Gordon Pirie

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 10:11

This is a recording of Desert Island Discs as it was being broadcast, rather than the studio recording.

Speaker 10:17

And for that reason you may hear some interference and some degradation in the sound quality.

Speaker 10:24

Unfortunately, this programme, recorded in nineteen sixty three, is missing Roy Plumley's original introduction. Roy's castaway in this edition is The Athlete Gordon Pirry.

Presenter0:36

Who had any experience of Desert Island?

Gordon Pirie0:38

Yeah.

Presenter0:38

Uh

Gordon Pirie0:38

Well yes, I've been through the Pacific three times. I've seen desert islands from the ship and from the plane and and been in Fiji and Canton Island, Hawaii. Not quite the kind of desert island we're talking about there.

Presenter0:53

But you've got a vague idea of the feeling of of a desert island.

Gordon Pirie0:55

Deserted, hot, and the noise of the sea on on the reef.

Presenter1:00

Well the loneliness of the long distance runner is is well known, especially to you. How do you think you could face the indefinite loneliness of a desert island?

Gordon Pirie1:09

Well, I think I would be pretty lonely because I miss all my friends, but on the other hand at times I'm always alone when I'm running a long way, so I I'm more or less trained to a certain extent, but I'd I think I'd be very lonely.

Presenter1:21

Now what do you want these records to do for you on the Desert Island? Evoke the past? Or just pass the time away or think for the future?

Gordon Pirie1:28

Well I think

Gordon Pirie1:30

Uh yes, some of each. Uh they evoke memories, uh moods and hopes. I think that's putting it briefly.

Presenter1:39

What's the first one you've got there?

Gordon Pirie1:40

Well I got this wonderful record of Nori Paramours, the very thought of you.

Presenter1:44

And what does that do?

Gordon Pirie1:46

Well, surely that's sh my wife and myself heard a lot of this record um when we're on our extended honeymoon in Australia, and it always brings back nostalgic memories.

Gordon Pirie2:05

And not forget to

Presenter2:28

Norrie Paramour in his orchestra, the very thought of you. What's your second choice, Gordon?

Gordon Pirie2:33

Well I've chosen a record which um reminds me of England, I think marching soldiers and and sort of raising the flag. I mean that that's at the athletics you see the flag going up and I don't like the national anthem, but pomp and circumstance I think should be it.

Speaker 12:46

Mm-hmm.

Presenter3:50

Part of Elgar's first Pomp and Circumstance March, Sir Malcolm Sargent conducting the London Symphony Orchestra. Gordon, where were you born?

Gordon Pirie3:58

In Yorkshire, Leeds, that's quite a long time ago now.

Presenter4:02

How early in your boyhood did you share promise as an athlete?

Gordon Pirie4:06

Well uh my father being an international runner and uh secretary of this famous club Southland and Harriers always had uh running you know going in the family and uh although I didn't really run seriously till the age of eleven we used to walk miles and miles in the Surrey Hills. Even when we were about six, five even we would walk twenty miles on a Sunday.

Presenter4:17

Yeah.

Presenter4:28

There you go.

Presenter4:30

Apart from your father, was there any other particular person who inspired you to want to get to the top?

Gordon Pirie4:35

Oh, a lot of people, but one in particular I'd mention, of course, um, Emil Zatopec. I saw him run in the Olympic Games after following his career at a distance in magazines, and he really inspired me to do something different.

Presenter4:50

You ran for the RAF during your national service. When did you first run for Britain?

Gordon Pirie4:55

Uh nineteen fifty one.

Gordon Pirie4:58

There's an amusing story looking back. I didn't know I was going to be chosen for Britain as a result of winning the National Six Mile Championship and I had a very large envelope turned up in the post one morning with a Britain vest. I was very surprised and proud of this and I used to stand in front of the mirror with it on before I went to work in the morning and if anybody came up the stairs I'd take it off very quickly.

Presenter5:22

What was your first world record?

Gordon Pirie5:24

Um six miles world record in nineteen fifty three.

Presenter5:29

How many have you held now?

Gordon Pirie5:30

Five altogether.

Presenter5:31

The three thousand and the five thousand meters, I know.

Gordon Pirie5:33

Yes, uh and uh three thousand meters on another occasion, the four times fifteen hundred meters relay under six mile, you said that. And another occasion I nearly had a world record. I ran twenty two and a quarter miles but lost by a hundred yards. That broke the existing record, actually for twenty miles as well.

Presenter5:37

Yeah.

Presenter5:52

Yeah.

Presenter5:53

How many of these records do you still have?

Gordon Pirie5:55

Oh none. They've all disappeared. I think that's the routine with records.

Presenter6:00

When did you do your first four minute mile?

Gordon Pirie6:03

Uh nineteen sixty, immediately after the Olympic Games in Rome. And I believe um at the time of doing it I was the oldest the old the the greatest age

Presenter6:14

Yes. A mile, of course, is a sprint to you.

Gordon Pirie6:17

Yes, virtually. It's it's much too short.

Presenter6:20

Is there a psychological stimulus to record breaking and nobody can break the four minute mile, then one person does it and a lot of people can do it.

Gordon Pirie6:28

Well, I think uh the wrong picture has been painted with regard to this sudden revolution in running records. And I go back and say that a man like Zatopec, under other influences, started people in into a completely new phase of uh training that was to run every day, which was unheard of before 1948, and uh not only to run every day but to run say thirty miles every day. And this brought about the sudden upsurge in record performances, one of which on the way was the four-minute mile.

Presenter7:01

Well let's have record number three. What have you got next?

Gordon Pirie7:04

Well, Scandinavia and the friend of mine with a beard always remind me of uh Nina and Frederick, so I've chosen one of their records by Mir Bist Duch.

Speaker 27:14

Buy me best to shake

Speaker 27:19

Let me explain.

Speaker 27:22

By me, this to shame means that you're grand

Speaker 27:30

By me this to shame

Speaker 27:34

Again

Speaker 27:36

I'll explain.

Speaker 27:38

It means that you're the f ⁇

Presenter7:40

The fairest in the land.

Presenter7:44

Nina and Frederick by Mir Bistouchen.

Presenter7:47

Now Gordon, you've represented Britain three times in the Olympic Games, always of course with the same double, the 5,000 metres and 10,000 metres. What is that? About 3 and 6 miles, yes.

Gordon Pirie7:57

What's the problem?

Presenter8:00

What happened at your first Olympics, the 1952 Games in Helsinki?

Gordon Pirie8:05

Well, I was a bit young. I ran myself sick and silly, trying to keep up with Zatopec. And uh second Olympic Games in Melbourne I had

Presenter8:11

Yeah.

Presenter8:14

You did get fourth in the in the five thousand metres. Yes, I was fourth. Well, that's nothing to be ashamed of, is it?

Gordon Pirie8:16

Yes, yes.

Gordon Pirie8:20

No, but one always hopes. And at Melbourne, 56? I had this tremendous duel, I think the hardest race of my career with Vladimir Kutz, who one of us had to die and I died with about less than a mile to go in the six-mile race and finished tenth, I think. And then I was second in the 5000m race.

Presenter8:35

Yeah.

Presenter8:40

She came back with a silver medal.

Gordon Pirie8:41

Yes, yes.

Presenter8:42

And 1960 in Rome you became a bit unstuck.

Gordon Pirie8:45

Well, I think I was getting too old and

Presenter8:48

Or it was rather hot, I don't know which. Well, you had a lot of rather pertinent things to say at that time about the handling of the team arrangement.

Gordon Pirie8:55

Well, I think the Rome Olympics were a tragedy for the British runners as a whole, that in the middle distance and distance events.

Presenter9:02

And this

Gordon Pirie9:04

All of us should have reached the final, for example, in the five thousand metres, but none of us could run anywhere near our best.

Presenter9:11

You hadn't had a chance to be a climatiser.

Gordon Pirie9:12

Well, we were there three days from about I think it was about fifty eight degrees in London. When we arrived in Rome it was a hundred and six in the shade. Wow. But in nineteen sixty one

Presenter9:23

You decided that you'd like to turn professional.

Gordon Pirie9:26

Well, not really. I'd been running since a very, you know, young I mentioned eleven. I was I think twenty years of running and you have to call it a day sometime. And I'd written this book, Running Wild, which was due out. And if I hadn't turned pro I would have been

Gordon Pirie9:43

Shot to the recording.

Presenter9:44

You made the rather shattering remark, what's the difference? You've been a professional for years.

Gordon Pirie9:50

Oh yes, I mean I think back in fifty two I went on a bus, you see, and the conduct said I'm not taking your fare, you're Gordon Perry, so that that tuttons

Gordon Pirie9:59

Might be a professional.

Presenter10:00

Well, I want to ask you some questions about this, but let's have another record first. Let's have number four.

Gordon Pirie10:05

Well, I have a lot of connections with Spanish civilization, you know, the bull ring and being in South America.

Presenter10:11

Creating a

Presenter10:13

Your first professional race was in a bull ring, wasn't it?

Gordon Pirie10:15

Yes, th that's a bit of a joke. But uh anyway, the uh record I've chosen always reminds me of this and uh of course Katerina Valenti is a wonderful performer.

Gordon Pirie10:26

So I've chosen her singing El Cumbanchero.

Speaker 210:45

Oh yeah.

Speaker 210:57

Tul pompachero, pompo serro que silva!

Presenter11:02

Caterina Valente with her brother Silvio.

Presenter11:05

El cumbanchero.

Presenter11:07

Gordon, when you left school, what job did you take up?

Gordon Pirie11:11

Well I went into Lloyd's bank,

Gordon Pirie11:14

Which uh

Gordon Pirie11:15

I think I had many enjoyable years with them. Very fine sports club. We had a quite a good team there.

Presenter11:21

Yes. But you will have to give up banking in order to run.

Gordon Pirie11:25

Well, I didn't need to because I did manage to run World Records while I was in the bank. But I found it easier.

Gordon Pirie11:32

to uh do more running when I left the bank.

Presenter11:35

In other words, you were you were a top amateur athlete, competing all over the world. Your expenses were paid, but between meetings, how did you keep yourself? Did you have a private income?

Gordon Pirie11:44

No, I didn't. I used to work and also I used to rough it, Shirley, myself, that is.

Presenter11:49

Yeah.

Gordon Pirie11:50

And uh we've often camped out, slept in the back of the car and you know, when people at home have been saying, Oh, they're having a wonderful time in Timbuktu or somewhere, there we'd be, you know I can remember when we're in Norway on one occasion we had this uh Norwegian fellow's big dog, a Reisen Schnauer's a sledge-pulling dog. We were knocking on the tradesman's entrance of the very posh hotel in Bergen, asking for food for the dog and this very solemn butler came out with a silver tray and a a tin of soup and bones for the dog.

Presenter12:23

Yeah.

Gordon Pirie12:24

Uh

Presenter12:24

So during your peak years you weren't able to start any kind of professional career, you weren't able to advance yourself in your profession?

Gordon Pirie12:31

Well, not really at all. I I look look back and regret this really. I had an opportunity to go to America on a scholarship and I think

Gordon Pirie12:39

I ought to have taken that opportunity. But I I although I've sacrificed a lot, I think I've gained more than I've given up.

Presenter12:45

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Presenter12:47

And what are you up to now, Gordon? You have a scheme for getting fat stomachs off business, men. What's all this about?

Gordon Pirie12:52

Electric.

Presenter12:53

Uh

Gordon Pirie12:54

Putting it a bit crudely actually. Um we uh have started uh an advisory service for business executives on fitness. I think this is a big problem nowadays. That's one of the activities I'm doing. I'm training athletes and tennis players and uh I'm starting sports equipment business and uh

Presenter13:15

You're very busy.

Gordon Pirie13:16

Yes.

Presenter13:17

But but you're still keeping fit, you're still running a lot yourself.

Gordon Pirie13:20

Yes, well uh when I'm training athletes I believe in being able to run with them. And we actually run round Richmond Park, a big group of us, Sunday mornings for about three hours. Girls as well managed to do this.

Presenter13:29

Manage to do this.

Gordon Pirie13:30

Uh

Presenter13:30

Annie? Where have we got to? Number five now.

Gordon Pirie13:33

Well

Gordon Pirie13:34

And when I go to the cinema, you know, it's very uncomfortable with long legs. The only film I've ever watched through was uh The Tales of Hoffman, and I was so impressed I sat through it twice, and I've chosen Bar Carole.

Presenter14:44

The Barker roll from The Tales of Hoffmann, Georg Schulte conducting the orchestra of the Royal Opera House Garden Garden, and waltz number six.

Gordon Pirie14:51

Je regrette rien, ideas.

Presenter14:54

What?

Gordon Pirie14:55

Uh

Gordon Pirie14:56

Well this uh I heard it so many times without knowing who it was singing it when I've been driving up and down the length of the continent and uh to me uh it uh brings back memories of you know driving around and being in France a lot and the continent in general.

Presenter15:16

Holy yada holy yada!

Presenter15:24

Calamari, Tala Mesoa, Oro

Presenter15:32

Sacomo Sa.

Gordon Pirie15:34

Perfect one

Presenter15:43

Nourge no Regret Rien sung by Didit Piaf.

Presenter15:47

How well equipped would you be as a castaway? Could you look after yourself all right?

Presenter15:51

Yeah.

Gordon Pirie15:51

Um

Gordon Pirie15:53

Well, I haven't had a lot of training looking after myself, because uh Shirley looks after me pretty well. I'm probably a little bit lazy in that respect.

Presenter16:01

But you wouldn't have Shirley here. Could you build a shelter of some kind?

Gordon Pirie16:05

Yes, I think I could build a shelter, but looking back again to Norway, that this Swearer Fjolstad, this Norwegian chap, could sleep out in the forest in the snow and frost. And I think merely You have to train your body again to become used to exposure.

Presenter16:19

Nature's a thermostat.

Gordon Pirie16:21

I think so.

Presenter16:21

Yeah. Could you live off the land? Could you feel it?

Gordon Pirie16:24

Yes, I think this would suit me admirably because I I prefer to have natural foods, fruit and and salads, I hope. I suppose I could get turtles' eggs on the beach and go fishing. I know I've tried fishing a lot in Norway and I only ever caught one fish about four inches long. I was so upset I threw it back in.

Presenter16:45

Uh Would you try to escape? Would you try to make a crowd?

Gordon Pirie16:48

I don't think so because I think the sharks I've seen so many sharks in the Pacific and I'd hate to be

Presenter16:54

Uh

Gordon Pirie16:54

A leg

Presenter16:55

Less. That's a nasty thought. Let's get back to music. What's number seven?

Gordon Pirie16:59

Well, I've got um Petula Clark.

Gordon Pirie17:01

A wonderful artist, I always think singing Shario.

Gordon Pirie17:07

Shot

Speaker 217:23

Juver de Mole

Speaker 217:27

La compagnier au boudi

Presenter17:30

Jules

Speaker 217:31

Uh

Presenter17:32

Lesson wait venue.

Presenter17:36

The Tula Clark Shario. And now we come to your last one.

Gordon Pirie17:40

Well you know music I feel always brings out some uh mood and I think this last record is one which should smooth you down after you've been racing round the island chasing I don't know what there is to chase and so I chose uh Claire de Lune by Debussy.

Presenter18:00

Yes, would you like it on the piano or an orchestra playing a script?

Gordon Pirie18:02

I like a lot of strings and different instruments. It gives more depth to the music.

Presenter19:10

Stokovsky conducting Debussy's Claire de Lune.

Presenter19:14

If we would only take one of these eight records, which would it be?

Gordon Pirie19:17

I think the first one, the very thought of you, Maury Perramore.

Presenter19:21

And one luxury to take with you.

Gordon Pirie19:24

That's a difficult question, of course, but I I think motor cars, the luxury in civilized living that I would miss. I'd like to take one, have it on a plinth on the island. Uh th th then I could uh remember the terrible traffic jams that I'm missing.

Presenter19:39

And one book to take with you.

Gordon Pirie19:41

I I'd uh like to take something that demands a lot of concentration and attention. My choice would be Gray's Anatomy.

Presenter19:49

So that you could learn how the body works. Yeah.

Gordon Pirie19:51

Yes, and it would last a an awful long time.

Presenter19:54

Right. Well, thank you, Gordon Pirrie, for letting us hear your choice of desert island discs.

Gordon Pirie19:59

Well, thank you for having me.

Presenter20:00

Goodbye, everyone.

Presenter20:12

The guest in today's recorded programme was Gordon Pirry, the interviewer Roy Plumley and the producer Monica Chapp.

Speaker 120:20

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio form.