Berthold Goldschmidt

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety four, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is a composer. Born in Hamburg ninety-one years ago, he enjoyed a brilliant early career as a conductor and composer, working with many famous musicians and orchestras. But the Nazis came to power and being a Jew, he was forced to flee. He came to Britain and worked for the BBC and Gleinborn, but the musical establishment of his adopted homeland thought his music old fashioned and neglected him.

Presenter0:55

Now in the declining years of his life he's found himself being rediscovered. His work has been performed at the proms, recorded, and is eagerly received by audiences in Germany, France, and America. He remains philosophical about this late fame, but admits I miss my enemies. It would have been nice to show them. He is Bertolt

Presenter1:18

Which you laugh at which particular enemies do you have in mind, mister Goldschmidt?

Berthold Goldschmidt1:22

Well, there are so many that I wouldn't wouldn't start enumerating them.

Presenter1:27

But who was it who shut you out from the the musical establishment?

Berthold Goldschmidt1:31

was actually after Morris Johnston.

Presenter1:31

Uh

Berthold Goldschmidt1:34

ceased to be head of music and uh William Glock was established. I had very good personal relations with William Glock.

Presenter1:43

He he took over as controller of music at the BBC in fifty nine.

Berthold Goldschmidt1:46

And uh

Berthold Goldschmidt1:49

He, together with a second Viennese school, or third Viennese school, or post-Wayburn school.

Berthold Goldschmidt1:56

established the rigid rule that nothing has got to be performed which has anything to do with the pre Second World War cultural scene.

Presenter2:07

So it was only modern music, it it was Benjamin Britton, it wasn't Bertold Goldschmidt.

Berthold Goldschmidt2:13

No, no, no, Ben was written. It it was performed and Hindemeet was performed. Some of the well established names couldn't very well be swept under the carpet, so to speak, but people who were

Berthold Goldschmidt2:27

Not very well known and could could easily be.

Berthold Goldschmidt2:31

disregarded, had to suffer.

Presenter2:34

So how does it feel these days to be fated once more? I mean, do you derive a deep satisfaction from it, or are you really rather amused?

Berthold Goldschmidt2:43

I'm rather amused because these ups and downs are something natural throughout one's cultural life and throughout his the history of art.

Presenter2:55

But the fact that you were not in favour meant that your down, as it were, lasted a very long time. There must in any pleasure you feel at this Indian summer you're enjoying now there must be some regret in there that it didn't happen before.

Berthold Goldschmidt3:09

Yeah.

Berthold Goldschmidt3:11

There is, of course, a certain regret, because

Berthold Goldschmidt3:14

Life is passing by and one.

Berthold Goldschmidt3:17

wants to enjoy a little bit of fruit.

Berthold Goldschmidt3:20

Even if it's only a small ration.

Presenter3:23

Well, now, tell me about the first piece of music that you take to your desert island.

Berthold Goldschmidt3:28

My first piece of music is the Sinfinietta Bianacek.

Berthold Goldschmidt3:33

Throughout my choice of records there are three criterions. First of all, the character and the quality of the music. Secondly, the quality of the performance. And thirdly, my personal connections with with the artists or with the experience of the performance. So this Janacek Sinfonietta I've chosen because

Berthold Goldschmidt3:56

When I heard it the first time conducted by Klemper in Berlin, I was completely overwhelmed by its originality.

Berthold Goldschmidt4:04

Secondly, I I've chosen it because he was present personally during the music festival in nineteen twenty-seven in Frankfurt, and I heard Janatzzeck performed by Foltwingler during that festival. So that is a marvelous link. I've seen the old man, the great master, and his work was conducted by Klemper and by Foltwingler.

Presenter5:33

The opening of Janicek's Sinfonietta played by the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Carol Ancel.

Presenter5:39

It was, of course, Bertold Goldschmidt, the Nazis, who first professionally eliminated you. Your your work and your reputation had been flourishing up till then, hadn't you? You were, until that point in the thirties, the great new hope of German music.

Berthold Goldschmidt5:55

Well, it wasn't flushing, it was budding, let's put it that way, because they were

Berthold Goldschmidt5:59

Many very gifted composers must seem uh of my generation who had

Presenter6:03

But you'd conducted the Berlin State Agency.

Berthold Goldschmidt6:04

Well, yes, well in in Pergint. You see, if I I worked as a repertoire.

Presenter6:09

You'd also won prizes for your composition, a composition which had been admired by Schoenberg himself.

Berthold Goldschmidt6:15

That was the string quartet. It was performed in nineteen twenty five at uh the final concert of the the Schrecker Masterclass, and my uh quartet was the last on the programme. And uh Schoenberg, as a colleague and uh personal friend of Schrecker's, who was my uh mentor, of course, surprisingly appeared in what we call the green room and uh approached me and uh stretched out his hand and said I congratulate you. Your work has had quite a success.

Berthold Goldschmidt6:51

And I said to him, Thank you very much, Professor, very nice of you to say that. And then he waited and looked at me and his features were a little twitching and

Berthold Goldschmidt7:02

And he expected me to say, May I now continue my studies with you? Which I didn't do because I was afraid that I would be captured into the very, very strict and doctrinaire clique of uh his pupils.

Presenter7:19

But also, as this this very successful young man we're describing, um you were invited to conduct the Leningrad Philharmonic, weren't you? You went went to Russia. You also there met Shostakovich, didn't you?

Berthold Goldschmidt7:26

Aren't you sure you would

Berthold Goldschmidt7:30

Yes, yes. I I was in my hotel and the hotel reception rang me. There are two young men.

Berthold Goldschmidt7:38

Downstairs who would like to meet you? I said, Do do they speak German? Because I have no Russian. Yes, one of them speaks uh German, the other one not a word. As far as I understand, they had been present at one of your rehearsals with the Liphilharmonic Orchestra and they want to see you. All right, I opened the door. And there were two young men and uh one of them introduced himself. Uh my name is Solat Tinski, I speak German fluently, and this is my friend Dmitry Shostakovich.

Berthold Goldschmidt8:08

Oh, I said, please do come in So we sat down round the table.

Berthold Goldschmidt8:12

And we got into a conversation. They asked me what I'd been doing and I told them about my opera, Le Croquien Monifique, which was uh scheduled for the coming spring. And then Shostelkovich asked me, have you got any anything else in mind to compose a second opera?

Berthold Goldschmidt8:31

And I said, Yes, yes, this is very strange, because shortly before I left Berlin I got hold in a second hand bookshop of a little volume of short stories by Lieskov, and one one of these stories appeared to be

Berthold Goldschmidt8:49

to me most suitable for an opera, namely, Lady Macbeth of Minsk.

Berthold Goldschmidt8:55

There was silence.

Berthold Goldschmidt8:57

Shostakovich got a little pale and Solatinsky turned to him or mumbled something and

Berthold Goldschmidt9:03

And then he turned to me.

Berthold Goldschmidt9:05

But Dmitri has just finished writing this off.

Presenter9:09

What did you do? You backed off immediately, did you?

Berthold Goldschmidt9:11

Well, I said in that case, of course I wouldn't even consider it.

Presenter9:15

Let's have your next record.

Berthold Goldschmidt9:17

The second recording is the presentation of the Silver Rose in the Rosencavalier. That scene is the prototype of youthful love, which at that age I had experienced and I found myself very much in line with Octavian and Sophie. Secondly, it was again a performance which I had seen conducted by the grand old man, namely Richard Strauss. And thirdly, it was conducted by Eris Kleiber in the most brilliant and personal way, which I will never forget. And even Richard Strauss, when he visited one of the performances conducted by Eris Kleiber, he sat in the box and I could watch Strauss at several places during Kleiber's conducting.

Berthold Goldschmidt10:18

Strauss's face beamed with delight.

Speaker 410:28

I see you all.

Speaker 410:36

Uh

Presenter11:16

Hilde Guden and Senna Urinatz and the Presentation of the Silver Rose from Richard Strauss's Der Rosen Cavalier, with the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Erich Kleiber.

Presenter11:26

And then in nineteen thirty three, of course, the Nazis came to power, and the musical paradise that you inhabited came to an end. Was it a cumulative business, or did you find yourself out of work overnight?

Berthold Goldschmidt11:40

completely overnight because

Berthold Goldschmidt11:42

It came down like like an iron curtain. Not slowly, but it came down like a like a geogene.

Presenter11:49

So your work stopped being performed and you were out of work.

Berthold Goldschmidt11:51

Don't do it.

Berthold Goldschmidt11:52

Yeah.

Presenter11:53

And your music, along along with um that of other Jewish people, was labelled entartita musik, degenerate music, wasn't it?

Berthold Goldschmidt12:01

You know, that came a little later, but uh first of all it was just non-Aryan music out.

Presenter12:06

So how did you survive during that time? How did you make a living?

Berthold Goldschmidt12:09

That was very difficult. That was very difficult. Private lessons, which.

Berthold Goldschmidt12:14

According to the law, we are not allowed to be given to non-Jewish people.

Presenter12:20

Giving piano lessons.

Berthold Goldschmidt12:21

coaching singers, uh piano lessons, uh teaching harmony and uh composition. You know, the what one does as a as a musician to scrap a living together.

Presenter12:32

So what made you decide to go in the end?

Berthold Goldschmidt12:34

Well, I was summoned to uh to the headquarters of the Gestapo. I got a notification one morning. I appeared on the dot, of course, and was up first floor.

Berthold Goldschmidt12:46

And I came to a door on either side there were two

Berthold Goldschmidt12:50

S S. People in black uniform sitting at a table.

Berthold Goldschmidt12:54

And they said, Hey, Hitler.

Berthold Goldschmidt12:57

I said

Berthold Goldschmidt12:58

Good morning.

Berthold Goldschmidt13:00

Heil Hitna they shouted at me.

Berthold Goldschmidt13:02

I said, Well, I'm not supposed to say that.

Berthold Goldschmidt13:06

We know that. Go in.

Berthold Goldschmidt13:08

So I came into a room, there were about ten or twelve tables.

Berthold Goldschmidt13:12

An official sitting at each table, some in uniform, some in mafti.

Berthold Goldschmidt13:17

And I was waived by somebody in Mafti, and I said that on his desk. There was a huge file.

Berthold Goldschmidt13:23

With the

Berthold Goldschmidt13:24

press cuttings about me with photographs and so on. And he opened his chess game with the observation You have been to Russia, haven't you?

Berthold Goldschmidt13:36

I said yes.

Berthold Goldschmidt13:37

So you are a communist?

Berthold Goldschmidt13:39

I said no.

Berthold Goldschmidt13:40

Nobody goes to Russia who is not a communist. I said, I'm afraid to say this is not true, because, for instance, at s on the same evening when I arrived, George Bernard Shaw had just left the hotel in in which I was staying. Yeah, but he is he he is an Englishman, isn't he? Well, he said, Yes, he's Irish, but um

Presenter13:55

Yeah, but

Presenter13:56

It's an English.

Berthold Goldschmidt14:00

We don't want to discuss matters. What do you live on?

Berthold Goldschmidt14:04

I said private lessons.

Berthold Goldschmidt14:06

What are you teaching?

Berthold Goldschmidt14:08

What's on in coaching?

Berthold Goldschmidt14:10

Songs and

Berthold Goldschmidt14:12

teaching harmony and piano.

Berthold Goldschmidt14:16

How much do you take for the lesson?

Berthold Goldschmidt14:18

Three marks.

Berthold Goldschmidt14:20

Three mugs.

Berthold Goldschmidt14:23

My daughter pays five marks for the lesson.

Berthold Goldschmidt14:28

Silence.

Berthold Goldschmidt14:31

So I took

Berthold Goldschmidt14:32

the initiative and said

Berthold Goldschmidt14:35

Does your daughter play the piano?

Berthold Goldschmidt14:38

And he looked at me in surprise that I dared to ask him a question, and he looked at me and said

Berthold Goldschmidt14:43

Yes.

Berthold Goldschmidt14:45

Then what does she play?

Berthold Goldschmidt14:48

No answer from him. I said, I suppose Schumann, Kindersen, yes, Kindersen. And and Schubert, he said, Moman musico?

Berthold Goldschmidt14:59

And then there was a little pause, and then he turned over to my ear and said Get out of this country as soon as you can.

Berthold Goldschmidt15:08

And he closed the file.

Presenter15:12

And you got out. You took the advice. But you don't you wouldn't have been given that advice, are you suggesting, unless you

Presenter15:19

somehow made that musical link.

Berthold Goldschmidt15:22

Exactly.

Berthold Goldschmidt15:24

It shows that in some cases the Nazi

Berthold Goldschmidt15:28

Skin was very thin.

Berthold Goldschmidt15:30

He probably thought, Well, what are we doing actually?

Presenter15:34

Hmm.

Berthold Goldschmidt15:34

Yeah.

Presenter15:36

Record number three.

Berthold Goldschmidt15:38

Yes.

Berthold Goldschmidt15:40

That is a piece which I heard in nineteen eighty seven in Berlin, during the Berlin Festival.

Berthold Goldschmidt15:49

It was a a string trio by Schoenberg. It was written shortly after he had survived an almost fatal heart attack, and this composition reflects apparently luckily I haven't had a heart attack yet.

Berthold Goldschmidt16:11

the pain and the convulsion.

Berthold Goldschmidt16:15

which apparently goes with the opening stages of her heart attack.

Berthold Goldschmidt16:19

The vividness and the impulse and the conviction with which it must have been written down impressed me enormously.

Presenter17:29

The opening of Schoenberg's string trio, Op. 45, played by Jan Pospichall, Wolfgang Kloss, and Wilfrid Rehm.

Presenter17:37

So you came to this country, Bertold Goldschmidt, in 1935, and your wife, I think, managed to get out later, but she was not Jewish, which was a.

Berthold Goldschmidt17:46

She was not Jewish, but

Presenter17:47

A dangerous it was a subversive act to be married to a witch.

Berthold Goldschmidt17:49

Exactly. We we could not marry in Germany.

Berthold Goldschmidt17:53

And she was was the most marvelous character I've ever any

Berthold Goldschmidt17:58

Very intelligent, highly sophisticated, very beautiful woman.

Berthold Goldschmidt18:03

Who was the half sister of an S S Colonel?

Berthold Goldschmidt18:10

Who once said to her, If I see you with the Jew on the Kosastendam in Berlin, I'll knock him down and you, too.

Berthold Goldschmidt18:19

And she said, I'm very grateful for you that we tell me that.

Presenter18:25

So she came out too, as fast as she could. So you you you lost your career, but you gained your freedom and you kept your life.

Berthold Goldschmidt18:26

Mm-hmm.

Berthold Goldschmidt18:32

Yes.

Berthold Goldschmidt18:33

Yes, yes.

Presenter18:34

How many of your family didn't manage to do the same?

Berthold Goldschmidt18:37

My father, as well as my mother, had five brothers and sisters, and consequently I had quite a far-flung number of relatives. Out of this larger family, twenty two members perished in Auschwitz and Belsen, in in Sachsenhausen, in Dachau and so forth.

Presenter18:38

No.

Presenter18:57

Mm.

Presenter18:59

So you came here and you you set up home in a

Presenter19:02

Two roomed flat in Belsize Park, where you've lived ever since.

Berthold Goldschmidt19:05

Yes, yes.

Presenter19:06

How did you make a living?

Berthold Goldschmidt19:08

It started exactly the same way.

Presenter19:11

But of course you weren't able to bring your reputation with you, were you?

Berthold Goldschmidt19:11

But she went away.

Berthold Goldschmidt19:14

No, the reputation was well was it was not hard currency yet.

Presenter19:18

But here, in fact, you ended up working for the BBC during the war, broadcasting, or helping to broadcast this degenerate music, the the Mendelssohn and the Mahler, and bits of your own, to Germany.

Berthold Goldschmidt19:29

Yes, yes, my brief consisted of presenting band music and band artists.

Berthold Goldschmidt19:37

They were very well represented as performing artists, but music itself, like a symphony by Mahler.

Berthold Goldschmidt19:46

Very, very thin on the ground. So it was quite hard work to present at least one programme per week.

Presenter19:54

Let's pause there for some more music.

Berthold Goldschmidt19:56

Speaking of Mahler, very much later, of course, after the war, the luck came to me inasmuch as I became a collaborator of Derek Cook, a very excellent British musicologist, musician, and a marvellous person. Robert Simpson, another friend of mine, who was one of the chief producers in BBC's music division, said there are sketches to Mahler's Tenth Symphony, which is of course the unfinished work of Mahler.

Presenter20:03

In as much as

Presenter20:08

Yeah.

Berthold Goldschmidt20:30

I would like

Berthold Goldschmidt20:32

Derek Cook to look into that and

Berthold Goldschmidt20:35

Delcook set to work and realized from the sketches whole stretches of music which proved to be very beautiful music.

Berthold Goldschmidt20:47

He showed them to me, and the first thing through my letter box was the wonderful flute solo in the finale of that symphony.

Berthold Goldschmidt20:57

which, when we performed the whole work, brought the invited audience to tears. And I would like

Berthold Goldschmidt21:08

to hear that flute solo played by the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra under my dear friend, the great conductor Simon Retro.

Presenter22:21

The flute solo from Marler's Symphony No. 10, played by the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra conducted by Simon Rattle.

Presenter22:27

You wrote your second opera, Bertolt Goldschmidt, in nineteen fifty, Beatrice Cenchi, which won a prize, but was never performed. Your music, as I said at the outset, was was deemed, to put it bluntly, to be old fashioned.

Presenter22:42

Can you describe why that was? I mean, describe your music. What was wrong about it? Why didn't it fit?

Berthold Goldschmidt22:48

Beatriz Czechenchi, I wrote in nineteen forty nine, nineteen fifty, when there was an enormous interest in opera, resulting from the fact that so many of our troops and civilian people had been to Italy and experienced Bel Canto. And there was a flourishing of La Traviata and everything verdi and everything melodious and uh so I decided it would be a good idea to write a Bel Canto opera.

Berthold Goldschmidt23:21

namely, an opera which contains singable parts which the traditional opera singer would like to sing.

Presenter23:30

But for the musical establishment it was too melodic, it was too velcanto or something.

Berthold Goldschmidt23:33

It was two bell cans.

Berthold Goldschmidt23:35

Too melodic. Too melodic.

Presenter23:35

Mm.

Berthold Goldschmidt23:37

And it was disregarded completely. But now, in Berlin, it was the sensation.

Presenter23:43

This year.

Berthold Goldschmidt23:44

This year at the festival was the opening piece, the opening piece of the Berlin Festival.

Berthold Goldschmidt23:50

And you got a little bit of a philharmony.

Presenter23:50

Yeah.

Berthold Goldschmidt23:52

And it's standing ovations. I mean, I'm not telling you fairy tests.

Presenter23:52

This is

Presenter23:57

No, no, fifteen minutes I read. Fifteen minutes.

Berthold Goldschmidt23:59

Fifty minutes, fifty minutes at least.

Presenter24:01

Well, that must have been a terrific feeling.

Berthold Goldschmidt24:03

Oh, that was a terrific feeling. Also.

Berthold Goldschmidt24:05

The justification for the fact that I've stayed my course.

Berthold Goldschmidt24:10

Let's have your next record.

Berthold Goldschmidt24:12

The next record I heard before it was recorded, namely the Serenade for Tenor and Strings by Benjamin Britton, who was one of the British composers who impressed me enormously when I came to this country. And I would like to have the wonderful song, the poem by Tennyson, where it speaks of dying. Generally my selection of records is very optimistic, but at my age, at one point of this programme, one has got to think of death, and that was would be the moment now.

Speaker 424:52

Lend the horse on castle holds, And stories are retold in story.

Speaker 425:03

How long did I shake a f ⁇? Cross the lakes and the lions can come back the heats in glory.

Berthold Goldschmidt25:09

With the wine's pass.

Speaker 425:16

Glow, bugle, blow, set the wild echoes flying. Bugle blow, once the echoes once more.

Speaker 425:33

Die, die, die, die.

Presenter25:46

Part of the Nocturne from Britain's Serenade for Tenor, Horn and String, sung by Peter Pierce with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Benjamin Britton.

Presenter25:55

So you were professionally beaten, really, by by the musical establishment here, and and for twenty five years, I think it was during the s sixties and seventies, you composed not a thing. You you also lost your wife during that period, didn't you?

Berthold Goldschmidt26:03

Yeah.

Berthold Goldschmidt26:07

Yes, yes, yes.

Presenter26:10

She died when.

Berthold Goldschmidt26:12

In seventy nine.

Presenter26:14

So so as you approached your eightieth birthday in nineteen eighty three, you were a widower, you were

Presenter26:20

resigned to being a composer who'd never been recognized, and then suddenly

Presenter26:26

Recognition began to dawn. How did it happen? What was the first big break?

Berthold Goldschmidt26:30

The first big break was Simon Rettel's appearance with the City of Birming Symphony Orchestra in Berlin in eighty seven.

Berthold Goldschmidt26:38

When he was asked at the festival, ran under the flag Emigray Musicians.

Berthold Goldschmidt26:46

if possible, to bring a piece from England by a refugee composer. So so Simon Rettle rang me. Do you happen to have you have a piece uh with which it mustn't be long, it must be a sh a short piece, fifteen minutes at the utmost uh with which to open the programme, because I've been asked.

Berthold Goldschmidt27:05

Zadiessa in the Tracona Symphonica.

Berthold Goldschmidt27:08

Do you have tape? I said, Yes. I'll I'll come over and listen to it And so so within five minutes he came over. He still lived in in London at the time.

Berthold Goldschmidt27:17

And he listened to it and said, This is exactly the piece we know. We are going to open the the programme with that piece.

Berthold Goldschmidt27:23

And it so happened that the Berlin people were very delighted, but they said, Well, this is now a suggestion coming from Birmingham. We have got to do something. So they arranged for the same afternoon a chamber music concert in in which they wanted me to speak on the rostrum, to answer questions and tell about my life, and at the same time perform my second string quartet, which I had written in nineteen thirty-six.

Presenter27:36

And it's

Berthold Goldschmidt27:55

And these two things turned out to be

Berthold Goldschmidt27:58

It kind of breakthrough.

Berthold Goldschmidt28:01

The the Chacona sensation caused such an an applause.

Berthold Goldschmidt28:07

that the they couldn't go on with the program.

Presenter28:11

Record number six.

Berthold Goldschmidt28:14

It's

Berthold Goldschmidt28:15

The greatest master in music, the Bach.

Berthold Goldschmidt28:19

And I would like to have the Goldberg variations, which is deeply philosophical and

Berthold Goldschmidt28:25

Humorous to an in very, very high degree.

Berthold Goldschmidt28:30

And

Berthold Goldschmidt28:31

We are continuing now the optimistic.

Berthold Goldschmidt28:34

side and music, and I would like to hear a variation played by one of the greatest pianists of our time, Anders Schiff.

Presenter29:40

Bach's Goldberg Variation No. 26, played by Andrus Schiff.

Presenter29:44

So these days they they do you proud in Germany. You've travelled in other parts of Europe. You've travelled to the States for a whole Goldschmidt uh concert. Are are you enjoying life? It's so very different.

Berthold Goldschmidt29:56

Yes, of course I'm enjoying that.

Presenter29:58

But what would what would you really like to see happen? I mean, w w would you like, um, for example, to see one of your two operas staged here in London? That's never happened before.

Berthold Goldschmidt30:08

Well, I I wouldn't say no. It's it's going to happen one day, whether I'm still alive or not, I don't know, because usually the planning of opera theatres are three or four years in advance.

Presenter30:19

But if there were one place in the world and one piece of your work that could be performed, what would you like it to be?

Berthold Goldschmidt30:28

Well, the choice is very difficult, you know, between Beatrice Schenschie, which is an English opera composed for the English opera in English.

Berthold Goldschmidt30:37

It would be nice, very nice indeed, to have it performed here.

Berthold Goldschmidt30:41

And the the Kokumanifik exists in an English translation, it could be done.

Berthold Goldschmidt30:47

either at Covent Garden or at the ENO, or for that matter, later on, in Glasgow. I'm not going to recommend anything. It's up to them to to to make their decision.

Presenter30:59

But I take your point. It is a pity that your old enemies aren't around any longer, isn't it?

Berthold Goldschmidt31:03

Yes, well and not because I I would have a kind of sadistic uh joy, but just in order to show them that they could have been wrong in what they said.

Presenter31:17

Number seven.

Berthold Goldschmidt31:20

I have chosen a scerzo from Queen Map, which is the episode from Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, set to music in the most brilliant and incredible way, played here by the Montreal Symphony Orchestra.

Berthold Goldschmidt31:40

under Charles Dutroy.

Berthold Goldschmidt31:43

who is the marvellous conductor who gave a beautiful performance of my violin concerto this summer, just a few weeks ago, in Montpellier. And I think I owe him a lot for that break through into the French musical scene.

Presenter32:53

Part of the scherzo from Romeo and Juliet by Belios, played by the Montreal Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Dutois.

Presenter33:00

It seems to me that you know exactly what it's like to to to be cast away, as it were. W would you have few problems, therefore, on Desert Island? Are you self-contained?

Berthold Goldschmidt33:09

Well, first of all, I would not even dare to escape.

Berthold Goldschmidt33:13

Because I wouldn't know how.

Berthold Goldschmidt33:16

I would probably try to make a living by eating very carefully leaves and whatever fruit there is, tasting small things and ascertaining whether they are poisonous or bitter. And I couldn't kill any any animal. I would collect eggs, of course, very reluctantly, and perhaps turtles' eggs.

Presenter33:35

And your music would sustain you, I'm sure.

Berthold Goldschmidt33:37

Possibly, yes. Depends on what kind of uh

Berthold Goldschmidt33:41

Machinery have to play them.

Presenter33:43

Oh, I think very old fashioned stuff, really.

Berthold Goldschmidt33:45

Well, they're all C D's now. How could it be old fashioned?

Presenter33:48

Yeah.

Berthold Goldschmidt33:50

Yeah, Robert. Maybe you do.

Berthold Goldschmidt33:53

I'm changing.

Presenter33:53

And change the needle too.

Berthold Goldschmidt33:55

Change the needle.

Presenter33:56

Mm-hmm.

Berthold Goldschmidt33:57

Well

Berthold Goldschmidt33:58

There was a possibly limited supply of needles anyhow, and we will have to ruin the records gradually.

Presenter34:03

No, no. Unlimited supply of needles, but winding up by yourself.

Berthold Goldschmidt34:07

Oh dear.

Presenter34:08

So it doesn't sound like a paradise for you at all.

Berthold Goldschmidt34:10

No, no, no, no, oh, definitely not a paradise.

Presenter34:13

Shall we have your last record?

Berthold Goldschmidt34:15

The last recorded is again a schazzo, and a schazzo which is exactly of the same period as Berlioz's schazo. It's a schizo from another Shakespeare play, namely Midsummer Night's Dream. It's Mendelssohn's schazo, which encapsulates the whole of human life, birth, development.

Berthold Goldschmidt34:38

Drama, catastrophe.

Berthold Goldschmidt34:41

Smoothing out.

Berthold Goldschmidt34:43

Fading out and death.

Presenter35:45

The end of the schizo from Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream, played by the Berlin Symphony Orchestra conducted by Vladimir Ashkenazi.

Presenter35:52

Well, if you could only take one of those eight records, which one?

Berthold Goldschmidt35:55

I was torn between all the records. But I think I've got to do the obvious and choose the Goldberg variations by Bach.

Presenter35:58

The rate

Presenter36:08

And what about your book?

Berthold Goldschmidt36:10

The book is Joseph and His Brothers by Thomas Mann. Joseph Onzane Brude. It's a four-volume book which depicts the fate and the story and the success of Joseph, who was first lost in the depths of a well without any hope.

Berthold Goldschmidt36:37

Rescued, landed in a foreign country.

Berthold Goldschmidt36:42

and eventually made the grade.

Berthold Goldschmidt36:44

And turned out.

Berthold Goldschmidt36:46

It will be a great success.

Presenter36:48

And what about your luxury?

Berthold Goldschmidt36:51

A venge case.

Berthold Goldschmidt36:53

Because I hate beards, I want to be able to shave myself. And there must be a pair of scissors in it, and also a metal mirror.

Berthold Goldschmidt37:04

If if you don't grant it, I'll go on beach combing until I find one. I must have a mirror to give signals to a passing ship.

Presenter37:13

Bertold Goldschmidt, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 337:24

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.