Westminster10:14

Well, it was dumped dumped out of me, I suppose one could refer it to, um, i i by teasing. I was teased mercilessly about it.

Presenter10:22

At school. Yes. But there must have been huge cultural differences. Yes.

Duke Of Westminster10:23

Yes.

Duke Of Westminster10:25

Yes, it was a great cultural difference. You see, coming from a very divided society and a very divided school society, which of course Ulster was then in terms of Protestant schools and Roman Catholic schools, I came from a county which was basically fifty-fifty in terms of Protestants from Roman Catholics. And you see it was very much in my culture to wonder who was what. And I found myself going around

Duke Of Westminster10:49

wondering and indeed asking.

Duke Of Westminster10:51

Whether someone was a Roman Catholic or a Protestant. And that was the biggest cultural divide, of course, that I had to overcome initially. And the biggest.

Presenter10:59

Why because they didn't know or it didn't matter.

Duke Of Westminster11:00

And they didn't understand what I was talking about.

Presenter11:02

In mind.

Duke Of Westminster11:02

And

Duke Of Westminster11:03

I mean, obviously all these young boys looked at me as if I was stark raving mad.

Presenter11:07

But how how were you going to respond when they said they were a Catholic?

Duke Of Westminster11:10

I think I would have probably in those days probably ignored them.

Duke Of Westminster11:13

And I would have made my friends among a Protestant community. But fortunately, at the age of seven, most young boys actually don't really know what they are.

Presenter11:20

Yeah.

Duke Of Westminster11:21

Um so it wasn't really an issue.

Presenter11:23

But would it be fair to say you were traumatized by this business of being sent away?

Duke Of Westminster11:26

I think I was actually. I think I was.

Presenter11:28

Did you ever ask your mother why?

Duke Of Westminster11:30

I did ask her why, and she said on reflection, because my father was an Ulster Unionist Member of Parliament for Fermanagh and South Turan. He was away an awful lot. She had three small children and again two other cousins living with us, so there were five of us, all of the same age, a bit of a handful. And um she said it was the accepted thing to do. And I said, Why did you never challenge it? and she said, Well, it never really crossed their minds. And with hindsight, she said they would have challenged the conventional wisdom.

Presenter12:01

Hmm.

Presenter12:02

Would you send your own children away? Have you sent your children away?

Duke Of Westminster12:04

No. Um my two eldest, um fifteen and thirteen are at a day school in the Wirral.

Presenter12:09

There goes.

Duke Of Westminster12:09

They're girls.

Duke Of Westminster12:15

We see a lot of them. I don't see the point of having children and sending them away at the age of seven and get them back at the age of nineteen, complaining bitterly that they don't behave, because it's just as much up to the parents as it is up to the education system.

Presenter12:26

What about the son and air, Hugh? Now aged four?

Duke Of Westminster12:29

Hugh's now age four. We've not made any decisions on his education at the moment. We're going to see how he develops. The likelihood is oh well the certainty is that he'll go to the village school. That will be his first step. And thereafter, it is a subjective question. We're looking at various different alternatives. But the alternative which we will both elect for

Duke Of Westminster12:49

both Tally and myself, is the one wherein we can see him as often as possible and actually have him as a child and also as an adolescent, because I believe it's part and parcel of one's responsibility in having children.

Presenter13:04

My quote number three.

Duke Of Westminster13:05

Record number three really is Elton John's Nikita and I chose this.

Duke Of Westminster13:11

for no other reason than it's a wonderful piece of music.

Speaker 413:16

Nakita Musical

Speaker 413:21

In your little corner

Duke Of Westminster13:24

Rubo

Duke Of Westminster13:28

Could roll around the globe.

Duke Of Westminster13:33

Never find a warmer soul to know

Presenter13:37

Elton John and Nikita. So you left school, Gerald Grosvenor, before A levels. You only got two O levels.

Duke Of Westminster13:43

Yes, I only got two O levels.

Presenter13:44

Do you put some sometimes people rather cruelly allege that they were woodwork and art, but they weren't?

Duke Of Westminster13:50

Marginally better than that. They were Grade One in English language and Grade One in history.

Presenter13:54

But would you put that down to the fact that you have only two be down to the fact that you were unacademic or unhappy?

Duke Of Westminster14:01

I was

Duke Of Westminster14:03

Unhappy?

Duke Of Westminster14:04

Um the interesting thing is actually that um I've never failed an exam since I left school and of course I've taken five army exams um wherein I've been happy and where I've wherein I've been motivated. I wasn't motivated at school. I was unhappy because I didn't understand the system that I came into. I didn't try. I never applied myself. I found it very difficult to make friends at school.

Presenter14:12

Um

Presenter14:30

You more or less took over the family firm, as I said at the beginning, at the age of nineteen, because your father was ill, and you've effectively run it ever since. That's for the past twenty five years.

Duke Of Westminster14:38

Yes.

Presenter14:39

Two O levels notwithstanding. Would you say therefore that you had a a natural flair for it, or has it been pure graph?

Duke Of Westminster14:45

I don't think so. I think it's been a combination. You don't need O levels to lead. You don't need O levels to have judgment. You don't need O levels to make decisions and be decisive.

Presenter14:58

But where did the ability to do that come from?

Duke Of Westminster14:59

I think instinctively. I think my army training in those early days did help me, and I've carried that on through my life.

Presenter15:07

But you're worth less on paper today, aren't you, than when you took over?

Duke Of Westminster15:10

Well, yes, that that is somebody's subjective judgment of what I'm worth. And people have had shots at it forever, but don't take those figures as gospel because you know what you're worth. Yes, I do, and I'm not prepared to say, um, because I believe that that's my business. It's what I do with the wealth rather than what I am worth, which I believe is more important.

Presenter15:19

But do you know what you're worth?

Presenter15:29

With

Presenter15:31

I want to talk to you about what you do with it, but tell me first of all, obviously, it's hard work, but it has its compensations. What would you.

Presenter15:38

say it was your greatest luxury.

Duke Of Westminster15:40

My greatest luxury is having my own aeroplane.

Presenter15:40

Sure, yeah.

Duke Of Westminster15:42

It means that I do have the ability to cover enormous distances in a day and still be able to get home.

Presenter15:49

How long does it take from London to Cheshire?

Duke Of Westminster15:49

How long does it

Duke Of Westminster15:50

35 minutes to fly from Chester to London, and if I get stuck on the A forty, it can take anything up to an hour and a half to do the last twelve miles.

Presenter15:54

Nice.

Presenter15:58

And the butler meets you on the tarmac.

Duke Of Westminster16:00

No, he certainly doesn't. Um I park my car up at North Holt and um I'm met at North Holt obviously because it's an RAF base.

Presenter16:06

Um can I ask what kind of car it is?

Duke Of Westminster16:08

Disjaguar.

Duke Of Westminster16:09

Bother Ell, too, before you ask.

Presenter16:13

Tell me about your next spectrum.

Duke Of Westminster16:15

My next record is Ferry Across the Mersey by Gerry and the Pacemakers. And I've chosen this really for two reasons. First of all, coming to Cheshire from Northern Ireland, my first and immediate contact with the North West was very much Liverpool, which I've always had a great fondness for, and particularly the Scouts. I commanded a Skouse squadron, so Liverpudlins have been with me all my life in their various guises and forms. And I think the history of the Ferry Across the Mersey, which now of course no longer exists, is a wonderful history, as I think the history of Liverpool is.

Speaker 416:53

Goes on day after day

Speaker 417:00

Hearts tawny every way

Speaker 417:08

So ferry, cross the Mersey,'cause this land's the place I love, And here I'll stay.

Presenter17:22

Jerry and the Pacemakers and Ferry across the Mersey. You hit the headlines a couple of years ago because you resigned from the Tory party despite historic family connections. Why did you do it?

Duke Of Westminster17:33

My family have been an integral part of the Tory Party, and as I say, my father was an Austrian Unionist Member of Parliament. However, that was in those days very much part of the Tory Party. And so, therefore, our political ties go back a very long time. And I didn't leave it easily. It was a very difficult decision to make. However, I always believed that one of the fundamental beliefs of the Conservative Party, and being what a Conservative was all about, was the privacy of contract, the right of ownership, the sanctity of ownership, the property-owning democracy. When are you part of that property-owning democracy and when aren't you part of that property-owning democracy?

Presenter18:11

So it was the Leasehold Reform Act that really did for you, because that gave

Duke Of Westminster18:13

Yes, it was.

Duke Of Westminster18:15

Um

Presenter18:17

people who held leases the right to buy the freehold from you, the landlord.

Duke Of Westminster18:21

Absolutely. And I understand legislation being framed for the public good. What I do not understand is legislation being framed on the basis that it is against one individual for the benefit of another individual.

Presenter18:35

But surely if a family has lived in one of your properties for for some time, and it was their permanent home, and they've lavished a lot of care on its interior, and they've decorated it, and loved it, and so on, isn't there a point at which it's only fair that they should be able to buy it outright from you?

Duke Of Westminster18:50

That of course is an argument. However, when they signed those leases, in the first instance, they signed a contract, freely entered into, by me and by them, and it was their choice to live within that system. It is not as if the whole of London is taken up through the leasehold system. There are other places to live as well.

Presenter19:08

But why is it fair that one person, i. e. you, should go on gaining immense wealth from properties which, as we've established, came into your family by chance and you inherited by chance?

Duke Of Westminster19:17

Inheritance.

Presenter19:19

Um w and your family should go on in uh benefiting from those properties for decade upon decade upon decade, and nobody has a chance to buy them. So private ownership is not extended in any way.

Duke Of Westminster19:31

Well, as I say, London is a big place. I choose to run

Duke Of Westminster19:35

that part of which I have control over in a certain way, for not only the benefit of myself, which quite clearly there is, but I believe it's actually for the benefit of that part of London as well. I think it looks good. I think the standard of management in terms of what the squares look like

Presenter19:47

Looks good.

Duke Of Westminster19:51

Belgrave Square, Chester Square, Grosvenor Square. I think the standard of upkeep, and I sti think the standard of maintenance, I think is very high.

Presenter19:58

But the leasehold reform act did go through. You resigned the party anyway.

Duke Of Westminster20:01

Real.

Presenter20:03

What's been its effect? That was two years ago.

Duke Of Westminster20:06

Well, its effect at the moment has been minimal. I think the long-term effects are very serious to me. So it's the thin and.

Presenter20:12

So it's the thin end of the wedge, is it it chips away at the Grosvenor estate?

Duke Of Westminster20:14

It is a thin end of the wedge, and it chips away at our residential landholdings, which one has to say is not the most profitable part of our business in any event, because we tend to put more money back into our residential stock than we actually do back into our commercial stock.

Presenter20:29

But if somebody comes along who's lived in one of your houses with a lease for more than a couple of years and demands to buy its freehold, they can.

Duke Of Westminster20:37

They they can, at a discounted price, bearing in mind the amount they paid originally for the lease and the length of the lease, so it's not open market value.

Presenter20:46

Okay.

Duke Of Westminster20:46

It's less than open market value.

Presenter20:47

Do you feel deprived without your membership of the Conservative Party?

Duke Of Westminster20:51

Not particularly. I feel sad that I had to leave. I had to leave because of my own conscience. And I took a moral stand. And I don't regret it, but I feel very sad about it.

Presenter21:02

Next piece of music.

Duke Of Westminster21:03

My next piece of mu music is um Luciano Pavarotti singing Panis Angelicus. Not only do I believe it is the most again the most wonderful piece of music, but it also helps me to forget about the leasehold reform act, perhaps.

Speaker 421:19

He's on jury home.

Speaker 421:25

Take the body for freedom.

Speaker 421:31

The Lord is choosing feeble.

Speaker 421:40

Peace.

Speaker 421:41

And they read.

Speaker 421:48

Bless me, Ra.

Speaker 422:07

That's kind of boring.

Presenter22:14

Luciano Pavarotti singing Panis Angelicus by Cesar Frank with the National Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Court Herbert Adler.

Presenter22:22

You married in 1978, Gerald, and you had two daughters very quickly.

Duke Of Westminster22:24

Do you have had

Duke Of Westminster22:26

Yes, we did, yes.

Presenter22:27

And then nothing, no sun and air.

Duke Of Westminster22:29

Nothing.

Duke Of Westminster22:30

No. One always hoped for a son and heir. Every man does. There's nothing that isn't anything but basic human nature, I don't think. I didn't want him for

Duke Of Westminster22:41

The popularly conceived reasons. I wanted him purely because I wanted a son. Like mothers like to have daughters as well.

Presenter22:48

So what would have happened to the title if you had

Duke Of Westminster22:50

The title would have died out. It would have reverted to the Marquess of Westminster, which is, as it were, number two in the batting. And the girls would have been.

Presenter22:56

And the girls would have inherited the business.

Duke Of Westminster22:58

The girls would have um basically inherited the business, yes. I had no hang-up about that. I had no difficulty.

Duke Of Westminster23:04

I am a strong believer in primogenitor, always have been. It's always been a very strong facet in my family. But it was never such a worry to me as it was to everybody else that Hugh didn't appear.

Presenter23:14

But then he did 1991.

Duke Of Westminster23:16

1991, yes.

Presenter23:17

And and you've said before now that he has this very large silver spoon in his mouth. Um and you've said, you've been quoted as saying that that it's it's dangerous, that it can seduce you. What do you mean by that?

Duke Of Westminster23:29

Well, I've um always said that um one of my great aims in life is actually to get that silver spoon out of his mouth.

Duke Of Westminster23:36

It can seduce you. It can seduce you into wealth on any scale can seduce you into a world that you don't really think that anybody else exists in it except yourself. You become very self-centered. You become very isolated from reality.

Presenter23:52

But it didn't happen to you. I mean, you were um one remembers very much. You were you were cited as being the most eligible bachelor in the land and women were sending you their photographs. I mean, you could have had any woman you wanted, you could have had anything. It didn you you didn't get seduced.

Duke Of Westminster24:06

No, um I think I was lucky and I think the

Presenter24:10

There might you have been was there in the middle of the

Duke Of Westminster24:11

I think I might have been, yes. One looks around certainly people of one's own age who have great wealth, and perhaps some of them haven't been so fortunate as I in terms of being able to come to terms with it.

Presenter24:23

We're talking about the temptation of drugs among other things.

Duke Of Westminster24:25

I'm talking about the temptations of drugs. I'm talking about the temptation of idleness.

Duke Of Westminster24:30

What interests me at the moment actually greatly is the great debate raging at the moment over the large lottery winners and how they're coping with great wealth suddenly landed in their laps. And I understand the difficulties that it does bring. I understand the jealousies that it brings. And you have to resist those jealousies. You have to understand that human nature being what it is, people are inherently jealous. And envy. One is subjected, I think, to envy on almost an everyday basis. And I understand the human nature that actually drives that. I think we do live in a society which perhaps certainly these days is not at ease with itself. And any society that isn't at ease with itself does tend to generate extremes, whether it be extremes in terms of political polarization or extremes of envy or extremes of jealousy. Certainly today it's got very much worse than it used to be. But again, I can't go to bed worrying about it every night and I can't wake up in the morning worrying about it. And if I continue to do what I believe is right in the best interests of my family and others, then my conscience is settled because I'm answerable to that and I'm answerable to my makeup.

Presenter25:46

Number six.

Duke Of Westminster25:47

My number six song is, I think, probably out of my entire selection is my favorite. It is the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's Nabucco, and it is the piece of music that m my mother was buried to. And

Duke Of Westminster26:05

I remember her coffin being taken out of the cathedral in Inniskillen.

Duke Of Westminster26:10

by six R U C men and they were doing a slow march to Nabucco and it was a big, rather public service with T V cameras and things like that, none of which any any of us ever wanted, but it was public. But at that moment when the R U C men were marching down with my mother's coffin, it silenced the lot and it left I think an indelible mark on certainly my memory and all those that were there.

Speaker 426:47

Spark

Speaker 427:00

Life supports.

Speaker 427:06

For this I

Speaker 427:20

I share the song

Presenter27:28

The chorus of the Hebrew slaves from Verdi's Nabucco with the Vienna State Opera and Chorus conducted by Lamberto Gardelli.

Presenter27:35

You mentioned the army several times, Joe. That's the TA, the territory.

Duke Of Westminster27:39

The territorials, yes.

Presenter27:40

You couldn't become a regular soldier because of the business and so on.

Duke Of Westminster27:43

Yes, I was actually going to go into the regular army, and then of course my father went ill just about the time I was going to go in.

Presenter27:47

Just

Presenter27:49

So the TA has sort of fulfilled those ambitions for the two.

Duke Of Westminster27:52

The TAs more than fill those ambitions. The Territorials have given me

Duke Of Westminster27:56

an enormous part of my life which

Duke Of Westminster27:59

After twenty three years I still look back with tremendous fondness.

Presenter28:04

But it's important to you as I understand it because you've won it for yourself.

Duke Of Westminster28:07

Exactly. It's very important to me that I've actually had a chance to prove myself against my peers and to take and pass the examinations that were required, because the army weren't in the business of um issuing favours to me or indeed to anybody else because those days are long gone.

Presenter28:26

So you competed and you won. How many days a week does it take up if you won't?

Duke Of Westminster28:30

Well, I never go through one day without having contact in one way and or another with Army matters.

Presenter28:36

Then there's the Cheshire Estate to run as well, and the family to see and so on. So with any luck you can avoid London as often as possible, Phil.

Duke Of Westminster28:41

But with any luck,

Duke Of Westminster28:43

Well, um, let's put it this way. I'm not a Londoner at all, by birth or indeed by inclination. I'm a countryman, by birth and by inclination, and uh that is what is important to me.

Presenter28:53

But you genuinely don't like it, do you?

Duke Of Westminster28:55

I'm not very happy in amongst a lot of traffic, a lot of fuss, a lot of people. I'm not an urban boy. Never have been.

Presenter29:02

Record number seven.

Duke Of Westminster29:04

Number seven is the Rodetsky March, and this goes back to my army life, as it were. The Rodetsky March is wonderfully cavalry. I'm in the Territorial Army, but more specifically, I'm in the Yeomanry, which is the cavalry side of the Territorial Army. And the Rodetsky March is wonderfully cavalry. It shows all that flash and dare of cavalrymen of old, and I hope of the modern day one as well.

Presenter30:27

Johann Strauss's Raditzki March, played by the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra and conducted by Ferenc Fritschai. I meant to ask you about Eaton Hall, the family seat, which your father, I think, rebuilt in in nineteen seventy three. Much criticised. I think even your friend the Prince of Wales has called it the Inn on the Park.

Duke Of Westminster30:43

The inner

Duke Of Westminster30:45

Cosmic.

Presenter30:45

Do you like it?

Duke Of Westminster30:47

I didn't like it. Um we've now rebuilt it and um again

Presenter30:50

Again.

Duke Of Westminster30:50

Again, because it seems to be a tradition of my family never to be satisfied in what they were living in at the time, and so therefore changing it.

Presenter30:57

But you didn't demolish the whole thing.

Duke Of Westminster30:58

didn't demolish it, but just about demolished it, moved out of it for three years, and um then reconstructed really the whole house.

Presenter31:06

But it does seem a terrible shame that somebody who owns some of the most classically beautiful buildings in Britain lives in a kind of modernistic construction. Doesn't it?

Duke Of Westminster31:14

Yes, I think um perhaps it may may may seem odd. However, I think it is again a piece of architectural history, like it or not, that I can leave behind me.

Presenter31:25

But you like it that way.

Duke Of Westminster31:26

I like it very much.

Duke Of Westminster31:28

And it's now or the Führerbunker, as somebody else refi referred it to it. It had a number of names. In fact, there was one moment when I was about to put up a signpost with all the names on it, so we could have a competition.

Presenter31:33

In fact, there was one

Presenter31:38

So let's pretend now then that you are about to be shipwrecked, and the money is no use to you any more at all. You're cast away, you're alone.

Duke Of Westminster31:41

No.

Presenter31:45

How will you cope?

Duke Of Westminster31:46

I would cope really, I think, very well. I was born and bred on an island, in the middle of a very large lake, with only one or two houses on it. I'd be very happy on my island. I would look forward to it, in fact.

Presenter31:57

So yours isn't a tropical island. Yours is in the middle of Locherne.

Duke Of Westminster32:00

No, my island would be probably either off the west coast of Ireland or the west coast of Scotland. I don't want any of this tropics business. I couldn't go through a year without seeing the changes of the seasons. And uh so therefore I would pick a temperate isle. I would not pick a tropical isle. Also I would like

Duke Of Westminster32:16

the wind, and having been born in a rainstorm, I'm quite happy to live in one for the rest of my life, so rain's not a problem and the crashing waves would send me to sleep at night.

Duke Of Westminster32:27

So wonderfully unromantic, and none of this heat.

Presenter32:30

Fast record.

Duke Of Westminster32:32

My last record in many ways refers to what I've just said, in terms of the fact that I believe this record really so clearly and so cleverly sums up within and contained within its music the West Coast, whether it be the West Coast of Ireland or the West Coast of Scotland. Both coasts I love dearly. And it is Wings, the Marle of Kintyre.

Duke Of Westminster32:54

Uh

Speaker 432:54

Uh All of Ginta, all mystering in from the sea. My desire is always to be all of Ginta.

Presenter33:13

Wings and Mull of Kin Tyre, if you could only take one of those records with you, Gerald.

Duke Of Westminster33:19

I would take Albatross because I think when my storm is blowing I think I would play it to myself and it would calm me down, although it wouldn't calm the storm down, but it would certainly calm me down.

Presenter33:30

What about a book?

Duke Of Westminster33:31

One of the only reasons I ever got a history O level was as a result of reading a number of

Duke Of Westminster33:38

boys books, as it were. And the one I would select is or was written by G. A. Henty through Russian Snows because quite

Duke Of Westminster33:47

Categorically, I'm going to enter my second childhood whilst I'm on my island, as I shall read through Russian Snows by G. A. Henty, playing Albatross.

Presenter33:55

What about a luxury?

Duke Of Westminster33:56

My luxury would be a telescope.

Duke Of Westminster33:59

And I would be able to watch my albatross through the telescope, um if I'm allowed one and I would be able to watch other forms of life through my telescope and when I became very old and exceedingly decrepit and half blind I'd be able to read my G A Hente through Russian snows through it. So it would have a dual purpose, which I would look forward to.

Presenter34:19

Gerald Grosvenor, Duke of Westminster, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert islanders.

Duke Of Westminster34:22

Thank you very much.

Speaker 334:31

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Speaker 435:16

Uh