Will Carling

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 10:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety two, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is a rugby player. Three and a half years ago he fulfilled a dream he'd had at the age of six and became captain of England. He was only twenty two, the youngest player in the team and the youngest to hold the captaincy for decades. But youth has proved no obstacle to achievement. England wasn't enjoying much success when he took charge, but since then they've reached the final of the World Cup and of course they've won the Grand Slam for the last two years running. Here's Will Carling.

Presenter0:56

A dream since the age of six, Will. I mean, could you actually play rugger at the age of six?

Will Carling1:01

I think I started playing rugby at the age of six and a half or seven. You know, it's hard to say exactly when, but it was before I went to prep school because all I know is when I got there I just wanted to play rugby.

Presenter1:10

But it was always the oval ball, was it? You never considered the round one.

Will Carling1:14

No, I didn't. I don't know why. And my father used to play a lot, but he he he never forced me, but I think it was the fact that I watched internationals and I used to love them. So it was you know, rugby was was was it I don't know whether it was'cause it was slightly more physical and I when I was young I thought that was great.

Presenter1:29

And were you quite a chunky chap?

Will Carling1:31

Oh, at that age I was quite big, yeah.

Presenter1:33

So when you got to prep school you just kind of pushed the others out of the way and ran with the ball, never passed it, I suppose.

Will Carling1:38

It never passed the ball, no. Things uh things haven't changed, but uh

Presenter1:42

So from the very beginning you were really, really competitive, naturally competitive, were you?

Will Carling1:46

I think I was, yeah. I I remember um at cricket once I was given out, and obviously I didn't agree with it, and I stormed into what we had, a little pavilion, and threw my back down. Turned round to see my mother, who had come storming after me, and she gave me uh one of the hardest slaps I've ever had. But uh yeah, I I just I was when I was young, I just I couldn't stand losing.

Presenter2:06

And when you dreamed of of running through the tunnel and out on to the pitch to the roar of the crowd, were you simply playing for England, or were you leading them? Were you the captain, even at the age of six?

Will Carling2:18

I think I was the captain. We used to have a long, long run out at prep school and it was it was an incredibly long tunnel because I used to imagine as I ran out that this was for England, you see, and and when we got changed we were changing for England and the colour was a bit wrong, but uh other than that it was all the same, but I think it was that I w that I was captain and uh

Will Carling2:35

You know, I s I certainly, uh, when I played when no one else was there, scored some great drummers.

Presenter2:41

And did the reality live up to it when it eventually came? Did it live up to the dream?

Will Carling2:45

Oh yeah, more so really. Certainly when I first played and I walked off I it was I sat in the chamber and I thought I just can't believe that.

Presenter2:52

And do you still get the goose pimples, and does the heart still pound?

Will Carling2:56

Very much so. I remember sitting with Wade Dooley,'cause he's got, you know, fifty caps before in Paris this this year. And we were sitting there on Friday night, it was about eleven o'clock, and I said, Wade, I said, Are you nervous? He said, Yeah.

Will Carling3:08

He said, Are you? I said, Oh, yeah. He said, Oh, it makes me feel better. And it does, you sort of, you know,'cause I still get as nervous as when I first played.

Presenter3:15

Yeah.

Will Carling3:15

And I think we all do, which is great, really.

Presenter3:15

Uh

Presenter3:18

Let's begin with your desert island discs then. What what's the first record that you're going to play?

Will Carling3:23

First record is from the film The Mission, and it's actually uh called Gabriel's Oboe because I listen to this on the coach and and when we arrive at Twickenham or whichever game we play, I always listen to these songs, there's about three of them. People seem to think oh it must be heavy metal because I always have a walkman on, but it's not and I find them very calming before actually playing.

Presenter4:12

Gabriel's oboe from the film The Mission, played by the London Philharmonic Orchestra, and part of Will Carling's pre-match ritual.

Will Carling4:19

Yes, it is. It's I I sort of made um before I played I made a one of those little compilation tapes with music from the Mission and and and other music which I listen to on on a Friday night, especially when we're at the the Petersham in Richmond and we usually have the last team meeting at about seven thirty or whatever and then we have dinner. And I usually go for a walk at about ten and I listen to this kind of music and just wander around for about half an hour, forty-five minutes.

Presenter4:45

And are there any other prematch superstitions that you have, things that you always do?

Will Carling4:50

I always listened to Grandstand.

Will Carling4:52

um, which is on about twelve fifteen, I think it starts. So I'm always in my room then and I have the volume right up because I love that music. And that reminds me of internationals,'cause when I was young that was it, you know, when that was on I was in a in a state of absolute tension. But, um, that's the only other thing.

Presenter5:06

The big superstition for England, of course, until January last year was that they'd never beaten Wales at the Arms Park, the Welsh home ground, and then last year you did it for the first time in twenty eight years.

Presenter5:19

Was that an enormous thing to overcome? Did you feel that?

Will Carling5:22

You tend to be selfish in the sense that I'd played there once and lost once, so it wasn't it wasn't a massive thing for me.

Presenter5:29

You're a bit dismissive of all that Welsh hype, eh?

Will Carling5:32

Well, I think you have to be'cause if you start, you know, s reading it all and listening to it, you think, Well, maybe there is something here, but

Presenter5:38

But, nevertheless, it must be a huge experience r running out into that that wall of Welsh noise, not even being able to hear your own national anthem, you know,'cause they never shut up, do they?

Will Carling5:47

No, they don't, no. I mean, it is an amazing it's an amazing stadium. I mean, certainly in eighty nine we went down there. When we came out and listened to them sing, it is uh quite incredible.

Presenter5:58

But how do you prepare your men to cope with that, for that that kind of great passion that's roused against them when they get out there? It must throw you.

Will Carling6:07

Luckily we've got a very experienced side, so so the guys really know w what's coming. But even with young guys, it's a question you just you just switch off because you hear it when you when you run out. You obviously hear it at the anthems, but then it's the game. And surprisingly, you really don't hear much.

Presenter6:22

Don't you?

Will Carling6:23

Now, when the ball's in play you don't hear anything.

Presenter6:25

But you must hear it when you're really running for a try, when you suddenly see your moment and the crowd swells behind you. You must hear it.

Will Carling6:31

You don't know you don't. If you manage to score, then you suddenly hear the crowd. But when you're running, you don't. It's amazing.

Presenter6:38

But then at the end you not only hear them but you you feel them'cause they come rushing on. You you usually lose your boots, do you?

Will Carling6:44

I lo yeah, I lost my boots last year. Yeah, but those were amazing scenes.

Presenter6:48

You don't mind that. I mean, sometimes one looks at it and one thinks, My God, they're going to get, you know, completely crushed in all of that.

Will Carling6:53

It was actually quite frightening. You're shattered after the end of a game.

Presenter6:56

Mm-hmm.

Will Carling6:57

And they lift you up and and that's quite embarrassing anyway. And I was quite a long way away from the edge of the pitch and I said, Come on, you know, I've got to get in. They said, No, no, you're going to stay with us.

Presenter7:05

Hmm.

Will Carling7:05

And there's actually nothing you can do.

Presenter7:07

Record number two.

Will Carling7:08

Record number two is uh is Layla by uh Eric Clapton. Because I remember it when I when I was at school. It was basically when I was first picked to play for Sedba, which for me was the highlight of of my life. And I remember listening to this'cause I thought it was quite a mature record at the time. I probably still do actually.

Speaker 47:27

Dutch give you consolation.

Speaker 47:30

The new old man can let me

Presenter7:50

Eric Clapton and Layla, and a reminder of being picked for your public school first 15. How old were you, Will?

Will Carling7:56

I was fifteen when I when I played my first game.

Presenter7:59

Looks very young.

Will Carling8:00

It was actually because I was still only in the fifth form and that was something that they'd never done before. It was the last game of the season they and they had an injury and they just and they picked me. I have honestly never been as as nervous or frightened before a game in my life. For me that was just

Will Carling8:15

The most petrifying experience I've ever had on a rugby field.

Presenter8:18

Yeah, you were at Sedborough, which is in the the Lake District, said to be a very tough school, fell running before breakfast.

Will Carling8:19

Do you send

Will Carling8:23

Well, I never actually did a fell running before, but it was it was very mu it's an outdoor school. I mean, it is right in the middle of the fells. We used to think nothing of of a five mile run over the fells. In the afternoon you you didn't have anything, you used to go for a five mile run.

Presenter8:36

So was your whole school career dedicated r I mean, was academic matters were pushed rather to one side by you, were they?

Will Carling8:43

They tended to. I mean, I think it became more important at Sedborough. I realized that you you had to get O levels, you had to get A levels. But everything was geared around sport.

Presenter8:53

And you became captain eventually of the England Schoolboys. How difficult did you imagine it was going to be, that journey from schoolboy rugby into international rugby? Did you think it was a fairly direct line?

Will Carling9:06

I happened to play for England's schoolboys and and that was great, but I could never realistically see myself playing for England.

Presenter9:13

What you thought there was a huge chasm between

Will Carling9:15

Yeah, which which I was never gonna cross anyway. And and it really sort of got broken by I played my first year with a man called Kevin Sims.

Presenter9:16

But the two cross

Will Carling9:24

Then I had my year off. I paid another year for England school, was had a year off. During my year off, he got picked for England. And that's when I first thought, well,

Will Carling9:32

You know, there there must be a chance to bridge the chasm, but before then I could I could never see it.

Presenter9:35

More than

Presenter9:37

Well indeed there was. I mean you went you then went to University, to Durham and got into the university team. You played for the Northern Division and you joined the Harlequins and then

Presenter9:46

You were asked to play for England, and you were just about twenty two, so it must have seemed quite easy when it eventually happened.

Will Carling9:54

A lot of people will say that, yeah, I had no trouble.

Will Carling9:56

Playing for England, I have had a very easy run in, and I suppose I have been incredibly lucky. I suppose the only disappointment I've had is I didn't make the last World Cup. They didn't take me. But compared to what other people have been through, yeah, it's been remarkably easy for me.

Presenter10:10

You were in the army, of course, at the time, because you'd gone to university on an army scholarship. But then the army got in the way, didn't they? Tell me what happened.

Will Carling10:18

Well, I think for me the rugby was was the dream, and I got picked, and I knew that uh in the September I'd have to go back to Sandhurst for a six month course.

Will Carling10:30

So all the way along the line I've been saying to people in the army, is there going to be a problem with the rugby? Can I still play? And they had said absolutely no problem at all. And then literally I went on tour to Australia with England, got back and about a month before I was meant to go to Sandhurst I heard through my father, he said, Well, I think the rumour is that while you're at Sandhurst there they don't think you're going to be able to play representative rugby, which was a change, a sudden swing. So I thought, well, I organised for an interview, went down there and spoke to the man who was in charge and he said, well,

Will Carling11:00

We don't think, you know, you're going to have the time to play Representative Rugby while you're here, and it looks like, you know, six months off, which is a whole season for me.

Will Carling11:07

And at the end of the day I wasn't willing to take the risk. I said, Well, thank you, but no, thank you. I want to carry on playing for England or try to.

Will Carling11:14

And I'll do something else rather than the army.

Presenter11:16

So you bought yourself out.

Will Carling11:17

Yeah, which was very sad actually. Very sad.

Presenter11:19

How much would it cost?

Will Carling11:21

Quite a lot.

Will Carling11:22

Quite a lot.

Presenter11:22

Throws them.

Will Carling11:23

Yeah.

Presenter11:24

Do you think they missed a trick, though? I mean, after all, your your England colleague Rory Underwood has brought an enormous amount of publicity to the RAF.

Will Carling11:32

I think so. I mean, I literally I I bought my way out of the army. A month later I was made captain of England. I think there was a lot of talk in the army as to whether they had made the right decision or not.

Presenter11:41

So you were twenty two, on your own, ex-army, no job, but an England cap, so it was worth it, huh?

Will Carling11:47

I think it was worth it, yeah.

Presenter11:48

Yeah.

Presenter11:49

Record number three.

Will Carling11:51

Record number three was uh is by Steve Winward, um Higher Love, because I remember this at university when I when I first got there really, and when I started listening to a few of his albums and it was the when you I suppose you you compare Sedba to Durham, it was the freedom really that that I remember and actually having to uh make a choice whether I went to lectures or not.

Speaker 412:12

I don't know.

Speaker 412:15

Make me love

Speaker 412:21

Come on.

Presenter12:37

Stevie Wynwood and Higher Love. It was in January 1988 that you were picked to play for England, and nine months later, in October, you were invited to be captain. The rugby world was astonished. Were you?

Will Carling12:50

Oh yeah. Not as astonished as the England team, I don't think. I was because um when Jeff Cook rang me up.

Will Carling12:57

I honestly thought it was, you know, to drop me. And then he said, you know, I I want you you know, would you like to captain the side?

Will Carling13:04

And obviously you would, and I said I'd love to, um but at the same time you put the phone down and you suddenly think, Well, I'm twenty two, I'm the youngest And I don't think age was the major problem. It was I was, as you say, nine months since my first cap, and that's not long at all.

Presenter13:20

And you think of somebody like Wade Dooley, who's kind of hugely experienced, six foot eight, eighteen st is he going to take orders from you?

Will Carling13:28

Well, exactly, and that's the thing that amazed me more than anything when Jeff told them. And there must have been, and and quite rightly in in a way, there must have been people sitting in the room saying

Will Carling13:37

Well, hang on, what about me?

Will Carling13:39

I'm more experienced, I've been around longer, I've got a track record, I could captain England. But they never show that to me at all.

Will Carling13:47

Never? No, which was incredible. They were so keen, I think, to be successful, they said, Okay, Jeff's made this decision.

Speaker 113:47

Member.

Will Carling13:52

you know, try and help them and that really has been the case that for four years uh or three and a half years they've looked after me rather than the other way round and um

Will Carling14:01

It's it's been a great experience, but there must have been times early on when they thought, What on earth has Jeff done to us?

Presenter14:07

And there must have been times for you as well when you thought, How can I set about winning their confidence? What did you say to yourself? How did you approach it, knowing what you knew?

Will Carling14:15

And there's no way, obviously, as you say, with these big guys, I was going to go in, thump the table, and say, Right, I'm Captain, this is what you're going to do.

Speaker 414:21

Yeah.

Will Carling14:22

Um, because I think they would have just laughed at me. But I said, you know, this is what I honestly this is where I believe we can get to. They already had the attitude of mine to say, Yeah, we want to get there too, so it was

Presenter14:31

But you also had something else that an England captain hadn't had before, and that was the the powers of a selector, wasn't it? You could you could recommend dropping some of these guys if you felt like it.

Will Carling14:41

Exactly.

Presenter14:42

How hard was that to cope with?

Will Carling14:44

I think that's been the hardest bit, really.

Will Carling14:46

Although it it's nice to be able to have a say in the team, it's such a double edged sword when people are dropped. They're so upset, and quite rightly. And it's been very hard to to drop people who are your friends. Um it's very hard to pick people, and you've got to be so unbiased when you sit there.

Speaker 114:58

Mm.

Will Carling15:02

And it puts me in a quite a difficult position because you're not just a player, but you're not management. You sort of float in the middle because they know you sit on selection. But it does leave you in that sort of limbo land where where players know it's you're slightly different and that's that's been very hard and it's it's in a way quite lonely.

Presenter15:19

Next piece of music.

Will Carling15:20

Next piece is uh is Dame Kiritakanawa's World in Union theme because the World Cup was such a a brilliant experience and for me even now whenever I hear it it uh still brings back amazing memories for me.

Speaker 415:46

As we fly to reach our destiny

Speaker 415:52

Are you raised first?

Presenter15:58

Dame Kiri Takanu is singing World in Union, the theme music for the nineteen ninety one Rugby World Cup.

Presenter16:04

Which international team

Presenter16:07

is the most formidable. I suppose what I really mean is who plays dirtiest?

Will Carling16:13

I don't think any side really you look at them and say they're the dirtiest team. I mean, a lot of them are very hard. But at international level now, with um with touch judges intervening as well, there is actually not a lot of of dirty play that goes on. Isn't there?

Presenter16:27

Isn't there?

Will Carling16:29

It's very hard and very physi. Well, I don't know. I try and stay out of there. But you have to ask them.

Presenter16:34

But there is isn't I mean fingers stuck in eyes, quick jab in the kidneys, I mean it does go on, doesn't it?

Will Carling16:39

But yeah, I mean there are always little things which unfortunately do go on. But as I say, I honestly don't really get involved in that.

Presenter16:45

The fans often mutter about the French being the dirtiest players, but that may be just xenophobia.

Will Carling16:45

The sound

Will Carling16:52

I think the French law is quite volatile, um and when things are not going well for them they tend to get a bit a bit worked up, a bit excited. But that's the way they play their rugby. You know, that's it's all or nothing for them, and once it's gone they uh they explode.

Presenter17:06

But I suppose when I mean when there is that intense competition and that kind of pain and agony and desire to win, there's bound to be desperation and therefore some dirty tricks.

Will Carling17:17

Yes, unfortunately.

Presenter17:18

Don't tell me you've never stuck your finger in somebody's eye.

Will Carling17:21

I'm not I'm just as you talk to the big boys, we're just pretty boys in the backs, you know, we do nothing really anyway. Um but I haven't I mean they're all bigger than me, I wouldn't dare do something to to any of them. I'd have to run away, but I think there there are obviously incidents, but they are far less than people imagine because the game's so fast that if all you're thinking about is I want to hurt this guy, then your mind's off the game and suddenly, you know, you're out of position, so

Presenter17:42

European

Presenter17:44

How do you then as the captain give orders on the field? I mean, do you suddenly yell at one of your teammates? Do you say, Come on, concentrate, or run fast? Or do you have kind of code words?

Will Carling17:53

If I if I ever shout at someone, I'd I'd prefer it to be encouragement rather than just come on, you know, which doesn't really mean anything.

Presenter17:58

Which

Presenter18:00

So how, then, before the match have you prepared them psychologically? Do you talk to them individually as well as as a team?

Will Carling18:07

I can afford to to sit and watch and if I think someone for some reason is very tense then I might sit down, we'll chat a few things through and I'll try and find out what it is. And I think it's a little like that. I don't make a point of of in the build up from a Wednesday to an international of sitting with every single person every time because then it just gets oh will sitting with me again. I think it's if you can see a reason for doing it then I'll do it. But we we do have a very definite build up from a Wednesday, a Thursday is very much concentrating on the opposition. And we switch that to a Friday and concentrate very much on ourselves and all the good things that we've done. So we watch video of the good things we've done and we basically tell ourselves how good we are. So that on Saturday we'll go out in a very confident mood, positive frame of mind and play.

Presenter18:51

But nevertheless, there are nerves, as you said earlier. I mean, and you go on feeling nervous and and as you say, a a good thing too. But the different players have different requirements, don't they? Some people need to kind of really make a lot of noise right up until the last moment, and other people need to be very quiet in anticipation of something that terrifies them.

Will Carling19:08

Yeah, it's quite interesting sitting in the even sitting in the changing room, how different it is. You'll get two or three guys who will just sit there quietly, will change very quickly and just sit. There will be others, as you say, talking the whole time, and I now know how each one wants to prepare.

Will Carling19:24

It's very hard when you come into a team and it's new to know who likes to make the noise, who likes to get, you know, sort of hit themselves while they go out and pump themselves up and who likes just to be very, very quiet.

Presenter19:34

What do you like to do, left to your own devices?

Will Carling19:36

I'm not a ranter and raver. I don't like to listen, as I said, to heavy metal. I don't like to to hit myself or bang my head against the wall. I just like to think about something and go out and play.

Presenter19:45

Record number five.

Will Carling19:47

Record number five is Sacrifice by Eldon John.

Will Carling19:51

Because it reminds me of a of a period um after the the Scottish defeat in nineteen ninety in the Tour to Argentina when things were were hard in terms of results weren't coming. It's quite a sad song and it reminds me of that period really.

Speaker 420:04

And it's now sacrificed.

Speaker 420:08

Just a seller

Speaker 420:13

Two hearts flavor

Speaker 420:16

Into Sephiroth

Speaker 420:21

But it's not sacrificed Lot sacrifice

Speaker 420:30

It's not like you find

Presenter20:34

Elton John and Sacrifice, and a reminder for Will Carling of England's defeat in march nineteen ninety at Murrayfield. Was that the lowest point of your career?

Will Carling20:44

Yes, I think so. In in terms of the team and everything. Sitting in the change room afterwards was definitely the worst worst time for the team. It was uh it was awful.

Presenter20:54

You came in for a tremendous amount of criticism after that match. It wasn't just uh criticism about the game, because you can always analyse that again and justify decisions and so on. But it was personal criticism against you as well, wasn't it? They said you were cocky and you were arrogant and all those things. How difficult has it been for you to cope with that?

Will Carling21:13

It is hard. I mean, you you make I think you make mistakes in in terms of the media things that you might do and then they say, Well, you know, he he's doing it for his own good or, you know, he's just arrogant and

Will Carling21:25

Um I find I'm I'm quite sensit I'm very sensitive to criticism in that sense. Um and it hurt a lot. And it was it was a very hard time for me'cause it it makes you think, you know, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing it for the right reasons? And have I have I got everything in in the right proportion? So

Presenter21:41

Have you found yourself sort of wooed by the fame of it all, you know, and the idea of people wanting to put photographs of you on the front of magazines and so on? I mean

Presenter21:50

Have you been guilty of perhaps falling for a bit of that and then realizing that it perhaps wasn't the best thing to do?

Will Carling21:56

The brief that was, I think, given when I was made captain was to give a captain the highest profile so that he would raise the profile of the game and everything. So there's this incredibly thin line between doing publicity, which is going to be good for rugby, and then there's that you cross the line when people say well he's only doing it for himself. And whatever I do, I suppose I'm never going to please everyone. But certainly there are mistakes that you make in terms of doing things for magazines when people could just say that's that's over the top. And I admit, you know, I've got those wrong, but you know, you learn.

Presenter22:27

And you've tried hard to keep your personal life private, haven't you, as well? And you've managed, really. I must say, compared with people in football and and cricket, people like Gazza, or both of them, you you've got away quite lightly, haven't you?

Will Carling22:37

Okay, I mean

Will Carling22:39

Yes, I have. I've actually been very lucky with the media, generally. I've they've treated me very well. I try not to get myself in the situation where my my private life is is going to come into uh contact with the media. I don't see any reason why it should.

Presenter22:52

Another piece of music.

Will Carling22:53

Yeah, the next piece of music is uh From the Police and it's Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic. And I remember this wa when I was at school. I just started playing for England's schools.

Will Carling23:02

And I absolutely loved this song, and I remember I had to rational myself to listen to it only once a day. But it was a great period of my life I'd actually got an England shirt.

Speaker 423:11

He is a good man, long before I reach the home.

Speaker 423:18

Men will always be a lady.

Presenter23:40

The police and every little thing she does is magic.

Presenter23:43

The other big difference between rugby and cricket and soccer is of course money. You don't get paid, and they do. You're amateur, they're professional. You said you don't want to be paid for playing rugby. Why not?

Will Carling23:57

There's never been the idea for me to play rugby for money. And I want a career, that's the thing. I want something that, you know, I'm going to do till I'm sixty.

Will Carling24:05

I think there's still major problems in the game.

Will Carling24:08

Um as to the rules as players now, there's so much pressure on them that they can't actually pursue a career and play international rugby.

Presenter24:17

Not without having very sympathetic employers.

Will Carling24:19

But even then, you see, I mean, they have and and the England team are very lucky with the people that employ the side. They basically sponsor the player because he's been away so long, especially over the last eighteen months. But even so, he still cannot pursue his career as hard as someone who's there the whole time.

Presenter24:33

But you don't have any misgivings, do you, about players earning money from commercial activities like opening supermarkets or making a speech or doing an advert. You think that's fair, right, and proper?

Will Carling24:43

The ruling at the moment is you you can advertise, you can endorse, but it mustn't be rugby related. I just cannot see everything is rugby related. You're a rugby player. If uh Gavin Hastings or Jerry Gusket's in an advert, people immediately think of him as as the rugby player. So to say that you can't stand there in an England or a Scottish or a Welsh shirt because that's rugby related I I really can't see the logic and I and I can't see what damage it does if if you are standing there in an England shirt.

Presenter25:10

I suppose the fear is that in the end, if that turns into very big money, which it can do, it destroys the amateur spirit of the game. It's the thin end of a very nasty wedge.

Will Carling25:22

I think players are are fairly intelligent beings and they will never play rugby for money.

Presenter25:26

What about other teams round the world, the teams you're competing against? Do they have to abide by the same rules or different ones?

Will Carling25:32

Well the international board sort of drew up a a series of rules and and then said it's up to each country to interpret them, which I find slightly strange that they meant the international board surely should lay down the rules for world rugby. It's a world game. So why New Zealand should interpret the rules differently from England or Scotland? We're meant to be playing the same game. I think we should abide by the same rules.

Presenter25:54

So what advantage does that give to say the all blacks? Presumably they can earn an awful lot of money and have an awful lot of time to practise.

Will Carling26:01

Well, certainly if if you go to New Zealand you will see all blacks in adverts in all black gear or posters wearing all black shirts advertising products. Over here we can't do that uh and that leads to a a certain amount of frustration and confusion as to you know why on earth should they be able to do it over there and it can't be done up here. I think it uh makes the game look silly really.

Presenter26:24

And you're not playing on a level playing field.

Will Carling26:27

No, we're not. And I think that's really what the English players are saying, is to the administrators, look, let's have some sensible rules. We could have these rules where you can advertise and endorse, but you don't get paid for playing rugby. Other than that, you can advertise in an England shirt or whatever. That's, as far as I'm concerned, a sensible logical decision.

Presenter26:47

But when you say things like that you come in for criticism which you have done as being money motivated. Will Carling is in it for the money.

Will Carling26:54

Yeah, um you know you're always going to get that accusation. I think if I was in it for the money I would have taken a million pounds and gone to rugby league. I'm not in it for the money, as I said. I never have been. It's not what interests me. But I think the game itself is moving towards that area. Once you put a league structure on the game which the administrators have, that is a professional structure. Once you have a World Cup which gives so much media coverage and you go for huge sponsorship, I think you are already attracting business and money into the game. To think that you can exclude players totally from that, because that's really what fascinates business. That's what fascinates people who want to play rugby, is the players. You know, the game really is the players.

Presenter27:36

Another piece of music.

Will Carling27:37

Number seven is uh Walk of Life by Dire Straits. I remember the actual video of it, which uh has got all sorts of uh mess ups in in sport, and it was just I had so much fun at university. It reminds me of um sort of summer days in in the bar at Durham.

Speaker 427:54

John is singing, I got a woman Down in the tunnel tryna make it play He got the action and he got the motion Well yeah yeah, the boy can play

Speaker 428:05

Dedication

Speaker 428:07

Oh shit, turning on a night time and in the game about a seat or a roll

Speaker 428:13

You saw up as a name

Speaker 428:16

Ready to the wall

Speaker 428:18

You do what I

Speaker 428:20

Get it to the walkout.

Presenter28:24

Dire straits and walk of life. Uh there's no rugby this summer, Will Carling. How hard is it to hold on to the fitness? Um, you know, there's being fourteen stone and being fourteen stone, isn't it? It depends whether it's kind of muscle or fat.

Will Carling28:35

Um no, there isn't there's there's no rugby, there's actually quite a nice break, but uh we get given our training programme for the summer, which in a way is actually harder than the training programme during the season, so

Will Carling28:49

Um

Presenter28:50

But you like eating out in good restaurants, Santo?

Will Carling28:52

Oh yeah, but I'm not allowed creamy sauce, I'm not allowed uh all these things.

Presenter28:56

Can it be true that you prefer a glass of wine to a pint of beer?

Will Carling28:59

Unfortunately it is. I've just never been able to drink a lot of beer.

Presenter29:03

But you were right on champagne.

Will Carling29:05

All right on champagne, although it, you know, does tend to give me a a headache.

Presenter29:09

So there's no you're disappointing a lot of fans out there, you know?

Will Carling29:11

I know, I know, I always do.

Presenter29:14

So there's no rugby this summer and then off you go again and you're all working towards the next World Cup which is in 1995. Do you go on being captain?

Will Carling29:23

Although people sort of said, oh, I was made captain for the nineteen ninety one World Cup, they get the idea that I was made captain whatever. And I think there was a press conference when Jeff has been appointed manager to the next World Cup, and obviously the press said, Well, what about captaincy?

Will Carling29:37

And I think he just said, Well

Will Carling29:39

As far as I'm concerned, as long as Will wants to do it and this form remains, I don't see the need for change.

Presenter29:44

But then you could be captain of England rugby for six years, which must be unheard of.

Will Carling29:49

It must be. It must be a very depressing thought for the players as well. It's three more years of Will Carlin's team talks, but yes, I suppose I I could be.

Presenter29:58

And then you'd be twenty nine. Would you have another World Cup in you after that, do you think?

Will Carling30:03

No, no, I don't think so.

Presenter30:04

Does the body start to crack under the strain?

Will Carling30:06

The body is already starting to crack at the end of the strain.

Presenter30:09

Is it?

Will Carling30:09

Yeah, I would I mean, I'd be delighted to get to the next World Cup. But that would be basically eight years of uh of international rugby. And I don't think it's your age necessarily, it's how long you've been there and what it takes out of you. Um

Presenter30:20

What does it take out of you?

Will Carling30:22

Well I think it is it's the knocks and the bangs, it's the commitment to training and the fact that after a while you're bound to get worn down slightly by it. I mean I I love it, but I think if you if you lose your edge then it's only fair that you know you stop. From a personal point of view it's better that then you get dropped. And there are so many good young players now who are pushing that the slightest weakness and crack that appears and they're in there.

Presenter30:47

Last record.

Will Carling30:48

My last record is by Louis Armstrong. What a Wonderful World. I really got into listening to it when I actually made the decision to leave the army. And I was staying with a friend in Hereford at the time and I remember walking round and round this little walk when I realised that I was going to leave and it was quite sad. And also now whenever, you know, I sometimes think, oh, life's a bit hard, I listen to this, I think it's just a brilliant record.

Speaker 431:12

They'll learn much more than I've ever known.

Speaker 431:18

And I think to myself.

Speaker 431:23

What a wonderful man

Speaker 431:31

I think to myself

Speaker 431:37

What a wonderful.

Presenter31:41

Louis Armstrong singing What a Wonderful World. Well, if you could only take one of those eight records, Will, which would it be?

Will Carling31:47

I think it would have to be the the last one, uh Louis Armstrong. It's a lovely record.

Will Carling31:52

I love his voice as well, and his voice is amazing.

Presenter31:55

And a book, as well as the Bible and Shakespeare, on your island?

Will Carling31:59

I would take The Hobbit. When I read it when I was young, or younger, I just thought it was brilliant. The little idea of this Bilbo Baggins wandering off on his adventures. I thought his adventures were brilliant. His treks around the place and uh

Will Carling32:12

through the forests and the spiders and golem in the caves. I just you know, from then on whenever I went anywhere, I was at prep school or whatever, you know, I was just on an adventure as well. Used to walk to the classroom and I was on an adventure. It was brilliant. And I loved it.

Presenter32:25

Tolkien's The Hobbit and Your Luxury.

Will Carling32:28

My luxury would be uh a flotation tank.

Will Carling32:31

Despite the fact that I'll be surrounded by water.

Presenter32:34

What is it?

Will Carling32:36

It's um it's a a tank basically with about uh a foot of water s but saline solution. It's sound proof, obviously and there's no light. You get in there, you just float, and it is incredibly relaxing. Because after a while you just can't feel any part of your body. You just it's not like lying down or anything like that. And it would just give me a chance to think.

Presenter32:56

Will Carling, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Will Carling32:59

For pleasure.

Speaker 133:08

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists Archive. For more podcasts please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.