Michael Grade

Speaker 40:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 40:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety two, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:28

My castaway this week is a television executive. With his bright braces and large cigar, he's the nearest thing we have to the popular image of a T V mogul. That's hardly surprising. He's a member of a famous Shobiz dynasty and grew up in the atmosphere of London's West End. But it was not a usual childhood. His mother left him when he was three, and he was raised by his paternal grandmother.

Presenter0:52

He's been a journalist on The Daily Mirror, a theatrical agent, a Hollywood producer, and the controller of BBC One. He's now the chief executive of Channel Four. He is Michael Grade.

Presenter1:03

But apparently, Michael, you've never made a television programme in your life. Can this be true?

Michael Grade1:07

I can't claim to have. No, I've sort of executive produced a few things, a big mini series in America, but that's about all. My skills are entrepreneurial really, and I'm sort of an imposario rather than a coalface person.

Presenter1:18

Because you went in at uh at quite a high level as head of entertainment at London Weekend about twenty years ago, didn't you?

Michael Grade1:24

Yes, and uh it was a tough start and I had to relearn everything. I thought television was like the theater and it it it was completely the opposite.

Presenter1:32

But have you missed that sort of apprenticeship? I mean, have there been times when you've been exec producing, as you say, programmes and thought, My God, I wish I could get my hands on that and do it how I see it?

Michael Grade1:42

No, because I'm able to maintain always the the point of view of a viewer rather than a as a professional.

Presenter1:49

But if you were able to get your hands on a programme, what kind of programme would you like to have produced?

Michael Grade1:54

Oh, I'd like to have been a sports producer or a music producer.

Presenter1:57

or a light entertainment producer of some kind.

Michael Grade1:59

I was the worst head of light entertainment LWT ever had when I was there, so uh no, I I don't think that was for me.

Presenter2:05

You went in, as I said, at at at quite a a high level. I mean, you're a good example, really, of the old adage, it's it's who you know, because you walked straight into Fleet Street, aged seventeen, didn't you, just because it was decided that young Michael should go into journalism.

Michael Grade2:19

No, it's uh my dad uh I went to see my late father uh in his office and I said, Oh, I've I've left school, dad He said, I suppose you're going to come in the business I said, No, not I don't really want to, I'd rather do something on my own.

Michael Grade2:31

He said, Well, what do you want to do? I said, I have no idea. He said, Well, let me think of something. And he phoned me a few hours later. He said,

Michael Grade2:37

How'd you like to be a scriptwriter? I said, Well, that sounds all right, you know.

Michael Grade2:40

He said, No, I don't think so. He ran back to me and said, He said, Would you like to be a sports writer? Ah I said, Now now you're talking He said, Give me ten minutes. He rang back and sent me off for an interview at the Daily Mirror.

Presenter2:50

He'd wrung up his friend Hugh Cudlip who happened to run the thing.

Michael Grade2:50

He dwelt.

Michael Grade2:53

Yes, uh the Mirror Group were shareholders in ATV and the family were involved in ATV television at that time. Uh and through influence uh I got a ten pound a week job.

Michael Grade3:03

as a dog's body at the day mere sportsman.

Presenter3:05

Ten pounds a week, but you were driven there by a chauffeur in the family roles.

Michael Grade3:08

Well, it's actually a Bentley. My father didn't trust me to get there on time. Uh he said, I know you. He said, You'll oversleep. He said, So I'm sending Arthur and the Bentley. And I was saluted in and saluted out of the mirror.

Presenter3:19

Well, obviously, uh, you know, those sorts of doors were opened for you by by the family. But is it more than that? Has

Presenter3:27

Is being a grade being a Winogradski?

Presenter3:31

Really something very special for you.

Michael Grade3:33

Yes, very much. I'm very proud of the family and the achievements of the family. I think that's what motivates me. I think uh with three brothers, my father and Lou and Bernie, as successful as they are and have been, you do feel driven to follow in their footsteps. Uh and anything less, in my terms, would be failure. That's what drives me really.

Presenter3:52

Mediocrity is unacceptable.

Michael Grade3:54

Absolutely, yes, it would be miserable.

Presenter3:57

I want to talk more about that in a minute, but tell me about your eight records. Are they inspirations or are they reflections of mood or are they simply memories?

Michael Grade4:06

It was very easy to get the list down to the last thirty nine. It was getting it down to eight was difficult. I decided in the end that the only criteria for any of them was what could I not bear never to hear again, basically. And uh some are evocative and some are just there for

Michael Grade4:22

for their sheer pleasure.

Presenter4:24

And the first one is

Michael Grade4:26

Well, this is evocative. This is uh my first glimpse of a great star when I was a kid. Uh I strolled into the Metropolitan Musical and Eightway Road and caught sight probably m towards the end of his career.

Michael Grade4:38

of the first great star that I ever saw. That was Max Miller. Probably the greatest front cloth comic that ever lived, so they say. Never translated to television or film, but I did catch a glimpse of him at the Met and I've never felt such excitement. And it made it set something for me the rest of my life. Just really

Michael Grade4:55

Defining staff quality, he had it.

Speaker 14:58

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much. So here we go with the first song, a little song entitled, Last Night I Was in the Mood, Tonight I Must Get Some Sleep.

Speaker 15:11

When the nights get nice and dark, I always go in the park, I only come there for a lark, passing the time away. I hear lovers bill and coo, You'd be surprised if I told you All the naughty things they do while passing the time away.

Presenter5:28

Max Miller from Max at the Met, the Metropolitan Music Hall, in the Edgware Road. But it was the London Palladium, really, that was kind of second home for you as a boy, wasn't it, Michael?

Michael Grade5:36

Yes, when I was not at boarding school, uh the great thing in the holidays was to go to a first night, and there was a first night every week at the London Palladium in those days, and my my dad and Lou, my uncle, were booking most of the bills at the palladium in those days, and it was a new star coming in from America, and an opening night every Monday night. It was a thrill.

Presenter5:53

Did you always sit, you and the family, in the same seats for the show? Were you a kind of royal party?

Michael Grade5:58

Well it was yes, it was rows C, ten, eleven, twelve and thirteen basically with Leslie's seats.

Presenter6:04

And do you still get the same buzz? I mean, I've seen you there uh when television's been putting on Royal Variety performances. Do you still get the same buzz? Does it still feel like home?

Michael Grade6:13

Oh, the Palladium certainly does, yes. It's part of my childhood. It's it's it's almost a shrine, really.

Presenter6:19

But as a small boy, as you say, you were sent off to boarding school in in Bogna Regis, um where you were known as a bit of a wag. Were were you sort of imitating the comics you'd seen on stage?

Michael Grade6:28

Yes, I did some very, very neat impressions. I could do Julan Warris, I seem to remember, Al Jolson, can't remember who else.

Presenter6:36

But why did you need to make boys laugh? Was it the classic thing that that otherwise they'd have duffed you up?

Michael Grade6:42

Uh yes, I wasn't particularly physically strong. I was okay at sport, I was passionate about sport, but uh wasn't in any of the first eleven. I think I was the first fifteen touch judge, the first eleven linesman and the first eleven cricket scorer. That was the only way I could get on the coach and get lemons at half time and you were a little chap. I wasn't particularly little, I was puny, very puny, yes.

Speaker 46:58

Yeah.

Presenter6:58

Yeah.

Presenter7:03

But th the threat of being duffed up, was that anything to do with being Jewish too?

Michael Grade7:07

That came later but uh I never experienced that at my prep school. But when I got to public school when I was thirteen I went to Stowe.

Michael Grade7:16

the public school was chosen for me and I sort of sailed in on sort of very good uh academic results and was quite shocked when I got there really at the degree of anti Semitism and bullying that went on there.

Presenter7:28

What form did it take?

Michael Grade7:29

There was an element I wouldn't say the whole school was rife, but there was an element who would goad you and insult you and you'd end up in fights, you know.

Presenter7:36

Hmm.

Michael Grade7:36

That was inevitable.

Presenter7:37

Is that why you left when you were seventeen?

Michael Grade7:40

Well, I left Stowe after a year. I I ran with dad and said, Look, this is this is intolerable. I can't take this. I really want to come home and go to day school, which I did, and I was very happy at uh at St Dunstan's College in South London. But I'd sort of I'd lost my appetite for school really, and left school when I was seventeen, didn't want to do any more studying.

Presenter7:56

He decided not to be academic.

Michael Grade7:58

Uh I think it was decided for me.

Presenter8:00

Let's have your second record.

Michael Grade8:02

The second record is probably one of the greatest stars of all time. Again, this kind of recognition and identification and enjoyment you get from seeing true unique stars. This is Maria Callas.

Speaker 48:30

Oh, my God.

Presenter9:00

Maria Callas singing the Aria Vicidate from Puccini's Tosca with the orchestra of La Scala Milan conducted by Victor de Sabata.

Presenter9:09

Going back to the very beginning, Michael, you were born in the middle of the war, the son of Leslie Grade and the nephew of Lou Grade and Bernard Delphont. You never really knew your mother, Winifred, did you?

Michael Grade9:19

Not at all, no.

Presenter9:20

She left your father when you were, what, three years old?

Michael Grade9:23

I think younger than that, I think I was just over a year, as as far as I know.

Presenter9:27

So you were brought up by your grandmother, who by all accounts was a formidable woman.

Michael Grade9:31

A most formidable woman, yes. Lou, Burney and my father were all scared to death of her, with good reason. She was terrific.

Presenter9:38

Why were you scared of that?

Michael Grade9:39

She'd had a very tough life. She'd her husband, my grandfather, died.

Michael Grade9:44

uh when he was in his thirties. And she was she had four children to bring up, no income, uh in the East End of London and she had to be tough and she could make a chicken last a whole week. But she made good broth. She was terrific, yes. Jewish penicillin.

Presenter9:58

So she w she was lumbered with you and your elder sister. Can you give me a feel for that upbringing? What were its values?

Michael Grade10:06

Very traditional, very old-fashioned. She was Orthodox Jewish, although she.

Michael Grade10:13

wasn't strictly kosher in a sense. She would she would never eat anything that wasn't kosher herself, but she saw that the Gentiles were doing quite well on bacon, so she'd cook us bacon. She thought they knew something that she didn't, but she wouldn't eat it herself. But she used to cook it in kosher margarine, which was to and close all the windows so the neighbors shouldn't shouldn't know.

Speaker 110:28

Techn

Michael Grade10:32

But she was traditional value old fashioned uh family values, strong faith, which she gave me.

Presenter10:39

And she loved you to pieces.

Michael Grade10:39

Yeah.

Michael Grade10:40

Oh, absolutely.

Presenter10:41

Does she suffocate you with love?

Michael Grade10:41

But she saw

Michael Grade10:43

Absolutely, yes. And she lived to uh a grand old age of we never quite knew the truth, but sort of early nineties she lived till

Presenter10:51

What did what did she call you?

Michael Grade10:53

I think I was fifteen before I knew my name was Michael'cause she used to call me Bubbler. I thought my name was Bubbler, which is a sort of Jewish nickname.

Presenter11:01

But very difficult nevertheless to be brought up by somebody like that, who came not just from a different country, but a different era she'd been born in in the late nineteenth century very hard for a small boy to have that as the dominant influence in his life.

Michael Grade11:15

Yes, I mean, except that she did give me great maternal feelings and she filled that that part of me as far as

Michael Grade11:23

Sort of twentieth century values were concerned, the contemporary values. I got that from school, I got that from work, I got that from friends.

Presenter11:31

But why didn't you go and live with your father, who remarried and was very successful in business, and indeed had more children?

Michael Grade11:36

Well all this happened during the war and my dad was very, very sick in the war. He had typhoid fever in a in a field hospital in Cairo and it seemed sensible when he came back and he had to re-establish himself in business and so on. Uh it seemed sensible I guess at the time that this was this was the best thing because he couldn't really take care of us.

Presenter11:56

And your mother, you never heard from her again?

Michael Grade11:58

Never heard from her, never made contact, and it's one of those curious things that people don't really understand. But I don't feel the need to get involved in something that that

Michael Grade12:09

You know, the choice was made years ago.

Michael Grade12:12

It doesn't it it doesn't form any part of my life.

Presenter12:14

But she's still alive and living in the home counties. It seems strange that you don't just want to go and say hello.

Michael Grade12:20

Maybe I will one day, I don't know. I I

Michael Grade12:24

There's a sense in which I I don't like looking back. I'm a I'm a forward-looking person and uh I think I get that from the rest of the family.

Michael Grade12:31

I don't see the point in stirring all that up. It's

Presenter12:33

Have you ever seen her?

Michael Grade12:35

I think so once. I'm not terribly sure, but I think so once, fleetingly, uh at a football match. I think it was I think you know if you see somebody like that, I guess, and I think I didn't but I didn't come up and say her though.

Presenter12:45

It's just difficult to understand really, I suppose, for people, as you say, why why somebody who is mature and successful wo wouldn't want to go and sort of lay that bit of family history to rest.

Michael Grade12:53

I think it goes back to I I really think it would have been too painful p for my father for me to have inquired into it and I didn't want to hurt him.

Michael Grade13:02

And so I accepted it and and really that stuck with me.

Presenter13:07

So you may never see her.

Michael Grade13:08

Probably not.

Presenter13:11

Next record.

Michael Grade13:13

The opening of Mahler's second symphony. I don't think I could live on a desert island without hearing some Mahler. This is just the most exciting opening piece of music with a huge orchestra. There's nothing quite as exciting as this in a concert hall.

Presenter14:29

Part of Marler's Symphony Number Two, played by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir George Schulte. Have you still got sort of ten television screens winking at you in your office all the time?

Michael Grade14:38

Yes, I've got uh seven in all, yes.

Presenter14:42

Hold on.

Michael Grade14:43

Six of them are on, yes.

Presenter14:44

What about at home? Have you got lots of televisions?

Michael Grade14:46

T V in every room, yes, so that I can walk around with a Bolo Conflex in the morning without without missing the the action.

Presenter14:52

So television is a passion. It it might of course have been newspapers that were the passion, because there was a chap called Mike Grade who had a sports column on the mirror. What what happened to him?

Michael Grade15:02

Well, he uh he had a terrifically exciting uh life for six years. I was at the Daily Mirror with a daily column of my own, which was a sort of sports gossip column. I was Mike Gray, as you say, at the time, which

Michael Grade15:13

I'm happy to say hasn't stuck.

Michael Grade15:15

And I was paid to watch football. Then my dad was taken ill and uh Bernie took me to lunch and said, It's time you got serious, young man. It's time you came into the business And on those terms it seemed to me that they want they needed me and they wanted me, rather than me just sort of slipping straight from school into the family business and and

Presenter15:32

So then the passion became the theatrical agency business, and you flourished there in the late sixties and early seventies. Who are you booking then? Who who are you handling?

Michael Grade15:41

I was put in to share an office with a wonderful man called Billy Marsh. He and my father were the greatest agents, uh variety agents in this town. He and he discovered Morcom and Wyres, Norman Wisdom, Harry Wirth, uh Bruce Forsyth, etcetera, etcetera. And Billy taught me the business and I worked with Eric and Ernie, with uh Harry Wirth, with all of them.

Presenter16:00

Didn't you actually take Morecambe and Weiss to the BBC? That's to say you nicked them from your Uncle Lou at ATV?

Michael Grade16:07

Well they were working for Lou. Billy was away when the deal came up and and he he let me handle it and I went to see Bill Cotton at the BBC, young Bill Cotton, and we did a deal. Bill couldn't believe it. And I had to go and tell Lou that that that Morcombe and Wyers were leaving ATV and going to the BBC. I thought he was going to disown me, but that was the job.

Presenter16:26

Record number four.

Michael Grade16:28

Record number four is very important part of my life. This is Billy Cotton and his band, my dad's first big star as a as an agent, and he was a big family friend and we all grew up together.

Michael Grade16:41

And this is Billy Cotton's special record of the Red Red Robin, which is the signature tune of Charlton Athletic. It's a team my dad supported, the first match I ever went to with my dad and Bill Cotton. My son is also a supporter, and we're stuck with it.

Speaker 416:54

When the red, red, rubbing on F-Fuff Bob it along

Speaker 416:59

Hello.

Speaker 417:01

Have been on board something when he

Speaker 417:03

Okay, just go.

Speaker 417:05

Sounds good.

Speaker 417:07

Wake up, wake up, you sleepy heads Get up, get up, get out of bed Cheer up, cheer up The sun is red Live, love, love and be happy Who is party new now I'm walking through fields

Presenter17:25

Billy Cotton and his band Charlton Athletic and the Red Red Robin. So there you were in in nineteen seventy three. You were only thirty, and you were managing director of London Management, one of the biggest agencies in town.

Presenter17:36

Then suddenly you gave it all up. You quit, and you went to London weekend television as head of Light Entertainment. Why'd you turn your back on security, power, good salary?

Michael Grade17:46

I was very frustrated as an agent. You were always in the middle being pulled one way and the other. Either your client didn't want to do what you knew was good for them or the people who were buying wouldn't buy what you knew was good for them. And you were forever it was the most frustrating job in the world, and I think I was too thin skinned to do it. I got too emotionally involved with the clients.

Presenter18:04

You didn't like being a seller, you wanted to be a buyer.

Michael Grade18:07

I don't mind selling. I I enjoy selling. Uh I just

Michael Grade18:12

Didn't like the kind of impotent position you're in as an agent, which is always you're always in the middle, being pulled both way.

Presenter18:17

But then eight years later, and you'd risen quite high up to Director of Programmes in in London Weekend, then off you went again, this time you went to the States, to Hollywood, to be a producer. Um just one problem, you hated it. Was that again'cause you were a seller?

Michael Grade18:32

I didn't hate it, it was a very, very valuable experience for me.

Presenter18:36

That's what people always say, but it didn't go too well.

Michael Grade18:37

And I know.

Michael Grade18:39

Well, it it was a very tough it toughened me up a great deal. I earned a lot of money out there in a short space of time. I was pretty successful. What I didn't realize when I got there

Michael Grade18:51

That it wasn't really

Michael Grade18:52

a a a job in broadcasting, it was basically running a sales company, selling and creating product. And the product we were we were specialists in sitcom and that that drove me crazy. When you spend your life reading sitcom scripts, you can go m mad.

Presenter19:05

But as you say, you were selling again. You were sitting in the ante room, waiting to go in to see the important people. Is that what you didn't like?

Michael Grade19:12

Yes, it was back to being an agent in a sense, that you knew what was good for them and they couldn't see it, and that was that was extremely frustrating. But I did it, and I could do it, and I was pretty successful out there in terms of what I sold.

Presenter19:23

Now you're back here to being the important person sitting in a room with people waiting in your ante-room, huh?

Michael Grade19:28

Yes, but I've still got to sell it to the public.

Presenter19:30

Well, then you gave all of that up in Hollywood. You threw it in because the call came from the BBC. It was 1984, and we'll hear what happened then in a minute, but first, some more music.

Michael Grade19:39

This is just a piece of exquisite music, Yehudi Menuin, playing the Elgar violin concerto. Just an exquisite piece of music, quintessentially English and middle aged.

Presenter20:49

Ehudi Menouin playing part of the first movement of Elgar's violin concerto with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Edward Elgar.

Presenter20:57

It's always been said that your coming back from the States involved the biggest pay cut in history. It's a very good line, is it true?

Michael Grade21:03

Yeah, absolutely true. Yes, I I was earning uh I don't know three or four hundred thousand dollars a year.

Michael Grade21:09

and came back to run BBC One for the BBC for I think forty thousand a year.

Presenter21:13

Were you so desperate to come back?

Michael Grade21:16

I wanted to get back into broadcasting. I wanted to deal with news. I wanted to deal with documentaries, drama.

Michael Grade21:22

and all the great things of British broadcasting.

Presenter21:24

And running the BBC at BBC One anyway was was great fun, was right up your street.

Michael Grade21:29

I loved every minute of it.

Presenter21:30

Was it the best job you've ever had?

Michael Grade21:32

No, I don't think so. It was extremely fulfilling when it came right. It took a long time and a lot of work. I was in it.

Michael Grade21:40

Seven o'clock in the morning and leaving at midnight most days to get it right and to get get the thing.

Michael Grade21:46

On track again.

Presenter21:47

But you had fun with it. I mean, you you rescheduled the early evening and everybody credits you with EastEnders and Wogan, although to be fair, they were in production when you were in the middle of the day.

Michael Grade21:55

Oh, absolutely. I hadn't seen television for three years, and I was very relieved when I got here to find that that the quality of the programmes was extremely high, but they were just a secret. You know, nobody knew where to put them or how to how to promote them or how to encourage them.

Presenter22:09

He also managed, of course, to move panorama which had never been achieved in the history of the universe.

Michael Grade22:14

No, and the sky didn't fall in, and the programme, I think, doubled at least doubled its ratings. But I I took time to to persuade the producers. The great thing I did, I think, at the BBC was to make myself accessible to the people who were making the programmes. It seemed staggering to me that that none of them had ever had a conversation with a controller before, or many of them hadn't.

Presenter22:32

So television and the BBC felt like home, rather like the palladium had before it, as it were.

Michael Grade22:37

Yes, Iron it was just a giant toy shop. It was wonderful.

Presenter22:40

So why then, four years later, when you were about to become managing director of BBC Television and thereby take over the running of two major channels, more television than you would ever have got your hands on at Channel four, did you dump the one and go for the other?

Michael Grade22:54

I could see that there were two drawbacks to the job in the future. One was that it was going to be about managing resources, just a real management job, nothing to do with the programmes. And also, I think there was just too much politics at the BBC at the time.

Presenter23:07

Uh But the fact was that that John Burt, who'd been your deputy at London Week End, had been made deputy director general. He'd come in March nineteen eighty seven, and by November you were gone. I mean the two.

Presenter23:19

Things are directly linked, aren't they?

Michael Grade23:21

I was as keen as anybody to have John come in. We'd worked well together. He'd worked for me at LWT and I felt he would make a big contribution to the BBC. Unfortunately, and I don't think this was any fault of John's, there was a confusion about responsibilities. It came to a head on a certain issue.

Michael Grade23:41

No secret. I lost the argument uh and realized that the next few years of my life would be spent trying to regain that position and it was just it was just I just didn't want to spend the rest of my the next few years politicking at least.

Presenter23:53

So you felt your your power had been undermined?

Michael Grade23:56

Oh, unquestionably.

Presenter23:58

And did you also feel that um your route to the top, to the very top of the B B C, that is to say, to become Director General, was from then on effectively blocked?

Michael Grade24:08

No, I never I absolutely never thought of it in those terms. The job of Managing Director of the Television Service is a huge job, a more important job in a way than Director General, because if the television service goes wrong, the whole justification for the licence fee falls.

Presenter24:22

So then why did you give it up so easily?

Michael Grade24:25

The only way I can function is to come to work and be happy and work in an environment where I'm appreciated and where I can appreciate other people and create a happy environment. I couldn't see that happening.

Presenter24:35

So you were an unhappy man, a frustrated man at the B B C. You saw your chance, the Channel Four job, the the closing date for application was upon you, so you went for it, and you got it.

Presenter24:46

You escaped.

Presenter24:48

What would you have done if it hadn't come up?

Michael Grade24:50

I would have left.

Michael Grade24:51

the BBC at that time.

Presenter24:53

Even if you had nowhere to go to the middle.

Michael Grade24:55

The BBC would have been in factions then, and I think it would have been very unpleasant for everybody.

Michael Grade25:00

I don't think I could have functioned under those circumstances.

Presenter25:03

Next piece of music.

Michael Grade25:05

Don Giovanni, my favorite opera, the first opera I ever saw, one that lingers with me. I just couldn't bear to be on the island without it. The best Don Giovanni I've ever seen. I've seen him I've watched him over the years reinterpret the role. Thomas Allen.

Speaker 425:47

Faimon boy comes Feriche fair sau bour la mi ankour ma pour

Presenter26:11

Thomas Allen and Elizabeth Gale singing the duet L'Aci darem la Mano from Mozart's Don Giovanni with the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Bernard Heitink.

Presenter26:21

The fear was, Michael Greid, among Channel Four's disciples, that you would take it down market, that you would popularize it, because that's what you're good at, as we've said. That isn't what's happened. Does that mean you're now a devotee of minority innovative programming?

Michael Grade26:37

I've always been characterized as a Vulgarian, but over the years I've been associated with a whole range of women.

Presenter26:42

Yes, but you're also um a a business man and a man who's got show business in his roots, as we've been discussing. Surely it goes against the grain.

Michael Grade26:42

Uh

Presenter26:50

to have to schedule uh a channel that is actually for minorities, which is sort of upmarket cultural minority programming, which isn't after big viewing figures.

Michael Grade27:00

Well, I've had the greatest pleasure in my life recently, in my working life, has been to watch the figures at Channel Four for news and current affairs and particularly for documentaries go up and up and up as a result of a successful popular schedule.

Presenter27:15

Yes, but you could practically double the number of viewers at Channel Four if you wanted to, if you could commission and schedule the programmes that you know and you like and you want.

Michael Grade27:24

That's too easy. It's like a comic going out saying I can get laughs with dirty jokes. The trick is to get laughs with m with clean material. Anybody can go out and get laughs with filth. The great challenge of Channel Four is to push the ratings up without changing the mix of programmes, and that that's that is precisely what is happening at

Presenter27:40

But nevertheless, the people who feel that their channel isn't safe in your hands have even set up a a sort of watchdog committee to make sure that you remain faithful to the remit of minority multicultural programming. Do you do you resent that distrust that even after nearly four years goes on?

Michael Grade27:57

Well, it depends who's doing the distrusting. If they're people I respect, I would be very stung by it. But if they're people sitting on the sidelines who really haven't achieved very much in this industry, it's discountable.

Presenter28:09

Record number seven.

Michael Grade28:10

This is Beethoven, the funeral movement from the Euroeka Symphony. Very evocative for me of my Jewish heritage and Jewish roots. It was played in the memorial service in the Munich Olympic Games in 1972 after the dreadful slaughter of the Israeli athletes. And there was a memorial service on the Sunday in the stadium, and the Berlin Philharmonic played this. It was very moving, particularly evocative because it happened in Germany, which brought back all the memories, of course, of the Holocaust, which is a thing that is important to Jews everywhere.

Presenter29:42

Part of the second movement of Beethoven's third symphony, The Eroica, played by the Berlin Philharmonic, conducted by Herbert von Carrion.

Presenter29:50

Your private life, Michael, has made many a tabloid column inch. Two failed marriages, affairs that have come and gone. Is is that the price you pay for being a workaholic, or simply for being Michael Grade?

Michael Grade30:02

It's the price you pay for being willing to talk to the press and for using your own personality to promote your work.

Presenter30:10

But on the personal level, whether it's in the press or not, the point is that that there have been quite a few women in your life and you don't seem to have made a great success of of of that side of your life. I mean, the armchair psychologist would have it, as I'm sure you know, that it's because your mother left you and you don't trust women.

Michael Grade30:26

Well, whatever the reason is, I have no idea.

Michael Grade30:30

I think I married too young the first time.

Michael Grade30:33

And the second time uh uh Sarah and I were basically working miles and miles apart. She was spending a lot of time in Los Angeles.

Michael Grade30:41

And I was in London working for the BBC and we hardly saw each other and, you know, marriages crumble under that kind of pressure and it was very sad.

Presenter30:48

And will there be a third time?

Michael Grade30:49

Who knows? I hope so.

Michael Grade30:52

Very happy at the moment.

Presenter30:55

And are you any good without a woman? I mean, how will you cope on the desert island?

Michael Grade30:59

I think I'll manage okay. I'm quite happy in my own company.

Presenter31:02

And what will you miss most?

Michael Grade31:03

I miss my children, Alison and Jonathan.

Michael Grade31:06

The

Michael Grade31:07

Everlasting loves are my life.

Michael Grade31:10

I h like to think they'll miss me.

Presenter31:12

So you'll sit there on the island and you'll um you'll dream of your children and dream of other things too, I'm sure. I wonder if you'll

Presenter31:18

Dream of becoming Director General of the B B C

Michael Grade31:21

No, thank you very much. No, I don't think so.

Presenter31:24

Categorically no.

Michael Grade31:25

No, I I categorically no, living on the desert island will even on my own seems to me a much more tranquil existence than

Michael Grade31:33

Coming into the BBC.

Presenter31:34

But people say it's the best job in broadcasting and broadcasting is your passion.

Michael Grade31:38

I've got the best job in broadcasting and I won't give it up lightly.

Presenter31:42

Is there another job that you covet?

Michael Grade31:45

Chairman of the BBC. No, I don't know.

Michael Grade31:47

I don't know.

Presenter31:48

So if the offer came of the Director Generalship of the BBC, would you say no?

Michael Grade31:55

Uh it would depend.

Michael Grade31:57

On a great number of conditions and circumstances. It would depend what the constitution of the BBC was, it would depend on so many things.

Presenter32:05

So you might just sit on your island and dream about it.

Michael Grade32:07

I wouldn't dream about it, no, I'd I'd give thanks every day that I got my health.

Presenter32:12

Last record.

Michael Grade32:14

Jesse Norman, one of the great stars of the moment and perhaps of all time, one of the great voices.

Michael Grade32:20

uh singing one of

Michael Grade32:22

Richard Strauss's four last songs, just sublime, unthinkable to spend one's life and not hear this again.

Speaker 432:41

Don't be a child.

Speaker 432:46

Prison slowly sing.

Speaker 433:02

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 433:07

Big a shit.

Speaker 433:13

We are.

Presenter33:26

Jessie Norman, singing one of Richard Strauss's four last songs, Beim Schlaffengen, with the Gewanthaus Orchestra Leipzig, conducted by Kurt Mazur. So, Michael, if you could only take one of those records.

Michael Grade33:38

Jesse Norman

Michael Grade33:40

Every time you hear it, you hear something different, you feel something different. It's an extraordinary piece of music.

Presenter33:45

And your book as well as the Bible and Shakespeare?

Michael Grade33:47

Well, I figured with the Bible and Shakespeare I got enough to stretch my intellect uh from here to eternity. But I I wanted something funny to remind me of Home and if I could cheat slightly.

Michael Grade33:58

I'd like uh Alan Bennett reading on tape of The Wind in the Willows.

Presenter34:04

Perhaps you should have had him as one of the eight. I just cheating slightly.

Michael Grade34:07

Cheating slightly, but uh

Presenter34:08

You can't read it yourself.

Michael Grade34:10

But I'd hear Alan's voice and I he's somebody I admire enormously. I think he's one of the greatest living English writers. And he brings so much to that book. Wi without his voice reading it, it's not the same.

Presenter34:22

Uh Your luxury

Michael Grade34:23

Okay.

Michael Grade34:24

I have to have the sports results.

Michael Grade34:26

How you get them to me I'm not sure. Anyhow, I don't mind. I have to have the World Sports News somehow.

Presenter34:33

But there isn't a way of getting them to you.

Michael Grade34:35

Well, I've I've got to have them. I'm sorry, I'm not going unless I get them.

Presenter34:39

You can have them in a bottle washed up five years on.

Presenter34:43

Is that right?

Michael Grade34:44

No, no. I have to know whether Charlton have won or not. I have to know how England have done in the World Cup, the cricket scores, the base.

Presenter34:50

Well you can't have a telephone and you can't have a satellite. You'll have to make do with a bottle.

Michael Grade34:55

Can't I have a newspaper delivered? Just the back page.

Presenter34:56

Just the back.

Presenter34:59

Alright, a bottle one week on.

Michael Grade35:02

Fine, I our settled.

Presenter35:04

Michael Grade, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Michael Grade35:08

Thank you.

Speaker 435:16

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/radio four.