Lavinia Young

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirstie Young, and this is a recording of Desert Island Discs as it was being broadcast, rather than the studio recording.

Speaker 10:07

and for that reason you may hear some interference, and some degradation in the sound quality.

Speaker 10:14

For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in 1964.

Speaker 10:21

and the presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:24

Our castaway this week is a nurse. She is matron of London's great Westminster Hospital, Miss Lavinia Young.

Presenter0:30

Miss Young, how well could you face loneliness?

Lavinia Young0:34

I think I could face it fairly well because I should be in the open air. I never feel lonely out of doors.

Lavinia Young0:42

Because there's always so much colour and movement, particularly by the scene.

Lavinia Young0:47

I hope there will be birds and little animals who would become my friends.

Lavinia Young0:52

and I could help them if they were injured.

Presenter0:55

What would you be happiest to have left behind?

Lavinia Young0:58

The noise and stress and strains of modern life

Lavinia Young1:03

And I should look forward to having

Lavinia Young1:06

Time to think.

Presenter1:08

Is music important to you?

Lavinia Young1:11

Not very important.

Presenter1:13

Do you play records much?

Lavinia Young1:15

No, I do not have a record player, but I hope to when I retire.

Lavinia Young1:20

And then I hope to understand music perhaps better than I do at present.

Presenter1:24

How did you set about choosing these eight records to take with you?

Lavinia Young1:28

All the records will

Lavinia Young1:30

remind me of the many friends who have helped me throughout my life.

Lavinia Young1:37

They will also remind me of happy times I have had.

Lavinia Young1:43

And in some cases perhaps they will

Lavinia Young1:46

Help me to endure the ordeal.

Presenter1:49

What's the first one?

Lavinia Young1:51

I should like my first record to be The Folk Song Sweet by Vaughan Williams.

Presenter1:56

Which bot had it?

Lavinia Young1:57

The folk song's from Somerset.

Presenter1:59

Do you come from Samuel Zill?

Lavinia Young1:59

No, I don't. I come from Dorset, Shaftesbury in North Dorset, which stands seven hundred feet above sea level.

Lavinia Young2:07

And from part of the town we can see right into Somerset.

Presenter2:12

And why do you choose these folks on?

Lavinia Young2:14

Because they would remind me of my very happy childhood.

Lavinia Young2:19

and the happiness and good will of country people enjoying themselves dancing.

Presenter3:27

Part of the Vaughan Williams folk song suite, Frederick Pennell.

Presenter3:31

conducting the Eastmond Symphonic Wind Ensemble.

Presenter3:35

What's your second choice?

Lavinia Young3:36

My second choice is a carol sung by the Westminster Abbey Choir.

Lavinia Young3:41

Whence is that goodly fragrance?

Lavinia Young3:44

Christmas has always had a special significance for me.

Lavinia Young3:48

And this carol would remind me of Christmas

Lavinia Young3:51

spent in the country.

Lavinia Young3:54

The Christmas I Spent

Lavinia Young3:56

When I started nursing

Lavinia Young3:58

in a children's hospital.

Lavinia Young4:00

And the Christmas is more recently.

Lavinia Young4:04

at the Westminster Hospital.

Lavinia Young4:06

when the Westminster Abbey Choir come on Christmas Eve to sing to the patients.

Speaker 34:22

We are here.

Speaker 34:55

He was a king.

Presenter5:09

The carol Whence is that goodly fragrance? by the Westminster Abbey Choir.

Presenter5:13

Miss Young, is there any tradition in your family of medicine or nursing?

Lavinia Young5:18

I had a great-aunt and an aunt who were nurses.

Lavinia Young5:22

But I did not know them, so it was not influenced in any way.

Presenter5:27

What was it your earliest ambition to be?

Lavinia Young5:30

I thought at one time I should like to be able to write.

Presenter5:34

Faction.

Lavinia Young5:35

Uh yes?

Presenter5:36

Hmm.

Lavinia Young5:37

I have a fairly vivid imagination.

Lavinia Young5:40

And I have always been fond of reading and

Lavinia Young5:44

Perhaps when I retire I shall have time to

Lavinia Young5:48

Right. I shall certainly have a wealth of experiences to draw upon.

Presenter5:52

Surely. How did you first become interested in nursing?

Lavinia Young5:56

Because

Lavinia Young5:58

I was always very fond of children and

Lavinia Young6:01

took an interest in doctor Bernardo's homes.

Lavinia Young6:04

I was fascinated to read in a little booklet they published about the children.

Lavinia Young6:09

particularly about the tech children in the homes.

Lavinia Young6:12

And eventually I uh started my training.

Lavinia Young6:17

or the Sick Children's Register at the Belgrave Hospital in London.

Presenter6:21

And after that?

Lavinia Young6:22

After that

Lavinia Young6:24

Midwifery training, a short period of private nursing.

Lavinia Young6:29

Back to Kings as a staff midwife and a staff nurse and later as Knight Sister.

Presenter6:35

I believe the Ward Sister is looked upon as the the backbone of any hospital.

Lavinia Young6:40

She certainly is. I have a very high regard for the work.

Lavinia Young6:45

of Award Sister.

Presenter6:47

You were at King's College Hospital during the Blondon Blitz.

Lavinia Young6:50

Yeah.

Presenter6:51

I believe the hospital was more or less evacuated and it became a gigantic casualty clearing station for a large and densely populated area.

Lavinia Young7:00

Yes, it did.

Lavinia Young7:01

We had a large number of casualties admitted every night.

Presenter7:04

Yes. A a terrible time for you.

Lavinia Young7:07

Yes, it was, although looking back I remember

Lavinia Young7:11

Chiefly the cheerfulness and courage of all the people in the hospital, including the patients.

Lavinia Young7:16

and the good humour of the cockney cleaners who used to come in regularly in the mornings whatever had happened during the night.

Presenter7:22

Mm-hmm. Now working pretty well round the clock like that. What what do you think kept you going?

Lavinia Young7:28

I think I

Lavinia Young7:30

I felt very angry.

Lavinia Young7:32

And when the bombs were falling I used to mumble to myself

Lavinia Young7:37

Man's inhumanity to man.

Presenter7:40

You stayed at King's College Hospital right through the war.

Lavinia Young7:43

Yeah.

Lavinia Young7:44

In various post.

Presenter7:46

Hmm.

Lavinia Young7:46

And then when

Lavinia Young7:48

to the Royal Hospital at Richmond as assistant matron.

Lavinia Young7:53

Later

Lavinia Young7:54

to the Westminster Hospital as assistant matron, then deputy matron.

Lavinia Young7:59

and matrimon in nineteen fifty one.

Presenter8:02

Well, that's brought your career up to date, so let's have your third record now.

Lavinia Young8:08

My third record I should like to be

Lavinia Young8:11

The sound of music.

Presenter8:12

Why'd you chose that?

Lavinia Young8:12

Why'd you chose that? Because it would remind me of a wonderful trip I had during 1961 when I was sent to attend

Lavinia Young8:23

A Congress in Melbourne arranged by the International Council of Nurses.

Lavinia Young8:29

Three friends came with me and we chose to get them back by going round the world.

Lavinia Young8:34

And we did this in 68 days.

Lavinia Young8:37

and thoroughly enjoyed the trip.

Lavinia Young8:40

We received wonderful hospitality.

Speaker 18:41

Receive

Lavinia Young8:43

We made new friends.

Lavinia Young8:46

and incidentally saw some hospitals.

Lavinia Young8:50

In New York

Lavinia Young8:51

We were taken to the sound of music.

Lavinia Young8:54

Mary Martin was in the cast.

Lavinia Young8:57

and therefore the record would remind me of that very happy time

Lavinia Young9:04

Since then I have seen the show in London.

Lavinia Young9:07

and enjoyed it with friends.

Lavinia Young9:11

And I should recall the time spent with them.

Lavinia Young9:17

Uh listening to the music and hearing it.

Presenter9:19

Which part of the sound of music are we going to hear?

Lavinia Young9:22

I should like to hear the part where the children

Lavinia Young9:25

are being taught to sing.

Lavinia Young9:28

because this would also remind me

Lavinia Young9:32

Of children, I should enjoy hearing their voices and feeling, I think, through the music something of their happy enthusiasm.

Speaker 39:41

So I hear a demon dear pray on the

Speaker 39:57

The needle voting bay.

Speaker 39:59

I don't think so.

Speaker 310:04

Yeah.

Presenter10:11

Mary Martin

Presenter10:13

Miss Young, what are the responsibilities of a matron?

Lavinia Young10:17

There are two main responsibilities. The first to make sure that the patients are being well nursed and cared for.

Lavinia Young10:26

Secondly, that student and pupil nurses, if the hospital is a training centre,

Lavinia Young10:33

are well taught and prepared

Lavinia Young10:36

to accept their responsibilities.

Lavinia Young10:40

And if

Lavinia Young10:41

carry out these two tasks.

Lavinia Young10:44

The matron must make sure that she has

Lavinia Young10:47

an efficient

Lavinia Young10:49

keen, enthusiastic.

Lavinia Young10:51

and well qualified

Lavinia Young10:54

Trained nursing staff.

Presenter10:56

Hmm.

Presenter10:56

Now the Westminster isn't merely a hospital, it's a group of hospitals.

Lavinia Young11:00

It is. It's a group of hospitals now, yes.

Presenter11:02

Uh the main hospital itself is i is a Martin building, isn't it?

Lavinia Young11:06

Yes, it was opened by the late king in 1939, just before the war started.

Presenter11:12

But it's it's an old established hospital.

Lavinia Young11:14

A very old established hospital. It was founded in 1715.

Lavinia Young11:19

and has moved its site three times since then.

Presenter11:24

Yeah.

Presenter11:25

But it's always served this historic area of London.

Lavinia Young11:28

Very. One feels one is living in the middle of history.

Lavinia Young11:32

It is often known as Parliament's own hospital.

Lavinia Young11:37

and we have close associations with Westminster Abbey.

Presenter11:41

Hmm.

Presenter11:42

How many beds are there in the group?

Lavinia Young11:44

In the group there are now over 1,000 beds.

Presenter11:47

Which means a staff of how many?

Lavinia Young11:50

A nursing staff of nearly one thousand.

Presenter11:53

There is still a shortage of nurses, isn't it?

Lavinia Young11:55

There is a shortage of nurses in the country as a whole.

Presenter12:00

There are so many new medical techniques coming along all the time. This this must mean constant refresher courses.

Lavinia Young12:06

Yes, it does. Medical science is advancing very rapidly indeed.

Presenter12:10

Is there any major reform that you think would be a good idea in the running of hospitals or in the planning of new ones?

Lavinia Young12:17

I think in the planning of new ones, particularly in this more technical age,

Lavinia Young12:23

It is very important that the comfort, of course, and well-being of the patient is put in the front of the picture.

Lavinia Young12:31

that the new hospitals are not allowed to become too impersonal.

Lavinia Young12:38

I think a happy family feeling in a hospital

Lavinia Young12:41

is very important.

Presenter12:44

Let's have record number four now.

Lavinia Young12:47

with piano, concerto and A minor by Gree.

Presenter12:51

Why'd you choose this?

Lavinia Young12:51

I think this is lovely music.

Lavinia Young12:55

I heard it first, played by Miss Eileen Joyce in the Royal Albert Hall.

Lavinia Young13:01

And I remember reading a programme note

Lavinia Young13:04

which stated that Greg had written it during his honeymoon.

Lavinia Young13:09

And I think his wife must have been a very happy woman to have inspired

Lavinia Young13:15

Such beautiful music.

Presenter14:21

The opening of Grieg's piano concerto in A minor, Eileen Joyce with the Royal Danish Orchestra.

Presenter14:28

Miss Young, the emotional side of nursing.

Presenter14:31

Nurses see so much heartbreak.

Presenter14:34

Now no emotion can be shown, but by the fact that she chose to be a nurse, she must be a very sensitive and compassionate person. What's the answer here? Does a nurse grow to feel less, or is it a question of control?

Lavinia Young14:49

I have given a lot of thought to this question.

Lavinia Young14:52

And I

Lavinia Young14:53

Feel sure it is a question of control.

Lavinia Young14:56

When a patient, for instance, dies in a ward,

Lavinia Young15:00

There are relatives to be taken care of and comforted.

Lavinia Young15:03

and then always the needs of the other patients.

Lavinia Young15:08

have to be considered.

Presenter15:09

Yes.

Presenter15:11

Recently there's been a flood of fictionalization of hospital life. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Lavinia Young15:17

In some ways, obviously, it is a good thing.

Lavinia Young15:21

But I hold somewhat old-fashioned views, perhaps, on this subject.

Lavinia Young15:26

I

Lavinia Young15:27

Like to.

Lavinia Young15:29

feel that the dignity

Lavinia Young15:31

of each individual is upheld.

Lavinia Young15:35

And

Lavinia Young15:36

I think that

Lavinia Young15:38

Some aspects of illness.

Lavinia Young15:41

should still be regarded.

Lavinia Young15:43

as almost sacred.

Lavinia Young15:45

I think perhaps also people had more faith when they knew less.

Presenter15:51

Matrons have a reputation, and not, this doesn't apply to the ones I've met, and in your case it's completely unjustified, but matrons have this reputation.

Lavinia Young15:57

Yeah.

Presenter16:00

for being dragons.

Presenter16:02

How did this start?

Lavinia Young16:03

I think it started perhaps in the Florence Nightingale era when women had to work very hard.

Lavinia Young16:11

to improve the status of nursing.

Lavinia Young16:15

And they had to be strict disciplinarian.

Lavinia Young16:19

They had to exercise great authority.

Lavinia Young16:24

And but for them

Lavinia Young16:26

modern nursing would not have developed as we know it to day.

Presenter16:31

You've travelled round the world and had an opportunity to see the hospitals of many countries.

Presenter16:36

How do British hospitals compare?

Presenter16:39

With others.

Lavinia Young16:40

They compare very favourably.

Lavinia Young16:42

In America, the hospitals are

Lavinia Young16:47

Better equip.

Lavinia Young16:49

And they are designed

Lavinia Young16:51

for the purposes for which they were intended. I mean, many of them are newer than the ones we have in England.

Lavinia Young17:01

But of course it costs a great deal to be ill in America.

Lavinia Young17:05

And uh

Lavinia Young17:07

I came back feeling

Lavinia Young17:09

We're proud of our hospitals and of the nursing care the patients receive.

Presenter17:15

Let's have record number five, please.

Lavinia Young17:17

You asked me at the beginning of the programme about loneliness.

Lavinia Young17:21

And I gave you a hopeful answer.

Lavinia Young17:24

But obviously there would be

Lavinia Young17:27

Storm and tempest, the sun would not shine all the time.

Lavinia Young17:32

and I should no doubt feel terror.

Lavinia Young17:35

And loneliness.

Lavinia Young17:37

and the words of the next record

Lavinia Young17:40

Wood voice.

Lavinia Young17:42

My hope.

Lavinia Young17:44

Therefore may we have abide with me.

Lavinia Young17:47

Sung by Dame Clara Belt.

Speaker 317:52

The fine wind

Speaker 317:58

For the even aside the songs even

Speaker 318:10

Lord with me of life.

Speaker 318:16

Where mother

Speaker 318:28

Oh, who changes that bond with me?

Speaker 318:40

My neat thy breath, every falling out.

Speaker 318:48

What but thy grace can go the tempered mind?

Presenter18:56

Clara Butt, what's your next record?

Lavinia Young19:01

My next record, She Loves You The Beatles, yes.

Presenter19:03

B the

Speaker 319:04

Uh

Lavinia Young19:05

Because

Lavinia Young19:08

of my fondness for young people.

Lavinia Young19:10

This record will remind me of my niece and nephew, my little godchildren.

Lavinia Young19:16

and also of all the student nurses.

Lavinia Young19:19

who are such fun and thoroughly enjoy, for instance, the annual ball.

Lavinia Young19:26

I think this would remind me of the

Lavinia Young19:29

Vitality and resilience.

Lavinia Young19:32

of the young people of today. I have a great admiration for them.

Speaker 319:38

Love every day.

Speaker 319:41

Yeah.

Speaker 319:50

You'll think you've lost your love.

Speaker 319:53

Well I saw her yesterday, ayy It's you she's thinking of

Speaker 319:59

And she told me what to say. She said she loves you. And you know that can't be bad.

Presenter20:08

Uh

Lavinia Young20:08

What are your hobbies?

Lavinia Young20:10

I enjoy reading.

Lavinia Young20:12

And I think I am going to enjoy cooking when I retire, because I thoroughly enjoy people coming to call.

Lavinia Young20:21

I hope we shall have many happy meal times together in the future.

Lavinia Young20:28

I also enjoy gardening.

Presenter20:30

Yeah.

Lavinia Young20:30

But uh particularly the part when you actually pull up the vegetables or pick the flowers.

Presenter20:36

Mm-hmm.

Presenter20:37

With this interest in cultivation, do you think you'll be able to live off the land on the island?

Lavinia Young20:41

I think I should. I should try very hard and a nurse in any case is a usually a practical

Lavinia Young20:48

An adaptable person.

Presenter20:50

Would you try to escape?

Lavinia Young20:52

I hope I should have the courage to do so if the opportunity arose.

Presenter20:56

Let's have record number seven.

Lavinia Young20:58

I should like

Lavinia Young20:59

Nimrod

Lavinia Young21:01

From the Enigma variations by Elgar.

Lavinia Young21:05

Uh it's difficult to explain, Mr. Plamley.

Lavinia Young21:09

But it would remind me of my home.

Lavinia Young21:13

It is, I think, very gracious music.

Lavinia Young21:16

And um

Lavinia Young21:18

It would also remind me

Lavinia Young21:20

of, for instance, Salisbury Cathedral, which I'm always very fond of visiting.

Lavinia Young21:26

There's something intangible about this I find it hard to explain.

Lavinia Young21:30

But I should very much like to have it now, please.

Presenter22:35

Nimrod from the Enigma variation.

Presenter22:37

Sir Thomas Beacham conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

Presenter22:41

What's your last choice going to be?

Lavinia Young22:43

My last choice, a great hymn of praise.

Lavinia Young22:47

The Allelube are chorus by handel.

Lavinia Young22:51

I think there is always something to praise God for.

Lavinia Young22:55

And this would be a record which would

Lavinia Young22:59

Remind me of this fact.

Lavinia Young23:02

and which would indeed inspire and uplift

Lavinia Young23:07

My spirits.

Presenter24:10

The Hallelujah chorus from Handrel's Messiah

Presenter24:14

Sir Malcolm Sartin conducting the Hudderseel Choral Society and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra.

Presenter24:20

If you would only take one of these eight records, which would it be, monsieur?

Lavinia Young24:24

The Allelu La Course, uh

Lavinia Young24:26

Unless it was a two-sided record and then perhaps I could have a vibe with me on the other side.

Presenter24:31

Uh

Lavinia Young24:31

Ha ha.

Presenter24:32

Single-sided, I'm afraid.

Presenter24:35

And

Presenter24:35

One book to take with you, apart from the Bible and Shakespeare.

Lavinia Young24:39

I should like

Lavinia Young24:41

A really up-to-date book on astronomy with appropriate star maps.

Presenter24:45

This is a great interview.

Lavinia Young24:46

Yes, the universe is always.

Lavinia Young24:49

fascinated me. I think it is intensely beautiful and I should be glad of an opportunity to study it more closely.

Presenter24:58

And one luxury.

Lavinia Young25:00

One luxury I think it'll have to be a telescope.

Lavinia Young25:03

Because then perhaps I could

Lavinia Young25:06

See spacecraft.

Lavinia Young25:08

and feel in touch with modern life.

Presenter25:13

Well, I I hope you'll luck it.

Lavinia Young25:15

May I be very greedy and have a bookmark?

Lavinia Young25:18

A photograph of Michelangelo's Pietà, please.

Presenter25:22

All righty.

Presenter25:23

And thank you, Lavinia Young, for letting us hear your choice of Desert Island Disc.

Lavinia Young25:28

Thank you for inviting me to come, mister Plumleigh. I have thoroughly enjoyed

Lavinia Young25:34

the time spent here and I hope the listeners

Lavinia Young25:38

Will have then joined the record.

Presenter25:40

Goodbye everyone.

Speaker 125:44

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter25:55

The guest in today's recorded programme, first broadcast in December, was Lavinia Young, matron of the Westminster Hospital.