Bernice Rubens

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 10:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 10:11

And the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway this week is a novelist. As a child she envied her musically gifted brothers and sister, and wanted only to play the cello. But poverty precluded such a purchase and she became the listener in her family, a role which stood her in good stead when, as a young mother, she sat down to write her first novel. Four books later she won the Booker Prize. Eight years after that she was in the lists again as a runner up.

Presenter0:53

Nevertheless, the human quality she most admires is a sense of failure. That, at least, is striving, she says, and of her own achievements remarks that she's merely a successful novelist who failed to become a musician. She is Bernice

Presenter1:08

Do you believe, then, Bernice, that that writing is far less of an accomplishment than playing a musical instrument?

Bernice Rubens1:14

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens1:15

No, I don't think there are any rules about it. I think this is just a personal choice.

Bernice Rubens1:20

I would rather have become a musician, a cellist.

Bernice Rubens1:24

in other words, than become a writer.

Bernice Rubens1:27

because I get a lot more pleasure.

Bernice Rubens1:30

out of listening to music.

Bernice Rubens1:32

I take music enormously seriously.

Bernice Rubens1:36

In the sense that although I'm a serious writer, I don't take my books seriously.

Presenter1:41

But does that mean that you're not proud of what you write?

Bernice Rubens1:46

Yes, I'm I'm proud of the achievement of having written seventeen novels, but I would give up every seventeen of them in order to play one bar like Rostropovich.

Bernice Rubens1:58

For instance.

Presenter1:59

But uh in that sense, I mean, aren't you author of your own fate by by insisting on playing the cello? I mean, if it was a musical family, there were presumably other instruments there that you could have played.

Bernice Rubens1:59

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens2:10

Yes, the

Bernice Rubens2:12

Except that a cello wasn't available when I was a child. There were violins on offer, because my father was originally a violinist.

Bernice Rubens2:20

And when he came to this country, he came with a full-size fiddle and a half-size fiddle.

Bernice Rubens2:25

And in our family we handed out instruments like

Bernice Rubens2:29

You handed down clothes.

Bernice Rubens2:31

and when the half fiddle was offered to me when my sister grew too big for it,

Bernice Rubens2:37

I passed on that one because the noise of a young violinist practising

Bernice Rubens2:41

It's pretty horrendous, I think.

Bernice Rubens2:43

And I gave it to my brother, who's now

Bernice Rubens2:46

in the London Symphony Orchestra.

Bernice Rubens2:49

I think he probably owes that to me.

Bernice Rubens2:51

So I had to wait for my cello.

Bernice Rubens2:53

and I didn't get one till I was about seventeen.

Bernice Rubens2:56

You must then be going to take some

Presenter2:57

Cello music to your desert island with you. You couldn't live without it.

Bernice Rubens3:00

Couldn't live without it, possibly. Uh No, absolutely. And I would take um Rostropovich playing uh Dvorak's cello concerto. I think he is the greatest cellist.

Bernice Rubens3:09

And and I love the work.

Bernice Rubens3:12

And I would give all my novels just to play one bar like him.

Presenter4:13

Part of the second movement of Dvorak's cello concerto in B minor, opus a hundred and four, played by Rostropovich with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Herbert von Carrian.

Presenter4:24

So writing is second best for you, Bernice. Winning the Booker Prize then, as you did in nineteen seventy, must have come as a bit of a shock.

Bernice Rubens4:31

It came as a shock and a little bit of an embarrassment, because I

Bernice Rubens4:35

didn't take myself all that seriously.

Bernice Rubens4:37

But it did make an enormous difference to my life.

Bernice Rubens4:40

A radical difference, in fact, because

Bernice Rubens4:43

It was the difference between earning a living as a writer and not earning a living.

Bernice Rubens4:48

Um what happened was if you win the booker

Bernice Rubens4:51

You automatically get

Bernice Rubens4:53

paperback and foreign rights.

Bernice Rubens4:55

And I think it's very difficult for an English writer to live off its his English earnings.

Bernice Rubens5:00

Almost impossible, I would imagine. So

Presenter5:02

Yeah. Yeah.

Bernice Rubens5:03

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens5:03

It made a radical difference.

Presenter5:04

But how had you come to writing? Had you suddenly just sat down one day and thought, right, now I'll I'll see if I can get some of those stories out of my head.

Bernice Rubens5:05

Yeah.

Presenter5:13

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens5:13

I don't know. I think it's a difficult question that I think it

Bernice Rubens5:16

A writer

Bernice Rubens5:17

It's born writing.

Bernice Rubens5:19

There's never a beginning.

Bernice Rubens5:21

I remember

Bernice Rubens5:23

When I was a child, I must have been about six or seven, and I was walking up.

Bernice Rubens5:28

our little terrace, and met a neighbour.

Bernice Rubens5:31

And she said to me,

Bernice Rubens5:33

How's your mommy and daddy?

Bernice Rubens5:35

as neighbours tend to say to children,

Bernice Rubens5:37

And I said,

Bernice Rubens5:39

With no rhyme or reason, I said, Ooh, they've gone to South Africa.

Bernice Rubens5:43

Now my parents would have found it very difficult to scrape the money to London, leave alone South Africa.

Bernice Rubens5:49

And then I remember running home and

Bernice Rubens5:52

and desperately trying to keep my parents indoors.

Bernice Rubens5:58

I think that's a pretty big whopper for a seven-year-old to tell.

Bernice Rubens6:03

You've been telling OnePass ever since. I've been telling OnePress ever since. I think that was my debut as a fiction writer.

Presenter6:10

So do you sit down then and simply press some kind of button and let it flow? Is it is it really that easy?

Presenter6:16

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens6:16

Um no, it's not easy, and the interesting thing is it doesn't get easier.

Bernice Rubens6:21

And that's possibly because

Bernice Rubens6:23

I become more selective.

Bernice Rubens6:25

and more self-critical.

Bernice Rubens6:27

I just enjoy writing a lot.

Bernice Rubens6:30

And I sit down and I stay sitting. That's the secret.

Bernice Rubens6:34

Or if you're Hemingway, you stay standing, or if you're Proust, you stay in bed. But the point is, you have to stay at it.

Presenter6:40

You have to do a thousand words at that sitting and then you have a reward or

Bernice Rubens6:45

Oh, no, what I do is if I write a good sentence that I like.

Bernice Rubens6:48

I

Bernice Rubens6:49

Go and treat myself to a little cello play.

Bernice Rubens6:52

To marry Ward really?

Presenter6:53

Should we have your second record? What's that to be?

Bernice Rubens6:56

Um my second record is a recording by my brother Harold of the List Sonata.

Bernice Rubens7:03

He was the eldest of our family, and he was

Bernice Rubens7:07

A child prodigy.

Bernice Rubens7:09

And uh

Bernice Rubens7:10

It's a hard act to follow, you know.

Bernice Rubens7:13

And I remember as a little boy of about six he was sent to London for lessons.

Bernice Rubens7:20

And I can still see his little skinny knees getting on.

Bernice Rubens7:24

to the train in charge of the guard.

Bernice Rubens7:27

And he wouldn't look back at us, and every pore of him was oozing with homesickness.

Bernice Rubens7:33

He must have been so unhappy, and his back was turned to us in a in a kind of offended way, you know, and we were all standing

Bernice Rubens7:41

on the platform, guiltily waving our

Bernice Rubens7:45

Farewells and of course he took no notice, but I'm sure he never forgave us for doing that to him.

Bernice Rubens7:50

He went on to concertise, of course, and he's a wonderful pianist.

Bernice Rubens7:54

And he's playing the list tonight.

Presenter8:56

The List Sonata played by Harold Rubens Your books, Bernice Rubens, are very much about family relationships, mothers and sons, and mothers and daughters, and brothers and sisters.

Presenter9:08

Oppressive love and guilt and failure. Tell me about your your own family. Was it a happy one?

Bernice Rubens9:16

On reflection, yes, it was happy.

Bernice Rubens9:18

But I remember

Bernice Rubens9:20

time filling

Bernice Rubens9:22

Deeply resentful.

Bernice Rubens9:24

Being an outsider in the family in other words, not being the musician

Bernice Rubens9:29

And um

Bernice Rubens9:31

My mother used to say to me, to comfort me, she said,

Bernice Rubens9:34

In a family like ours we have to have a listener.

Bernice Rubens9:38

And

Bernice Rubens9:39

Looking back, of course, it was the greatest gift she gave me.

Bernice Rubens9:42

Because

Bernice Rubens9:43

The ear has to be practised.

Bernice Rubens9:47

as carefully as any fiddle.

Bernice Rubens9:50

and in those growing up years

Bernice Rubens9:52

I listened, and I think that's a wonderful gift for a writer.

Bernice Rubens9:57

who has to listen with skill.

Bernice Rubens9:59

and moreover to enjoy listening.

Bernice Rubens10:02

So in hindsight, yes, it was a happy childhood, but in at its time I remember crying a lot.

Bernice Rubens10:08

Because I was the outsider in a way.

Presenter10:10

Well you were a miserable child.

Bernice Rubens10:12

I think so. When my brothers tell me I was misreporting

Presenter10:15

This was all in Cardiff. The family lived in Cardiff, but not that they were Welsh. Your parents were in fact Jewish immigrants, weren't they? How how had they come to choose Cardiff?

Bernice Rubens10:25

Well, they didn't. Uh the pattern was that you came across Russia.

Bernice Rubens10:30

And you went to Hamburg, which was the setting off point for Europe or America.

Bernice Rubens10:36

My father.

Bernice Rubens10:37

um had a already had a brother in America.

Bernice Rubens10:41

And when he got to Hamburg he asked for a ticket to America.

Bernice Rubens10:45

But Alas got a dishonest ticket who charged him for a ticket to America, but put him on a boat to Cardiff.

Bernice Rubens10:53

And my father, bless him, was in Cardiff for three weeks under the impression that he was

Bernice Rubens10:58

Walkingly

Bernice Rubens10:59

Streets of New York

Bernice Rubens11:02

No doubt he was looking for gold. I don't know.

Bernice Rubens11:04

And my mother was already in Cardiff, of course, and you met her and married her. Was she a musician, too?

Bernice Rubens11:10

Play the piano. Yes, he was a teacher.

Bernice Rubens11:13

And, uh, she played the piano. She

Bernice Rubens11:17

Taught me and my

Bernice Rubens11:19

I'll tell you about the piano.

Bernice Rubens11:22

I look back on that instrument with great affection.

Bernice Rubens11:25

Not because

Bernice Rubens11:27

Of its sound quality I think they were probably second rate.

Bernice Rubens11:30

But it was a very beautiful piece of furniture. It was made of rosewood.

Bernice Rubens11:35

And it had a kind of fretted front.

Bernice Rubens11:38

Behind the frets were silk brocade,

Bernice Rubens11:42

and on each side there were two candles.

Bernice Rubens11:45

It was wonderful to view.

Bernice Rubens11:48

And

Bernice Rubens11:49

Is that a kind of

Bernice Rubens11:50

perfectly yellowish white ivory keyboard.

Bernice Rubens11:54

Except for one note.

Bernice Rubens11:57

which had turned blue, and it looked awfully sad.

Bernice Rubens12:01

It was like a decayed tooth in an otherwise perfect mouth. And were you put to polishing it?

Bernice Rubens12:07

No, I wasn't. It was a very convenient. It was a D.

Bernice Rubens12:11

And it was a very convenient note because it

Bernice Rubens12:13

It was the note.

Bernice Rubens12:15

which began the first piece which I picked out on the piano on my own.

Bernice Rubens12:20

And that was the Paderewski.

Bernice Rubens12:24

MINUET IN G Most of my choices in this programme are to do with family and nostalgia, and nostalgia doesn't necessarily imply good taste, and in fact the minuet is a silly little piece. But if I were to hear it on the island it would ship me right back into my childhood with a certain amount of pleasure.

Presenter13:38

Paderewski playing his minuet, opus 14, number one in G major, and that was recorded in 1906. Can we talk about your mother? How much was she the mother who recurs quite frequently in your books, in The Elected Member and in Madame Suzatska and others? A woman with a smothering love for her children, who's really rather unable to let them go. Is that your mother?

Bernice Rubens14:01

Yeah, so she is slightly exaggerated in all the books, um, that I've written that are kind of modelled on that.

Bernice Rubens14:09

She was in many ways a Jewish mother, but then you don't have to be Jewish to be a Jewish mother, as you know.

Bernice Rubens14:14

But she did personify that kind of

Bernice Rubens14:18

um obsession with her children.

Bernice Rubens14:21

the difficulty she had in letting them go.

Bernice Rubens14:26

and the expectations she had of them.

Presenter14:28

Did she

Bernice Rubens14:28

Uh

Presenter14:28

Ever let you go?

Bernice Rubens14:29

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens14:31

There.

Bernice Rubens14:32

I don't think parents

Bernice Rubens14:34

ever let the children go. Now I'm a mother.

Bernice Rubens14:37

I know.

Bernice Rubens14:39

I find it difficult to let my children go, and I don't think I have. I've written about parents who don't let their children go. What interests me now is children who don't let their parents go as they grow up.

Bernice Rubens14:50

That to me is far more fascinating.

Bernice Rubens14:53

Time.

Presenter14:54

There's also i in your books um

Presenter14:57

a kind of desperate lovelessness about a lot of your characters. Um one thinks immediately of the the spinster Miss Hawkins in a five-year sentence, which was the book that was shortlisted for the booker in nineteen seventy eight.

Presenter15:09

You're not a spinster, but but patiently, from what you write, you know what it's like to be unloved.

Bernice Rubens15:15

I have been loved a great deal in my time. I know what it is like to be rejected.

Bernice Rubens15:20

which is not quite the same as being unloved.

Bernice Rubens15:23

In order to experience rejection you have to experience the love.

Bernice Rubens15:28

That is a preamble to that rejection.

Bernice Rubens15:32

Yes, I

Bernice Rubens15:33

I do write a b

Presenter15:33

about that because I know about that.

Presenter15:35

One should also say really in case we're giving the wrong impression that there's an awful lot of humour in your books as well. Is that something that you it's a kind of wry humour, isn't it? Is that something that you

Bernice Rubens15:44

I think life is pretty ridiculous, you know, and the only way one can survive with any kind of

Bernice Rubens15:50

grace or dignity is but it's seeing the ridiculous side of n of nature and the almost offensive endurance of human beings.

Speaker 415:55

So you have

Speaker 115:55

Or may

Bernice Rubens15:59

that they do suffer a great deal, and yet for some reason they come up for more.

Bernice Rubens16:03

Shall we have your next record?

Bernice Rubens16:05

My next record is um also related to family.

Bernice Rubens16:10

And um my elder daughter, Sharon, is a composer.

Bernice Rubens16:14

She studied at music at York University.

Bernice Rubens16:17

And now she writes songs and uh

Bernice Rubens16:19

Film scores

Bernice Rubens16:21

Um she has formed an acapella choir.

Bernice Rubens16:25

and this is one of her pieces called One Big Tree.

Bernice Rubens16:29

which she is conducting and singing.

Bernice Rubens16:32

In the choir.

Speaker 416:33

One big big tree can hold a thousand birds at any bars. The deep darkest corners of the forest can hold a thousand birds at any bar. Music fills up the deep darkest corners of the forest. One big big tree can play and sing a song for any season. One of just a thousand reasons why it doesn't come along, cut one big tree down.

Speaker 116:50

Balda

Presenter17:08

One Big Tree composed by Sharon Nassar. Being something of an expert then, Bernice, on the on the bondage of love in families and how it can stunt growth, have you conducted your own motherhood well? I mean, have you been a paragon of a mother?

Bernice Rubens17:21

No.

Bernice Rubens17:23

No, but I think I'm a pretty good grandmother. I find that you never l you don't learn.

Bernice Rubens17:30

Um

Bernice Rubens17:31

You think you can do better than your own mother.

Bernice Rubens17:34

But in fact you would do exactly the same. But you've blackmailed your children, have you?

Bernice Rubens17:38

I most certainly did, and they will tell you so.

Bernice Rubens17:41

Um I think they've forgiven me now. We have a good relationship now, but I think no, I wasn't a good mother.

Bernice Rubens17:48

Yeah, but I was like I wasn't worse than most mothers, I know.

Presenter17:51

In your own childhood, though, your two brothers and sister, they're all three professional musicians, aren't they? Um so they weren't stunted by this excessive parental zeal. Do they have as much respect for your writing as you have for their musicianship?

Bernice Rubens18:09

Oh, I think so. Yes.

Presenter18:12

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens18:12

Oh, I th I have that feeling. Yes, most certainly.

Presenter18:15

And do you feel that

Presenter18:17

You could have been as good a musician as they had you had that cello early enough.

Presenter18:24

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens18:24

I think in a way that

Bernice Rubens18:28

Out of all of them I am probably the one who enjoys music more.

Bernice Rubens18:33

Who really enjoys it?

Bernice Rubens18:35

Because I don't do it for a living.

Bernice Rubens18:37

I mean, music to me is a treat.

Bernice Rubens18:40

You know, I treat myself to the cello.

Bernice Rubens18:42

When I can.

Bernice Rubens18:43

And

Bernice Rubens18:45

I think possibly they have a different attitude.

Bernice Rubens18:48

Professionals must have.

Presenter18:51

Uh

Bernice Rubens18:51

Another record.

Bernice Rubens18:53

My next record is the Gavotte from a Bach Partita, because it it reminds me of my young brother, my the my baby brother.

Bernice Rubens19:00

Um when we were children in Wales.

Bernice Rubens19:03

Every year there was nice Deadford.

Bernice Rubens19:06

And uh

Bernice Rubens19:08

My sister and my brother.

Bernice Rubens19:10

was to take part in it, and I remembered the first year my brother was going in for it,

Bernice Rubens19:16

And

Bernice Rubens19:17

He was playing this

Bernice Rubens19:18

Part of the partitta.

Bernice Rubens19:20

and I remember him practising.

Bernice Rubens19:23

Day after day I would listen to him.

Bernice Rubens19:26

And

Bernice Rubens19:28

I

Bernice Rubens19:28

Anticipated

Bernice Rubens19:30

Every time he would stop,

Bernice Rubens19:32

Repeat.

Bernice Rubens19:33

Make a mistake.

Bernice Rubens19:35

I preheard his every sigh,

Bernice Rubens19:40

And

Bernice Rubens19:42

I got to think that the way he played it was the norm.

Bernice Rubens19:46

Oh no, with all the

Bernice Rubens19:49

Mistake

Bernice Rubens19:50

So that when I hear a kind of authorized version by someone like Highfits,

Bernice Rubens19:54

I find it hard to believe a note of it.

Bernice Rubens19:57

Okay, so that's our next choice.

Speaker 420:28

Yeah.

Presenter21:00

Part of Gavat enrondeaux from Bach's Partita number three in E played by Jascha Heifitz.

Presenter21:06

How important is your Jewishness to you now, Bernice?

Bernice Rubens21:10

It is me.

Bernice Rubens21:12

I mean, it's not a question of importance. It's um

Bernice Rubens21:16

It's like saying, How important are you?

Bernice Rubens21:18

Brown eyes.

Bernice Rubens21:20

They're there.

Bernice Rubens21:22

And clearly they

Bernice Rubens21:23

They have a great deal to do with my vision.

Bernice Rubens21:26

I mean I mean optical vision, my writer's vision.

Bernice Rubens21:30

It's a Jewish vision, I suppose, so even if I

Bernice Rubens21:33

Out of all the books I've written,

Bernice Rubens21:36

Only a very few are.

Bernice Rubens21:38

Jewish books. But I suppose

Bernice Rubens21:40

More of them are Jewish in descent.

Bernice Rubens21:43

Because they have a Jewish vision.

Presenter21:44

You were you were born and bred in in Cardiff, as we said. Do you feel, then, any sense of Welshness?

Bernice Rubens21:52

You know, my father used to say to us when we were children, it was a kind of mantra that orchestrated our childhood.

Bernice Rubens21:57

He would say, Remember you are a guest in this country.

Bernice Rubens22:01

although he himself was naturalized, but he felt an immigrant.

Bernice Rubens22:06

And who used to tell us you're a guest? He used to say it all the time.

Bernice Rubens22:09

and I felt a guest until he died

Bernice Rubens22:12

And he's buried in Cardiff?

Bernice Rubens22:14

along with my mother now.

Bernice Rubens22:16

and that six foot of earth gave me a kind of territorial right on the land.

Bernice Rubens22:21

So that I didn't feel a guest any more.

Bernice Rubens22:23

But that took my father's death to make me feel kind of Wales was my home.

Bernice Rubens22:29

And as I grow older, I become more and more Welsh. I love Wales. So you have a sense of belonging now? Absolutely, yes.

Bernice Rubens22:37

Sixth record.

Bernice Rubens22:40

I came to offer a very late in life.

Bernice Rubens22:43

And when you can't do anything.

Bernice Rubens22:45

Late in life, like bad language, for instance, you tend to overdo it.

Bernice Rubens22:49

And I came to operate accident. I was

Bernice Rubens22:53

I do make documentary films.

Bernice Rubens22:55

And I was working for United Nations at the time.

Bernice Rubens22:59

making films about women in rural development, in the third world, and I had an unexpected stopover in Rio, Rio de Janeiro.

Bernice Rubens23:09

and had to wait for a plane and and I went to an opera and

Bernice Rubens23:13

The opera happened to be Don Giovanni.

Bernice Rubens23:15

So I kinda was baptized, starting at the top.

Bernice Rubens23:20

Don Giovanni is a fascinating opera.

Bernice Rubens23:22

It has a fascinating character in it, Donna Elvira.

Bernice Rubens23:25

who is, I suppose, the epitome of uh

Bernice Rubens23:29

Woman is the victim.

Bernice Rubens23:32

She has a kind of chemical masochism.

Bernice Rubens23:34

And she

Bernice Rubens23:36

It's rejected, of course, by the Don, and she whinges and she whines.

Bernice Rubens23:42

She's a right her pen in the arse is Dommero Vera, but she hasn't

Bernice Rubens23:46

Some are the most beautiful.

Bernice Rubens23:48

Aries in the opera. And this is Mitradi, in which he sings about

Bernice Rubens23:52

Her betrayal.

Speaker 423:54

It not even water, it water.

Speaker 424:25

Nothing more than

Speaker 424:39

Oh yeah.

Presenter24:46

Lucia Popp singing part of the Aria Mi Tradi from the second act of Mozart's Don Giovanni, with the Munschne Rundfunk Orchestra, conducted by Leonard Slatkin.

Presenter24:56

Which is your favorite of your seventeen novels, I wonder Bernice?

Bernice Rubens24:59

Uh

Presenter25:00

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens25:00

I think a five-year sentence.

Bernice Rubens25:02

Um, that work.

Bernice Rubens25:04

I mean structurally it works.

Bernice Rubens25:06

An

Bernice Rubens25:08

I'm happy with the theme of it. It's something that

Bernice Rubens25:11

I don't know where it came from. Well, one never knows where a novel comes from.

Presenter25:15

But the central character, Miss Hawkins, the spinster, is is um

Presenter25:20

fundamentally very pathetic, isn't she?

Bernice Rubens25:25

Yes.

Bernice Rubens25:28

His

Bernice Rubens25:29

Sometimes I go to the supermarket.

Bernice Rubens25:33

And I shop and it's strange, although I live alone, I still shop for an army. My trolley is just full.

Bernice Rubens25:42

And in front of me perhaps there's a

Bernice Rubens25:44

A woman who is a Miss Hawkins?

Bernice Rubens25:47

and I can almost predict the contents.

Bernice Rubens25:51

Of her her

Bernice Rubens25:54

Shopping bag. It'll be

Bernice Rubens25:56

Um

Bernice Rubens25:57

Frozen peas, perhaps.

Bernice Rubens26:00

and frozen mincemeat.

Bernice Rubens26:04

and perhaps a frozen piece of fish.

Bernice Rubens26:06

And all this will be covering

Bernice Rubens26:09

Bottle of sherry.

Bernice Rubens26:12

You see that a great deal in in the supermarket.

Bernice Rubens26:15

And I suppose I must have seen it so often I must have wondered

Bernice Rubens26:19

What happens when this lady gets home?

Bernice Rubens26:22

How does she live? She can't lived alone.

Bernice Rubens26:24

And I think the character of Miss Hawkins

Bernice Rubens26:27

Um

Bernice Rubens26:29

came out of that vision.

Bernice Rubens26:31

So although you live alone, you don't measure Yeah. Sub sherry.

Bernice Rubens26:36

No, because I write and I I have things to do and

Bernice Rubens26:39

But I I nevertheless I I know about being alone. I know about loneliness. I've experienced loneliness myself.

Presenter26:47

And do you know about how it can lead you, as it does, Miss Hawkins, into madness?

Bernice Rubens26:52

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens26:55

Yes, I do. You see, the only reason I'm not mad.

Bernice Rubens26:59

Is it my lunacy?

Bernice Rubens27:02

It's channelled into my work.

Bernice Rubens27:04

I think all writers have to be.

Bernice Rubens27:06

Slightly crazy.

Bernice Rubens27:08

to do it at all. But I've got a channel for my

Bernice Rubens27:12

Possible lunacy for my possible alcoholism.

Bernice Rubens27:17

Uh

Bernice Rubens27:19

Whichever way I I may go, I can divert it into a creative source. So I'm lucky.

Bernice Rubens27:26

So you would then not go mad on the desert island, would you?

Bernice Rubens27:30

I don't think I would go mad. Um I would

Bernice Rubens27:34

Make it my business to survive.

Bernice Rubens27:37

You know when a writer is writing a novel,

Bernice Rubens27:40

They believe that they are immortal.

Bernice Rubens27:43

Because death wouldn't have the effrontery to take you away mid sentence.

Bernice Rubens27:48

Say what I would do

Bernice Rubens27:50

I would write a novel in my head on this island, and I would write until the penultimate sentence, and I'd wait for the

Bernice Rubens27:57

sort of a saving sail on the horizon, and then I'd write the last sentence.

Bernice Rubens28:02

And that's the way I I would survive.

Bernice Rubens28:05

Shall we have your next record?

Bernice Rubens28:08

When we grew up

Bernice Rubens28:09

We left university. My sister and I came to Betzer de Land in London.

Bernice Rubens28:14

and I was teaching, and my sister was learning with

Bernice Rubens28:17

Taking lessons with a grade.

Bernice Rubens28:20

um violin teacher at the time, Max Rosso.

Bernice Rubens28:24

and she was learning the Sibelius.

Bernice Rubens28:28

Violin concerta.

Bernice Rubens28:30

and every morning she would wake me up with

Bernice Rubens28:33

her practising and I felt the same

Bernice Rubens28:36

She would kind of plow her lonely, sticky furrow on this Sibelius, and I would anticipate again the mistakes and the repeats.

Bernice Rubens28:44

and again came to think of her rendering as the norm.

Bernice Rubens28:48

So I would like the last movement of the Sibelius to remind me of her.

Speaker 429:22

Uh

Speaker 429:30

Yeah.

Presenter29:55

Part of the last movement of Sibelius' Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. forty seven, played by Jascha Heifitz with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Walter Hendel.

Presenter30:05

You said, Bernice, that you're a serious writer who doesn't take her work seriously. Is it simply then a means to an end, a way of earning money and keeping yourself going?

Bernice Rubens30:16

Yes, I think it's no more than that. I do enjoy it. What?

Presenter30:19

You don't think you're guilty of of taking a a a God-given talent for granted?

Presenter30:24

Just because it's the talent that you didn't want.

Presenter30:27

He wanted the idea.

Bernice Rubens30:27

No, I don't I mean, I work at it. It's not it's not easy and it doesn't get, as I said, it doesn't get any easier. I do work at it. I just would rather have been a musician and that's the long and short of it.

Presenter30:37

Are there no magic moments in your writing when suddenly things fall into place and really perhaps a bit like playing a beautiful piece of music, you suddenly know that you've done something, you've achieved something really rather good, satisfying?

Bernice Rubens30:52

Yes, there are. And it would be silly to deny it. You write something on page three, for instance.

Bernice Rubens30:59

which has no rhyme or reason and no logic at the time.

Bernice Rubens31:03

but is somehow validated on page thirty three.

Bernice Rubens31:07

Now that is a magic moment.

Bernice Rubens31:11

Very rare.

Speaker 131:11

Bray.

Bernice Rubens31:13

And I've stressed the fact that there are because when I talk to

Bernice Rubens31:17

School children about writing or other groups.

Bernice Rubens31:21

I like to take the mythology out of writing. There is no myth or mystery attached to it. It's just a job.

Bernice Rubens31:29

It's a hard job, and it's a chore like most jobs.

Bernice Rubens31:33

Only occasionally are there magic moments, and that's one of them.

Presenter31:36

Yeah.

Bernice Rubens31:37

Yeah.

Presenter31:37

Your last record.

Bernice Rubens31:38

My last record is is the

Bernice Rubens31:42

From the Schubert string quartet in C major, I think the greatest piece of

Bernice Rubens31:46

Chamber music ever written

Bernice Rubens31:49

And insofar as I am ambitious, and I'm not terribly ambitious, but

Bernice Rubens31:53

In so far as I am, I would like to play thee

Bernice Rubens31:57

Um second jello.

Bernice Rubens31:59

of this work.

Bernice Rubens32:01

Um

Bernice Rubens32:02

When I go down to Cardiff, as I do occasionally, when my sister

Bernice Rubens32:06

who has just retired from the Welsh opera.

Bernice Rubens32:08

is still living.

Bernice Rubens32:10

She will rustle up for

Bernice Rubens32:13

Very tolerant and kind.

Bernice Rubens32:16

professional musicians who will sit down with me.

Bernice Rubens32:19

and play the Schubert.

Bernice Rubens32:22

quintet and it is a great moment for me. I played disgustingly badly, but they tolerate me and it is absolutely one of the greatest pleasures.

Bernice Rubens32:32

And

Bernice Rubens32:36

This piece of music actually

Bernice Rubens32:40

It expresses every feeling.

Bernice Rubens32:43

so that if I were to listen to it I would be terribly busy.

Bernice Rubens32:46

experiencing all those feelings.

Presenter33:48

Part of the second movement of Schubert's String Quintet in C major, played by the Hollywood String Quartet and Kurt Reher.

Presenter33:55

And that's the favourite of the eight, is it, Bunnies?

Bernice Rubens33:58

Oh, absolutely. That's the one I would take above all others.

Presenter34:01

And what book would you take as well as Shakespeare and the Bible?

Bernice Rubens34:04

Of course one wants to take persuasion.

Bernice Rubens34:08

Or middlemarch for

Bernice Rubens34:10

A lot of people take that. My feeling is that

Bernice Rubens34:12

The island must somewhere on the island there must be an old copy hanging around.

Bernice Rubens34:17

And the last incumbent.

Bernice Rubens34:19

So I take my chance on persuasion and I would take

Bernice Rubens34:22

Um Dunn's poems and uh sermons.

Bernice Rubens34:26

The Poems for Joy and The Sermons for Solace.

Presenter34:30

And your luxury.

Bernice Rubens34:32

Well actually well since all my records are

Bernice Rubens34:34

Related to nostalgia and family, I would take. I have another daughter, Rebecca, who's a painter?

Bernice Rubens34:40

And I would take one of her paintings and I would be totally surrounded by family and I would feel.

Bernice Rubens34:46

Safe and comfortable.

Presenter34:47

And you'd manage again without that cello, would you?

Bernice Rubens34:51

Listen, I play the cello pretty badly indoors. What it would sound like outside I can't imagine. In any case, no cello would survive the climate, and certainly the strings wouldn't last too well.

Bernice Rubens35:02

So I think no, I would pass on that.

Presenter35:04

Fernes Rubens, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 135:16

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.