Lord Shawcross

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 30:11

And the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is a lawyer and a politician. As the Attorney General in the Labour Government at the end of the last war, he was responsible for leading the British prosecution case at the War Crimes Tribunal in Nuremberg.

Presenter0:41

He also prosecuted, as the convention of the day demanded, the murderer Haig and the traitor William Joyce, better known as Lord Hawhaw. Having served in Cabinet and in opposition, he turned away from active politics at the end of the fifties. Since then, at the bar, in boardrooms, and in the House of Lords, he's established himself as a successful public figure, valued for his skills and his opinions alike.

Presenter1:06

Now, eighty nine, he is one of the few distinguished men of his generation who has not written his memoirs. I have nothing to apologise for, he says, nothing to explain. He is Lord Shawcross. But much to recount, I'm sure, Lord Shawcross. I can't believe you haven't come under some pressure to write those memoirs.

Lord Shawcross1:24

Well, there has been some talk of it, and I've been trying my hand at

Lord Shawcross1:29

A little writing, but I doubt whether anybody will want to publish it.

Presenter1:33

But you've never been shy about putting pen to paper. You write to newspapers and write articles quite a lot of the time. What about those important moments in your life, like the Nuremberg trials, or your leaving of the Labour Party, or the death of a loved one? Have you not in that moment written something down?

Lord Shawcross1:50

No, I've not written anything about those particular things at the time. To write a successful memoir is a rather different matter. You have to have sex, sensation, and secrets. I've got no sex that I'm going to disclose.

Lord Shawcross2:06

No secrets that I am prepared to give away, and therefore no sensations. I think it would be very dull.

Presenter2:13

I'm sure it wouldn't be. But sending you to a desert island maybe you might begin to write it, do you think?

Lord Shawcross2:18

I might indeed, if I had pen and paper, yes.

Presenter2:21

Will you mind being alone on this desert island?

Lord Shawcross2:26

Well, not terribly, I think. No, I'm.

Lord Shawcross2:29

not a very gregarious person.

Lord Shawcross2:33

I've spent a good deal of my life alone now, and um

Lord Shawcross2:37

I think I can take it.

Presenter2:41

How will you use music then on your island? Will you use it to to to comfort you or to restore you or just to bring back memories?

Lord Shawcross2:49

Well, both the comfort, I think, and um to remind. I'm very fond of music.

Lord Shawcross2:54

I know nothing about music really, but I listen to a lot of

Lord Shawcross2:58

Men the classical music.

Lord Shawcross3:01

And um I shall enjoy the opportunity of being able to do that.

Presenter3:05

So what's the first one that you'll play?

Lord Shawcross3:08

Norma, perhaps. I knew Maria Callas a little.

Lord Shawcross3:12

And she was a very nice woman.

Lord Shawcross3:15

And a very great singer.

Lord Shawcross3:17

And um

Lord Shawcross3:20

It reminds me of happy times with my second wife. We

Lord Shawcross3:26

When we were alone we often played records of this kind.

Speaker 23:41

You could do it all the way to soul.

Speaker 23:55

Yeah.

Speaker 24:03

In it to see.

Lord Shawcross4:13

BOOOOOO

Speaker 24:35

Yeah.

Presenter5:19

Maria Callas singing part of the aria Arbello ame ritorna from Belline's Norma, with the orchestra and chorus of La Scala Milan, conducted by Tullio Seraffine.

Presenter5:29

Going back to when you were a small boy, Lord Shawcross, before the First World War, you you didn't have any formal education, did you? Did your parents not believe in it?

Lord Shawcross5:40

Well, my parents um believed in a great deal of

Lord Shawcross5:44

Freedom

Lord Shawcross5:45

I was encouraged to read, but I can't remember ever having been formally taught to read. I didn't go to school at all until I was twelve.

Presenter5:54

Was it not was it not the law, then, that children should go to school?

Lord Shawcross5:54

Was it not a

Lord Shawcross5:57

Ah, yes, it was the law, I remember that very well.

Lord Shawcross6:00

because we then lived in on Clapham Common.

Lord Shawcross6:04

and I recall walking one day in the streets round Clapton Common and being stopped by a man who said he was a school inspector.

Lord Shawcross6:12

And he said, Why aren't you at school? This was about eleven o'clock one morning.

Lord Shawcross6:17

And I said, I don't go to school. He said, Don't show.

Lord Shawcross6:21

What's your name and address?

Lord Shawcross6:23

So I gave him my name and address, and he said, Oh, well, that's different, and walked away.

Presenter6:28

What it it was all right for people like you.

Lord Shawcross6:30

Yes, I'm afraid so.

Lord Shawcross6:32

In those days.

Presenter6:33

But you did eventually go to school when you were twelve.

Lord Shawcross6:35

Yes, I went to Dulwich College.

Presenter6:38

How long did it take you to catch up with the other boys?

Lord Shawcross6:42

Oh, no time.

Presenter6:43

Or were you ahead of them?

Lord Shawcross6:44

Yes.

Presenter6:45

You were, well

Lord Shawcross6:45

I think it's a very good idea.

Presenter6:47

And then it was only a few years later, wasn't it, when you were sixteen, that you decided to join the Labour Party. Now, why did you do that?

Lord Shawcross6:55

Well, I think I've been struck by the great contrast.

Lord Shawcross6:58

in the borough of Wandsworth.

Lord Shawcross7:01

between people who lived in fairly nice and comfortable houses and the poorer people who

Lord Shawcross7:08

still lived in what were virtually slums.

Lord Shawcross7:11

And

Lord Shawcross7:13

I was sentimentally moved by this.

Presenter7:15

And and you became the party agent, I think, in Wandsworth, didn't you? About nineteen eighteen.

Lord Shawcross7:19

Yeah.

Lord Shawcross7:20

I did, at the first election immediately after the war.

Lord Shawcross7:25

for a man called Silkin, who later on became

Lord Shawcross7:29

a Minister of Town and Country Planning and a colleague of mine in the nineteen forty-five government.

Presenter7:35

So were you determined, even at that age, at the age of sixteen, to go into politics one day?

Lord Shawcross7:40

Yes, I had it very much in mind, undoubtedly, at that age.

Presenter7:44

Uh

Lord Shawcross7:44

Yeah.

Presenter7:44

Strange then, isn't it, really, that you didn't enter Parliament until, what, some twenty five, twenty seven years later, in that Labour Government of'forty five. Why did you leave it so long?

Lord Shawcross7:54

Uh my first wife was from

Lord Shawcross7:58

The beginning of our marriage very seriously ill.

Lord Shawcross8:02

And that occupied my time very much, and

Lord Shawcross8:07

made it essential for me to earn enough money to see cheap.

Lord Shawcross8:12

got proper treatment. She had to go to Switzerland for two years and all the operations and so on. All this was expensive.

Presenter8:19

Can I ask you what was wrong with her?

Lord Shawcross8:22

Poor woman, she had almost everything, but in the end she had

Lord Shawcross8:27

Disseminated sclerosis.

Lord Shawcross8:29

But she had several.

Lord Shawcross8:31

Very bad operations.

Lord Shawcross8:34

Before then.

Presenter8:35

But you were married, uh, weren't you, for nineteen years to her and uh and and then she died.

Lord Shawcross8:38

Yeah.

Presenter8:41

How old would you have been then? About forty?

Lord Shawcross8:44

Yeah.

Presenter8:44

Once you die.

Lord Shawcross8:44

Once you died.

Presenter8:45

But hmm.

Lord Shawcross8:46

I was, um, forty one, yes.

Presenter8:49

You must have been heartbroken.

Lord Shawcross8:53

Yes, I was. It was a under.

Lord Shawcross8:57

A long chapter, which had been a very happy chapter in my life, although.

Lord Shawcross9:03

in some ways very sad. It hadn't been an ordinary marriage at all, but we'd been very good.

Lord Shawcross9:09

Companions

Lord Shawcross9:11

And I was very sad.

Presenter9:14

Shall we have your second record there?

Lord Shawcross9:16

Could we have the

Lord Shawcross9:18

The word irrequiem, perhaps it's an appropriate

Lord Shawcross9:21

Seemed to have at this moment she was a Roman Catholic.

Lord Shawcross9:26

And um

Lord Shawcross9:28

Um Elizabeth Hotchkoff is a very fine singer.

Presenter9:33

And and it it brings back memories of your first wife, is

Lord Shawcross9:37

It does, yes.

Speaker 29:45

Yo stay

Speaker 29:53

With the horrible Door is left through

Presenter10:56

Part of the Agnes Dei from Verdi's Requiem sung by Elizabeth Schwarzkopf and Christa Ludwig, with the Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus, conducted by Carlo Maria Giulini.

Presenter11:08

You were a very successful lawyer by the time your first wife died, Lord Shawcross. How did you come to choose the law as a profession in the first instance?

Lord Shawcross11:18

Well, my parents intended me to be either a doctor or a lawyer.

Lord Shawcross11:23

and I was intr attracted by medicine.

Lord Shawcross11:26

Which I think is

Lord Shawcross11:28

by far far more useful profession

Lord Shawcross11:31

and I entered a hospital, but I had some months before I could actually start, and so my parents sent me to Switzerland.

Lord Shawcross11:39

The man French.

Lord Shawcross11:42

and um I attended some lectures at the university and had um a very agreeable time.

Lord Shawcross11:49

and during it I went to some conference.

Lord Shawcross11:53

that was set up there of what was called the Socialist International.

Lord Shawcross11:59

and acted as a translator from French to English or English to French.

Lord Shawcross12:04

and there I met Herbert Morrison, who was one of the delegates, and he strongly advised me if I was interested in politics, as I told him I was.

Lord Shawcross12:14

to go to the bar rather than to

Lord Shawcross12:16

Going for medicine.

Lord Shawcross12:18

So I sent my parents a telegram saying that was what I was going to do.

Presenter12:22

Eventually, of course, you were you were to cut quite a dash at the despatch box, weren't you?

Lord Shawcross12:28

Well, I don't know that I'd say that.

Presenter12:30

A handsome Hartley Shawcross, they wrote in nineteen forty, is the best looking man in public life.

Presenter12:37

Did you enjoy that kind of attention?

Lord Shawcross12:39

Yes, I'm sure I did.

Presenter12:41

Di didn't you once uh stop Woodrow Wyatt from writing some article about your physical attributes?

Lord Shawcross12:47

Oh, that led to terrible trouble, yes. This was much later on, in the nineteen sixties, I think. The first I heard of it was when one of my friends in Sussex rang me up one Sund Sunday morning.

Lord Shawcross13:00

and said, How's the Superman this morning?

Lord Shawcross13:03

I didn't know what on earth he was talking about, so I asked asked him, and he said, Haven't you seen your Sunday Express?

Lord Shawcross13:11

They're announcing that Woodrow Wart is going to write a series of articles about you starting next week.

Lord Shawcross13:18

Entitled Shawcross Man or Superman

Lord Shawcross13:23

So I said I hadn't the faintest knowledge of it.

Lord Shawcross13:27

and I did my utmost to stop it, because it would have done me very great harm at the bar.

Presenter13:33

And you managed to stop it, did you?

Lord Shawcross13:35

Well, only with the intervention of um Winston Churchill and various other men

Lord Shawcross13:42

friends, as they then become, who intervened with Lord Beaverbrook, then the other newspapers.

Lord Shawcross13:49

felt they'd been outraged by this interference of the freedom of the press.

Lord Shawcross13:54

and one of the other newspapers published a series of articles.

Lord Shawcross13:58

But by that time it was so well known that I had done my best to stop it that it didn't matter much.

Presenter14:04

Shall we have your third record there?

Lord Shawcross14:06

Rain and Spain, yes. Well, that

Lord Shawcross14:09

Comes into, so to speak, the second.

Lord Shawcross14:12

chapter in my life.

Lord Shawcross14:14

Um

Lord Shawcross14:16

I went to the first night of that.

Lord Shawcross14:18

Slow was remembered of the most spectacular occasion.

Presenter14:21

So happy memories, this one.

Lord Shawcross14:23

Yes.

Speaker 214:23

Yeah.

Lord Shawcross14:24

Yeah.

Speaker 214:24

The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain.

Speaker 214:31

The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain.

Speaker 214:38

Again the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain.

Speaker 214:44

I think she's got it, I think she's got it.

Speaker 214:48

The rain in Spain stays plainly in the plain. By George, he's got it. By George, he's got it. Now once again, where does it rain? On the plain, on the plain. And where's that soggy plain?

Speaker 215:05

In Spain, in Spain, the rain is made in the bay. The rain is made in the babe.

Speaker 215:20

In Hartford, Hereford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly happened.

Speaker 215:28

How kind of you to let me come! Now once again, where does it rain?

Speaker 215:34

On the plane, on the plane. And where's that blasted plane?

Speaker 215:39

In spin, in spring, the man

Presenter15:44

Julie Andrews and Rex Harrison and Rain in Spain from My Fair Lady.

Presenter15:49

You eventually became an MP, Lord Shawcross, in nineteen forty five, and Clement Attlee almost immediately made you his Attorney General, which meant that you had to represent Britain at the Nuremberg trials.

Presenter16:02

Can you recall the atmosphere in that courtroom in the Palace of Justice in Nuremberg, where there were some twenty of Hitler's closest aides in the dock?

Lord Shawcross16:11

Yes, the atmosphere was solemn.

Lord Shawcross16:14

Dignified, very dignified.

Lord Shawcross16:17

And um

Lord Shawcross16:19

Everybody, really, with the exception of Hess, behaved very well.

Lord Shawcross16:25

I recall Goering in particular. He was obviously a very remarkable character.

Lord Shawcross16:31

Very able.

Lord Shawcross16:33

And he'd got a sense of humour.

Lord Shawcross16:36

Indeed, the difficulty was not to catch his eye.

Lord Shawcross16:40

Because sometimes in the course of a long trial like that something would go wrong.

Lord Shawcross16:45

And if you looked out of the corner of your eye, Goering was sitting over there.

Lord Shawcross16:49

and caught his eye he would shake his head

Lord Shawcross16:53

And it was difficult not to laugh,'cause one couldn't do that, so one had to be very careful.

Presenter16:59

Of course Goering in the end um he was sentenced to death, wasn't he? But he committed suicide an an hour before the hanging.

Lord Shawcross17:06

Yes.

Presenter17:07

By taking a a cyanide pill. Did you feel in any way b cheated by that, that he had escaped?

Lord Shawcross17:13

No, I remember it very well because I was sailing to um

Lord Shawcross17:18

New York, on the Queen Elizabeth, I think.

Lord Shawcross17:21

with one of the judges, as it happened. We weren't together, but we talked to each other a lot.

Lord Shawcross17:27

and we happened to be together when we got a wireless message to say that Goething had committed suicide.

Lord Shawcross17:34

and the judge, Norman Burkett, was very upset.

Lord Shawcross17:38

and said um he's cheated justice, it's terrible and I laughed and I'm afraid and said good luck to him.

Lord Shawcross17:46

I was against capital punishment, of course, and

Lord Shawcross17:49

I didn't mind the fact that he'd killed himself rather than been killed.

Presenter17:54

But did you think there w could have been any other end for those who were found guilty? And when you say you're against capital punishment, what other fitting end could there be?

Lord Shawcross18:01

Oh, there couldn't have been any other end. That was the law at that time.

Lord Shawcross18:06

Death for murder

Lord Shawcross18:07

and um I was part of the administration of the law, as it were, and I had to accept that. I quite um recognized that they must be sentenced to death. Some of them were sentenced to terms of imprisonment.

Lord Shawcross18:21

But

Lord Shawcross18:22

The worst ones were sentenced to death and it was a just sentence.

Presenter18:26

Shall we have record number four?

Lord Shawcross18:29

Yes, well that is um the Moonlight Sonata.

Presenter18:33

Why would you like that?

Lord Shawcross18:35

Well, I'm very fond of Beethoven. I've got all the sonatas and a great deal of his other work.

Lord Shawcross18:41

And I think this is a very beautiful one, well played by Solomon.

Lord Shawcross18:46

I often listen to it now.

Presenter19:47

Part of Beethoven's piano sonata number fourteen in C Sharp Minor, the Moonlight Sonata, played by Solomon.

Presenter19:54

You've argued long and hard over the past eighteen months, Lord Shawcross, against the war crimes bill, under which Nazi criminals can be brought to trial in this country. Indeed, the Lords threw out the bill, didn't they, last year? Nevertheless, it's now become law. Why do you believe it to be an unworkable piece of legislation?

Lord Shawcross20:14

Well, it'll depend on evidence of identification.

Lord Shawcross20:18

Going back forty-five years.

Lord Shawcross20:20

and it's notorious, certainly amongst all practising lawyers,

Lord Shawcross20:25

that evidence of identification even after four days

Lord Shawcross20:30

Is the most frail of all forms of human testimony.

Lord Shawcross20:34

Moreover, you have to consider this from the point of view of the defendants.

Lord Shawcross20:40

They may want to prove

Lord Shawcross20:42

that the identification is wrong.

Lord Shawcross20:45

and for that purpose they may want to get evidence of witnesses from the countries where these crimes were committed.

Lord Shawcross20:54

and they will have no chance, as far as I can see.

Lord Shawcross20:57

of putting up a defence, for instance, of an alibi, that they were somewhere else at the time.

Lord Shawcross21:03

Or evidence that uh although the crime took place it was somebody else who did it.

Presenter21:09

But do you think it's right that war criminals, if they're still alive, should escape justice simply because

Presenter21:16

It's all too difficult.

Lord Shawcross21:19

Well, you know, we decided after

Lord Shawcross21:22

A great deal of thought and discussion in nineteen forty seven and forty-eight.

Lord Shawcross21:27

that we'd bring the trials to an end.

Lord Shawcross21:30

Nobody was more

Lord Shawcross21:33

vigorous than I was in urging that the trials should be speeded up and that more people should be brought to justice, the military took a rather different view, and they were very slow about it.

Lord Shawcross21:46

and in the end public opinion

Lord Shawcross21:48

turned against the trials.

Lord Shawcross21:51

Our people were thinking more of reconciliation and building up Germany.

Lord Shawcross21:56

Winston Churchill said we must draw a sponge across the whole thing.

Lord Shawcross22:01

And not forget it.

Lord Shawcross22:03

But um

Lord Shawcross22:05

Allow it to lie.

Lord Shawcross22:07

and in the House of Commons at that time not a single voice none of the Jews nobody.

Lord Shawcross22:14

raised a voice against that decision.

Presenter22:17

So, are you saying then that if anyone is brought to trial today, in a sense?

Presenter22:22

It will be their bad luck that they happen to be still alive, that they will be randomly plucked, whereas before the line was drawn and they escaped.

Lord Shawcross22:27

As before.

Lord Shawcross22:30

Yes.

Lord Shawcross22:31

Justice delayed is justice denied, that's an old maxim of our law.

Lord Shawcross22:37

And it's, on the whole, very true.

Presenter22:40

Next piece of music.

Lord Shawcross22:44

Well, the next run, perhaps, is a little more cheerful.

Lord Shawcross22:48

Puchin is Turandot. I heard this in Hong Kong last year.

Lord Shawcross22:53

and was tremendously impressed by their all wonderful voices.

Lord Shawcross23:00

I travel a great deal.

Lord Shawcross23:02

and I happened to be there when it was I suppose it was being broadcast from Rome at the time.

Presenter23:08

The three tenors singing in Rome.

Lord Shawcross23:10

Yes.

Lord Shawcross23:11

And the Canisala and Rhyme.

Lord Shawcross23:21

Uh

Speaker 223:24

Let me slab it.

Speaker 223:44

Leave a war.

Speaker 223:47

Uh

Presenter24:33

Luciano Pavarotti, Placido Domingo, and Jose Carrera singing Nessundorma from Puccini's Turundotte, singing it in Rome last year.

Presenter24:42

Let let's go back to your political career, Lord Shawcross. You remained an MP for only thirteen years. You were in government under Attlee, as we've been saying, for the first five of those, and then in opposition for the rest of the time. What put you off then? Was it the frustration of opposition or disenchantment with the Labour Party?

Lord Shawcross25:00

Both.

Lord Shawcross25:01

I was gradually getting disenchanted with the Labour Party.

Lord Shawcross25:05

Also.

Lord Shawcross25:07

reading my speeches in the beginning I was

Lord Shawcross25:11

A red hot socialist, I gradually came to realize that socialism wasn't working.

Lord Shawcross25:19

and even in the first five years

Lord Shawcross25:22

In Parliament.

Lord Shawcross25:23

in the Labour Government.

Lord Shawcross25:25

I was modifying my views and becoming a much more moderate

Lord Shawcross25:31

The Labour Party then

Lord Shawcross25:33

Towards the end of that period,

Lord Shawcross25:36

I thought ought to be as the Labour Party is to day.

Lord Shawcross25:40

They've reformed now, but they've taken rather a long time about it.

Lord Shawcross25:44

Um

Lord Shawcross25:46

But the other thing I disliked about opposition

Lord Shawcross25:49

was that I was expected to speak from the front bench on the opposition side.

Lord Shawcross25:55

My last position in Government had been that of President of the Board of Trade.

Lord Shawcross26:01

Let's say

Lord Shawcross26:02

Secretary of State for Trade and Industry they call it now, and I was supposed to oppose him.

Lord Shawcross26:09

and I had to oppose him virtually on everything he proposed, although I knew perfectly well that in many cases not in all but in many cases it's exactly what I would have done myself if I'd been in his position.

Presenter26:23

Because a lot of people, as they saw you moving to the right at the time, thought that you might in fact cross the floor of the house, didn't they? Didn't they call you so shortly floor cross?

Lord Shawcross26:29

Yeah.

Lord Shawcross26:31

Yes, I did. I think that was

Lord Shawcross26:34

Probably Winston Churchill's.

Lord Shawcross26:37

invention. At any rate he mentioned it um

Lord Shawcross26:40

I note one of my friends with great joy.

Presenter26:43

Did it sting you that?

Lord Shawcross26:43

If it's

Lord Shawcross26:45

No, I laughed at it. I never did cross the floor.

Lord Shawcross26:49

Completely.

Presenter26:50

But you you were you resigned from the Labour Party itself, or you drifted away from the Labour Party?

Lord Shawcross26:54

I drifted away, yes.

Presenter26:56

But perhaps in that sense in spirit you were the first member of the SDP, were you?

Lord Shawcross27:01

In a way I was, yes, I did actually join the STP eventually.

Lord Shawcross27:07

and I was very sorry that it broke up.

Lord Shawcross27:11

I think it would have had a part to play.

Presenter27:13

But personally, you've sat on the crossbenches for many decades now, and you're that's exactly where you're happy sitting, isn't it?

Lord Shawcross27:22

Yes, I prefer to sit on the cross benches. There are good things in both parties.

Presenter27:27

Some more music.

Lord Shawcross27:29

I remember the singing of some enchanted evening very well.

Lord Shawcross27:34

Because it became later on a kind of

Lord Shawcross27:37

Signature tuned for me and my

Lord Shawcross27:39

My wife, this is my second wife, of course.

Lord Shawcross27:43

Whenever we went to

Lord Shawcross27:45

A night club which existed then called the Four Hundred, the Bandleader.

Lord Shawcross27:50

A man called Maurice Smart, who's dead now.

Lord Shawcross27:54

I still exchange Christmas cards with his widow.

Lord Shawcross27:57

struck up, um, some enchanted evening because he knew that my wife and

Lord Shawcross28:03

I had a sentimental

Lord Shawcross28:06

Attraction for that song

Lord Shawcross28:08

And so I associate it very much with

Lord Shawcross28:12

Another happy chapter of my life.

Speaker 228:18

Torm Enchanted Evening

Speaker 228:23

We see a strange joy

Speaker 228:28

We see a stranger, a closer crowd.

Speaker 228:35

And some out

Lord Shawcross28:36

Come on.

Speaker 228:40

Oh even though

Speaker 228:44

That's a wedding again.

Speaker 228:55

Some enchanted evening.

Speaker 229:00

Someone may be laughing

Speaker 229:05

When we were laughing, oh to lose on to love.

Speaker 229:12

And night after night

Speaker 229:17

As strange as it seems, the sound of a laughter will sing in.

Speaker 229:27

Good.

Presenter29:30

Ezio Pinza singing Some Enchanted Evening from the original production of South Pacific and Memories of Your Second Wife, Joan. You'd been married for thirty years, I think, when she was killed in a a riding accident in nineteen seventy four. Yeah.

Presenter29:46

Did did that loss and the ending for a second time of a very happy marriage make you feel that that life had dealt you a pretty poor hand?

Lord Shawcross29:59

It did, of course.

Presenter30:01

Is is the fact that you you live alone perhaps one of the reasons that you go on working so hard?'Cause you work every day, don't you?

Lord Shawcross30:07

Work every day.

Lord Shawcross30:09

Well, I think that um

Lord Shawcross30:11

It's really essential.

Lord Shawcross30:13

to go on working hard if you'll

Lord Shawcross30:16

Want to live at all?

Lord Shawcross30:18

In my sort of situation it's

Lord Shawcross30:20

Something I just have to do.

Lord Shawcross30:23

I'm sure if my wife had lived um

Lord Shawcross30:27

we might have arranged things quite differently.

Lord Shawcross30:31

But I've seen so many people retire.

Lord Shawcross30:34

Apparently in the best of health. The next thing one reads they've gone to rusticate in the country. Next thing one reads about them is that they're obituary notice.

Presenter30:45

So no rustication for you. You turn up every day at a firm of bankers, I think, in the city, don't you?

Lord Shawcross30:49

Yes, I do.

Presenter30:51

You're you're eighty nine now. Uh do they require you to retire, or do you go on as long as you like?

Lord Shawcross30:58

They're a wonderfully loyal organization, quite extraordinary.

Lord Shawcross31:03

I used to send them a letter of resignation every October for the last

Lord Shawcross31:08

Oh, eight years or so.

Lord Shawcross31:10

and about two years ago the then chairman of the bank,

Lord Shawcross31:15

Wrote back to me. I remember the letter very vividly.

Lord Shawcross31:18

and said your October letter gives me a sense of timelessness.

Lord Shawcross31:23

We um have a rule.

Lord Shawcross31:25

About retirement, it's sixty four.

Lord Shawcross31:29

ordinary members of the staff, sixty five for directors, and sixty for me as chairman.

Lord Shawcross31:37

We've decided to introduce a rule for shorecross, and that'll be ninety.

Lord Shawcross31:43

But last year in uh Hong Kong the then chairman said that they decided to extend it to a hundred. So in practice I go on.

Lord Shawcross31:54

As long as they're willing to help me then.

Presenter31:57

Record number seven.

Lord Shawcross32:00

Um

Lord Shawcross32:02

Well, record number seven is um

Lord Shawcross32:05

This rather sad thing from La Boheme.

Lord Shawcross32:11

That brings back unhappy memories.

Lord Shawcross32:15

In contrast to what I've been saying.

Speaker 232:24

Say none of you miscarriage.

Speaker 232:53

Uh

Speaker 233:28

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Speaker 233:36

Yeah.

Presenter33:45

Placido Domingo and Montserrat Caballier and the death scene from the final act of Puccini's Laboem.

Presenter33:52

It's traditional, I'm sure you know, Lord Shawcross, to ask people of your age for their regrets. Do you have any that you'd care to share, either professional or personal?

Lord Shawcross34:05

Well, I have a lot of regrets, certainly, but I don't think I'd care to share them now.

Lord Shawcross34:12

Um

Lord Shawcross34:14

I've had um

Lord Shawcross34:17

On the whole the

Lord Shawcross34:18

A very happy life. I'm not at all proud of my life.

Lord Shawcross34:24

But I'm

Lord Shawcross34:27

In many ways I'm

Lord Shawcross34:30

undeservedly happy now, I suppose. I've got three children who are

Lord Shawcross34:34

or very close to man.

Lord Shawcross34:37

and of whom I see a great deal.

Lord Shawcross34:41

And um

Lord Shawcross34:43

That's why I remain on.

Lord Shawcross34:46

keeping of a country home.

Lord Shawcross34:49

which is still regarded by all of them as their basic home, and they come back to it whenever they can.

Presenter34:56

So you'd be uh you'd be game for escape from the desert island if only to come back and see all of them?

Lord Shawcross35:02

Yes, I should.

Lord Shawcross35:03

It is really a desert island, is it?

Presenter35:05

Mm-hmm.

Lord Shawcross35:06

No beautiful girls on it.

Presenter35:08

No beautiful girls, no

Lord Shawcross35:09

Too bad.

Presenter35:10

All alone.

Presenter35:12

Just the record. Shall we have the eighth one of them?

Lord Shawcross35:18

The eighth one is um.

Lord Shawcross35:20

Uh

Lord Shawcross35:21

Oh, my papa

Lord Shawcross35:23

which I've been talking about, my children, perhaps, is.

Lord Shawcross35:26

Appropriate. The reason I put it down was, um

Lord Shawcross35:31

that when they were young, still at school,

Lord Shawcross35:34

on half terms or other half is I

Lord Shawcross35:38

My wife and I used to take them for dinner at a restaurant in Shepherd's Market.

Lord Shawcross35:43

and in this restaurant there was a gallery in which there was a little string orchestra.

Lord Shawcross35:48

And they always played Oh, My Papa.

Lord Shawcross35:51

When we came in, so I have a sentimental feeling for that one.

Speaker 236:06

Oh my Papa.

Speaker 236:11

To me was so wonderful, oh my Papa.

Speaker 236:21

To me he was so good.

Speaker 236:26

No one could be so gentle and so lovable Oh my Papa He always understood

Speaker 236:45

God are the days when he would take me on his knee.

Speaker 236:56

And with a smile, He changed my tears to laughter, Oh my Papa.

Speaker 237:10

So funny, so adorable.

Speaker 237:20

Okay. Money Mm-hmm.

Presenter37:22

His way

Presenter37:25

That was A. D. Fisher singing your song to you there. I'm not sure if it was um reminiscent of a string orchestra in Shepherd's Market, but it was the nearest we could find.

Presenter37:34

Yeah.

Lord Shawcross37:34

Yes, sir. Whether my children thought I was wonderful was another matter, but just

Presenter37:41

Well now which of those which of those eight records would be your favorite on the island?

Lord Shawcross37:41

Well now which of those?

Lord Shawcross37:48

Oh, that's a very difficult question. I think probably the, um

Lord Shawcross37:52

Some enchanted evening.

Presenter37:54

And memories of wonderful nights out.

Lord Shawcross37:56

Yeah.

Presenter37:57

And what about your book? I think you must know that we've got the Bible and Shakespeare.

Lord Shawcross38:01

Ah, yes, well, I should certainly take Harold Macmullen's advice and take a trollop to bed.

Lord Shawcross38:07

I'd take the one I'm in the middle of reading now for the second time already.

Lord Shawcross38:12

and the way we live now.

Lord Shawcross38:14

And it's an extraordinary novel.

Lord Shawcross38:18

It's very applicable to the present time and a wonderful

Lord Shawcross38:23

Sketch of Life in the Second Half of the Last Century.

Presenter38:27

And what about your luxury?

Lord Shawcross38:29

I want to have um

Lord Shawcross38:32

A disc player and radio powered by a solar battery.

Lord Shawcross38:38

So that I can listen to the records and listen to

Lord Shawcross38:42

News to the world, in spite of being on a desert island.

Presenter38:45

Well, you'll get a wind up grammar phone anyway, the old fashioned kind, to play the records on, but your luxury would be a radio on top of that, would it?

Lord Shawcross38:52

Yeah. I'd like the discs, I think the discs are so much better and they last, of course, very much longer than the records.

Lord Shawcross38:59

I think on a sandy desert the ris records would all get quickly worn out.

Presenter39:03

Your luxury is a compact disc player with a radio.

Lord Shawcross39:06

With a radio, yes. And a solar battery, of course.

Presenter39:09

Incoming messages only.

Lord Shawcross39:12

Yes, I understand that.

Presenter39:15

as long as you're prepared to abide by the rules.

Lord Shawcross39:17

Well, I shall have to.

Presenter39:19

Lord Shawcross, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Lord Shawcross39:23

Thank you.