Taki

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. Elements of this programme may offend or upset some listeners. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety three, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:32

My castaway this week is a playboy. Fit, good looking, and enormously rich, he has enjoyed a life of almost uninterrupted pleasure. His father was a Greek shipping magnate who built up a fortune. His son determined to make women the greatest motivation, he said, in his life. Apparently incapable of fidelity, he has twice been married. But his easy going existence was disrupted in the mid eighties when he was sent to prison for four months after being found in possession of cocaine at Heathrow Airport. He's also a journalist, writing political columns for American magazines. In this country he's most famous for his high life column in the Spectator, where each week the antics of the international jet set are amusingly observed. He is Tacky Theodorocopoulos.

Presenter1:17

It's a mouthful of a name, Theodore. What does it mean?

Taki1:20

It means, an ironically enough, a gift from God.

Taki1:23

There's some people who dispute that, but anyway.

Presenter1:25

Uh

Presenter1:26

The jet set I mentioned there it sounds such an old fashioned phrase these days. Does it still exist?

Taki1:32

It does, but in a completely different way. The Jet Set sort of became famous because of Fellini, Dolce Vita, the first Jets that people started traveling. Um there was much more substance then to the Jet Set.

Taki1:47

It doesn't have it doesn't have the connotation that it used to have, sort of tough playboys who chase women, race cars.

Presenter1:51

Hmm.

Taki1:55

We're mostly sportsmen.

Presenter1:56

But I think it's not. Wasn't it also true though that that those people then in the in I suppose when are we talking about the fifties, sixties?

Taki2:03

Fifties. Fifties and sixties.

Presenter2:04

Yes. I mean, they all hung out together in the same places south of France in the summer and

Taki2:07

Yes, it is. Then of course you went down to the south of France, Saint-Tropin in July, Cap d'Antib and Monte Carlo in August, and then back to Paris.

Presenter2:21

It was that specific.

Taki2:22

Oh yeah, specific, all right. Yeah, sixth of July, you have to be out of Paris.

Presenter2:23

This is a

Presenter2:25

Yes, but I mean f from Saint Trope to to Cabreto you have

Taki2:27

That's right, you had to, because then the vacancy payer, which means all the all the

Presenter2:31

All the hoi beloi came.

Taki2:32

All the people here would come down and so you'd move up up the coast.

Presenter2:37

Where do you then go in in the summer and in the winter now if these aren't the places

Taki2:41

Well, I certainly don't don't follow that jetset anymore. I'm just now a tired old family man. But I s I got to start in this summer.

Presenter2:48

Hmm.

Taki2:49

Because in the summer nobody goes to you know

Taki2:53

You do exactly the opposite now, and I go a little bit in January in the winter because nobody goes there. The the season is February. So you go in January, Inkstein.

Presenter2:58

Alright, so you got

Taki3:00

You go to Kstad, the month of August. You go to the Greek islands in October and in May when nobody goes, and you try to

Presenter3:08

And what are the toys of the jet set? I mean, if they were

Taki3:11

They've always been the j the the the boats. Um everybody has an enormous yacht. I mean now the trick is to have a small boat.

Presenter3:17

And a plane, please.

Taki3:18

Oh yeah, all of them, if l if not two or three, yeah. Everybody.

Presenter3:22

Well, we're sending you to a desert island which is not for sale. You won't have any money. You'll have very few clothes, only those you wash up in. And your only food will be what you can scavenge. So I suppose it'll be a bit like being in Pentonville jail, really, won't it?

Taki3:37

Yes, I look forward to it. I lost a lot of weight in Panda, but it was good for me.

Presenter3:40

I want to talk to you about that in a minute. What sort of music are you going to play on the island?

Taki3:44

Now I happen to be, despite my reputation as a playboy, I happen to be very musical.

Taki3:48

So it's the hardest choice I've ever had to make, harder than choosing a a wife. But I've chosen mostly you have to have some Mozart and you have to have some thirties music, which was the time which in my mind was the best time in the world to live.

Taki4:05

And um just a couple of things that evoke my youth.

Presenter4:08

Well we'll come to those, but the first one you're gonna play is um

Taki4:12

I would say Al Boli is easy come, easy go.

Taki4:15

which uh in a way it's nostalgic.

Taki4:19

It has a message to the girl, you came easily, and let's break up easily.

Taki4:23

But it's very romantic.

Speaker 34:25

Easy come.

Speaker 34:27

Easy goal.

Speaker 34:30

That's the way, If love must have its day, then as it came

Speaker 34:37

Let it go.

Speaker 34:40

Yeah.

Speaker 34:41

Oh, no remorse.

Speaker 34:44

No regret We should part exactly as we met Just easy come

Presenter4:55

Easy come, easy go. An Al Boley there. It was in uh nineteen eighty four, Tacky, that you ended up in jail for smuggling cocaine into the country.

Taki5:04

Yes, it was.

Presenter5:04

It was apparently your own fault, because I mean, not only had you brought it in to Heathrow, but you kind of pointed out to the customs officials.

Taki5:10

Well what happened is that I went the night before, I was in New York and I went to a nightclub and sort of

Taki5:16

It sounds awful to say this over the air, but I asked this Bartman, Have you got something?

Taki5:21

He said, Take this, all of it, or nothing at all, and put it in my back pocket, and went to take, and it was so awful.

Taki5:28

It was a s scene out of hell. People it looked like being in an asbestos factory. So I just didn't take it, went to bed, took the plane the next day, arrived here.

Taki5:38

And then when I went through the customs, they waved me right through, the man said, You're going to lose.

Taki5:43

that envelope sticking out of your pocket, which was sticking out of our pocket. So

Taki5:47

Being tacky, I turned around and I said, Well, if you only knew what was in it

Taki5:51

And then he crooked his finger and he said, Come back here and I knew my life would change.

Presenter5:56

And so it was that you found yourself in in Jar. That was in the summer, it happened by Christmas you found it.

Taki6:00

Twenty third of July nineteen eighty four and I went in on the fourteenth of December nineteen eighty four.

Presenter6:04

And where did you come out?

Taki6:05

Uh s second of March, nineteen eighty five.

Presenter6:08

Good behaviour. Got you out of here.

Taki6:09

Yeah, that's got me out.

Presenter6:10

But you're in for Christmas. Yes. What was Christmas like in the jail house?

Taki6:11

Yes.

Taki6:13

It's a very sad time to be because the poor the um the salvation army comes in.

Taki6:18

And every single person, except for myself, I think, was screaming.

Taki6:23

to bugger off because they don't want to be reminded that it's Christmas and of course they we yell abuse and those poor people sit and they play.

Speaker 16:24

Yeah.

Speaker 36:24

Uh

Taki6:30

It's it's a sad time, and you do get some extra they gave you some sugar, extra sugar.

Taki6:37

which in fact I bargained off for I wanted paper hankies because you're dying to be clean.

Presenter6:43

Hmm.

Taki6:43

And they wanted sugar, so.

Presenter6:45

You talk about dying to be clean on Boxing Day, I think it was something

Presenter6:49

happened to you which was pretty awful, which was you were moved into a different cell.

Taki6:52

Into a different cell. What happens is when prisoners are mo are about to leave,

Taki6:59

Uh I don't know why this is. They know some other unfortunate men who come in, they just simply cover their cells with

Taki7:05

That word.

Presenter7:06

Uh

Taki7:06

And that four letter word. And of course you have to go and clean it up.

Presenter7:10

It it just I mean you you've you've written about it. Uh you wrote a book about the experience i in jail and uh

Taki7:10

It it just I mean, you you

Presenter7:17

I I think you said that at that point you actually did practically cry, or did you cry?

Taki7:21

I didn't, no. I s I mean almost. I mean, you felt like it, yeah. I bet.

Presenter7:23

Maybe almost. I mean, you felt like it, yeah. I bet.

Taki7:25

I don't cry about things about myself, you cry about uh hearing

Taki7:29

marches and seeing soldiers, things like that.

Presenter7:33

Record number two.

Taki7:35

My first recollection

Taki7:37

Of life itself. I mean, my very first recollection was 28th of October 1940 when the sirens.

Taki7:43

were uh blowing. And my father went off to war. I remember my mother crying and

Taki7:48

marches and marches and marches and everything was great because we beat the hell out of the Italians.

Taki7:53

And then, of course, the Germans came in, there was a terrible defeat, having beaten the Italians, a small country like ours.

Taki8:00

And of course I grew up my first language was German. I have German blood in me.

Taki8:05

And in a way, this is a difficult thing to say, but

Taki8:08

To see a defeated army come back when you are three, four years old, and to see those wonderful German

Taki8:14

uh panzers come in. And of course you loved you know, as a child, four year old, you loved the German, the cleanliness, the discipline. And they of course, when they heard us speak German, because our house was requisitioned,

Taki8:25

When we had Prussian officers, we didn't have a

Taki8:28

You know, so the Nazi

Taki8:30

Gestapo types. And uh of course I fell in love with that with her marches and I remember the soldiers we had officers staying with us and below there were the soldiers. They were singing the German version of Lillie Marlene which is a very sad one, unlike the English one, because the soldier knows he's gonna lose the girl and he will die. It's this extreme German romanticism.

Speaker 39:08

Feel the gallery.

Speaker 39:12

I am sleeping.

Presenter9:21

German soldiers singing Lily Marlane. So this was you, a little boy, in Athens, under German occupation.

Taki9:27

Under German occupation, speaking German, my father was as it turned out he wo he was he got the highest decoration.

Taki9:35

for resistance because he was running a resistance

Taki9:39

A very well organized resistance throughout the war.

Taki9:42

And

Taki9:43

I admired him greatly then, and I admired him throughout my life, and I still do. He died in 1989.

Presenter9:50

But he was very strict.

Taki9:51

Uh ver very strict, you know, he he he was cold like that. I didn't want to show you.

Taki9:55

his but he was a terrific father because he took care of my fam you know, my family and myself.

Presenter10:00

He was cold, either.

Taki10:01

Well, you know, he he had a very rough life. He came from his father was a very rich man, but he kicked him out of the house.

Taki10:08

I mean, it was difficult. He left home when he was fourteen.

Taki10:11

But he educated himself, and he made his own fortune.

Presenter10:14

But you were brought up to be very well behaved, to do as you were told. I mean, it was almost a repressive upbringing.

Taki10:20

It was very because my mother's is is extremely she's still alive. My mother's extremely extremely strict.

Taki10:25

I remember if we were sweating, if we were caught sweating, we would be beaten.

Taki10:30

Uh w how can you stop a five-year-old from sweating or an eight-year-old in Athens, exactly.

Presenter10:34

Or an eight-year-old.

Taki10:36

And we were obviously I think one of the reasons I've never followed the rules since then is because we had such a strict upbringing. You know, there was a war and of course there was a civil war after that. So they had to keep you from the streets and or from the playgrounds. And of course, on top of it, having a mother who who made a German prison commander seem like Mother Teresa, uh w didn't help. So the moment I got out from under them I went uh, you know.

Presenter11:03

You were bound to be a rebel for the rest of your life, eh?

Taki11:05

The rest of your life, huh?

Presenter11:06

But weren't you always terrified of your father?

Taki11:08

I yes, I was. Yes, I was was. And even worse, I hate to admit, uh I was terrified that he would cut me off because he was always very generous.

Taki11:16

Couldn't you?

Presenter11:16

Didn't you once, when you were very small, steal money from his safe?

Taki11:19

Yes, we did. We we finally came got into the safe. He had left by then. He had gone the war was over and he had gone to America and suddenly my brother and I managed to get into after four years of playing with the combination we opened it.

Taki11:33

And it was full of gold coins which my father had kept for a rainy day because there was inflation, you know, there was hyperinflation, there was no there was no money, there was no government, there was nothing.

Taki11:42

So we took some of that money.

Taki11:44

And I got into a cinema. I was playing Kismet. I remember this very yesterday, Ronald Coleman, uh Marlon Dietrich.

Taki11:53

Typically there's a there's an intermission in the middle.

Taki11:56

And the lights went on, and suddenly this man grabbed me. It was my uncle, who saw me

Taki12:00

Of course I was taken back. I was taken my grandfather had just been Prime Minister then. They took us back to a hospital which he was president of.

Taki12:08

And we were made to

Taki12:10

confessed to the Archbishop of Athens. Of course, I lied like hell, I said. I blamed it all on my brother. And I got out and

Presenter12:16

And he got the blame.

Taki12:17

He got the B V.

Presenter12:19

More music.

Taki12:20

Now, the third one now this is the one which, of course, will gives me the greatest pleasure, and I know it by heart.

Taki12:28

This is Leporello, who's probably the greatest man servant in the history of man's servants.

Taki12:33

talking to his master, Don Giovanni, and he tells one of the women

Taki12:37

all the women that uh his master has had, and he tells her, Look, he had a thousand three

Taki12:44

In Spain, Sechen to cast six hundred and forty in France.

Taki12:47

No one tuno in Turkey, and ninety-one in Turkey. It was very difficult to get women in Turkey because that used to, you know, those Muslims are like.

Presenter12:53

Total exaggeration anyway, but I think it's a good idea.

Taki12:55

Well no no no no but Don Johann was a hell of a mess.

Taki12:59

Anyway, I love that it's immortal Aria, and it's great. La Porella is great, Don Giovanni is great. And the first time I saw the opera, it was just after the war, I went completely crazy. He became my hero, Don Giovanni, of course. And I was with an American girl.

Taki13:12

who thought he was awful.

Speaker 313:16

I need a

Speaker 313:18

Catalono puesto, de lepende que el padomillo, o catalo no ge que o catuillo, o servate ulcer compla, o cervate, compla

Speaker 313:47

Uh

Speaker 313:48

Man, thank you.

Speaker 314:00

Yeah.

Presenter14:01

John Tomlinson singing Leparelli's aria from uh Mozart's Don Giovanni with the Berlin Philharmonic and Daniel Barenboim. Leparelli singing about his master's conquests, as you say. Um

Taki14:10

Does your set

Presenter14:12

So you're a philanderer, as you admit. But apparently, according to your rules, it's okay for men, but not for women.

Taki14:17

Certainly not. The reason the reason for this.

Taki14:22

The reason for this is because, as we all know, and we don't have to.

Taki14:27

We don't have to have an Oxford degree. Uh man is polygamous and women are not. Women are fall in love with the man's brains, um, his manner, where men fall in love with the woman's looks. It's not very intelligent.

Presenter14:40

This is written somewhere, isn't it?

Taki14:42

No, it's uh it's uh this is tacky. Well, it's written somewhere, I read it somewhere, but

Presenter14:44

Well, it's

Taki14:46

This is original my original thought. How often do you see a very intelligent man?

Taki14:52

With a dumb woman.

Taki14:54

How seldom do you see a very intelligent woman with a dumb man? Almost never.

Presenter14:57

This is the scientific evidence.

Taki14:59

This is the the the mathematic evidence.

Presenter15:01

It's a very illiberal view for a sophisticated man.

Taki15:04

But it's not illiberal because I don't think many women like to be polygamous. I mean, nobody's putting women down. I'm saying that women f are by far the superior sex, they can give birth.

Taki15:15

They're more intelligent, they can bear better pain.

Presenter15:18

But but what about, you know, in your individual case? I mean, what is the hook? I mean it's a dangerous question this, but I mean w is it the thrill of the chase? Or is it simply sex? What is it?

Taki15:27

So

Taki15:28

No, well sex of course'cause the but the thrill of the chase comes into of course, but the thrill of the chase is like w the when the people who hunt foxes. I mean it's the thrill of the chase, isn't it? Poor fox at the end. I don't hunt and I don't shoot.

Presenter15:31

Brilliant.

Presenter15:39

Or five.

Taki15:42

But

Presenter15:42

But you chase women you must therefore hurt women. I mean just like Don Giovanni, you know.

Taki15:43

But I chase one.

Taki15:47

No, because a woman likes to be told that the man is in love. And if she's intelligent and I I prefer intelligent women to dumb ones

Taki15:56

It's nice to hear a man, and especially it's a Greek way, we're Greeks, we say I love you immediately.

Taki16:02

It's better than saying, let's go, baby. You say, I love you.

Presenter16:04

What about the the misery at the end of it? I mean, you must have had more weeping women on your shoulders.

Taki16:08

No, I don't I think I've wept far more.

Presenter16:10

Okay.

Taki16:11

No, by far.

Presenter16:14

You you dedicated your life apparently to uh to to being, I suppose

Presenter16:18

being a playboy, di if you're dedicating yourself to to to women and to pleasure and to sport. You did this back in the States, I think, when you were at the University of Virginia. I mean, was it a large decision in your life, or did you fall into it?

Taki16:29

No, it it was I fell into it because I was I was a tennis player in the beginning and in those days tennis wasn't

Taki16:35

the business it is now. You could actually play tennis and I did a lot of sports and I competed in many sports for my country, but you could still get drunk at night, chase the art girl or two and then still compete in a certain level. Now you can't do anything like that. I mean in the old days it was fun.

Presenter16:50

And you were a Davis Cup player. Well I wasn't.

Taki16:52

Well, I was a basic player, but we were sort of a bad team. I didn't I wasn't. But uh and that's so I fell into it. But uh actually I've been working for the last almost tw thirty years, quite hard, but

Presenter16:53

Mm-hmm.

Presenter16:54

Oh yeah.

Taki17:04

I play hard too. You can do both.

Presenter17:05

You're still a playboy. You're not afraid of the ball.

Taki17:07

I will I will die, Playboy. I don't want to I don't want to join the great proletariat, but I'm not ashamed of working, nor am I ashamed of playing.

Presenter17:15

I can tell. Record number four.

Taki17:18

Now, that's Artie Shaw. Artie Shaw is a hell of a man. First of all, he was married to Eva Gardner, the most beautiful woman as far as I'm concerned. And he was a great intellectual.

Taki17:26

He married all these women. I think he married poor also Lana Turner or I don't know, he married them all.

Taki17:32

And

Taki17:33

And his idea of fun was to read Wittgenstein and educate these dumbos.

Taki17:39

But he sure had good taste, and his music is the best known.

Presenter18:12

Artie Shaw and his orchestra and Begin the Begin. You were about thirty, Tacky, when you decided to go into journalism. How did it happen?

Taki18:18

Yes.

Taki18:20

Tennis was finished, couldn't play any more, skiing couldn't the knees wouldn't go down anymore, and my first wife had left me. Uh she's had enough. And journalism was just then starting to become a heroic profession because of Vietnam.

Presenter18:36

Yeah.

Taki18:37

You can see all those

Presenter18:37

You went to Vietnam.

Taki18:38

Yes, I did, yeah. I saw those ghastly Americans come back and so pompous and full of themselves, telling them telling them what great heroes they were, so I figured you could pick up some more girls by with a camera and a typewriter.

Presenter18:52

I'm sure there there was something more serious.

Taki18:54

Sure there was. Uh but um the world is so full of serious people talking seriously about the seriousness of life. It's nice to to give it uh to play the buffoon at at times because

Presenter19:05

Precisely. I mean, you are playing the buffoon, aren't you?

Taki19:08

Yeah. You know, um as I said to this journalist the other day, would you really tell a perfect stranger and I'm I don't mean you she came to interview me would you really tell a perfect stranger what you really believe? I wouldn't. I mean I I find it an invasion of privacy. You just you present a sort of a facade.

Speaker 119:24

You f

Taki19:26

And uh as I'm not in politics, um

Taki19:30

I don't feel bad about I pre pretend to be what amuses people.

Presenter19:33

But some well, quite. Some people would think that took guts actually to present yourself as a buffoon or a playboy when when the reality is something different, isn't it?

Taki19:38

Yeah.

Taki19:41

Well, it'd be much worse the other way around if you were a buffoon who would bring them all.

Taki19:45

And you spoke about yourself in a serious way, the way some Playboys do nowadays.

Presenter19:51

All right. Um so Alexander Chancellor, who was editor of The Spectator, came along at some point, what, early seventies?

Taki19:57

In nineteen seventy six.

Presenter19:59

Yeah, and how much time to get

Taki19:59

And I was trying to get I was trying to get all these Greek

Taki20:03

pro colonel articles in after they had fallen, of course, because I was o I opposed them in print while I was although I was for them when they were there, because it's nice always to be in opposition. And then he once, um

Taki20:16

I wrote an amusing piece for him, How You Can Tell an Englishman.

Taki20:19

Abroad, in a nightclub, I said. They never tip. They dance in a very jerky way, especially if they're upper class. The waiters hate them.

Taki20:27

And he liked the piece and he gave me a column, he and Simon Corto, and it was just great. It's worked out, it's been the one great pleasure of my life. Even better than women.

Presenter20:35

So he said,

Presenter20:37

Oh really? My goodness. This is this is a confession.

Taki20:37

Oh, really?

Taki20:39

Yes.

Presenter20:40

But basically he said stop trying to push boring articles about Greek comments on me and write a witch.

Taki20:43

Exactly, that's what he said, yes. And then, of course, Charles Moore continued. Charles was extremely kind and kept me on, despite the

Taki20:51

the demands by many other journalists, especially right wing journalists, to fire me.

Taki20:56

He s said that in Mortal Line, I thought it was great. He said, Well,

Taki20:59

If he was our religious correspondent I'd fire him immediately, but we expect our high life correspondent to be high at times.

Presenter21:07

Record number five.

Taki21:08

Now, this is Ethel Merman singing You the Top. This of course reminds me of the fifties. By this time I've escaped boarding school, I've come down to New York.

Taki21:18

And I know my father has charge accounts in various nightclubs and I'm hitting the nightclubs every night at Morocco. And of course the lyrics are so sophisticated.

Taki21:27

that when you see the ghastly sounds that come out of popular music today.

Taki21:33

You want to obviously be sick, so this would never you know, it just reminds me how wonderful popular music once was.

Speaker 321:40

You're the top You're the Coliseum

Speaker 321:46

You're the top.

Speaker 321:49

You're the Louvre Museum. You're a melody from a symphony by Strauss. You're a Bendel bonnet, a Shakespeare sonnet, you're a Mickey Mouse.

Speaker 322:04

You're the Nile.

Presenter22:07

Yeah.

Speaker 322:07

You're the Tower of Pisa.

Presenter22:10

Ethel Merman and You're the Top.

Presenter22:12

When your your father died, which was, what, four years ago?

Taki22:15

Yes.

Presenter22:16

Uh

Presenter22:17

He left you the black sheep, as it were. Well, the bad boy. Yeah, he was off the general.

Taki22:20

Yeah, he was awfully generous, let's put it that way.

Presenter22:22

He left you the bulk of his fortune, didn't he?

Taki22:24

Well, let's say yes.

Presenter22:27

Were you surprised?

Taki22:28

Very, yeah. But I knew it was coming at the end.

Taki22:31

He had dropped a couple of hints.

Presenter22:33

Why why did he choose you then, not your brother?

Taki22:34

Not your brother.

Taki22:40

I guess he thought that I'd had a bad deal all this time. And I think he'd like the fact that I was I wasn't exactly spoiled.

Taki22:48

So you like that?

Presenter22:49

You sound as if you were very spoiled.

Taki22:50

Well, that's again the public.

Taki22:53

The public persona.

Presenter22:54

You then gave half of it to your brother, did you?

Taki22:57

Well, we came into a we came into understanding.

Presenter23:00

Hmm.

Taki23:00

We're fighting about it now.

Presenter23:01

I was gonna say, you gave you gave it to him and you now you're fighting about it.

Taki23:02

You say you

Taki23:03

Well

Taki23:04

Where are we finding by?

Presenter23:06

Do you wish you'd

Taki23:06

We should moral of the story.

Presenter23:09

Is don't give anything away when it's yours.

Taki23:10

Click the window.

Taki23:11

Yeah.

Taki23:12

I don't know. Anyway.

Presenter23:14

But it obviously distresses you all.

Taki23:16

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts the other way around.

Presenter23:20

You never told your father why you spent two months in a British jail.

Taki23:24

No, I didn't. I lied to him. I had to lie to him. There was no way I could tell an an older gentleman that uh his son was going around sniffing coke. It's just too seedy, too awful. And my wife tells me he believed me. I'm not so sure.

Presenter23:37

What about your own family now then? Your your second wife? Yeah, my second wife. Are you still married? Or did you leave?

Taki23:40

Yeah, my second wife.

Taki23:42

Or did you yes or no? We we're married. I mean we were But you got divorced and well she divorced me but I didn't divorce her so I figure uh I'm not divorced. We we live together and we're very happy together.

Presenter23:54

You live together when you're in

Taki23:55

And when I'm in New York, yeah. She's Austrian.

Presenter23:58

She knows all about you and puts up with it.

Taki24:00

No, no, she she d she turns a blind eye and she doesn't want to know. She certainly doesn't want to know. And and of course I you don't tell her? No, no, of course not.

Presenter24:04

Set

Presenter24:06

You don't tell her.

Taki24:08

But and I try to be discreet as I get older.

Presenter24:12

So we have some more music.

Taki24:13

Yes, and speaking about my wife, she's Austrian. She's an Austrian princess.

Presenter24:17

Your ex-wife.

Taki24:18

Well

Taki24:19

Why must we go into these specifics? It's just interesting. I mean, uh no, the Rodetsky march just reminds me exactly when warfare was as romantic as dancing and touching the girl instead of jumping up and down like a knave.

Presenter24:22

But it's specific.

Taki24:35

It's wonderful and you can see the uniforms, brilliant uniforms. People wouldn't shoot prisoners. Women were ladies. Officers would salute each other.

Presenter25:45

Strauss's Radetzky March, played by the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Carrion.

Presenter25:50

Um you said, talking about prison again, Tacky, that that there were two moods that prevailed there, and there were two competing moods, hostility and apathy. Was that generally true for everybody?

Taki26:01

Generally true, for that. There was just total apathy or the blacks were mostly hostile because they blamed it politically. The whites, funny enough, were mostly apathetic.

Taki26:13

And uh once when I was working

Taki26:16

in the shop sewing buttons for the army. They said to me, Uh go slow So I was going slow, I didn't mind going slow. Then the man came over and said to me, You're slagging and I said, Well, I can't do any better.

Taki26:27

And he said, Well, you're going to go to the punishment cell if you don't work any harder. So I said to him, Well, could Oscar Wilde do any better?

Taki26:33

Because I'm pretending to be a writer. He said, if you think I know who's coming in and out of this prison, you've got another thing coming.

Presenter26:42

But I mean the idea really from reading your book that anyone in Pentonville, certainly when you were in there, you know, which was what nine years ago. Conditions of changes.

Taki26:49

Bye.

Taki26:51

Nine years ago. Conditions have changed to tell me since.

Presenter26:54

Yes, but the the idea then, and it's still being said now, that the idea that anyone can learn the error of their ways or become rehabilitated

Taki27:00

Absolutely not. I didn't find it I hate to say this, but I didn't find a single person who p who was actually admitted to be guilty there. They all said I was fitted up or it's a system. It was quite uh depressing in a way.

Presenter27:12

Did you ever see or hear of any of um the people that you met in Fax?

Taki27:16

I was quite popular with the prisoners because I kept to myself and I helped them. A lot of them were illiterate.

Taki27:22

and I sort of acted like a lawyer. I never run into a single one of them.

Taki27:27

And I was hoping to.

Presenter27:28

Well, they don't go to Gestad very often.

Taki27:30

Uh for some strange reason that perhaps that's it. Nor are the members of Adabells.

Presenter27:34

Uh

Taki27:35

Uh

Presenter27:35

What what about the other way on? Did any of your friends drop you because you went to prison?

Taki27:40

I hate to say this, but not a single one did. I was hoping somebody would. So you could you could see say they were fair weather friends. No, especially the you know how the English are. They knock you when you're on top, but when you're on the when you fall down, they're they're all very, very extrem uh, I was I wasn't surprised, I knew it, in fact. No, nobody did.

Presenter27:57

Nobody. But you you wrote once that, um

Presenter28:00

Your friends Charles Moore and Oliver Gilmore came to visit you, both of them old Etonians, sitting there in the visiting room, and that you were very embarrassed. Now, I mean,

Taki28:04

In fact,

Taki28:05

Yeah.

Taki28:10

Well, I was embarrassed because Charles, of course, was my editor and he's a gentleman of the old school. He's wonderful. And there's there's not enough words I can say in praise of Charles.

Taki28:19

And of course Oliver Gilm was probably my closest friend.

Taki28:22

in England and he's a very, very talented conductor. He conducts in Bulgarian Symphony Orchestra. And of course when they came in it was very embarrassing because I o I'd always seen them from a position of strength, you know, well dressed, uh drunk in a nightclub with the girl to come in and they were both they were very nice, they didn't show anything, but I was very embarrassed, sitting there dressed in the prison uniform.

Presenter28:42

So you you were embarrassed for them, not by them?

Taki28:45

No, no, I wasn't embarrassed for them. I was embarrassed for myself, yeah, especially as I knew the search I would have to go through afterwards, as as if Charles or Oliver would pass me something that was illegal.

Presenter28:56

Number seven.

Taki28:57

All right, this is Louis Armstrong. Apparently the first eighteen bars are, according to Professor Gulandris, my jazz guru, are the best it's the best trumpet that's ever been played by any anyone playing any instrument. We'll see if you agree.

Presenter30:11

West End Blues and Louis Armstrong.

Presenter30:13

Um a desert island then, Tacky, is is a doddle for you'cause you know you're a survivor.

Taki30:18

Well, Desert Island would be tougher, because prisoner th in prison they fed you. Mind you, I'd rather eat coconuts. But

Presenter30:27

Yeah.

Taki30:27

The food was

Presenter30:29

It was awful, wasn't it?

Taki30:29

Well, it wasn't it got better because this black friend of mine, Warren, told me to go vegetarian. He said, You must go vegetarian, and the food improved enormously.

Presenter30:38

You you've also said that you are, and I quote, a much stronger and happier man to day, and, alas Pentonville had something to do with it.

Taki30:46

Yes, of course it did. First of all, it proved that when you play a tough guy, you always have tremendous doubts if you're a tough guy. And of course, that helped. I didn't win, but I didn't lose. I had a couple of run-ins there. And of course, I was happy because I got it over. I got it out of my system, all that playing dangerously, trying to get caught. I think this was all subconscious.

Taki31:08

And I decided to really relax and have a good time.

Speaker 331:13

Yeah.

Taki31:18

who is always trying to jump into bed with everybody in the marriage of Figaro, and he's in love with the Countess. In the meantime the Count is always fooling around trying to jump in bed with everybody.

Taki31:28

and he wants to send Kirubino off to war. He sends him off to war in another area, because now Kirubino is always sung by a woman, and in this case Frederike von Stade is she's got those wonderful hooded eyes. She's an American with a beautiful German name.

Taki31:43

And married to a Greek, unfortunately. And she sings this aria and of course it's one of the most erotic things you've ever seen because you see a beautiful woman singing to another beautiful woman. And as somebody once said, you never go broke underestimating the male desire to see two women making love. So you forget that it's Kerubino. And you see all that. And it's a wonderful aria. All my fantasies, all my things all go into it. And it's written by Mozart.

Speaker 332:19

Hail your glory, we live in all.

Speaker 332:40

Finding the whole

Presenter33:10

Frederica von Stader singing an aria from the first act of Mozart's Marriage of Figaro with the London Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Sir George Schulte. If you could only take one of those eight records, Taggy.

Taki33:20

It's very tough that, but I have to go with Lily Marlane, sung by German soldiers. Sorry for your English audience, British audience, but I just have to. It just moves me enough to get me off the island.

Presenter33:30

Okay.

Presenter33:32

What about your book?

Taki33:34

Ah, again, I'll have to go with Papa Hemingway, the essential Hemingway. It's got um the sun also rises in it, it's got fifty grand.

Taki33:43

boxing, bullfighting.

Taki33:45

Uh men chasing women, fighting nature.

Presenter33:48

And your luxury.

Taki33:50

Yeah, I'll take something which I always carry with me anyway. I have a boxing bag which I've had for twenty-five years and everywhere I go I hang it with me. I didn't bring it here in the studio because I used it this morning.

Speaker 133:57

Use the th

Taki33:59

And I'll hang it from a coconut tree and I'll just hit my bag and

Taki34:03

and get my son to have a swim and eat my coconuts and it'll it'll remind me of home and and so I'll stick with my old boxing bag.

Presenter34:11

Tacky Theodorocopoulos, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Taki34:15

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 134:24

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.