Christabel Bielenberg

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety two, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:31

My Castaway this week is an author. She came to writing late in life, but the book she published became a bestseller and was made into a television series. Called The Past is Myself, it tells the story of how she, a well born Englishwoman, married a German lawyer and went to live in Berlin as Hitler came to power. They and their friends watched with horror the rise of National Socialism and suffered at the hands of the Third Reich. Now, eighty three, she's lived for the past forty three years with her husband and children in Ireland, the story of which forms the basis of her latest book. She is Christabel

Presenter1:08

You wrote your first book, Christabel, when you were nearly sixty, and your second when you were eighty. D do you actually enjoy writing, or did you almost write out of a sense of duty, that yours was a story that had to be told?

Christabel Bielenberg1:21

No, if I am to be honest, I wrote out of a sense of duty. I knew there was a missing book.

Christabel Bielenberg1:27

And that was a book which told that there were other Germans besides those that were.

Christabel Bielenberg1:32

clapping their arms and Heil Hitlering all over the place. And when I arrived back in England I realized there was very few people who realized who understood that there was another Germany.

Christabel Bielenberg1:45

and frankly I felt it was my duty.

Christabel Bielenberg1:48

to do something about it if I could. I read every German newspaper from nineteen thirty three onwards because there were certain questions that I wanted answered. What did we know about the Jews? What did we know? W was there anything in the media which could have hinted at what was really Going on.

Presenter2:08

But you discovered that that the knowledge wasn't there, that in fact there was a it was a muzzle press, obviously.

Christabel Bielenberg2:14

It was most definitely a muzzled press, because we I remember when I heard the first news after the end of the war.

Christabel Bielenberg2:22

about the British troops visiting concentration camps with just piles of skeletons.

Christabel Bielenberg2:28

And what have you?

Christabel Bielenberg2:30

I simply didn't believe it. I said Oh dear, the war, I suppose, has altered England too. It's like Goebbels all over again. I should have known.

Christabel Bielenberg2:40

I mean, I if anybody should uh knew, I should have been one of those people knowing, because my husband was in the opposition to Hitler at the time.

Christabel Bielenberg2:49

that there was mass extermination.

Christabel Bielenberg2:53

Never, never.

Christabel Bielenberg2:55

entered our minds. I think it's too

Christabel Bielenberg2:58

Terrible a thought to think about, really.

Presenter3:01

Let's go back to the the very beginning. You actually went to Germany and fell in love with a German purely by chance, really, didn't you?

Christabel Bielenberg3:09

Pure chance, yes. I was supposed to be a singer, I wasn't supposed to be a writer at all. I intended to be the g greatest dramatic soprano of all time, having been

Christabel Bielenberg3:21

Well, we were very friendly with John McCormack, who's a great singer in Ireland, and having

Christabel Bielenberg3:26

Been really encouraged by him, we used to sing with him, his daughter, his son.

Christabel Bielenberg3:32

And myself and he and we he used to sing an opera by heart, more or less, and we used to join in and

Christabel Bielenberg3:38

And I always wanted to sing. From the from childhood onwards, I always wanted to sing.

Presenter3:44

And all your eight desert island discs, in fact, have have the singing voice, didn't they?

Christabel Bielenberg3:48

Yes, I hope that nobody'll think I'm really sort of being slightly unimaginative about that. But for me the singing voice

Christabel Bielenberg3:56

Has played an enormous role all my life. So what's your first record then?

Presenter4:01

Yeah.

Christabel Bielenberg4:02

Well, my first record, seeing that it was John who really started me off on

Christabel Bielenberg4:09

What was never a career, but just the same a love of my life.

Christabel Bielenberg4:13

I don't know which to choose, but I chose in the end his wife's favourite song that he sang, which was I Hear You Calling Me.

Speaker 44:21

I hear you calling me.

Speaker 44:33

Called me when a woman had a bail her life.

Christabel Bielenberg4:34

It went up a home how to bear the hollow

Speaker 44:39

Before I went from you in a small night.

Christabel Bielenberg4:39

Oh, I'm with

Presenter4:44

Oh no.

Christabel Bielenberg4:44

Uh

Speaker 44:45

I need.

Speaker 44:49

Holy man.

Presenter4:52

John McCormack singing I Hear You Calling, accompanied by Edwin Schneider. Well, now you met Christabel Bielenberg and fell in love with Peter Bielenberg, a young Hamburg lawyer.

Presenter5:03

What was it you fell for? Because presumably he was quite different from any young man you'd ever met before.

Christabel Bielenberg5:08

My memory of well the first time we met was that that I'd never danced before in my life, uh the way it should be, and he was a really beautiful dancer, and incidentally very good looking.

Presenter5:22

Which helps. Which helps, exactly. But before all that, I'm sure you'd had lots of English suitors. You'd done the season as a deb and so on. Presumably you'd had a a a very conventional childhood, a a a very wealthy one, I think, very wealthy background.

Christabel Bielenberg5:37

A very happy one, and I think this is something that I always can thank my parents for, because their own marriage was a very happy one.

Christabel Bielenberg5:48

And I think that is so necessary because it gives you a sense of security.

Christabel Bielenberg5:55

which I only realized later in life.

Christabel Bielenberg5:58

How useful it was to me, how m confidence and security.

Presenter6:03

You were also, I think, very bright. You were offered a place at Oxford, weren't you?

Christabel Bielenberg6:07

Yes, I was. I got s much to my surprise and everybody's surprise, I got a scholarship to Oxford, and English was my language, so in some kind of way I suppose becoming a writer, not a singer.

Christabel Bielenberg6:19

Um I returned to something that I was able to do, yes. I don't mind if anybody tells me, dear, that I can't cook and I can't do this and I can't do that.

Christabel Bielenberg6:28

But if somebody tells me I can't write English, I get very cross.

Christabel Bielenberg6:33

But you didn't go to Oxford, you went to Hamburg for a second. And I said w I decided

Presenter6:35

So I did.

Christabel Bielenberg6:39

Well, it all came together with John McCormack and everybody, and I decided I was fed up with books and learning, and I didn't want to. And so I set off

Christabel Bielenberg6:51

For Hamburg

Presenter6:51

Uh

Christabel Bielenberg6:52

You may

Presenter6:52

Yet, Peter, your parents were opposed to the match, weren't they? Well, they were opposed to your marrying him.

Christabel Bielenberg6:59

Well, you see, it was a very uh strange time. It was the beginning of the Hitler period.

Christabel Bielenberg7:05

But certainly my father was certain there was going to be a war.

Christabel Bielenberg7:09

And I suppose to see me going off to Germany.

Christabel Bielenberg7:12

And

Christabel Bielenberg7:14

Getting engaged and married to a German.

Christabel Bielenberg7:17

must have been very hard on them. But my husband always said that they behaved marvellously.

Presenter7:19

But my husband

Presenter7:22

True hole

Christabel Bielenberg7:23

But

Presenter7:23

did they try to dissuade you? Yeah.

Christabel Bielenberg7:24

From marrying him.

Christabel Bielenberg7:26

Well, when we approached Maribyn Registry Office, where we were going to get married, my father stopped the car.

Christabel Bielenberg7:34

and said, Do you really want to go on with it?

Christabel Bielenberg7:37

And I said, well, yes, there I was. I could even see the guests and all the people waiting, and my poor husband standing there.

Christabel Bielenberg7:44

And future husband, and he said, Well, if you don't, I've got two tickets for the Queen Mary. We can leave for the States this afternoon, he said, and then I think that was the only time that he saw saw that I saw how panic-stricken he was about it. Shall we have your second record there? Well, my second record is Der Doppelgenger, which is sung by Lotta Lehmann.

Christabel Bielenberg8:09

who was one of the pupils of the teacher.

Christabel Bielenberg8:13

that I was with in Hamburg,

Christabel Bielenberg8:16

and I can well remember us pupils sitting there,

Christabel Bielenberg8:20

and this lovely bombastic lady relic with this marvellous voice and one particular time, when it was summer, the windows were open,

Christabel Bielenberg8:31

We looked out the window, and there was the crowd standing. The tram had stopped in the street going by.

Christabel Bielenberg8:37

and everybody was just standing entranced.

Christabel Bielenberg8:40

She herself was very practical, and when she'd finished she'd say, Well, now, what about a bite of lunch?

Christabel Bielenberg8:48

I always remember that. We used to think of gosh.

Speaker 48:52

Oh ton of the sword.

Speaker 49:01

Oh came

Speaker 49:20

Tea o I

Speaker 49:25

How they knew

Speaker 49:30

Water.

Presenter9:44

Lotte Lehmann singing Schubert's Der Doppelganger, and then she went to lunch.

Christabel Bielenberg9:49

BAAP

Presenter9:49

And she went to the

Christabel Bielenberg9:50

Yeah.

Presenter9:50

So there you were in Germany in 1934 as Hitler came to power.

Presenter9:57

Did you believe that he would convince so many people? Could you see that that could happen, or did you simply think that it was something not very nice, rather a nasty business that would go away in the end?

Christabel Bielenberg10:08

I think that they thought they'd had so many governments beforehand which had changed every every year. They had forty four different political parties, if one could believe it, in the Weimar Republic.

Christabel Bielenberg10:19

And they'd changed and swapped, and I don't think anybody realized.

Christabel Bielenberg10:24

That Hitler was there to stay. I also, if you talk to my husband, he said.

Christabel Bielenberg10:30

It never entered his mind. I mean, he was such a for him a ridiculous figure.

Christabel Bielenberg10:35

And there was a certain sort of

Christabel Bielenberg10:37

Atmosphere almost of snobbism that you couldn't.

Christabel Bielenberg10:41

And I can remember I was learning German in a Nazi family.

Christabel Bielenberg10:45

At the time, in the early days before Hitler Guinea, and took Peter to one of Hitler's things because when we were sort of

Christabel Bielenberg10:53

walking out, or whatever you call it. And I remember him marching me out and saying very firmly, Now listen, Chris, you may think we Germans are political fools, but we're never going to fall for that clown. And that was three or four months before he came to power.

Presenter11:13

Why do you think people did fall for it?

Christabel Bielenberg11:17

I think that he was extremely clever. He provided them with work. In very short time he got rid of seven million unemployed.

Christabel Bielenberg11:26

They certainly were better off in the first two years of Hitler's reign. And I think the first big fright came when the um

Christabel Bielenberg11:39

When he started burning the synagogues and things like that. And I was in Hamburg at the time, I remember very well.

Christabel Bielenberg11:46

And the people there was no protest. There was they were awfully embarrassed, most people. They weren't enthusiastic.

Speaker 411:53

Yeah.

Christabel Bielenberg11:53

They were sort of the they had broken the windows of Jewish shops and so on. Things were lying all over the pavement, and they sort of

Christabel Bielenberg12:02

Moved them aside. Nobody stole or did anything like that. There was no looting.

Christabel Bielenberg12:07

They just walked around, moved these things off the pavement.

Presenter12:10

When did when did it all start to impinge on your life? I mean, obviously, in your household where you and your husband lived, a lot of anti Nazi anti Nazis gathered and talked and there were lengthy conversations. But when did it c cease to be an intellectual debate? And when did it actually impinge on your lives in a in a real sense?

Christabel Bielenberg12:29

Well, it impinged on on on your life, I think one could say, always. You were always in danger. Even my little boy going to school if you listened to the foreign radio, for instance, that was um death penalty. I mean, you didn't speak freely with anybody except real friends. And uh it was the duty, if you went to a party, of the host, to say, There's two people here that I don't know very well.

Christabel Bielenberg12:55

And then the conversation was never political.

Christabel Bielenberg12:58

I think one got to the stage one knew almost instinctively who was a Nazi and who was not.

Presenter13:05

Shall we have your third record?

Christabel Bielenberg13:07

I've chosen Paul Robeson's singing Deep River, which I find a wonderful negro spiritual, and it goes back, of course, to the twenties, when he was surely at the time one of the great voices of his day, to my mind.

Speaker 413:29

My home is all but your daughter.

Speaker 413:40

Keep river Lord.

Speaker 413:48

I want to cross over.

Presenter13:54

Paul Robeson singing Deep River.

Presenter13:57

So by the time war broke out you had two small boys, and your house was regularly the scene of anti Nazi conversations. That must have been dangerous enough, but you did something else which was incredibly dangerous. You you hid a Jewish couple in your cellar, didn't you?

Christabel Bielenberg14:14

Yes, I did.

Christabel Bielenberg14:16

You see, there was we had

Christabel Bielenberg14:18

Half Jewish friends they were called Mischlings.

Christabel Bielenberg14:22

And we had half Jewish friends and they used to particularly one used to collect food coupons for the Jews, who but then, when this happened, they were wearing stars.

Christabel Bielenberg14:34

And uh one day she came to me and said that she had a couple who'd taken off their stars.

Christabel Bielenberg14:41

and they'd been staying with a Catholic priest.

Christabel Bielenberg14:45

But his loc his um community had been m sort of making murmurs that there were strange people in his house and so forth and so on. And could I

Christabel Bielenberg14:56

put the could I possibly house them for a bit? Peter was away, I was alone, but we had a very nice friend and I went to him.

Christabel Bielenberg15:05

And he said, No, under no circumstances can you do it. Chris, you're British.

Christabel Bielenberg15:11

You got your children?

Christabel Bielenberg15:13

You just can't do it.

Christabel Bielenberg15:15

And I had planned with the woman that we would meet after the l blackout we'd meet on the road after the blackout. And I'll never forget it. I went to the blackout in the blackout, and a voice said to me

Christabel Bielenberg15:29

Haumesichen Schlossen, Gniede Frau, which means have you decided?

Christabel Bielenberg15:34

I couldn't say no.

Christabel Bielenberg15:36

So

Christabel Bielenberg15:37

I suppose I made a compromise in one way and I said I have decided, yes, and that is that um I can do it for a short time at least.

Christabel Bielenberg15:47

So the wife moved in, a nice hairdresser dyed her hair blonde.

Christabel Bielenberg15:53

And she moved in, and he moved into the cellar.

Christabel Bielenberg15:56

But it was extremely difficult because the children were always wanting to go into the cellar, and I had to stop them going. I had to sack

Christabel Bielenberg16:05

Immediately I'll send on holiday a nice girl who is helping me out in the house.

Christabel Bielenberg16:09

And then one day Nicky said, I don't know what's going on. I've always been able to do the central heating. Why can't I go down to the cellar?

Christabel Bielenberg16:16

And it it was obviously getting talked about.

Christabel Bielenberg16:19

And I suppose they must have heard some of these things being said.

Christabel Bielenberg16:25

Because one night

Christabel Bielenberg16:27

They just disappeared, and I heard afterwards from this very good friend, who was half Jewish.

Christabel Bielenberg16:33

or quarter juice.

Christabel Bielenberg16:35

That, um

Christabel Bielenberg16:36

They had been caught.

Christabel Bielenberg16:39

Buying is buying a ticket.

Christabel Bielenberg16:41

To try at the station.

Christabel Bielenberg16:44

They had been discovered.

Presenter16:47

It was after that that that um

Presenter16:49

You and your boys went off to the Black Forest, to the to the country where really you you spent the rest of the war. Was it was it in its way a a rural idyl, or did it have huge drawbacks?

Christabel Bielenberg17:02

I sort of mixed myself in with the village life. I don't say it was always sometimes I used to think, Oh dear, my life's really just going by and

Christabel Bielenberg17:12

I was still quite young in those days.

Christabel Bielenberg17:14

And I thought, goodness me, that it's it was a lonely business, and I Peter Peter was aware he couldn't get there hardly at all. And so but I had the children there, and they were wonderful with

Christabel Bielenberg17:28

the children, and never gave us away at the end of the war.

Christabel Bielenberg17:31

Never, and at the end of the war Peter was hiding in the Black Forest for three months.

Christabel Bielenberg17:36

But they never, never gave us away.

Christabel Bielenberg17:39

And they knew very, very well he was hiding, because we learned of it afterwards when the French arrived.

Presenter17:45

Record number four.

Christabel Bielenberg17:46

Well, my fourth record would be Alad Jones.

Christabel Bielenberg17:50

Singing O for the wings of a dove

Christabel Bielenberg17:54

And this means something very special to me, because I have two boys who are soloists in their prep schools.

Christabel Bielenberg18:01

and I have to say I've heard one of my own boys sing it, not unlike Aladd Jones.

Christabel Bielenberg18:08

And when he struck that high note I burst into tears. He dropped on he was able to drop on it. Beautiful for me.

Speaker 418:18

Oh, for the winds, for the winds of the world.

Speaker 418:44

In the wild when He spilled me one day.

Speaker 419:03

If the world is friendly.

Presenter19:17

That was Aladd Jones singing part of O for the Wings of a Dove from Mendelssohn's Hear My Prayer.

Speaker 419:18

I mean

Presenter19:23

Your husband then, meanwhile, you were in the Black Forest. He was suspected of complicity in the July forty four plot to kill Hitler, and he was ultimately sent to Ravensbruck concentration camp.

Presenter19:36

How involved was he, in fact? What part had he played?

Christabel Bielenberg19:40

Well, our very great friend was Adam.

Christabel Bielenberg19:42

From Trot he knew all about the plot that was going to happen.

Christabel Bielenberg19:46

And he had a telegram.

Christabel Bielenberg19:48

From

Christabel Bielenberg19:50

Or telemessage from Trot.

Christabel Bielenberg19:52

Two or three days before thee.

Christabel Bielenberg19:54

uh for the bomb plot for the twentieth of July saying hope to see you in Berlin soon or something.

Speaker 420:00

Yeah.

Christabel Bielenberg20:00

And when Arlen von Trot was one of the first people to be arrested.

Christabel Bielenberg20:05

And hanged.

Christabel Bielenberg20:08

The secretary.

Christabel Bielenberg20:09

had nothing better to do.

Christabel Bielenberg20:11

than to go to the guest depot and say I do know that my boss here.

Christabel Bielenberg20:16

had a telegram from him two or three days before the date.

Christabel Bielenberg20:21

Hardly believe it, can you?

Presenter20:22

and it was on the basis of that that he was arrested.

Christabel Bielenberg20:25

and he was arrested almost

Christabel Bielenberg20:27

Uh I think the same day. Hm.

Presenter20:31

Adam Fontrotte, as you said, was hanged, and others. Why do you think your husband wasn't? How did he escape death?

Christabel Bielenberg20:40

Well, he always says, which is really very sweet, I think, because I never felt so at the time, it seemed to be a very natural thing to do.

Christabel Bielenberg20:48

That I felt I never, then I suddenly began to feel very, very British. I don't know why, but I just felt they're not going to these.

Christabel Bielenberg20:57

Blah something Germans are not going to these sort of things on me. I rang the Gestapo.

Christabel Bielenberg21:04

and asked to be interviewed.

Christabel Bielenberg21:06

And I went to the um headquarters, Gestapo headquarters. Just before I was called, a lovely old man, an awfully nice old man, would who was dictating in front of me something to a rotten woman and

Christabel Bielenberg21:20

And uh

Christabel Bielenberg21:22

She smacked his face while enduring the interrogation.

Christabel Bielenberg21:26

And I don't think

Christabel Bielenberg21:29

so that you can entertain two very strong emotions at the same time.

Christabel Bielenberg21:35

and instead of being

Christabel Bielenberg21:37

really scared out of my wits. I mean, my knees were knocking when I went up the tri up the stairs. But having seen that, I suddenly became lividly angry. I think I could have murdered that woman. I really I promise you, I think I could have

Christabel Bielenberg21:52

And at that moment they called for Dr. Bjon Bash Pitep.

Christabel Bielenberg21:56

And so up got for Doctor Bienberg and went

Christabel Bielenberg21:59

into the interrogation.

Christabel Bielenberg22:03

And I was so angry the lights were so they had an endless searchlight straight on your face and in the door that and a voice said Name is a bit of Platz take take a seat.

Christabel Bielenberg22:16

And I said, How do you expect me to take a seat when I can't see anything? Turn off those lights. I was so angry and he turned them off.

Christabel Bielenberg22:23

And I said thank you, and then I sat down.

Christabel Bielenberg22:25

And then I started off, and of course I knew a little bit what I was going to do, and I was going to promise this fellow not only proved to him how unpolitical we were, but also um

Christabel Bielenberg22:36

Promise him that I might be able to help him.

Christabel Bielenberg22:39

After the war he knew the war was coming to an end.

Christabel Bielenberg22:43

So is it

Presenter22:43

Yeah.

Christabel Bielenberg22:43

Smaller

Presenter22:43

But

Christabel Bielenberg22:44

Under bribery went on.

Christabel Bielenberg22:47

And it worked. Once he'd got out of the camp, nothing was going to stop him coming to the Black Forest.

Presenter22:47

That's it.

Presenter22:55

Number five.

Christabel Bielenberg22:56

Well, my fifth choice.

Christabel Bielenberg22:58

is De Hirt of Demfelsen, sung by Elizabeth Schruman. This takes us back again to Hamburg.

Christabel Bielenberg23:07

When

Christabel Bielenberg23:08

My ambition to become the greatest dramatic soprano of all time was still flourishing, and she used to come to rehearse for her operas, and I'd just love to hear her singing again.

Speaker 423:23

Oh it holy.

Speaker 423:28

It's a friend of mine.

Speaker 423:34

Instead of time.

Speaker 423:56

And oh you

Presenter24:07

Yeah.

Speaker 424:09

Uh

Presenter24:16

Schubert's Der Heert auftim Felsen, sung by Elizabeth Schumann.

Presenter24:20

Eventually the the strain of those well, fifteen years really be before the war and then the war years themselves, the strain caught up with you eventually, and you were quite ill, weren't you?

Presenter24:30

Yeah.

Christabel Bielenberg24:30

I was, yes, when we when I got back to England.

Christabel Bielenberg24:33

Well, first of all, my husband had a frightful motor accident almo I mean, he was unconscious for eight days.

Christabel Bielenberg24:41

And then I began to break up, I'm afraid.

Presenter24:43

Right.

Christabel Bielenberg24:44

Yeah.

Presenter24:45

Is that why you decided in the end to make a completely new start? Because together you decided to to get a book on teach yourself farming and set up a farm in Ireland? I mean

Speaker 324:52

A fab in a

Christabel Bielenberg24:53

Uh

Presenter24:54

Uh was that in a way um a way of saving your marriage, perhaps, your whole relationship? You had to begin totally afresh?

Christabel Bielenberg25:01

Yes, I think if I'm going to be honest.

Christabel Bielenberg25:05

It might have been. I could not go back to Germany after the war. At the same time I didn't think it fair.

Christabel Bielenberg25:11

to ask my husband to come to England, because England was very anti-German at the time. So we got together on it ultimately. I think partly on my health and and various things. Anyway, we got together on it and decided, why not Ireland? My father's Anglo Irish, I'd loved Ireland, let's try it out, something quite new. And you've been there ever since? And we've been there ever since. We should have your next record there.

Presenter25:36

Yeah.

Christabel Bielenberg25:37

Well, the next record I've chosen is very, very Irish.

Christabel Bielenberg25:42

Enya

Christabel Bielenberg25:43

who, to my mind, is a wonderful voice. She lives in Donegal, she won't move from Donegal.

Christabel Bielenberg25:50

She just sits and composes many of these songs, and the title of this one is

Christabel Bielenberg25:57

Which perhaps has been a theme going through our talk together.

Christabel Bielenberg26:03

How can I keep from singing?

Speaker 426:06

My life goes on in endless

Speaker 426:14

Above all cement issue.

Speaker 426:21

In the realtor of forefinger.

Speaker 426:28

And the heart hails a new creation.

Presenter26:36

Enya and How Can I Keep from Singing? Your story, Christabel, makes it very obvious, if I may say, that you're very resourceful and and very stubborn, I suppose not to say bloody-minded, I suppose, in many ways. All of which means that that you will make a very good a fine castaway. Does the idea of being left on your own on a desert island appeal at all?

Christabel Bielenberg26:56

Well, it's one of those questions. My husband was in.

Christabel Bielenberg27:01

Solitary confinement for months on end

Christabel Bielenberg27:05

and survived that, and many people now

Christabel Bielenberg27:08

particularly the hostages they've been on their own.

Christabel Bielenberg27:12

And

Christabel Bielenberg27:13

I feel, quite frankly, that I would cope.

Christabel Bielenberg27:16

I don't know that I wouldn't I used to do a lot of yoga when I was young.

Christabel Bielenberg27:21

Might become

Presenter27:21

Very queer.

Presenter27:23

I know that uh your links with with Germany to day are still very strong, and you go there a lot, don't you? What what is your feeling? What do you and your husband and friends

Presenter27:34

feel about the the recent uh demonstrations there against refugees and the the desecration of a synagogue or the attacks on Jewish monuments? What do you what do you feel? Does it bring back that awful fear that you felt back in the thirties?

Christabel Bielenberg27:52

Yes. I think they still have the past which doesn't leave them alone, anybody of that generation. And they decided to be enormously generous.

Christabel Bielenberg28:03

And uh I think they've just overdone it, quite frankly.

Christabel Bielenberg28:07

They've been very comfortable after the war, West Germany.

Christabel Bielenberg28:11

The Easterners feel that they are the only ones who really lost the war.

Christabel Bielenberg28:15

Because they

Christabel Bielenberg28:17

The Westerners were very soon on top, and they called them vesses and osses.

Christabel Bielenberg28:23

And the vesses were the comfy ones, and now they're suddenly having to face up.

Christabel Bielenberg28:28

too somehow absorbing.

Christabel Bielenberg28:31

East Germany, which is in a completely collapsed state, is going to cost them the earth.

Christabel Bielenberg28:36

And I think that is going to be very difficult for them. We should have your next record. Well, for my seventh record.

Christabel Bielenberg28:43

I'd love to hear the Ave Maria.

Christabel Bielenberg28:46

Sung by Kiri Takanoa. I think it's a wonderful record.

Christabel Bielenberg28:51

And of course one has to remember that all the other chosen ones, like Lotta Lehmann and Elizabeth Schumann.

Christabel Bielenberg28:57

is very old fashioned recording, whereas this recording gives a full power to Kiri De Canoa's voice and it's wonderful singing to my point from my point of view.

Speaker 429:26

Oh till

Speaker 429:33

Oh lead us to.

Presenter30:06

Kiritakano is singing part of the Bach Guno Ave Maria with the Utah Symphony Orchestra conducted by Julius Ruddell.

Presenter30:14

You're eighty three years old, Christabel Bielenberg, as I keep reminding you. You've had at least three different lives as an English Rose and debutante, a German mother, an anti Nazi, and an Irish farmer's wife.

Presenter30:27

It's traditional really, I suppose, in in the light of such wide experience, to um to ask people like you for some kind of wisdom, some kind of truth of life that you've learned. Are there any

Presenter30:39

There must be important lessons that you feel you can draw from your experiences.

Christabel Bielenberg30:44

I think to me

Christabel Bielenberg30:47

has been

Christabel Bielenberg30:48

The greatest importance of my life has been my family.

Christabel Bielenberg30:53

Uh

Christabel Bielenberg30:54

I have a wonderful family.

Christabel Bielenberg30:56

I think a united family is something unbelievably.

Christabel Bielenberg31:02

One can long for it and very seldom it very seldom happens.

Christabel Bielenberg31:07

And

Christabel Bielenberg31:09

My husband always says I'm rather like a broody hen, a sort of a sort of natural matriarch that sits there and does

Christabel Bielenberg31:16

Gets them all under my wing. I don't know really what I've learned.

Christabel Bielenberg31:21

Exactly that but

Christabel Bielenberg31:23

Harmony and a and a f happy family. There's going to be twenty eight of us for this Christmas.

Christabel Bielenberg31:30

is something that I've

Christabel Bielenberg31:33

hoped that I've somehow succeeded in reaching on, in arriving at.

Presenter31:39

Last record.

Christabel Bielenberg31:40

My last record.

Christabel Bielenberg31:43

is the duet.

Christabel Bielenberg31:45

From Bizets the Pearl Fishers.

Christabel Bielenberg31:47

Sung by Luciano Pavarotti and Nicolai Georoff. And I find them singing so beautifully together that I thought why not end on there.

Speaker 432:03

Yeah.

Speaker 432:08

Peace for us.

Speaker 432:16

It's hella

Speaker 432:33

Please go.

Speaker 432:37

Ah.

Speaker 432:45

It's hard to do.

Presenter32:59

Luciano Pavarotti and Nikolai Giaorov singing part of the duet Orphant du Tin Plassin from Bizet's The Pearlfishers, played by the National Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Robin Stapleton.

Presenter33:10

Well, now, which is your favourite of the eight, Christabel?

Christabel Bielenberg33:13

I love them all so much that it's very difficult one to say.

Christabel Bielenberg33:18

But I actually think that I would choose

Christabel Bielenberg33:21

Er Paul Robeson's Deep River.

Presenter33:24

And what about your book, as well as the Bible and Shakespeare?

Christabel Bielenberg33:28

My brother was a prisoner of war.

Christabel Bielenberg33:30

and he took one book with him which was which he had, luckily, when he was caught.

Christabel Bielenberg33:36

In his deep

Christabel Bielenberg33:37

And it was war and peace, so that he had four years with nothing else but war and peace. And he always said, Chris, if you ever want to be stuck with a book for years on end,

Christabel Bielenberg33:49

War and Peace

Presenter33:50

And what about your luxury?

Christabel Bielenberg33:53

Well, dear, here I'm going to realate, seeing that I'm eighty three years of age, I think.

Christabel Bielenberg34:01

I might bend the rules. I'd take my husband. But you can't. No, you really can't.

Presenter34:07

Is it you?

Christabel Bielenberg34:11

Well well, I think I'd take a very comfortable chair.

Christabel Bielenberg34:17

on which I could sit very comfortably.

Presenter34:20

A comfortable chair it is. Christabel Bielenberg, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 334:33

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.