Sir Leon Brittan

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety three and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My castaway this week is a politician. He enjoyed a glittering career, an exhibition to Cambridge at the age of sixteen, a double first, called to the bar, became an MP, and at forty one the youngest member of the Cabinet, who went on to become Home Secretary and Secretary of State for Trade and Industry.

Presenter0:46

In nineteen eighty six, however, the glitter faded. He resigned over the Westland affair, and was left to languish on the back benches. Three years later he became one of Britain's European Commissioners, and has been in Brussels ever since.

Presenter0:59

Next year his term of office comes to an end. What will happen then to the man of whom one political commentator has said he is no extinct volcano. He is one of the least arrogant of politicians, but has never learned to appear that way on the public stage. He is Sir Leon Britton. You laugh, Sir Leon. Do is there some truth in that? I mean, we'll leave the extinct volcano till later, but is d do you think that you have?

Presenter1:22

Given the wrong impression of yourself publicly

Sir Leon Brittan1:25

Well, that's what people say, and it's always very difficult to know what impression you do give. I just amused at the idea of not being arrogant, but seeming arrogant. It's usually the other way round that people try.

Presenter1:35

Well it is, but people constantly say of you and and write of you as you acknowledge that that you are nicer than your image. That must be well it's a bit of a backhander really.

Sir Leon Brittan1:43

It is, yes. And uh people say that I look better at the flesh than on the television, but what could you do about it?

Presenter1:49

But has it worried you? Do you worry about image or perhaps less so now?

Sir Leon Brittan1:52

What's this?

Sir Leon Brittan1:53

Not as much as uh as as all that, perhaps less than I should, but uh um I I can't see what you can do about it. All all ideas are welcome. Write them on a postcard to Brussels.

Presenter2:03

Does it, though, matter less now, now that you're in Europe, now that you're really rather more independent and not at the mercy of the press baying for your resignation or whatever?

Sir Leon Brittan2:14

I suppose it matters less in the sort of day to day terms, but not in the longer term, because the job that I'm doing at the moment is one where there's a high profile in Britain and and all over the continent. So um and it's not just a question of the policies. People are affected all over the continent and beyond by what sort of person you are. So if you give the impression of being an arrogant sod, that can't help in doing the job, even though it may not mean that some backbencher instantly the next day says you should resign. So it does matter, but in a slightly different time scale.

Presenter2:46

But sparing your blushes, hasn't it got something to do with being clever, which you plainly are, as I've just said in the introduction, that when you have a what one might call a searchlight brain, people will always pounce on you as being intellectually arrogant or condemn you as a bit of a cold fish.

Sir Leon Brittan3:03

There is that risk, and I think that uh that is greater in in in Britain than on the continent. The tradition of having to conceal the faintest glimmer of intelligence is much stronger in the British Isles. Why do you think that is? I don't know why. I mean, in some ways it's rather attractive. People like you to be sort of self-effacing and uh throw away lines all the time and so on, and and the understatement, and and that is attractive, and it's an asset for for Britain that British people are like that so much. But on the other hand

Presenter3:14

Why do you think that is?

Sir Leon Brittan3:33

I I think it can be overdone, and and and the famous remark of Lord Salisbury about Iain MacLeod that he was too clever by half. I think it can be damaging for the country if people seriously think that uh uh intellectual ability is something that people have to conceal and to be ashamed of.

Presenter3:51

Let's um get you off to this desert island then. Um can you give me first of all a a general description of the sort of music that you want to take with you?

Sir Leon Brittan3:58

Well, I think it would be music that reminds me of particular things, and music that I like. Nothing too gloomy, on the whole rather stirring, perhaps rather romantic. That would be the sort of product mix.

Presenter4:12

So what's the first one?

Sir Leon Brittan4:14

Well, the first one is Bach Karte and Fug in D minor.

Sir Leon Brittan4:19

And that is simply good, strong stuff very, very beautiful indeed, but giving me courage to try and escape, or something like that, and I'd certainly need a lot of courage to attempt that.

Presenter5:30

Peter Hereford playing part of Bach's Dakarta and Fugue in D minor. Just stirring stuff, isn't it?

Sir Leon Brittan5:35

It is, yes. It lives up to the billing, I think.

Presenter5:36

Yeah.

Presenter5:39

Brussels has patently been a very happy landing place for you, and you've been there for four and a half years now. But you weren't entirely sure about going there in the first place, were you, when Mrs. Thatcher offered it? You hesitated.

Sir Leon Brittan5:49

I wasn't at all. Perhaps it's because I'm a conservative with a small C as well as with a large C. But I was persuaded massively by friends and colleagues and everything and

Presenter6:00

Was that because they believed that perhaps something wouldn't happen that you were hoping would happen, which is that misses Thatcher would honour her promise and have you back in the cabinet?

Sir Leon Brittan6:08

Well, it depends who I was speaking to. I think there was much more a feeling that if you looked at my sort of paper qualifications, I seemed sort of well suited for the job. But I had to weigh all that up, and in the end, I decided to go, and I certainly have not regretted it, because I think it's been an extremely exciting time to be there, and tremendous opportunities.

Presenter6:29

But you must have asked yourself why she didn't honour that promise. I mean, you did sit on the back benches waiting for the recall, didn't you?

Sir Leon Brittan6:35

Well, it was doing other things as well. I'm not a great one for pining. Yeah, but you'd.

Presenter6:40

No, but you'd been led to expect it. She'd written in in her letter to you, hadn't she, that I hope that it will not be long before you return to high office to continue your ministerial career.

Sir Leon Brittan6:49

Well, it's anybody's guess what what not long means. Uh I think that uh she probably was reluctant to stir up all the controversies uh arising from Westland. I think it was that more than anything else that made her feel that uh uh she had to try and find the equivalent rather than the literal letters of that

Presenter7:08

But did you feel betrayed?

Sir Leon Brittan7:10

Didn't feel betrayed, no. I mean, that's too grand, and uh I didn't feel betrayed.

Presenter7:15

Do you think she felt guilty about you?

Sir Leon Brittan7:17

I think she felt uncomfortable.

Presenter7:20

She didn't invite you round much after you resigned, did she?

Sir Leon Brittan7:22

I wasn't expecting that. There's no reason why she should. She was quite busy running the country. So I you know, she sh she she it was an uncomfortable episode for her to be brought back to remember.

Presenter7:34

Hm. Some people said that your friends would say that sh she didn't like to see your face because it reminded her of the guilt that she felt.

Sir Leon Brittan7:42

Well, that's sort of psychoanalysis which I wouldn't want to go into.

Presenter7:45

Anyway, Brussels turned out to be, in your wife's words, a a silver lining. And you live there by all accounts in in some style. Oh, no.

Sir Leon Brittan7:53

I wouldn't say very grand style. It's not I've not got an ambassadorial residence or all that, but uh um I'm quite comfortable there, yes.

Presenter8:02

I understand you drive around in a British motor car, but rather a special British motor car.

Sir Leon Brittan8:06

Well, it's a jagger, yes. Yes, it is.

Presenter8:07

Yes, and it is it's it's got sort of walnut trimmings and air conditioning and

Sir Leon Brittan8:11

Well it's got all the things that a a jaguar has.

Presenter8:14

But is it the envy of the other Europeans? That's what we need to know.

Sir Leon Brittan8:17

Well, I think people it's eye-catching. People look at it. Uh and I now got a a colleague who is copying me. At least he's decided to also get a jaguar.

Presenter8:27

Where does he come from? Portugal.

Sir Leon Brittan8:29

And so the satellite is, okay.

Presenter8:29

And so does

Presenter8:31

And what about food? Has have your tastes changed? Brussels is, after all, one of the great food capitals.

Sir Leon Brittan8:36

It certainly is. No, my tastes have uh not changed in any way, but I suppose I suppose uh only in the sense that uh I perhaps notice a little bit more if the food is bad, which it isn't often in Brussels. Let's have record number two. Well, the second record goes back to boyhood, and I've always been interested in cricket. And uh I remember as a boy it was frightfully gloomy. England never seemed to win, and particularly not against the Australians. And then in 1953, finally, England won back the ashes from the Australians after, for the first time since 1938, I'd been to one of the matches at Lourdes on a Friday night, and I remember seeing Hutton and Gravene bat. I wasn't there for the denouement, but I love hearing it because it was such an exciting moment.

Speaker 39:30

For rights reasons, we are unable to bring you this choice.

Presenter9:34

England winning back the ashes from the Australians at the Oval in 1953, and the commentator was Bernard Kerr. It's really exciting.

Sir Leon Brittan9:40

Well, it still brings a tingle up my spine and forty years on, and let's hope it'll inspire the England team, who if any of them do listen to it, to to try and do something like that this year.

Presenter9:50

Absolutely.

Presenter9:51

Now, you were born just after war had broken out in Crickleboard in North London.

Sir Leon Brittan9:56

I was born actually in the city, but my parents were living in North London, yeah.

Presenter9:59

And your father was a doctor?

Sir Leon Brittan10:00

That's right.

Presenter10:01

A g p.

Sir Leon Brittan10:02

A general practitioner.

Presenter10:03

Was there people?

Sir Leon Brittan10:04

Surgery he had two surgeries. One was at home, absolutely sort of mixed up in the house, and the other was a couple of miles down the road, where he just had a uh just the surgery.

Presenter10:13

And was it quite, despite the privations of war, was it quite a comfortable child?

Sir Leon Brittan10:18

Oh, I didn't feel anything other than comfortable, but it certainly wasn't luxurious at all absolutely not.

Presenter10:24

What about music, books, theatre? Was there?

Sir Leon Brittan10:27

Um not tremendous amount of uh music, really. Books, yes. Uh theatre, yes, I I went to theatre. The old Vic did the whole of Shakespeare's plays over um five years as I was growing up, and we had friends who took me to that, and that was very exciting. Went to the whole lot of them.

Presenter10:46

Your paternal grandparents were Lithuanian Jews.

Sir Leon Brittan10:50

It's correct.

Presenter10:50

Um when had they first come to this country?

Sir Leon Brittan10:50

PAP

Sir Leon Brittan10:52

Uh my parents came in nineteen twenty seven.

Presenter10:55

And it was you and and your brother Sam

Sir Leon Brittan10:56

My brother, yes.

Presenter10:57

Now Assistant Editor of the Financial Times.

Sir Leon Brittan10:59

Absolutely.

Presenter11:00

um said to be as clever, if not even cleverer than you. Where do all these brains come from?

Sir Leon Brittan11:04

Yeah.

Sir Leon Brittan11:07

Well, I don't know where all these brains come from. But my father was a doctor and my mother had studied law, but didn't finish it and got married instead.

Presenter11:15

And you went to the local school in in Wilston and then won a scholarship to Haberdash's Asks and then this exhibition to Trinity, Cambridge, aged sixteen. That's very precocious stuff.

Sir Leon Brittan11:23

Which age sixty

Sir Leon Brittan11:26

Awful. It sounds terrible hearing about it all these years later.

Presenter11:29

But did your parents expect it of you? Or do no

Sir Leon Brittan11:31

No, no, no. They weren't pressing. I mean, they were, you know, wanted to encourage, but they didn't there wasn't a sort of hothouse atmosphere and good Lord, you haven't done well enough in your own levels. No, none nothing like that. I mean, you know, they were at naturally. But were you shocked when at sixteen?

Presenter11:32

Yeah.

Presenter11:47

Twenty

Presenter11:48

You sat this this uh exam.

Sir Leon Brittan11:49

Well, it was meant to be a dummy run, you see. I was supposed to be doing it the following year, and they said, Have a go this year, it's good practice, and so I ended up with an exhibition, and uh that was fine.

Presenter11:59

So up to Cambridge to join what's become known really as the Cambridge Mafia. It is extraordinary, isn't it?

Sir Leon Brittan12:03

Yeah.

Sir Leon Brittan12:05

I think it's unprecedented that so many people who were active in politics at the same time at Cambridge and weren't just at Cambridge, but were active in politics and then stayed friends and

Sir Leon Brittan12:18

Musical chairs in the cabinet, Red A. Um

Presenter12:20

And club me name the Kenneth Clark.

Sir Leon Brittan12:23

Kelly Clarke, Michael Howard, Norman LeMont was a touch later, Norman Fowler, John Gummer, Christopher Tuched was another person who was there, and there were lots of others, Peter Temple Morris, Peter Lloyd. I mean, you know, it was astonishing.

Presenter12:37

Hmm.

Presenter12:38

Next record.

Sir Leon Brittan12:39

The next record has got a sort of political flavour. It is when I was a lad from HMS Pinafore, and I've chosen it because I think it's a wonderful political satire. It's got a catchy tune and it's an affectionate satire. There's a satire on the pomposity and the ambition of the chap who is now the head of the Queen's Navy. It's it's it's it's nicely punctures the balloon without sort of uh destroying legitimate ambition, totally.

Speaker 313:13

When I was a lad I served a term as office boy to an attorney's firm. I cleaned the windows and I swept the floor and I polished up the handle of the big front door.

Speaker 313:39

I made such a mark that they gave me the post of a junior clerk. I served the writs with a smile so bland, And I copied all the letters in a big round hand

Speaker 313:56

Corporate Bullets and the Benso Free Let's go into

Speaker 314:03

In serving writs I made such a name That an article clerk I soon became. I wore clean collars and a brand new suit For the pass examination at the institute.

Sir Leon Brittan14:14

I should add there's also a personal connection, because for my fiftieth birthday, Simon Jenkins wrote a brilliant parody of this, b ending up with a theme line, Now I am the ruler of the EEC

Presenter14:29

It's a bit of you and your humble beginnings and so on.

Sir Leon Brittan14:31

Absolutely. Yeah.

Presenter14:33

That was the Doilycart Opera Company when I was a lad from Gilbert and Sullivan's, HMS Pinafore.

Presenter14:38

So you got a double first in English and law. Yes. Um you were called to the bar a few years later where you specialized in libel. Yes. At what point had you formed your political ambition? And I suppose the question is why wasn't becoming a top flight Q C going to be enough for you?

Speaker 314:40

Yeah.

Sir Leon Brittan14:54

Well, um, I uh was interested in politics when I was at Cambridge. You heard we were all involved together in it, and I all and so from the word go I thought um I would like to do politics.

Presenter15:05

It all fell your way, really, once you got into the House in'74, didn't it? The Tories came to power in'79, and you already knew Geoffrey Howe and Willie Whitelaw had become a fan, and you'd found favour with Mrs. Thatcher, so you were soon in the Cabinet as as Chief Secretary. Did you feel

Presenter15:21

Blessed, if you like. Or did or did you feel that this was just a proper reward for all your effort and determination?

Sir Leon Brittan15:27

Well I certainly didn't feel it was a proper reward. I mean one thing that's quite clear about politics, there's no entitlement to anything and luck plays a large part. The only thing I will say is that every time I was asked to do anything, I wasn't expecting it and it wasn't what I was expecting if I had been expecting it. So it it's that gone on?

Presenter15:43

Has that gone on being true?

Sir Leon Brittan15:44

Yes, it is true. Every I've had four jobs in government and now this job in the community, and not one of them was what I was expecting at the time.

Presenter15:53

You were also blessed, if blessed you were, in your politics, you were also blessed in another way at at the time you entered the Cabinet, weren't you? Because you'd fallen in love.

Sir Leon Brittan16:01

Yes, that's absolutely right, indeed. And and not ended fall in love, but got married and went on honeymoon and returned and on the day of our wedding reception heard that I was joined the Cabinet, having been in the Home Office joining the Cabinet as Chief Secretary, so that was a rather dramatic, romantic day.

Presenter16:23

Did it take you by surprise, though, falling in love suddenly at the age of forty?

Sir Leon Brittan16:26

Oh no, I'd rather that uh Falling in Love was quite a bit earlier than that actually. The culmination of it was then.

Presenter16:33

But it took you a long time to persuade her to marry. I it was a wonderful phrase I came across that someone said it was a courtship on your part, a courtship of heroic duration.

Sir Leon Brittan16:41

Well, I'm sure there have been longer ones in history than that. But it took a little while to get it all sorted out.

Presenter16:48

You succeeded in the end. Shall we have your next record? Because it's quite a special one.

Sir Leon Brittan16:51

Yes. Well, I thought on this desert island, as I gather I'm not allowed to take my wife, which is a great shame, at least I would have her on one of your great records. So I took quite a while persuading her she was very shy of doing it, and demure about it, to see if she'd agree to record something for me to have of her reading a Shakspere sonnet, Let Me Not to the Marriage of True Minds, admit impediment and that's what I have as my fourth record.

Presenter17:23

And why did you choose that particular sonnet?

Sir Leon Brittan17:25

because it's a a very beautiful sonnet and I hope that it is apt for her to read, for me to listen to.

Speaker 117:37

Let me not to the marriage of true minds Admit impediments. Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, Or bends with the remover to remove.

Speaker 117:46

Oh no, it is an ever fixed mark.

Speaker 117:49

that looks on tempests and is never shaken.

Speaker 117:52

It is the star to every wandering bark.

Speaker 117:54

Whose worths are known, although his height be taken.

Speaker 117:58

Love's not time's fool.

Speaker 118:00

Though rosy lips and cheeks Within his bending sickle's compass come.

Speaker 118:05

Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, But bears it out even to the edge of doom.

Speaker 118:12

If this be error, and upon me prov'd, I never writ, nor no man ever lov'd.

Speaker 118:20

Yeah.

Presenter18:20

Lady Britton, reading Shakspere's Sonnet No. Hundred and Sixteen.

Presenter18:23

You took on two stepdaughters as well when you married, and they were in their early teens, I think, at the time.

Sir Leon Brittan18:25

Yeah.

Sir Leon Brittan18:27

Yeah.

Presenter18:28

Um that can't have been easy.

Sir Leon Brittan18:30

Uh n it had its problems, but that sort of worked out as well.

Presenter18:34

Well worked out. But u undoubtedly when your career began to go wrong a few years later, having such a family must have been very sustaining.

Sir Leon Brittan18:42

It was. Oh, it was crucial.

Presenter18:45

Your wife has said that she she cried for three days when you resigned, out of sheer grief.

Sir Leon Brittan18:50

Yes, she was very distressed, and obviously much more so than I was.

Presenter18:55

More than you.

Sir Leon Brittan18:56

Oh yes. Much cool.

Presenter18:58

Well you just accepted it as a one of these things.

Sir Leon Brittan18:59

Well I'm not saying that I thought, you know, it's like sort of going to a football match today, resign the next day. No, not not that. But when there's a great pressure and it's sort of resolved, there is a feeling of relief as well as sad as sad

Presenter19:14

So

Presenter19:15

B but before all that, obviously, w we haven't talked about when you were Home Secretary, which was eighty three to eighty five, which

Presenter19:21

There were many controversies during that time, as there always are great problems at the Home Office. But can we talk about the controversy over Real Lives, the BBC television programme, which included a member of the Provisional Sinn Féin advocating violence? Now, you as Home Secretary went public in your demand for those remarks to be cut from the programme.

Sir Leon Brittan19:45

Well, it wasn't a demand, nor, if I may say so, was it the most important episode in my career as Home Secretary, as compared with handling problems of law and order more generally and handling things like the the Brighton bombing and the Libyan siege. These are things that I really stick in my mind. But I just felt that I was entitled to express the view as somebody responsible for the handling of terrorism that people who actually advocate murder should not be given a platform to do so. But it was up to the BBC, as I made quite clear, to decide whether or not to accept that advice. I wasn't seeking to exert any coercion, but I think I was fully entitled to express the view that that was something that should not happen. And of course, since then, as you know, what I said and did paled into insignificance with compared with what my successors have said and done about that subject.

Speaker 120:06

I took

Presenter20:45

Indeed, I I seek to highlight it only because it was what people cited as quite a good example of your being intensely loyal to Mrs Thatcher and indeed seeking to carry out her every wish and perhaps even anticipate her wishes.

Sir Leon Brittan20:59

Well, that's absolute nonsense if you I mean, uh not nonsense on your part because you're only quoting what others have said. I I was wholly reflecting my own personal views as far as that was concerned.

Presenter21:10

So given that time over again, you wouldn't have handled it in the middle.

Sir Leon Brittan21:13

Absolutely not in any way.

Presenter21:16

Record number five.

Sir Leon Brittan21:17

Record number five dates back, if I can put it that way, to my days as Member of Parliament for Cleveland and Whitby. I was member for Cleveland and Whitby and then afterwards Richmond. Whitby is a very romantic spot and it is of course on the sea. And I can never forget those Remembrance Day services in the church which was below the ruins of the Abbey. And of course one of the dominant themes was those who go to sea and in some cases lose their lives, because more people on the war memorials there lost their lives in the merchant navy than in any of the armed forces. So eternal father strong to save with that remembrance of the Whitby and the Cliff and the Abbey and the swirling mist.

Speaker 322:24

Who is almighty host shall be his home?

Presenter23:02

That was the Royal Naval College Chapel Choir singing Eternal Father, Strong to Save.

Presenter23:07

Two years at the Home Office, Leon Britton, and then you were

Presenter23:11

demoted to trade and industry, you put a brave face on it at the time, but it must have been a bit of a blow.

Sir Leon Brittan23:16

Well, I wasn't seeking to leave the Home Office. I think there was more to be done. There is this sort of traditional pecking order, which I think is not a nonsense. I never forget going to immediately after moving to the Department of Trade and Industry to a reception, farewell reception, for Prince Hero of Japan, who was leaving the country, having been an undergraduate at Oxford, and surrounded by Japanese journalists who said to me, Congratulations on your promotion, because for them trade and industry was the most important thing of all. Now, I knew it wasn't perceived that way in this country. Perhaps we'd be a bit better off if it were.

Presenter23:55

Then came the Westland affair. Michael Heseltine resigned in fury and then after leaked letters and allegations that you'd misled the House, you had to go too. Were you again in doing so I mean you you were protecting the Prime Minister from further embarrassment and further controversy, weren't you, Dean?

Sir Leon Brittan24:12

Well, I think clearly the fuss and the hoo-ha were such that I didn't really have much alternative, and so I resigned and I.

Presenter24:20

But again, it was a loyalty to to to Mrs. Thatcher.

Sir Leon Brittan24:20

Mr. Guinea, wasn't it?

Sir Leon Brittan24:23

Well, I mean, I'm not not getting po faced about it. It wasn't just loyalty to misses Thatcher. It was uh an untenable position had arisen in which uh clearly Michael Hesdine and I both had to leave in or for the air to be cleared and that's what happened.

Presenter24:38

Do you do you think um I mean, have you looked on recent um

Presenter24:42

uh domestic politics here and thought to yourself that people should have been more willing to resign and

Sir Leon Brittan24:48

Well, the issue of when you resign and when you don't resign is one that you can't resolve on a sort of having a rule book saying that this is what people ought to do and they ought to sort of wait three days and not ten and or three months and it each circumsta each occasion is different. But I think that

Presenter25:05

But the clearing of the air point remains.

Sir Leon Brittan25:06

Well, I think what I certainly have uh learnt and felt is that resignation is not the end of the world and that uh sometimes uh not only is the government better off if you do it, but you're better off yourself. And uh

Presenter25:19

Is that what you might say to Norman Lamont Carr?

Sir Leon Brittan25:21

Well, I think I wouldn't re relate it to any particular individual, but I think that my experience can perhaps provide some consoling thoughts to others. I'd certainly say that it's not the end of the world, and I think that there are plenty of good examples apart from my own, which show that that is the case. I think you've got to not only play it long, but also have interests in life outside politics. Begin to learn.

Presenter25:46

The hinterland.

Sir Leon Brittan25:47

I think if you have a hinterland you are stronger, stronger to do what you really want to do, as well as uh better able to cope if things go badly, as they always do in politics.

Sir Leon Brittan25:57

At some point. The only question is when and for how long.

Presenter26:01

Record number six.

Sir Leon Brittan26:03

The sixth record is uh from Don Carlos. Opera is my real love when it comes to music, and Don Carlos is my favourite opera. I don't know whether it is because it's got a political theme or because of the music, but uh I think this is a rather unusual duet, sort of friendship duet, uh and it's uh wonderful music.

Speaker 326:26

Oh yeah, I'm not sure.

Speaker 326:31

Ready?

Speaker 326:32

Yeah.

Speaker 326:35

Hail and Taylor.

Speaker 326:51

We are kind of fine for

Speaker 326:54

Oh then the whole

Speaker 327:09

To the

Speaker 327:13

Crazy or

Speaker 327:21

Yeah.

Presenter27:26

Carlo Bergonzi and Dietrich Fischer Discar singing the duet Dioque nel Alma in Fondere from the Verdes Don Carlos with the orchestra of the Royal Opera House Coven Garden conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Sir Leon Brittan27:37

Terrific, isn't it? And of course it's it's not just the friendship theme and magnificent music, it's also the political theme of liberty, and liberty for Flanders in those days. So what could be more appropriate for somebody currently based in Brussels?

Presenter27:49

Tell me about you in Europe. People said that you went native, so to speak, politically very quickly. I mean, not just in lifestyle, which we've touched on, but in your beliefs, that you lost any reservations you might have had and have gone on to advocate a common European foreign policy and security policy.

Sir Leon Brittan28:05

Well that's uh the British Government has uh favoured that and put it in the Maastricht Treaty. Curiously enough, the going native accusation isn't one that's been made all that much. But I've n I've never been uh a Federalist, uh somebody who has a goal and a vision uh which you w work towards. Uh I've always regarded as a pragmatic question, but equally I've always believed in Britain's membership of the community and very simply the view that if you are a a member of the community you've got to make it work.

Presenter28:36

But as you know, the the the Eurosceptics' arguments uh here at home are are equally strong. I mean, what can you say to to reassure the man in the street here, really, who

Presenter28:47

Well, perhaps feels always that there's some kind of hidden agenda in Europe, that he's going to lose more than he's going to

Sir Leon Brittan28:53

There isn't a hidden agenda, and the best reassurance that the man in the street can have is, and this I can give from my four and a half years' experience, is that if you talk to people in France or in other parts of the community, Denmark, wherever, they're just as keen to continue French traditions, Danish traditions, German traditions, as we are to continue British traditions and the British way of doing things. The idea is to do together things that we can do better together. And on the world stage, I see in the trade talks that I'm involved in, where would any one country in Europe, however strong it is, be on its own? Nowhere. It's only by uniting together that we're able to achieve things for us all.

Presenter29:35

Those are arguments which of course you could put from from an even loftier position of strength were you to step into Jacques Delors's shoes.

Sir Leon Brittan29:43

Well, yes, I suppose.

Presenter29:44

Is that what you want? Do you want to be President of the Commission?

Sir Leon Brittan29:46

Well, if I was asked to do it, I'd be delighted to do it. But again, I've no idea. But with all the jobs I've done, I've been asked to do things that I wasn't expecting. So it's no use sitting and thinking all the time, is somebody going to ask me to do this, that or the other? The only sensible thing to do is to do the job that I am doing at the moment and then see what happens.

Presenter30:06

Will you be deeply disappointed if it doesn't come in?

Sir Leon Brittan30:08

No, I will not be deeply disappointed because I'm not expecting it. But if the wheel of fate turns that way, I would like to contribute i in that way if it is possible. But at the moment, the two main things that I'm trying to do are to get an agreement on world trade talks, which will increase prosperity and job prospects all over the world, and that's very important, and also to try and bring closer together the countries of Eastern and Central Europe and Russia and so on to us. And I think that that is a challenge which is as historic and important as the one of bringing together the warring countries of Western Europe after the Second World War. So it's there's quite enough to be getting on with in my present job.

Speaker 130:52

Next record.

Sir Leon Brittan30:53

The next record is indeed in a way related to the last part of what I was saying. It is a part of Dvojak's cello concerto. The reason for choosing it is that it's got a wonderfully sort of lilting slavonic melody, but also because I've seen a lot of the Czechs in the last few months and they are pushing hard to rejoin the European family of nations in the broadest sense of the word, and we're trying to help them, and I think they're making a tremendous effort at it. So are others as well, but I've only got a limited number of pieces of music, so let's have the Dvozzek one.

Speaker 131:07

Melanie

Presenter32:33

Rostropovich playing part of the third movement at Vorjak's cello concerto, opus a hundred and four, with the Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Seiji Ozawa.

Presenter32:42

You might, of course, Ursuline, turn your back on Europe and come back to British politics.

Sir Leon Brittan32:47

Well, that's another option, isn't it? Yes.

Presenter32:50

Some say that the the job of Lord Chancellor would suit you rather well.

Sir Leon Brittan32:53

Well, it's uh very flattering, I suppose, to have everybody choosing jobs for me, but they'd better all these people are doing the choosing, it better sort of make up their mind which it's to be and then and then kindly offer it to be.

Presenter33:03

Well the other the other job that's talked of is uh being our first minister for Europe.

Sir Leon Brittan33:08

Well, uh countries have tried that. It doesn't always work terribly well because I think how you handle the European Community within national governments is a difficult matter. But I'm not touting for jobs. I'll see what happens.

Presenter33:22

Would you rather be anywhere rather than sitting on a desert island all by yourself?

Sir Leon Brittan33:25

I can't think of many things I'd less like than being on a desert island all by myself. I'm quite gregarious and uh wouldn't be very good at sort of doing what's necessary to keep alive on a desert island.

Presenter33:37

No.

Sir Leon Brittan33:37

Very practical, John.

Presenter33:39

And you'd be very miserable too emotionally, I'm sure,'cause obviously

Sir Leon Brittan33:42

Yes, yes. I don't know that I I know what kind of animals you'd find on this desert island, but I don't think I'd be very good at communicating them. Or to the sand, no, I don't think I'd get much of a response.

Presenter33:53

And in any case, you're not at all, as the man said, an extinct volcano.

Sir Leon Brittan33:57

Well, I hope not, no.

Presenter34:00

Last record.

Sir Leon Brittan34:01

The last record is part of the finale from Mozart's Die and Filk. Well it's very beautiful music, but it's a sort of reconciliation theme. Everybody sort of having uh had their problems it comes together in reconciliation. And uh I think that's a rather nice thought for a desert island. Rather nice thought if you're not on a desert island if it comes to that. At any rate the music is extremely beautiful.

Speaker 134:36

Why

Speaker 334:42

There's often bolt their guests and can, things even be it fair up.

Speaker 335:12

There's a filter wood for less and card Then say my neighbor

Presenter35:19

Part of the finale of Mozart's Die Infurung Astim Serai with the English Baroque Soloists conducted by John Elliott Gardner.

Presenter35:27

If you could only take one of those eight records, Celium.

Sir Leon Brittan35:30

Gosh, that really is extraordinarily difficult. And you leave out the wife. I've got to take the wife, haven't I? I can't leave it down. No, no question.

Presenter35:33

Can you leave out the wife?

Presenter35:36

I think that's it. What about your book as well as the Bible and Shakespeare?

Sir Leon Brittan35:43

Chaucer, the collected works of Chaucer, the Robinson edition, because Chaucer is is humorous, uh contains a

Sir Leon Brittan35:54

Tremendous sort of variety of life and profound as well. And it's just a bit difficult as well. So you can get sort of footnotes to look at and and and vocabulary to look up and so on. So, you know, you get your teeth into it as well. And I liked it when I was young. I read English, as you were saying, part one, uh at Cambridge, but haven't really had the time to sort of get into all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 136:01

So it is.

Speaker 336:02

Mm-hmm, I'm guessing.

Presenter36:18

It'll keep the brain oiled, wouldn't it?

Sir Leon Brittan36:19

I think it will, yes.

Presenter36:20

What about your luxury?

Sir Leon Brittan36:22

Now the luxury relates to another of my hobbies, which is walking. I thought a collection of the large scale ordnance survey maps of as much of your of England as you'll allow me to take, where I can plan walks when I escape from the desert island.

Presenter36:41

Cilian Britain, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Sir Leon Brittan36:44

Thank you, sir. I've enjoyed it enormously.

Speaker 336:53

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.