Fred Zinnemann

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 30:12

And the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway This Week is a film director. Born into the magnificence of Imperial Vienna at the beginning of this century, his early ambition was to be a musician.

Presenter0:39

But, inspired by the work of men like Eisenstein and Strohim, he chose the cinema instead, and in nineteen twenty nine emigrated to the United States. His career since then is a living history of Hollywood. He's won five Oscars and worked with all the great names, from Spencer Tracy and Grace Kelly to Vanessa Redgrave and Sean Connery. His twenty one feature films include some of the most popular and durable ever made films such as High Noon, From Here to Eternity, Oklahoma, and A Man for All Seasons. He is Fred

Presenter1:14

Do you feel those films of mister Zinnaman and so many more The Nun Story and The Day of the Jackal do you feel they're still very much a part of you, or are they just labels that people pull out with your name?

Fred Zinnemann1:27

They are part of me, of course, but uh it's the distant past. Uh at my age, I'm eighty three, it's all very far away, really.

Presenter1:36

Do you have them all on tape? Do you watch them?

Fred Zinnemann1:39

I don't watch them if I can help it. I sometimes look out of curiosity when I've played on the T V.

Presenter1:45

But you don't have them recordings of them tucked away in a cupboard somewhere.

Fred Zinnemann1:49

I have two or three. I have uh

Fred Zinnemann1:51

I have Hanone because somebody gave it to me, and I have Oklahoma because I like the music.

Fred Zinnemann1:57

But by and large I don't spend too much time on reminiscing.

Presenter2:01

But of course you might never have been a film director. As I was saying, you you uh might have been a a doctor or a physician indeed if your parents had had their way.

Fred Zinnemann2:09

That's right, yes.

Fred Zinnemann2:11

Uh the reason for that was that in in Vienna you have to have the title of doctor if you want to amount to anything. You have to be a doctor of something, uh whether it's theology or philosophy or medicine or whatever. My father was a doctor, but after the First World War times were very difficult for physicians. There were too many of them.

Fred Zinnemann2:34

And so the family decided I ought to study law.

Fred Zinnemann2:39

And I must say I hated it. I found it intensely boring. Instead of going to lectures, I went to movies.

Presenter2:46

But before you were inspired by the cinema, I think you you really wanted to be a musician, didn't you?

Fred Zinnemann2:51

Yes, that was my first uh love, so to speak. Uh

Fred Zinnemann2:56

In in Austria, as you probably know, everybody plays one instrument, at least. My father was a very, very good viola player. We used to have a lot of chamber music at home.

Presenter3:06

But what instrument did you play?

Fred Zinnemann3:08

I tried to play the violin with disastrous results. My baby brother, who was two years old, would burst into tears each time I played the violin, and we also had a small fox terrier who would howl.

Fred Zinnemann3:22

And this was very discouraging.

Fred Zinnemann3:24

You can love music without

Fred Zinnemann3:26

Music loving you back.

Presenter3:28

So what record would be the first that you would put on your record player, your wind-up gramophone on the desert island?

Fred Zinnemann3:33

You will wind up.

Fred Zinnemann3:35

One of my earliest impressions is uh a

Fred Zinnemann3:39

Piece by Mozart, which my father, who played the viola, and my violin teacher played together. It's a it's a piece for orchestra, but they played it just as it went, because obviously there was no orchestra in the house. But it's a beautiful, beautiful thing, and and that's what woke me up, so to speak.

Presenter4:58

Joseph Suck playing part of the first movement of Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante in E flat major, with the Prague Chamber Orchestra.

Presenter5:07

So Vienna, before the First World War, Fred Zinnemann, music was a way of life, you said you were steeped in it. Tell me about the atmosphere after the war, as opposed to before. How did it change?

Fred Zinnemann5:18

What was really difficult was that

Fred Zinnemann5:21

The Austrians themselves, the Viennese especially, couldn't get used to the idea of not having an empire. It was a little bit like

Fred Zinnemann5:30

What happened here after England lost the colonies? I found that people

Fred Zinnemann5:37

For quite a while I couldn't get used to the ideas that it was an empire any more.

Presenter5:41

So there was a huge amount of nostalgia for um

Fred Zinnemann5:43

There was enormous nostalgia. People were looking back to the good old days and and couldn't get going.

Presenter5:50

And self pity?

Fred Zinnemann5:50

And so

Fred Zinnemann5:52

enormous self-pity, enormous self-pity, and also a refusal to look ahead. And they were like a bunch of canary birds.

Fred Zinnemann6:02

Sitting in a cage, the door was open, but they wouldn't fly out.

Presenter6:07

And what of anti-Semitism? How blatant was that in Vienna?

Fred Zinnemann6:11

Anti-Semitism is something that's endemic in Austria. It's always been there.

Fred Zinnemann6:16

And when there is a crisis, it flares up.

Presenter6:20

So it flared up then in nineteen eighteen and on into the twenties. How much did you and your family suffer as a result?

Fred Zinnemann6:28

It it wasn't really suffering, it was just more the feeling of being an outsider in the sense that while you were

Fred Zinnemann6:37

educated exactly as they

Fred Zinnemann6:40

Non-Druid.

Fred Zinnemann6:41

Kids.

Fred Zinnemann6:42

There was nevertheless some sort

Fred Zinnemann6:44

Over distance b between us.

Fred Zinnemann6:48

And there were gradually there were snide remarks being made and gradually fist fights. Then boys started coming in with swastikas in the lapels. I remember saying to one of them, Aren't you ashamed to wear this? and it's he said, I'm proud of it.

Fred Zinnemann7:04

And it just gradually came to that, but it was still very far on the horizon, and Hitler was a man originally. People laughed at him.

Fred Zinnemann7:13

They thought it hurt crazy.

Fred Zinnemann7:15

And it gradually changed.

Presenter7:18

So you during this time were a a a young boy in your teens and you were to to get out and escape from it all, as as we'll hear. But I wonder how much that whole experience, that that Austria of your youth,

Fred Zinnemann7:21

Team Vision, yes.

Presenter7:32

Influence the rest of your life.

Fred Zinnemann7:34

It's a very good question. I think it influenced me enormously.

Fred Zinnemann7:38

Because I always felt drawn to subject in which the

Fred Zinnemann7:43

Leading character is some sort of an outsider.

Fred Zinnemann7:49

But it doesn't quite belong and sometimes doesn't want to belong, or sometimes it's even against.

Fred Zinnemann7:56

But the the theme of the outside

Fred Zinnemann7:59

Uh is Soviet

Fred Zinnemann8:00

I always it works on me.

Presenter8:03

Shall we have your second record?

Fred Zinnemann8:04

Right.

Fred Zinnemann8:05

This is something I really wanted to talk about briefly.

Fred Zinnemann8:11

The conductor at the time was the king of all conductors, foot wrangler.

Fred Zinnemann8:15

And we had uh what they call an abon monde, which me which meant that you could go every week and listen to this. And I remember a footwangler, after he had played the Ninth Symphony, I went to ask him for an autograph and he gave me the autograph and patted me on the head. And this was his central experience in my life. And I didn't wash my head for about three weeks after that.

Presenter9:40

The Ode to Joy from the final movement of Beethoven's Symphony No. Nine with the Bayreuth Festival Chorus and Orchestra conducted by Wilhelm Furtwengler.

Presenter9:49

So the young Fred Zinnemann was bored to tears with his studies for the law, couldn't do justice on the violin to his beloved music, and went to the cinema instead. What kind of films were popular at that time?

Fred Zinnemann10:03

Chaplin was enormously popular.

Fred Zinnemann10:05

Garbo's first two films had come out and she was an overnight sensation.

Fred Zinnemann10:11

There were a number of German films that were also very popular. Some excellent German directors would come up. And so was uh Saint John of Arc, which was a great, great masterpiece because Karl Dreyer, who was a Dane, Danish director. And Eisenstein, who had already introduced the whole concept of mortars, making films based on the editing.

Speaker 210:21

Whose film was that?

Fred Zinnemann10:34

various films of that kind. King Vido was another man who had he had done the big parade, which was a great hit at that time. The second part of that today is still a masterpiece.

Presenter10:47

So what was it that you saw in those films that made you know you wanted to spend your life in the cinema?

Fred Zinnemann10:54

I just had a feeling that I could contribute in some way, that I could make it

Fred Zinnemann11:00

Go, make it work.

Presenter11:01

But your your parents, your family, were very dubious about it, weren't they?

Fred Zinnemann11:05

Well, you can't be a doctor as a film director, you know, th there was no doctorate of film so

Presenter11:11

No no hair, Dr. Eisenstein.

Fred Zinnemann11:12

Yeah.

Fred Zinnemann11:14

Nothing like that. And also at that time people looked down on films, you know, they they thought it was sort of ill repute.

Presenter11:21

Didn't they also think that you rather fancied the cinema because you fancied the girls?

Fred Zinnemann11:25

My mother did, yes, absolutely, of course.

Presenter11:28

Was there some truth in that?

Fred Zinnemann11:29

Um

Fred Zinnemann11:31

Up to point, yes.

Presenter11:33

Well, so they let you go to Paris eventually, didn't they? To to study cinematography?

Fred Zinnemann11:36

They don't

Presenter11:38

Um that was nineteen twenty seven, and you were twenty years old.

Fred Zinnemann11:40

That's right.

Fred Zinnemann11:42

That's right.

Presenter11:43

And eighteen months later you sailed for America.

Presenter11:46

Did you ever see your family again?

Fred Zinnemann11:48

Yes, I came back in nineteen thirty one.

Fred Zinnemann11:52

for about a year uh because Robert Flaherty, known as the grandfather of the documentary,

Fred Zinnemann11:59

I said I could be his assistant if I came back from Hollywood to Europe, which I did.

Fred Zinnemann12:05

And I worked with him for about six months.

Fred Zinnemann12:09

and I learned more from him than from anybody else.

Fred Zinnemann12:13

Even though the film never happened.

Fred Zinnemann12:15

And even though we didn't really do much work other than test cameras.

Fred Zinnemann12:20

Mostly we sat and drank beer in the Adelon Hotel bar, and sitting there listening to him, I was influenced sufficiently by what he was about to become a maverick director.

Presenter12:34

But you took that opportunity of being back in Europe to revisit your family in Guyana.

Fred Zinnemann12:38

Yes, yes. And they also came to see me in Berlin. So the that was the last time I saw them. And if you don't mind, I would just as soon not talk about the rest of it because they all wound up in Auschwitz. And and this is I I'd prefer just to leave it alone if you don't mind.

Presenter12:39

Nineteen thirty-one.

Presenter12:56

Let's pause there and have some music then, shall we? What's your next record?

Fred Zinnemann12:58

What's going on?

Fred Zinnemann12:59

That is a piece of music that made a tremendous impression on me when I first heard it.

Fred Zinnemann13:05

because it seemed to be a new language in music.

Fred Zinnemann13:08

So that it somehow contributed to my feeling about music.

Fred Zinnemann14:15

It's almost as though he had

Fred Zinnemann14:18

We were prophesying what was going to happen in the twentieth century when you listen to that music.

Presenter14:23

That was the opening of Mahler's Symphony No. two in C minor, played by the Philemonia Orchestra conducted by Otto Klemperer. Let's talk about you arriving in New York. You were twenty two years old. What were your first impressions?

Fred Zinnemann14:38

I was overwhelmed. It it what happened was that I arrived on Black Thursday, which was the day of the that started the Great Depression.

Fred Zinnemann14:47

And around the corner from where we were docking, the stockbrokers were jumping out of the windows.

Fred Zinnemann14:54

So that was rather ominous.

Presenter14:56

But within two weeks of arriving in the United States, I think you set out for the very home of movie making itself, for Hollywood, didn't you?

Fred Zinnemann15:02

You see how far?

Presenter15:03

Did you have anything or any one to recommend you?

Fred Zinnemann15:06

Yes, I had one introduction to the head of Universal Studios.

Fred Zinnemann15:11

who is a gentleman by the name of Carl Lemley.

Fred Zinnemann15:14

I came and saw him and he was terribly nervous, didn't know what to do with me and pushed a button and the casting director came in who took me over and said, have you been in the German army? And I said, I was too young. And he said, well, never mind, we we are making a war picture and you can be in it. And so I became a German soldier and the picture was all quiet on the Western Front. And I was there for six weeks and then talked back to the assistant director and got fired.

Presenter15:42

So you might have been it might have been Fred Zinniman the actor, might it have been

Fred Zinnemann15:45

Never, never.

Presenter15:47

Was that your one and only experience of being in front of the game?

Fred Zinnemann15:50

Yes, yes.

Presenter15:51

What was the first film that you directed, actually, all on your own?

Fred Zinnemann15:56

But it was a pure documentary of the life of fishermen in the Gulf of Mexico. It was supposed to be an educational film because in those days

Fred Zinnemann16:09

People in Mexico didn't know much about each other. They were very isolated and the the then government, which was very progressive, wanted to educate the fishermen about how the miners lived and s and so forth.

Presenter16:23

So your your whole beginnings, apart from a a brief appearance in All Quiet on the Western Front, w was was documentary training?

Fred Zinnemann16:30

The start was documentary, yes.

Presenter16:33

And do you think that that has influenced your approach to film making for the rest of your life?

Fred Zinnemann16:36

So making sure the rest.

Fred Zinnemann16:38

Enormously, because for instance in the nun's story, not being a Catholic, I didn't know very much about it.

Fred Zinnemann16:45

And while the church in the beginning was not very forthcoming,

Fred Zinnemann16:50

For very good reasons, they later became very generous.

Fred Zinnemann16:53

And I spent one whole year in preparation.

Fred Zinnemann16:57

Two

Fred Zinnemann16:58

Get the feeling of the rhythm.

Fred Zinnemann17:00

of how it all worked. And the rhythm in a curious way is one of the most important things that you have to study because it's different in every country.

Fred Zinnemann17:11

And the behavior of people is different in every country. If you if you take an example of two cars.

Fred Zinnemann17:17

Collide have a small collusion.

Fred Zinnemann17:20

In England.

Fred Zinnemann17:21

or in Rome or in Paris.

Fred Zinnemann17:24

I in Rome you'll see people jump out, terribly excited, threatening to kill each other and then backing off. In England they are very polite and they take note of the insurance.

Fred Zinnemann17:36

and Paris declutter it.

Fred Zinnemann17:39

Uh

Fred Zinnemann17:40

And things like that, you know, you you get

Fred Zinnemann17:43

so that you can be in an empty street and very far away you can see a man and a girl talking to each other.

Fred Zinnemann17:49

You can tell.

Fred Zinnemann17:51

whether he has tried to persuade her to go to bed with him.

Fred Zinnemann17:54

Oh, this is ask him not to leave her.

Fred Zinnemann17:58

Or whether they're just in love or they already have been together for a long time.

Fred Zinnemann18:03

And you can see it just in the way they stand. You don't have to hear it.

Presenter18:07

One of your great films, High Noon.

Presenter18:09

Um

Presenter18:10

It's actually quite a kind of factual approach you have there, a documentary approach you have there, don't you? Because the the lighting is very flat. Gary Cooper was very unglamorous, really. He was a a middle-aged man with a problem, wasn't he?

Fred Zinnemann18:22

Yes, quite right. It's a w I I did want to make it look as though it was a newsreel. And you saw the white sky and and a flat lighting and a very grainy texture. And fortunately the cameraman was very brave.

Fred Zinnemann18:39

Because after the second day of

Fred Zinnemann18:41

shooting the there were complaints about the loss of photography.

Fred Zinnemann18:47

And it wasn't I who was paying his salary, so he was really defying the front office.

Fred Zinnemann18:52

And he kept right on, doing what we had agreed. It didn't buckle, didn't compromise.

Presenter18:57

Let's have some more music.

Fred Zinnemann19:00

Well, it's it's by Gallupi and it's a piano sonata played by Chilangeli.

Fred Zinnemann19:05

A very simple piece of music which I love dearly is also a

Fred Zinnemann19:11

Piece of music which my wife likes very much.

Presenter20:07

Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli playing the opening of Gallupi's Sonata No. five in C major.

Presenter20:13

You used, Fred Zinnemann, quite a few unknown actors early on in your career. Your second feature film, The Search, starred an unknown called Montgomery Clift, and after that came The Men in nineteen forty nine with a fellow called Brando. Now why did you want to do that? Why did you want these unknowns?

Fred Zinnemann20:31

To talk about Clift first, we were making a film called Research, which was to deal with

Fred Zinnemann20:37

Children who had come out of concentration camps, etc., one of whom is picked up by an American soldier.

Fred Zinnemann20:45

And this was not the kind of theme that was suitable for a star, and the star would have killed it anyway, because people would have looked at it as a vehicle.

Fred Zinnemann20:55

And it wouldn't have added up to anything. So we needed somebody unknown.

Fred Zinnemann21:00

And I was fortunate enough to, through a friend of mine, Peter Vertel, to hear about

Fred Zinnemann21:06

A young stage actor by the name of Montgomery Clift.

Fred Zinnemann21:10

And I met Clift and found him absolutely marvelous. And

Fred Zinnemann21:15

The script called for a soldier who was an engineer in the engineering thing, and he insisted on being with the engineering outfit, not just being in the army.

Fred Zinnemann21:25

They had never been in the army.

Fred Zinnemann21:27

Anyway, he did so well that when the film was finally shown.

Fred Zinnemann21:32

Someone said to me,

Fred Zinnemann21:34

Where did you find a soldier who could act so well?

Presenter21:37

It's a great compliment.

Fred Zinnemann21:38

It's a great compliment, yes.

Presenter21:40

What about Brando? Did was he as careful in his

Fred Zinnemann21:42

Well, in the case of Brando, who had just been very successful.

Fred Zinnemann21:47

On the Broadway stage.

Fred Zinnemann21:49

He came out.

Fred Zinnemann21:51

trusting nobody had heard horror stories about

Fred Zinnemann21:54

Hollywood and was very much on the defensive.

Fred Zinnemann21:57

but eventually loosened up. Anyway, he also, being a a method actor, prepared himself so thoroughly that he spent three weeks on the ward with paralyzed war veterans.

Fred Zinnemann22:11

with the result that only doctors and nurses knew that he was not really a paraplegic. Nobody else could tell the difference.

Fred Zinnemann22:20

Some of these

Fred Zinnemann22:21

boys were able to go out in town and he went

Fred Zinnemann22:25

With them with one group.

Presenter22:27

In a wheelchair.

Fred Zinnemann22:28

Anyway they all came and went in wheelchairs and had their drinks and came back.

Fred Zinnemann22:32

As you may know, California always was known for having a lot of religious freaks. On this particular day the group was in a bar and the woman who had had too much drink came in and spotted the group and came and sat on the bar stool and told them

Fred Zinnemann22:49

If they had any faith in God they would all walk.

Fred Zinnemann22:54

The boys said well, talk to him, pointing to Brando.

Fred Zinnemann22:59

And Brandog, I'm told, gave it a performance of his career. He all he did was look doubtful.

Fred Zinnemann23:06

And just that shadow of a doubt made the woman very eager to talk to him, and the more she talked, the more doubtful he got.

Fred Zinnemann23:14

And after a while everything started slowing down because people became aware of it. And everybody looked and listened and waiters stood there with their trays and it was a tableau.

Fred Zinnemann23:26

And finally Brando couldn't stand it, and

Fred Zinnemann23:29

So he s with a gigantic effort he stood up.

Fred Zinnemann23:32

And there was a hush in the place because people thought it was a miracle.

Fred Zinnemann23:38

So at this point I went the moment sobered up.

Fred Zinnemann23:42

And at this point Brando couldn't stand and start to laugh, he danced a jig and walked out.

Fred Zinnemann23:49

then came back with a lot of newspapers and said, Hooray, now I can make a living

Presenter23:56

Shall we have your next record?

Fred Zinnemann23:58

Well

Fred Zinnemann23:59

Leaving Europe and coming to America was an enormous jump in many ways, especially when it came to music.

Fred Zinnemann24:07

I was terribly excited.

Fred Zinnemann24:09

not to hear the same old polite classical music, but to find a

Fred Zinnemann24:15

Exciting, vibrant.

Fred Zinnemann24:17

Wonderful type of music.

Fred Zinnemann24:20

As an example

Fred Zinnemann24:21

I I'd like you to hear Cab Calloway sing a menu remote to explain what I'm talking about.

Speaker 224:36

Folks, now here's a story about mini the motor.

Speaker 224:41

She was a red-hot hoochy coacher She was the roughest, toughest rail But Minnie had a heart as big as a hay whale

Speaker 224:55

Holy, holy holy

Fred Zinnemann24:56

Yeah.

Speaker 225:00

Hi Hi Hari Ha! Wee-hee wee-hee.

Speaker 225:04

Hey hey it dee howdy how

Speaker 225:08

How do you know?

Speaker 225:10

Now she messed around with a bloke named Smokey She loved him though he was cokey.

Speaker 225:19

He took her down to Chinatown, He showed her how to kick the gong.

Presenter25:23

He showed her how to keep the gun

Presenter25:27

Cab Calloway and Minnie the Moocha.

Presenter25:31

It's good fun.

Presenter25:34

Nineteen fifty three, From Here to Eternity. Well, now there's a film that's remembered for so many reasons, but not least because, of course, it launched Frank Sinatra on his acting career, didn't it? Where did you find him?

Fred Zinnemann25:45

Frank Schnotta had already been a star for a long time, musically speaking. He had made two or three films which were not

Fred Zinnemann25:53

Good.

Fred Zinnemann25:54

And he also had family trouble, and he was very, very down.

Fred Zinnemann26:00

Anyhow, there was Sinatra.

Fred Zinnemann26:03

who was at that point

Fred Zinnemann26:05

In Africa, with Aba Gardner who was making a movie with John Ford, Moogambo.

Fred Zinnemann26:11

and Harry Corn, who was a very, very careful man with the buck, let

Fred Zinnemann26:16

It's an hard run that

Fred Zinnemann26:18

If he came back at his own expense and make a test that perhaps he could have the job.

Fred Zinnemann26:24

So we made a test and Frank was very good. He was Sinatra in uniform and was himself.

Fred Zinnemann26:30

And I was very happy to have him because he was very entertaining and charming and

Fred Zinnemann26:35

Not easy, but fun.

Presenter26:37

Of course the other one of the other things that the film is remembered for is that marvellous scene in the surf between Deborah Carr and Burt Lancaster rolling passionately on the edge of the sea. That was quite avant garde, really, for nineteen fifty three.

Fred Zinnemann26:44

Yeah.

Fred Zinnemann26:51

Well, uh apparently this was really the reason why everybody thought that this would be a successful movie. You know, I I thought it was fine, it was all right. It was perfectly simple scene to shoot.

Speaker 227:05

Was it?

Presenter27:06

No nothing.

Fred Zinnemann27:09

And you just waited for the right wave to come in and when the wave started coming you turned over the camera.

Presenter27:15

Yes, but the the right wave mightn't come until the sixth or eighth wave, by which time they were kind of bedraggled and looking very

Fred Zinnemann27:19

Translate.

Fred Zinnemann27:21

Well, you you sort of watched it, you know, and that's the easiest part of it. And the actors seemed to do what came naturally and there was no problem at all. Nothing. We shot in in no time.

Presenter27:31

But it does strike me that there are times when it's quite fun to be a film director, yes.

Fred Zinnemann27:36

I think it's mostly fun. It's mostly fun, or it's so tragic that it becomes surrealist and but you could still have to laugh at it, you know. And you know the old saying about the difference between Germans and Austrians, you know.

Fred Zinnemann27:49

The Germans say the situation is uh serious but not hopeless. And the Austrians say the situation is hopeless but not serious.

Presenter28:00

Which makes you ever an optimist in these situations?

Fred Zinnemann28:03

It does. You have to be an optimist. Or it helps to be an optimist. It does.

Presenter28:09

Another record.

Fred Zinnemann28:11

Oh, more American music.

Fred Zinnemann28:14

One of the things that struck me very strongly very early on was Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue.

Fred Zinnemann28:21

which somehow has the whole spirit of New York as it was then.

Speaker 228:31

Ah

Presenter29:18

George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, played by the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Leonard Bernstein.

Presenter29:25

You said earlier, Fred Zinnemann, that you've always naturally been attracted by stories about the outsider, the lone voice against the masses, and that, of course, is certainly true of the films we've been talking about, High Noon, From Here to Eternity. But where does one of your other great films, Oklahoma, fit into all of that?

Fred Zinnemann29:44

Well, that is probably has to do with the fact that w when you are

Fred Zinnemann29:50

in a very temporary situation of being what is called a hot director.

Fred Zinnemann29:57

Every everybody wants to.

Fred Zinnemann29:59

that they want you no matter what it is, they want you for, whether it's a comedy, if you've never done a comedy or whatever. And by some gigantic miscalculation, I was offered Oklahoma after from here to eternity.

Fred Zinnemann30:13

Which pleased me no end, first of all, because I was very interested.

Fred Zinnemann30:18

I love the music, uh it was lovely. And and uh also

Fred Zinnemann30:23

Uh like

Fred Zinnemann30:24

The enormous optimism.

Fred Zinnemann30:27

that the peace represented in the early days of the war when everything was very sad.

Fred Zinnemann30:34

Suddenly, like a beam of sunlight, that musical came on with all its optimism and all the faith in America and all that.

Fred Zinnemann30:43

And so anyway, emotionally I was all for it and I thought I was I could

Fred Zinnemann30:49

Take a chance and experiment.

Presenter30:52

So why do you call it a gigantic miscalculation?

Fred Zinnemann30:55

Well, I was just being vocitious, actually.

Presenter30:58

Well, i indeed the film got an Oscar nomination, I think, didn't it?

Fred Zinnemann31:00

Yeah.

Presenter31:00

Yeah.

Fred Zinnemann31:00

Yes, yeah.

Presenter31:02

A lot of um the old black and white grates these days are are subjected to a process called colourizing on the and indeed they're often re-edited, I think, to make them shorter.

Fred Zinnemann31:13

Oh, yes, yes.

Presenter31:14

Do you approve of all of that, or do you rather resent your work being fiddled about with?

Fred Zinnemann31:19

Yeah, I think it's a sign of the times. I think it it has to do with the fact that everybody seems to try to squeeze squeeze the last penny.

Fred Zinnemann31:29

out of anything, no matter what the consequences.

Presenter31:34

Do I also um infer from everything that you you said that you were never really in films, in the cinema, for the money?

Presenter31:42

That wasn't really your motivation, or indeed one of them.

Fred Zinnemann31:45

Well, uh don't misunderstand. It isn't that I don't like money, obvious obviously it does, but it's not the end all. It's not we are not here just to make money or sell each other things we don't need.

Fred Zinnemann31:57

I think there must be another reason why we are here, and I don't think it's an accident.

Fred Zinnemann32:02

You you wouldn't have things like the Ninth Symphony or the Pyramids or the Acropolis.

Fred Zinnemann32:07

If it were an accident.

Fred Zinnemann32:11

And this whole idea of money becoming a religion

Fred Zinnemann32:14

It's something that we are going to have to pay for very dearly at some point, I'm afraid, even though I'm an optimist.

Presenter32:21

Record number seven.

Fred Zinnemann32:23

Oh, Libby

Fred Zinnemann32:25

A light belly was one of the first

Fred Zinnemann32:28

musical experiences in America. Uh Ledbelli himself, as you probably know, was a convict.

Fred Zinnemann32:34

and had worked in a chain gang because he had killed somebody.

Fred Zinnemann32:38

as a great musician and a force of nature.

Fred Zinnemann32:42

He has an enor enormous exuberance, enormous joy of life, enormous vitality.

Fred Zinnemann32:49

And his humour, you can hear it when you hear the song Green Corn.

Speaker 232:56

Recall, recall.

Speaker 233:00

Recon, I'm no chale. Recon concha pale. Recon, free con

Speaker 233:07

All our boys, this creation, little bit of wife, big silent, two little boys call me pop'em, and some no one named Gravy, Breed Corn. Freed cone, come along, Charlie, Breed Corn, don't kill Polly, Breed Corn, come along, Charlie, Breed Corn.

Speaker 233:27

Boy, call me, Baba. One name Samoa one name David. One name Samoa one name Baby. One goin' put him, the other gone to save it. Greed called me.

Speaker 233:36

Rainco

Speaker 233:37

Read, go on, come on, Charlie, read gone, don't tell Polly, read gone.

Presenter33:44

Lead Belly and Green Corn. You made your last feature film eight years ago now? Yes. Five Days One Summer.

Fred Zinnemann33:51

That's right.

Presenter33:52

Up in the mountains with Sean Connery.

Fred Zinnemann33:53

Sean Connery.

Presenter33:54

You haven't made a film since then?

Fred Zinnemann33:55

No.

Presenter33:56

Do you miss it?

Fred Zinnemann33:57

Yes.

Presenter33:59

Could you, would you, make another one?

Fred Zinnemann34:01

Yes.

Fred Zinnemann34:02

Of course I'm eighty.

Fred Zinnemann34:04

going on eighty four and so perhaps I won't have the time to do another one.

Presenter34:08

What sort of film would you like it to be?

Fred Zinnemann34:11

There's some tech of short stories that are wonderful.

Fred Zinnemann34:14

And uh

Fred Zinnemann34:16

It's too long to tell you about it, but but uh I think there's something wonderful in that and you could get a very good movie out of it.

Presenter34:23

Well now in the meantime we ship you away to your desert island. Are you going to sit there happily on the island, or is escape high on the agenda, if only to make another film?

Fred Zinnemann34:33

I could swim for it.

Fred Zinnemann34:35

I can't swim very well, but I could try.

Presenter34:37

And you're an optimist, I think.

Fred Zinnemann34:39

It's exactly what

Presenter34:40

And why would you want to escape? I mean, what what is it that you would want to return to? Who or what is it that you need in a good world?

Fred Zinnemann34:46

Well it it's

Fred Zinnemann34:48

I just don't like to be vegetable and just sit there. It's it's no way to live.

Fred Zinnemann34:53

You know, it can just take so much sunshine it.

Fred Zinnemann34:56

So I I think after week I would have had it.

Presenter34:59

So you'd swim for it.

Presenter35:02

Shall we have the last record?

Fred Zinnemann35:04

This record is something that I've known for a very long time and I never get tired of it, ever. I could play it any hour of day or night and be thrilled by it. And as of all the records I think it's the one I would like to hear most often.

Presenter36:22

Bach's Magnificat with the Munich Bach Orchestra and Chorus conducted by Karl Richter.

Presenter36:27

So your book you've got the complete works of Shakespeare, and you've got the Bible on the island. What other book would you like?

Fred Zinnemann36:34

won't piece, which is a great

Fred Zinnemann36:36

Great book. Buddy Allen said that he had taken a speed reading course and that.

Fred Zinnemann36:45

He found that he could read one piece in fifteen minutes.

Fred Zinnemann36:49

And he said it's about Russia.

Presenter36:52

Well, you've got a whole week to read it by by by your own judgment.

Fred Zinnemann36:54

Five five

Fred Zinnemann36:56

Hmm.

Presenter36:56

What about a luxury?

Fred Zinnemann36:58

A very large self-renewing bottle of scotch.

Presenter37:04

Everlasting.

Presenter37:05

Fred Zinneman, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island Disc.

Fred Zinnemann37:09

It will be great pleasure, great pleasure.

Speaker 337:18

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co. uk slash radio four.