Barbara Mills QC

Barbara Mills QC0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Barbara Mills QC0:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety three and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:28

My castaway this week is a barrister. In a profession that's still cautious, to say the least, about women, she's enjoyed an outstanding career. In nineteen eighty two she prosecuted Michael Fagin for breaking into the Queen's bedroom at Buckingham Palace, and five years later defended Winston Silcott, who was convicted then cleared of murdering a policeman in the Broadwater farm riot.

Presenter0:49

In nineteen ninety she was appointed head of the Serious Fraud Office, and then, eighteen months later, moved to her present position. She took it over at a time of increasing public unease about the management of the legal system. The first woman to hold the job, and the first person to be appointed to it after open competition, she's the Director of Public Prosecutions, Barbara Mills, QC.

Presenter1:11

All of which is a a great achievement for someone who was actively discouraged uh from becoming a barrister when she first mooted the idea, isn't it?

Presenter1:19

Well, I suppose so, but I really always wanted to do it ever since I became conscious of what sort of job I wanted to do. But what sort of things did people say to you to put you off? Well, the classic one was women can't be barristers, and that was repeated in one form or another by a number of people. But by whom? What sort of people? By all sorts of different people, rather surprisingly, by dons who were interviewing me with a view to reading law, by a number of lawyers themselves. But I thought this couldn't be right, and so I persevered, and I'm very glad I did. But what reasons did they give? I think they were really rather lacking in reason. They were just the sort of knee-jerk reaction you sometimes get to someone who's breaking into a world which perhaps has not had many women in it. It had very few when I started. It's much better now. Still hasn't got very many then. Well, you get roughly fifty per cent of the intake now to the legal profession. Talk about it widely, both solicitors and barristers are women.

Barbara Mills QC2:04

Stan hasn't got

Presenter2:13

The thing I think that you need to look at is how many of them are still there, aged thirty, thirty-five, and what positions they're beginning to achieve.

Presenter2:19

So was the pressure on you greater than it would have been on a man? That's what women who have achieved distinction in their field usually say. I think it is, because you're watched the whole time, or you feel you're watched the whole time. I think anyone who's in a tiny minority for one reason or another does tend to stand out, and it does put quite a lot of pressure on you. And do you think that's unfair?

Presenter2:38

I think it's one of the things you have to live with until the numerical balance gets much better. It's irritating, though, isn't it? It is a bit irritating, yes.

Presenter2:46

Um

Presenter2:47

Before people think this is developing into a feminist wind between us here, I I think you'd be the first to admit that you couldn't have achieved what you've achieved without a very supportive husband.

Barbara Mills QC2:50

Yeah.

Presenter2:56

Absolutely right. I've been very happily married for over thirty years now. Not only husband, but also family support, friends support uh very important to me throughout my life.

Presenter3:07

You also uh strike one reading about you as being the sort of woman who would cope admirably on a desert island, that you're sensible, you're organized, and you're not prone to panic. Is that fair?

Presenter3:17

I hope so, but I think you never can tell entirely until you're put into a position. I think probably I'm fairly practical. I'm self-reliant. I was until recently self-employed all my life, and that makes you pretty self-reliant. Um so yes, I think I could cope, but I would miss people and I would miss my family in particular. And what would be the first record you'd put on your gramophone? Well the first record I'd put on my gramophone um would be perhaps an unusual choice um Elvis Presley blue suede shoes.

Barbara Mills QC3:38

Well

Presenter3:45

And I've chosen my records because they remind me of various episodes in my life, and on my own I think I'd think about them. And this really is the first episode where I became alive and alert to music, which was in my teens and when rock and roll and everything that went with it burst round us. And I had great difficulty in deciding what to choose, but it had to be the King. And of the King's records it seems to me that Blue Spade Shoes was the best.

Speaker 34:10

Well it's one for the money, two for the show Ready to get ready now, go get on But don't you

Speaker 34:17

That one my blue with the

Speaker 34:21

Well you can do anything, but I hope you

Speaker 34:27

Knock me down, stab in my face Slamming my name all over the place Do anything that you wanna do But uh uh honey, lay off on my shoes Don't you stepping

Presenter4:40

Elvis Presley and blue suede shoes. You're not only the first woman DPP, Director of Public Prosecutions, Barbara Mills, you're the first DPP to be appointed, as I said, as a result of open competition. The job was advertised, which is

Presenter4:54

Revolutionary for the civil service, isn't it? Well, yes. In fact, it had been done for the director of the Serious Fraud Office, and I feel to some extent I've been a guinea pig and that I'm the first person to have done it, and I've now done it twice. But I think it's very important. I'm very much in favour of openness and having a wide selection for any post. It has permanent secretary status. That's correct. And you've got a staff of 6,000 and a budget of 250 million.

Presenter5:20

And you have a minister. Well, you've got two ministers, haven't you? No, I've got one minister, the Attorney General. But I have a most unusual relationship with a minister for a permanent secretary. The technical word used is superintendence. And the importance of this is that the Crown Prosecution Service, which I head, is an independent prosecuting authority. And although any government department must have a minister to answer and be accountable to Parliament, it's very important that a prosecuting authority should be and should be seen to be separate from any possible political influence. So what that means is your minister, unlike ministers in other departments, can't tell you what to do. Well of course we inform and consult and we stay in close contact, but this is a constitutional independence of the prosecution which I think is crucial. So the crux of it is you take the decisions. You take your own decisions. That must make it a very lonely job. It can be lonely. Obviously I have some very senior people that I work with, but I think when you head any organisation from time to time you do have lonely decisions to make which only you can make after having taken the the best advice from the best people. So having taken that advice, is it you who go back to your office or wherever you sit and think and decide then with all the information and evidence around you you have to decide whether or not to proceed with the prosecution shall we say against the West Midlands police following allegations of corruption or against the Maxwell brothers? I never talk about individual cases obviously but in general principle in the the major cases and the most sensitive cases having discussed it with everyone sometimes we're able to arrive at a decision then and there in a meeting sometimes I decide it myself but I prefer to try to do it with others in a meeting.

Presenter7:01

which must make it to an extent a lonely job, and one in which you need, or perhaps quickly develop, a thick skin.

Presenter7:09

I think that's right. There's quite a lot of criticism directed at the Director of Public Prosecutions. This is nothing new. It's gone on ever since the Post was created in the eighteen eighties.

Presenter7:19

But has your skin got markedly thicker over the past eight or nine months? I think that criticism is something which is very interesting because I find criticism helpful, provided that it's founded on a decent and reasonable factual basis. And sometimes I modify my or my service's approach to things because of this. I find it valuable. But yes, of course, you have to be resilient, I think is the word I would use, rather than thick skinned.

Presenter7:44

Record number two.

Presenter7:45

Well, the second record I've chosen is by Edith Piaff.

Presenter7:49

Again, I had difficulty in choosing the particular one by her, but it jeune re gratitene, and the reason I've chosen this is for me it reflects Oxford, which was a very important time in my life too, when I was at the university, and a great new world, in a sense, opened up for me.

Speaker 28:05

Oh yeah, Doria.

Speaker 28:11

Notorians.

Speaker 28:16

Nila beyá coma fa niga má usa ne biene ga

Speaker 28:28

Yeah.

Speaker 28:29

Ria do Ria No Rado Re to Ria.

Presenter8:31

Ah

Presenter8:32

No

Presenter8:35

Edith Piaff and Jeaneau Regrette Rien. Life opened up at Oxford, you said. Was it particularly narrow beforehand? Well, um, I don't want to sound ungrateful, because I had a very, very good education at school, but it was very much focussed on the academic world, which I think has stood me in good stead in due course. But at Oxford I realised there was a much bigger, wider world, and I liked the look of it. I also by this stage had got set on becoming a barrister, or all the people who said you couldn't, in a sense, or most of them, had fallen by the wayside by that stage, because there I was set on doing it. And so I felt that my future was much more assured and clear. I don't think I quite realised the problems there were lying ahead, but it felt reasonably assured and clear, and I thoroughly enjoyed my time at Oxford. And I met my husband.

Presenter9:23

Quite young. You married quite young. Yes, I was twenty one when I married.

Barbara Mills QC9:24

Okay, so

Presenter9:26

And twenty two when you had your first baby. That's right. Just as you did your bar finals. Yes, she was born three weeks after I did my bar exams. I think. That must have been a painful, difficult coincidence. I think that it was a a good job I passed first time.

Barbara Mills QC9:33

That must

Presenter9:40

Or I might not be here today. Not to be recommended any plan. No, I wouldn't uh recommend it as as planning, though in fact it did mean that um I had uh passed my bar exams and got my first child by the time I was twenty two.

Speaker 39:52

Cool.

Presenter9:53

which at the time was very hard work, but I think in later years turned out to be an advantage. Also, I've never really known much of a married life without having children, and so I got used to the whole business of slotting in work and family and children right from the very beginning. My twenties were quite tiring, rather busy time. You've been quoted as saying that that as a practising barrister you had to turn up at the Old Bailey at ten o'clock in the morning and give a case your full attention, even if your child was being operated on that day. I mean, are you is it as easy as that in practice? Are you such a no-nonsense person? No, of course it's not. I gave that as an example of a time when you're deeply torn between your two obligations. You're both professional and you're a mother, and you do get that tremendous tearing, and I found that the most difficult thing of all.

Barbara Mills QC10:27

Sorry.

Presenter10:40

Most of the time, life went along relatively smoothly. We had it reasonably well organised, so I felt content that when I was working the children were at school or were well looked after or whatever when they were young. But as I say, that sort of thing was heart-tearing. But if you're in a case, unless you're talking about a life and death situation, what are you going to do? Are you going to ask the judge to rise for the whole day? I mean, it is a real problem. But it's a matter of actually getting your mind on the subject, isn't it? That's right. If you are defending or prosecuting somebody, obviously, you've got to have your full mind on the job. Absolutely. You're there representing them, and that's what you've got to do. And that is tough. And being a barrister is an unforgiving sort of life for that very good reason, that you've got to be there all the time, and it's very difficult for you to book things in advance, and it's not a life which fits in well with emergencies.

Barbara Mills QC11:04

Yeah.

Speaker 211:04

But it's a matter

Barbara Mills QC11:08

That's right.

Presenter11:29

But in fact I solved the one that day by going in to see the child first thing in the morning. It wasn't a life and death operation at all, but um and at lunch time and at tea time and working in between. I wouldn't recommend that for a long time either. What you're really saying is that you have to compartmentalise. Absolutely. I have to. I'm not I think other people may be able to do it in different ways, but that's the way I

Barbara Mills QC11:38

Wouldn't you recommend that for a long time either?

Barbara Mills QC11:42

Absolutely.

Presenter11:48

Work best and look after my family best. And do you manage to do that all the time? Are you a no-nonsense person in everything you do, or are there

Presenter11:56

Are there vulnerable bits? Of course there are vulnerable bits. Everyone's got vulnerable bits. But I try to do my best by everyone all the time and um save a bit of time for myself too. I think that's quite important because otherwise you perhaps don't keep things in balance. Makes you sound like a saint. Oh, I'm not saintly at all. I get cross quite often.

Presenter12:15

And do you get cross with yourself as much as I can? I get cross with myself. I get cross about things which ought to r run smoothly and aren't running smoothly and they're therefore jeopardising other people in one way or another, uh and which aren't fair. Um I think fairness matters a great deal to me.

Barbara Mills QC12:17

I get cross of

Presenter12:29

So you're a list maker? Oh, very much. And a ticker offer, as you do it. Very much, and a forward planner. And are you uh didn't you once call yourself the original Final Facts woman? That's quite right. I still use one. I'm hoping to convert shortly to something rather more sophisticated. Shall we have record number three? Record number three reflects what I've been talking about. It's uh Vidor, the Tocata, from his organ symphony, number five. It's what we played at our wedding, it's what was played at our daughter's wedding, and for me, therefore, it reflects very much our family life.

Barbara Mills QC12:38

Tony

Presenter13:59

Simon Preston playing V Doors to Carter from his Organ Symphony number five.

Presenter14:04

You worked, Barbara Mills, as both prosecution and defence counsel, and then in nineteen seventy seven you were also taken on by the Inland Revenue as a prosecutor. Does that mean that you found yourself enjoying complex financial problems? Yes, I think I when I was prosecuting I always found the most rewarding sort of cases were the complicated ones where in the end you managed to get it down to the basics and present it very simply to a jury.

Presenter14:29

And I was very fortunate to be chosen for that particular position, which was any a part time position. We did a three or four cases a year, probably. That kind of background then really made you a fairly obvious choice to take over as head of the Serious Fraud Office when the post became vacant in nineteen ninety nine.

Presenter14:45

The SFO, that's the office that deals with only big money crime, isn't it? That's right. It only handles a limited number, between fifty and sixty cases, of the really serious fraud cases. Therefore they are necessarily the very big ones and the very complex ones. Nothing below two million, is it a matter of money? That's right. I think it may have gone up now from that.

Barbara Mills QC15:00

Nothing good.

Presenter15:04

You found yourself there accused of being overzealous on occasions, didn't you, of staging dawn raids on companies and causing their share prices to plummet.

Presenter15:13

Those were the accusations. As I say, I always pay a lot of attention to criticism, but in fact they were ill founded for quite different reasons. We acted extremely cautiously in so far as share prices were concerned, because the information which we had was very market sensitive and we had to handle it very, very carefully indeed.

Presenter15:34

As far as dawn raids were concerned, we sometimes felt that it was necessary for operational reasons that the police should go in early in the morning. Others may have disagreed with us. Why? Because people might run otherwise. There's always a risk in some cases. It always just seems rather dramatic when one reads about it in the papers. Well, this is an operational decision for the police, and if in fact you get it wrong, you get criticised the other way, I can assure you. But as far as those dawn raids were concerned, the publicity, I was absolutely against any question of there being any publicity about them. If you take the more mundane aspect, it can be very counterproductive if you do that. But if you take the wider aspect with which I was concerned, I think it's most unfair to have that sort of publicity. It still goes on, of course, doesn't it? It happened recently in the case of one of the Maxwell brothers that the press turns up at whatever it is six o'clock in the morning. Well, all I can say is when I was in charge of the serious fraud office, I made it absolutely clear that I took a very, very serious view of anyone who deliberately tipped off the press in those circumstances. Why is that exactly? Can I ask you to be precise? Is that because, again, the man in question is innocent until proven guilty? Well, I just think that you ought to give everyone the fairest possible trial in due course and that that sort of publicity can prejudice trials, and that's why I took a very serious view of it.

Barbara Mills QC16:16

Uh

Presenter16:48

And I still do. Should we have some more music?

Presenter16:51

The next one that I've chosen is a piece from A Masked Ball in Ballon Mascare, my favourite opera. And I've chosen the quintet in it, sung by Placido Domingo. I was lucky enough once to hear him sing this. And it's a very poignant quintet. He is the king, and it has been forecast that he in fact will be killed by the next person who comes to see him. It turns out to be his best friend.

Presenter17:15

He doesn't believe it, and he doesn't believe the prophecy.

Presenter17:18

But you hear his page singing over the top of this quintet in an extremely sad way because she realizes it will happen.

Speaker 317:26

Yeah.

Barbara Mills QC17:58

Yes.

Barbara Mills QC18:05

Yeah.

Speaker 318:09

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Speaker 318:12

First boy of the wheel.

Presenter18:25

Placido Domingo, Jelena Obrazzova, Ruggiero Raimondi, Giovanni Fogiani, and Editor Gruberova, singing part of the quintet Escherzzo ode folia from the first act of Verdi's Un Ballo in Mascara, with the orchestra of La Scala Milan, conducted by Claudio Abardo.

Presenter18:42

Of course, what you'd done in nineteen ninety, Barbara Mills, in becoming head of the SFO, was you'd crossed the great divide between private and public sector. That meant, among other things, taking a large drop in salary, didn't it?

Presenter18:57

Well, let me say that the the the job I think carries a salary of something like seventy seven thousand pounds a year. You would have uh been earning at least twice that. Yes, I was. But

Barbara Mills QC19:05

Yes I'm

Presenter19:07

I think I've been very fortunate. I've been very well paid for the work that I've been doing for quite some time. And I think there's a lot more in life than just earning money. And the opportunity to become the director of the Serious Fraud Office was such a wonderful opportunity that it was well worth taking a drop in salary. And you've never regretted that since? I've never ever regretted it. There are certain things I've missed, but a lot that I've gained. But one of the things you sacrificed in becoming a civil servant, which is basically what you were doing.

Barbara Mills QC19:34

Yeah.

Presenter19:36

was the right to appear in the higher courts and after twenty-eight years at the bar that must have been and must still be deeply frustrating. It is frustrating and I think it's absurd. I was one of the counsel in the Guinness case until that concluded in August of 1990. In September of 1990 I became the director of the Serious Fraud Office, a matter of two weeks later. And by virtue of becoming an employed barrister, I was no longer able to appear in any of the higher courts, even to do the simplest of cases. And that seems to me to be a ridiculous rule, and I very much hope that it's going to be changed. Are you going to make it your business to get it changed? I am trying to do so at the moment. On behalf of the Crown Prosecution Service, we've been asking for rights of audience in a limited number of cases.

Barbara Mills QC20:13

Yeah.

Presenter20:20

For our barristers and also for our solicitors. I have two thousand lawyers working for me.

Barbara Mills QC20:24

But I have

Presenter20:26

What that presumably means is, um not obviously in all cases, but that quite often you perhaps don't attract the calibre of advocate that you might because advocates don't want to give up that right of audience. Yes, I'm very impressed by the calibre of people that we do have working for us, but I'm sure that they feel like me, they've qualified like the barristers in independent practice, and why should it be that they're therefore

Barbara Mills QC20:37

Uh

Presenter20:47

Provided they have the correct training, not able to appear in the higher courts. And I think they feel like me, apart from anything else, affronted that we should lose this particular right in this way. Do you also feel affronted that if as a civil servant, as you say, you're professionally barred from Crown Courts and so on, as a woman you're personally barred from clubs such as the Garrick and the Oxford and Gambia? Yes, I do. I think it's old-fashioned. And I regret that the Garrick has voted in the way it has. And I hope that they will in fact change. I suspect that they will. Pity they didn't do it this time. Do you suspect that they will? Isn't it less likely to happen than that the legal system will change? I think both will change. How long?

Presenter21:27

Within my working life.

Presenter21:31

Record number five. Record number five is a game very different. Scott Joplin Maple Leaf Rag, a very cheerful tune, which we often play in the car if we're going on holiday.

Presenter22:39

Scott Joplin's Maple Leaf Rag played by Dick Wellstood.

Presenter22:42

You became DPP in the middle of nineteen ninety two after your predecessor, Sir Alan Greene, had been forced to resign. It's a time, as I said at the outset, of public unease because of a series of miscarriages of justice that have come to light over recent months, the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, Judith Ward, Stefan Kishku, and indeed Winston Silcott, whom you originally defended.

Presenter23:04

It all makes your job at the Crown Prosecution Service one of regaining the trust and respect of the public, doesn't it? Is that possible?

Presenter23:13

Yes, it's very important to do this, and I do think it's possible. It's one of the major tasks that I have set for myself and the service. One of the ways in which we started to do this is to be much more open about the sort of work we do, because I think when people understand what your role is and how you work, and what you can and what you can't do, then they understand how problems can arise. And that is one of the things which I've spent a lot of time on in the first seven months. But one of the things you've been talking about during those seven months is that you want to see a greater disclosure of evidence obtained during the investigation. Are you actually suggesting that the police should hand over evidence which may help the defence? Oh, absolutely. But I mean, this has been the guidance since 1981 when the Attorney General offered guidelines as to how we should handle what's called unused material. In other words, statements which are taken by the police, which don't, for one reason or another, form part of the prosecution case, but which may help the defence. But is it realistic to expect the police to hand over information which may let the man they've been trying to pin down for weeks off the hook? It's not only realistic, it has to be done. And what has happened since 1981 and particularly recently is that the law relating to this has been extended very rapidly indeed.

Presenter24:26

and with only the most minor of exceptions, everything now should be handed over. We need to get it from the police, because they're the investigating authorities in most of the cases. We then need to look at it and to hand it on to the defence and make sure they've got it too. But perhaps a very good example, and I know you can't comment on individual cases, but perhaps a very good example is that of Judith Ward, who was convicted of the M sixty-two Army coach bombing, served eighteen years in prison. But there was psychiatric evidence which had it been handed over she might not have been convicted. Well, as I say, I can't comment on any individual cases. I would also say that this was indeed eighteen years ago, and as I've already mentioned, there's been an enormous development in this field. Latterly, even in the last two years, there's been tremendous development.

Presenter25:09

And so I am optimistic that whatever problems have been caused in the past by non-disclosure will not occur in future. I cannot rule it out totally, but I am optimistic that there is a much more wide approach to it. But isn't it all rather idealistic? Do you really believe it can happen? You say it should happen, but can it happen? I do. I think we have a splendid opportunity now. We've got a Royal Commission which is examining all these problems. They are expecting to report next summer, and I hope that this really is a time when we can have change for the better all round. Everyone needs change for the better here.

Presenter25:43

Some more music.

Presenter25:45

I very much enjoy working, and when I work I often play music. I have a C D player beside my desk, and I frequently play Chopin. And what I've chosen here is his Waltz in A flat major. It reminds me of my work, and I think I'm very lucky to enjoy the job that I do as much as I do.

Presenter27:01

Vladimir Ashkenazi playing Chopin's waltz in A flat major, opus sixty four, number three.

Presenter27:07

Isn't it that kind of thinking and you were describing there the very, very independent role that the DPP has to play there? Isn't it that kind of thinking that makes

Presenter27:16

Is your department's relationship with the police necessarily a very tense one? It really isn't a tense one at all. One thing to bear in mind is that Crown Prosecution Service is a very new service indeed, set up in 1986 to be an independent prosecution service, also to review all the cases that we get and review them continuously to see whether these cases should continue once they've been started. But to take over work that the police were doing, which they did resent at the time.

Barbara Mills QC27:40

That's correct.

Presenter27:42

I believe they did. I wasn't there at the time, and I was mainly concentrating on fraud work by that stage in my career, so I really wasn't much involved with it. All I can say is the way that I find the relationships now, which are easy and helpful, and we work very closely together, really respecting each other's professionalism. They are the investigators, and we then review and prosecute if we think it's appropriate. But one comes back to the point that one can imagine investigating officers thinking to themselves, she must be joking if she thinks I'm going to hand over this piece of evidence, which is going to ruin the case I've just set up. Well, we have very clear guidelines now, which means that in fact if disclosure has not been done properly in the Court of Appeal, that conviction will be quashed. And I think that the police appreciate the importance of doing a fair job in all cases. They appreciate their comeuppance in the end.

Presenter28:32

I wouldn't like to put it that way, but it's a bit pointless putting a lot of work into a case than to find that it's in due course the conviction is quashed. The other thing that goes on being permissible is the uncorroborated confession, because as much as interviews with suspects are taped, or indeed they may well be videotaped in time to come, a policeman can still say that a prisoner said something to him in the back of the car. Do you think that's fair?

Presenter28:58

As far as uncorroborated confessions are concerned, they obviously vary enormously from the sort of thing you've been describing to a long and detailed account of what happened. I think that we ought to approach this with great caution, but on the other hand, if you do have someone who does confess in detail and everyone is satisfied that that is a truthful confession, I'm not sure it would really do our system much good if we said, Well, actually, we can't prosecute that person.

Presenter29:23

It is obviously very complicated and a very delicate business and the subject of a Royal Commission indeed. Is it the sort of stuff that keeps you awake at night? It certainly doesn't keep me awake at night, but I do think a lot about my work. But what I do try to do is also to have some time to relax, time to get away from it, because I think you come back fresher then to the the problems that you're dealing with on a day-by-day basis.

Presenter29:46

Record number seven.

Presenter29:48

Well, record number seven really does reflect to some extent the relaxation. I've chosen Unto Us a Child Is Born from Handel's Messiah. As I've said already, I draw an enormous amount of support from a very happy family life, and we have enormous family gatherings. We have a big family. I've married into a big family, so there are lots of us. And this, to me, reflects Christmas, which is perhaps one of the happiest of family gatherings.

Speaker 330:10

Fallen Musket Church is the church

Speaker 330:49

Don't come upon the snow!

Speaker 330:53

We are the man to be the bonus of the land his name's Ready Paul!

Presenter31:11

Unto us a child is born from Handel's Messiah, with the Bavarian Radio Orchestra and Chorus conducted by Sir Colin Davis, and memories of family Christmases for my castaway Barbara Mills. I read that your holidays can often be getting into a plane piloted by your husband and flown away to somewhere exotic.

Presenter31:27

That's right. My husband's a an amateur pilot, but very highly qualified, and we started off with small trips and we've gradually done larger ones, and it's been very exciting, occasionally rather frightening for me.

Presenter31:40

But we've gone both by ourselves and with all our family. The children are all grown up now. Yes, the children are all grown up now. Because you had them so young. Well,'cause I had them when I was very young.

Barbara Mills QC31:45

Yeah.

Barbara Mills QC31:47

There you go.

Presenter31:48

I'm sure it's been a a constant struggle to get the balance right between work and family, and no woman can ever claim to have got it right. But do you feel when they were young that you came somewhere near to?

Barbara Mills QC31:53

Yeah.

Presenter31:59

I hope so. I mean, there are always things which perhaps you think you could have done differently. But on the other hand, I think it's worked out very well. We're still a very close family. We see a lot of each other. Perhaps that's the the best way of judging it when they've grown up and they haven't grown away from you. But didn't you ever miss the sports day or the prize giving and all those things? We tried not to. We juggled it. I tended to do the evenings and my husband found it easier to reorganise his day. So we used to split it. And perhaps the high watermark was once when I had one child at a school in Camden and one in Westminster. And I did the first half of the Carol concert in Camden and the second half in Westminster. But I think it's very important to do that. We always tried to spend a lot of time with the children when we weren't working. And I hope we succeeded in that.

Barbara Mills QC32:18

See?

Presenter32:43

What about now, as DPP? Presumably the demands on your time are even greater? They are pretty substantial. Like so many of these jobs, I think a lot of it is what you create yourself. And I feel enormously privileged to have been chosen to do this job, and I want to do it to my utmost. And so I do work long hours if you include, and I think you perhaps should include in this the evenings when you go out to dinners, make speeches and so on. I mean a lot of it's fun as well, but it is also quite hard work when you're making a speech at ten o'clock at night when you've started work at eight o'clock in the morning. So a desert island is exactly what's needed at a rather restless person, and I think that I would miss this restless life. Should we have your last record? So far we've had no Mozart, and that is a horrible omission. One fine day we're all going to have to go, and I can imagine no better way to go than to Mozart's Requiem. And I've chosen from that the Die's Iré, the Day of Wroth.

Presenter34:27

The D A Zere from Mozart's Requiem, with the Academy and Chorus of St. Martin in the Fields, conducted by Sir Neville Mariner. If you could only take one of those records, Barbara, which one would it be? I would take Unballo in Maskera. It's such a tremendously layered opera, and I hope I'd be allowed to have the whole opera. What about your book?

Presenter34:45

My book would be Stephen Runciman, History of the Crusades. I've always been enormously interested in that period of history, and if I hadn't been a lawyer I think I would have been, or liked to have tried to be, a historian.

Presenter34:57

And I find that a particularly interesting period because it's

Presenter35:01

People who've moved into alien territory. Now, you can perhaps draw some conclusions from that. But I think it.

Presenter35:08

An extraordinary achievement for people to leave their own country and go off for years on end to a completely different place, different climate, and to have led the most incredible lives when they went there. And what about your luxury? Well, my relaxation is playing tennis, and I try to play a lot of tennis, but I don't play nearly enough. So I would like to have, please, a tennis court with a practice wall and a net, unlimited supply of balls, a ball machine, and lots of rackets. And I hope that I would come back fit and probably tanned and perhaps with a topspin backhand which I've never managed to achieve hitherto.

Presenter35:49

Barbara Mills, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Barbara Mills QC36:01

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.