Evelyn Glennie

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 20:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety three and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is a musician. A farmer's daughter from north east Scotland, she began to lose her hearing at the age of eight. By the time she was twelve, she was profoundly deaf.

Presenter0:39

Nevertheless, she was determined to pursue a musical career, and at the age of sixteen won a place at the Royal Academy of Music, where she carried off several of the major prizes.

Presenter0:49

Today, although only twenty seven years old, she has an international reputation as a percussion virtuoso, giving more than a hundred concerts and recitals a year, playing hundreds of different instruments, from the tambourine and the tubular bells to the tom tom and the Chinese gong.

Presenter1:05

She shrugs off her deafness as an irrelevance. If anything she says, it's a musical advantage. She is Evelyn Glennie.

Presenter1:12

How can it be an irrelevance, Evelyn? I mean, surely music is written to be heard?

Presenter1:18

I think music

Evelyn Glennie1:19

Is an experience, it's an emotional experience. Music is oral, it's visual, it's something that quite often we can't actually explain, we can't actually find the words to explain it. And for me, I find that I get great satisfaction in trying to work out a score, in actually becoming one with my instruments, actually finding out the voice of the instrument, if you like, or the spirit of the instrument. But you can pick up a score, can you, and read it like a book? Yes, I can pick up really any score. Of course, the more contemporary it is, you know, if it's really squeakygate-type music, then that can be quite hard. But basically, I can pick up a score and make sense of it, and that's absolutely vital. So, basically, my listening repertoire is very small, but

Evelyn Glennie2:12

I can quite quickly read a score and really make sense of that.

Evelyn Glennie2:17

But how deaf are you? You're not stone deaf, you're not completely deaf. No, that's quite unusual. I'm classed as profoundly deaf, and that means that basically I have residual hearing. But I'm able to use my

Evelyn Glennie2:30

Body, if you like, in order to perceive sound. And so, therefore, because I soak myself with musical sounds, where the frequencies vary greatly, the dynamics vary, the timbre varies so much, that my body is just so, so aware of the different feelings that it receives from the instruments. And of course, because I actually produce the sound, I know exactly what I want to produce before I produce the sound on the instrument, and so therefore I have full understanding of what I'm actually giving.

Presenter3:05

But also when you went as you did a few years ago to Rio for the carnival, which is a a a cacophony of sound, some of that sound gets through to you, does it? Or yes, orally.

Evelyn Glennie3:15

Orally.

Presenter3:17

Yeah.

Evelyn Glennie3:17

Oh yes. The basic it's sometimes difficult to distinguish the difference between something that you feel physically and orally, funnily enough. If I'm outside taking a walk, for example, and if I see a tree move, I assume it's rustling. Therefore I assume it's making a rustling noise. Or if I see a bird flying, I assume it's chirping. So I imagine all those sounds within myself. Because you once heard them.

Presenter3:45

as I once heard them.

Evelyn Glennie3:46

Yeah.

Presenter3:46

However, an old-fashioned wind-up gramophone sitting on the beach on this desert island is not going to be a lot of use to you, is it? Dear I say

Evelyn Glennie3:54

No.

Presenter3:55

Yeah.

Evelyn Glennie3:55

I'd rather have the scores, perhaps. I find that quite often if I listen to music through a record player or something, then it it is distorted. And if I know the work, then it's better because I know what I'm listening out for. But how can you do that? Do you turn it up? No, I don't turn it up, then it becomes more painful. I take the covers off the speakers and I place the speakers next to my tummy or between my legs or somewhere next to my neck so that I can actually feel it. And then I get the basic dynamics and the basic rhythm. But to say whether a performance is a good performance or a very good performance is irrelevant. The subtleties you cannot pick up.

Presenter4:11

But how can you

Presenter4:13

Full volume.

Presenter4:40

Let's have your first record that you'll play on your desert island. I think we'd better give you special equipment so you can hear it with the with the speakers.

Evelyn Glennie4:45

Yeah.

Presenter4:46

Uh

Evelyn Glennie4:46

Uh

Presenter4:46

So

Evelyn Glennie4:46

So

Presenter4:46

Uh What what will it be?

Evelyn Glennie4:47

Well, I'm so, so fond of Elgar's Enigma variations, and in particular Nimrod. It's just such a simple, such a moving theme, and I play it on the marimba, where I can really delve into the lower end of the marimba, where the breadth of sound is just so incredibly warm, and this is always a favourite piece of mine.

Presenter6:11

Nimrod, one of Elgar's Enigma variations, played by the Philemonia Orchestra conducted by Sir John Barbaroli.

Presenter6:17

You've been told it many times, I know, Evelyn, but it it is very difficult to believe that you're deaf. Your lip reading, obviously, is perfect. But it's something more than that. Your voice is very well modulated, which is unusual for someone who's hard of hearing. How how do you explain that?

Presenter6:35

I think, um

Presenter6:36

First

Evelyn Glennie6:36

First of all, music is used a lot in schools for the deaf, and of course the earlier you can experience music, the better. Music really does help speech. And it's interesting that many of my friends who are deaf and who are musicians have very, very good speech, even if they've been born deaf. The remainder of my friends who are deaf but who are not musicians have fairly poor quality voices. And I think that we're so aware of vibration, so in tune with sound and what it means to us, that we're very aware of phrasing, of modulation, of accenting.

Presenter7:17

But obviously you are very good at and very convincing and a lot of people need not know day upon day upon day that you're

Evelyn Glennie7:25

Ex exactly. I mean, I'm basically a musician. I'm not a deaf musician. I just happen to be a musician who's chosen this career and I happen to be deaf, just as I happen to have brown hair. That's the sort sort of feeling

Presenter7:39

That I want to get across. In the beginning as a percussionist, you played mostly with an orchestra, didn't you? Which you don't do any more.

Evelyn Glennie7:45

No, I don't do that at all.

Presenter7:45

No.

Presenter7:47

But these days you're usually on your own. Although there are pieces for a cushion and a piano, how do you manage then? Where where are the clues that the pianist has to give you?

Evelyn Glennie7:57

When I work with a pianist, I don't regard it as a solo accompaniment situation. It really is a duo that we have. And so it's essential for my pianist to see me and to see my instruments and sticks so that he has visual clues. And also, it's essential that I see his keyboard, his face, his feet, and inside the piano. Can you get into a position where you can see all of that? Oh, yes, oh yes, absolutely. We have it all worked out. This means that basically we have total communication. The pianist that I use for most of my concerts, we've worked together for so long, for so many years now, that we're in a position where we can actually take chances in performances. So sometimes my pianist will go off and do something totally different that we've never done in rehearsal before or something, and I think, uh-oh, here we go, and I would do something myself. Does it frighten you?

Presenter8:21

Okay.

Evelyn Glennie8:53

No, it's that's the sort of thing that I love. It's that real kind of where you're sort of walking on a tightrope all the time. That I think is great. It keeps you on your toes. It's also showing off.

Evelyn Glennie9:08

Yeah.

Evelyn Glennie9:09

Should we have record number two? Well, I'm such a fan of Glen Gould's playing. I've read his books and I've listened to many of his recordings, and um I just find him the most remarkable human being. I think he was so eccentric. And for me, he's just

Evelyn Glennie9:30

Probably what I want to be.

Evelyn Glennie9:32

As a musician, so I've chosen J. S. Bach's Prelude in Fugue number twenty-one in B-flat major.

Presenter10:40

Glenn Gould playing part of Bach's Prelude and Fugue No. Twenty One in B-flat major.

Presenter10:45

You were born twenty seven years ago on a farm not far from Aberdeen.

Presenter10:50

And you were obviously quite a musical child, I think, weren't you?

Evelyn Glennie10:55

I don't know, really. We happened to have a piano in the house, and it was perhaps more of an ornament than a musical instrument. And I was just really intrigued. You know, I would do the usual thing by playing with two fingers, and but I had a very, very good ear. I would pick anything up, really, and probably the most remarkable thing was that I would play it at pitch as to w what I heard it at. And so this is called perfect pitch, really, and I was able to recognise all sorts of sounds and the keys of certain pieces and so on. But nevertheless, my parents didn't push me at all. I mean, I really had to ask and ask a lot before I was able to have even piano lessons. Is it possible for you still to have perfect pitch, or will that be? Oh, yes, yes. Yes, it is. Bus conductors may have it without really realising. And so it's something that doesn't disappear. It's just that I don't use it in the same way. When I look at a score now, then if I see a certain chord or notes or whatever, then I immediately know the pitch within myself. But if someone played a note to me on the piano, for example, that would be a very distorted sound, so it's impossible to really say.

Presenter12:05

It's impossible.

Presenter12:06

Yeah. But you can walk along playing pieces of music to yourself in your head. Oh, yes. That's not a problem. That's not a problem.

Evelyn Glennie12:12

That's not a problem.

Presenter12:14

When did you first notice that your

Evelyn Glennie12:15

Or there was something wrong with your ears.

Evelyn Glennie12:18

Well, as a youngster, at about the age of seven, eight, I was really experiencing very sore ears, and I could hardly bear to go outside. They would become quite inflamed. I was not a child who used to complain about anything, and we never went to the doctor, so my parents were at first a little reluctant to do anything about it, but eventually I went to the doctor, and of course the visiting school doctor noticed that I wasn't quite so attentive orally as perhaps I should have been, and so she reported this to my parents and so on. So it really built up like that. But perhaps during that time you'd actually been teaching yourself to lip read. Perhaps so. Perhaps maybe even I wasn't aware of it. All I knew was that over the next four years or so I was becoming very, very reliant on people's faces and people's movements, and I just found that I had to look at a person in order to understand them.

Presenter13:19

Do you remember the moment when it was finally diagnosed and you were told that you would be, or were about to be, profoundly deaf?

Evelyn Glennie13:27

Yes, I think it was a pretty hard situation on my mother especially. She took it quite badly. Whereas for me nothing had really changed. I mean it wasn't well suddenly one day you could hear and the next day you couldn't. It was all very gradual, which is great. And of course when you're young, I mean you can adapt to anything. And of course the older you become, the harder it is really. So for an adult to suddenly be told, well, your daughter is profoundly deaf, then that's quite hard to take, especially when it's so bluntly told to you.

Speaker 113:58

Uh

Evelyn Glennie14:01

So you've never felt yourself angry or frustrated about it or? Not really, because

Evelyn Glennie14:08

Fortunately I've been able to cope. If for some reason things became so hard or or if I hadn't been able to find

Evelyn Glennie14:17

something in life that I enjoy so much, perhaps then I may be frustrated or angry or bitter, but I honestly can say that you know I love my music so much that this for me is the most important thing in my life. I don't have time to think about not being able to hear or whatever.

Presenter14:38

But what happens, for example, um your parents still live in Scotland and you've made home here down south. You can't, as many daughters do, ring their mum up and have a quick chat. How do you do that?

Evelyn Glennie14:49

Yeah. No. Well, I use a fax machine. Also, if I do ring my mother up, then it's a it's a one sided conversation. So I just talk away to her and she just has to listen, which is great. But how do you know?

Presenter15:01

But how do you know she's there? Can she do anything?

Evelyn Glennie15:04

She taps on the phone with a pencil and then I can receive that, so I know she's there. But um now, because I'm engaged, my fiancé can listen up for me. But um I like to be independent, so I normally do it myself. Record number three.

Evelyn Glennie15:21

Well, I was, of course, very influenced by Scottish music as a youngster, and it's still something that I absolutely adore, and of course it's in my blood. And so I'd like to choose Max Houliston and his Scottish band, and um he's going to play the Isle of Skye

Presenter16:42

Max Hooderston and his Scottish band playing the Isle of Skye Real.

Presenter16:46

I can imagine that the pressure on you not to pursue a musical career was was huge. People must have thought

Presenter16:53

You were mad to want to. What sort of things did they say?

Presenter16:57

Well, why don't you become an account?

Evelyn Glennie16:59

or something. It was more

Evelyn Glennie17:03

Looking back now, I think they were just very, very concerned, first of all, and also they

Evelyn Glennie17:10

Perhaps assumed that music was about hearing. And of course, that's the assumption that we all make. And of course, it isn't. I mean, I really can't express that enough. We think it is, because we hear music when we go into a supermarket or a clothes store or something, or into a hotel, and music is just there all the time. It's in the background. And so it's really a rare thing to actually listen to music. We hear it so often, but to really listen to music is quite a rare thing.

Presenter17:42

And it's hard work. Do you go to operas and to concerts, Kenny? Do you do that?

Evelyn Glennie17:46

I love going to live concerts. Unfortunately, I can't do it as often as I'd like, but certainly I do. Because for me, you know, a performance is a whole performance. It isn't just about the musician playing the dots on the page. It's about what do they look like? How do they walk on the stage? What's the rapport like between them and the audience? Or the orchestra and the soloist, or the orchestra and the conductor, or whatever. You know, it really is the whole performance and the feeling that is created in the whole. That's what I'm after.

Presenter18:20

I I take your point that that uh listening to music is a is a total experience and that you sense it in many ways, but

Presenter18:28

Just explain to me in a little bit more detail how you hear with your body, because I know you you hear, for example, your timpani with your feet, don't you?

Presenter18:37

Basically

Evelyn Glennie18:37

I plow my whole body into the instrument. So low sounding instruments such as tympani or bass drum, even orchestral cymbals, you know, the clash cymbals really set your whole body off. And eventually you begin to recognise those sounds and recognise exactly where you're feeling them to such an extent that you can almost tell perhaps the interval of a third or a fourth or something, you know, so it's quite close. Depending whether it's in your big toe or your instep. Exactly. I mean, literally that. When I was a youngster, I would place my hands on the wall, and my teacher would play two drums, and I would say where I was feeling you know, through the wall, and coming through my hands, I'd say where I was actually feeling the notes that he was playing. And so he may have said, okay, which is the higher drum? And so I would say which one it was and why. So we would work like that until the intervals grew closer and closer together. And that was a great way of becoming so aware of another

Evelyn Glennie19:46

Dimension, if you like, a sound.

Presenter19:47

San

Evelyn Glennie19:48

Next piece of music

Evelyn Glennie19:50

Well, my musical tastes are so diverse, and I love pop music. I'm very aware of what's happening in the charts at the moment. And one of my favourite artists just now is Seal, and he's going to sing Killer.

Speaker 120:18

Will you give it

Speaker 120:22

If we try

Speaker 120:26

Where we live

Speaker 120:30

Or will we?

Speaker 120:32

Da

Speaker 120:34

Uh

Presenter20:34

Um

Presenter20:37

Seal singing killer

Presenter20:39

One of the disadvantages, Evelyn Glennie, of being a percussionist with an orchestra is presumably, and I shall offend some people here that you have to wait for ages and ages in order suddenly to go boom or ping.

Evelyn Glennie20:52

Well

Evelyn Glennie20:54

Sometimes that is the case, but wow, it's so rewarding when you come in in the right place. Awful of you to

Presenter21:00

Oh, wow. But um But is that one of the reasons that you became a soloist? That it that to be frank, it is a bit boring waiting for your big moment.

Evelyn Glennie21:00

And

Evelyn Glennie21:09

Yeah.

Presenter21:09

Well, I just finally

Evelyn Glennie21:10

I found that that that was part of the reason was having to wait, but also it was more the fact that I couldn't really express my playing how I wanted to in that the tempo of the piece and the dynamics and so on was all being dictated for me. But are there that many pieces written for a solo percussionist? Well, believe it or not, there are many, many pieces. However, many of them are not published. In my repertoire at the moment, I would have about thirty-four percussion concertos that I can actually play and that I have performed. But in my library at home, I'd have about two hundred. And I know that there are many more out there. But people have written specially for you, haven't they? Well, it's a very important part of my work to encourage composers to write for me. So I've had some tremendous composers who have written some very, very interesting pieces, such as James Macmillan, Richard Ronnie Bennett, Dominic Muldowney, John MacLeod, and many others who have written for actual recitals. Johnny Dankworth, I think. Johnny Dankworth has written one just recently, which is great, a very different style.

Presenter22:20

Which is

Evelyn Glennie22:23

For me

Presenter22:24

And you obviously, as you've said, enjoy performance for its own sake. How do you

Evelyn Glennie22:27

For its own sake.

Presenter22:29

Uh how do you feel the audience then? Obviously you see them put their hands together at the end, but what what more is there for you to sense and to feel?

Evelyn Glennie22:33

Yeah.

Presenter22:37

Yeah.

Evelyn Glennie22:37

I think it's just basically the atmosphere that you create and generate during a performance that's crucial. It isn't just the end clapping, really. Can you feel it during audience? Oh, yes. I mean, one of the reasons why I like to speak during my recitals is to get to know my audience. You know, they've paid money to be there to see me, and I want to present Evelyn Glennie.

Presenter22:47

Failed.

Evelyn Glennie23:01

And there's more to Evelyn than just being a percussionist or just a musician. And so I really want to present Evelyn. And so this means that I I feel comfortable talking to them. Also, I need

Evelyn Glennie23:15

To relax in between each piece because it can be quite physical.

Presenter23:19

Echo number 5.

Evelyn Glennie23:22

Well, I'd like to choose Richard Strauss's Alpine Symphony, the very beginning of that. For me it depicts such an incredible picture where one can imagine the Alps and gradually the sun emerging from the Alps and you see these sort of shapes of the great mountains and suddenly you begin to see all the details and so on. And the music is just so incredibly descriptive. It's just fantastic.

Presenter24:49

Part of Richard Strauss's Alpine Symphony, Opus Sixty Four, played by the Concert Gebar Orchestra of Amsterdam, conducted by Bernard Heitink.

Presenter24:58

Of course, one of the reasons that people want to compose for you, Evelyn, is that you have such a huge repertoire of instruments. Have you any idea how many you can play?

Evelyn Glennie25:04

Yeah.

Evelyn Glennie25:07

No, I haven't counted yet, but um many of the instruments, the actual techniques of playing the instruments are related. So, you know, I would probably play about two hundred, but of course many of them are very portable. So, you know, it doesn't sound quite so stunning really. But where do you find them all? I mean, you you travel about the world looking for them. Yes. Well, whenever I go around the world performing, then I try to pick up the traditional instrument of that particular country. And then I love to meet with the natives, if you like, to see how it's used. And so this allows me to capture the real spirit of the music and the instrument.

Speaker 125:18

Next question.

Evelyn Glennie25:47

I've seen it.

Presenter25:48

I've seen you describe yourself as the David Attenborough of the instrument world. The trouble is, of course, that you don't want to just go and look at these rare species in their habitats. You want to bring them home. Absolutely. Do they always survive? Or perhaps they don't like our temperature?

Speaker 225:59

Eight den

Evelyn Glennie26:03

Most of them are actually okay, but you're absolutely right in that it is quite often essential to keep them in a fairly regular temperature and if suddenly they're stuck out in the cold or something, then you'll damage them. You know, you have to be very, very careful. Have you got a favourite instrument? I don't really have a favourite. They're all my favourites. I love to play Marumba, but that's because there's a lot of repertoire written for it. Also, it has a terrific range. The the sort of depth and the warmth of the the bass end is wonderful. It can sound like an organ or it can be like bullets. It can be so percussive.

Presenter26:45

Tell me about your next record.

Evelyn Glennie26:47

Well, I've chosen the Black Dyke Mills band playing Blitz. The quality of playing, the actual technical side of playing, is absolutely stunning. I mean, it can just be so perfect. And for me, whenever I experience a brass band, I it just gives me incredible oomph, if you like, incredible hope that, well, perhaps one day I can play as technically perfect as them, and hopefully I can put the music in too.

Presenter28:20

The Black Dyke Mills band playing part of Derek Bourgeois's Blitz.

Presenter28:24

How will you be on the desert island, Evelyn? Are you you're very practical, are you? Yes, I am. What would you miss most, do you think?

Evelyn Glennie28:31

Many, many things, I'm sure, but I think perhaps variety in scenery. Funnily enough, one thing that I have

Evelyn Glennie28:43

because of my travelling is that I just marvel at the the type of scenery that I can come across. There was one month about two years ago where I experienced within one month I experienced summer time in Australia, I experienced extreme winter in the north of Norway and of course I experienced the English weather and it was just so incredible to really have that feeling within one month and I think I would really miss the seasons and I'd miss the variety in scenery. However, I love water but I desperately, desperately love the hills.

Evelyn Glennie29:26

And you'd miss your fiancée, whom you're marrying. Is he in the business?

Evelyn Glennie29:33

Well, my my fiancé at the moment is a recording engineer. We've just built a commercial recording studio, and so he's developing that project.

Presenter29:42

And is married life going to mean a a a great deal of difference to your professional life, do you think? Do you think you'll stop globetrotting quite so much?

Evelyn Glennie29:51

Probably not. Certainly not, in fact. That would just keep going. I think if ever we decided to have little nippers running around, have kids or something, then perhaps obviously we would rethink. I mean, I've had such a secure upbringing myself that I wouldn't want anything less than that for my own children. Record number seven.

Evelyn Glennie30:13

Well, I'm a a great admirer of Annie Lennox. For me she is a really raw musician, but I mean that as a compliment in that she can stand up, use her own voice and create such an incredible atmosphere and feeling, and she has just such command over her music. And um I would love to choose her song Why?

Speaker 130:43

That's why it hurts so bad to hear the words that keep on falling from your mouth.

Speaker 130:58

Oh man

Presenter31:09

Annie Lennox and Y.

Presenter31:11

I come back really to where we began, Evelyn, and your statement that your deafness is an irrelevance. Let me ask you bluntly, if you could be granted one wish, surely it would be to have your hearing back?

Evelyn Glennie31:24

I don't think so. I think if losing my hearing happened later in life, much, much later in life, it would have been perhaps much harder to cope with because, of course, you're set in your ways and it's very, very difficult to adapt, really, when you're older. So i in a way, you know, if you're going to lose anything, then the best time to lose it is is when you're a child, really, because you can always adapt. So I can't really say that having my hearing back would be the greatest wish on earth. I've developed

Speaker 131:52

Billy

Evelyn Glennie32:02

a sense I've developed Evelyn, if you like, by being as I am. I mean, I'm a musician who in a way sees music from two different angles, and that for me is a gift, you know, and I don't want that to be taken away from me.

Evelyn Glennie32:19

Uh

Presenter32:19

I suppose, though, the reverse of my question is

Presenter32:22

Would you be as good a percussionist if you weren't deaf?

Evelyn Glennie32:26

Uh

Evelyn Glennie32:27

That I can't answer. I would have to have my hearing back to really know. I have no idea.

Evelyn Glennie32:33

Let's have your last record.

Evelyn Glennie32:36

Well, one composer whom I absolutely adore, and I always have to make sure I have a packet of Kleenix beside me, and that's Rach Maninoff, and I'd like to choose his piano concerto, number two in C minor.

Presenter33:50

Part of Rachmaninoff's concerto number two in C minor, played by Arto Rubinstein, with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Fritz Reiner and Not a Dry Eye in the studio.

Speaker 134:00

Yeah.

Presenter34:00

Yeah.

Presenter34:02

So if you could only take one of those records, Evelyn, which one would it be?

Evelyn Glennie34:06

I would choose the Rachmananoff piano concerto because there we have the colour of the orchestra, we have a a wonderful concerto with a fantastic instrument that is incredibly emotional. We have musicality, we have technique, it creates or disturbs, I don't know, it really activates every kind of emotion really within myself and um it really has to be the Rachmananoff.

Presenter34:35

You persuaded yourself.

Evelyn Glennie34:37

Oh, it's hard.

Presenter34:37

It's hard.

Evelyn Glennie34:40

Well, I've chosen a book called The Way of the Peaceful Warrior by Dan Milman. It's a book that was first introduced to me by another percussionist, and um since then I've read it about a hundred times. It's basically a self-awareness book, and I spent a while where I read nothing but self-improvement books, and I found that, you know, I I really got a lot of enjoyment out of that, and this was one of my favourite ones. And your luxury.

Evelyn Glennie35:15

A little secret which will no longer be a secret, but I'm I'm addicted to chocolate and so I really, really would have to have just stacks and stacks of chocolate bars an endless supply of chocolate.

Presenter35:29

Chuck.

Evelyn Glennie35:30

Clit.

Presenter35:30

Evelyn Glennie, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs. Pleasure.

Evelyn Glennie35:35

Thank you.

Presenter35:35

Yeah.

Speaker 235:43

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.