Lord Goodman

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 30:12

And the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is a lawyer. Generous with his advice, influential in his contacts, and skilful in negotiation, he became the Mr Fixit of British public life. He served on bodies as diverse as the Arts Council and the Housing Corporation. He's been ennobled by a Labour Government and honoured further by its Conservative successor. He's been called upon to help solve international disputes such as the Rhodesian Crisis and more mundane domestic arguments such as the pay of television technicians. Rich but modest and always nothing but discreet, he is a man who has enjoyed making himself available for others to use. He's been rewarded by an influence that few would have prophesied for the man who started his professional life as a bright young solicitor from North London. He is Lord Goodman.

Presenter1:19

Lord Goodman, you've spent your professional life really rubbing shoulders with the powerful and the wealthy and the influential. Is it a world that naturally attracted you?

Lord Goodman1:29

It's a world that I found interesting when I first came into it.

Lord Goodman1:34

But by now I'm afraid I'm a little blousy. But did you seek it? Is that what you wanted? No, I never sought it. I've never sought anything. Things have just come some agreeable, some less agreeable, but few disagreeable.

Presenter1:46

But I suppose the problems of of the rich and the famous and the wealthy and the powerful are rather more interesting than those of mere ordinary mortals, aren't they?

Lord Goodman1:54

I don't think one can uh

Lord Goodman1:57

Identify interesting people by the size of their bank balances.

Presenter2:01

What about by um the amount of power they wield?

Lord Goodman2:05

Well, power, I think, is a rather artificial conception. I've been told at times that I exercise power if I do it's unconsciously. And uh

Lord Goodman2:16

I d it's not a qualification that I'd be very proud of.

Presenter2:20

But you're surely not denying that the sort of practice you have had uh has been rather more interesting than that of the average solicitation.

Lord Goodman2:27

It's been a very interesting practice, largely because we have a great deal to do with the arts and.

Lord Goodman2:34

Alongside of that, of course, we do a certain amount of libel, which is falling into disrepute. And uh everything else that I do is on the whole to me rather more interesting than conveying a building.

Presenter2:48

People have called you a fixer in your time. Do you think that's always a compliment?

Lord Goodman2:52

No, I don't think it is. It suggests that one it's a man who goes about with five pound notes in his hand, handing them to people to just do things his way. No, I don't think it's a compliment.

Presenter3:01

Well, I don't know about that, but it it suggests a degree of of cunning, of calculation, doesn't it?

Lord Goodman3:05

Yes, Matt.

Lord Goodman3:07

I don't well, I don't think people who know me would regard me as cunning. I I I can't be sure I'd have to call for evidence.

Presenter3:15

Well now, you said just now that you've been very much involved in the arts in your lifetime, and indeed you have. You've been on the board of the Royal Opera House, and you've been both President and Chairman of the English National Opera. So I take it that opera will help preserve your sanity on the desert island, will it?

Lord Goodman3:26

National of

Lord Goodman3:32

Opera would certainly help preserve my sanity. My music is nearly all operatic for a reason that you've mentioned in the last few years. I've had very little time to go to anything except operas, and I'm very fond of them, so I don't regard that as a grievance.

Presenter3:48

Shall we hear what the first record is you'd like to take?

Lord Goodman3:49

React.

Lord Goodman3:51

The first record is a duet from the third act Laboem by Puccini.

Lord Goodman3:57

La Boheme, I think, is an immensely happy opera. Not that it ends in tragedy, but the fact remains that it grips you from the very beginning.

Lord Goodman4:07

And also it's it's rather more sensible it has a rather more sensible story than many other operas. I mean, although the poor Mimi dies, uh the fact remains that it's a possible story.

Lord Goodman4:20

And uh the tragedy was inevitable almost from the moment the curtain goes up, or certainly from the moment Mimi appears.

Speaker 44:33

Oh, tea.

Speaker 44:35

Send you for it.

Speaker 44:45

Ah

Speaker 44:46

We won't go.

Presenter5:25

Placido Domingo and Montserrat Cabale singing the duet from the end of the third act of Puccini's Laboem, with the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Presenter5:35

They say of you, too, Lord Goodman, that you know more secrets about well-known people than anyone else alive to-day. Um I wouldn't

Lord Goodman5:42

That's uh an illusion I like to maintain. If you would put me on the rack, I don't think I could tell you a secret if I wanted to.

Presenter5:50

Well, it's possibly true. Maybe you just take them for granted.

Lord Goodman5:52

Maybe, maybe, but I I'm not a repository of a great number of secrets.

Presenter5:58

That that of course is the other thing that you're you're noted for your integrity, your propriety really. Is that something that's always been in your nature where you brought it?

Lord Goodman6:07

Well he sounds a bit pompous. I'm not sure quite sure what he means. And I don't drink.

Presenter6:13

Well, I suppose it it you do have what one might describe as quite a Victorian image, really, would you agree?

Lord Goodman6:18

Yes, I don't mind that in the least.

Presenter6:20

What do you think is true?

Lord Goodman6:23

I think I've got a Victorian image in the sense that uh

Lord Goodman6:27

I don't

Lord Goodman6:29

I'm not very keen on

Lord Goodman6:32

Modern morality.

Lord Goodman6:34

That I find

Lord Goodman6:36

Very tiresome.

Presenter6:37

Tell me, though, about your background. W were you it was it a very Victorian upbringing that you had?

Lord Goodman6:42

It was a strange well, it was a strange afternoon. My father and mother were.

Lord Goodman6:48

although they had resented the word were exceptionally prudish.

Lord Goodman6:52

I doubt very much if I I certainly never heard any sex talked about round the family table. In fact, it's a mystery to me how I ever got conceived, because uh they uh

Lord Goodman7:04

They were terribly prim. They were both delightful people.

Lord Goodman7:07

I'm both immensely fond and

Lord Goodman7:10

generous and kind?

Presenter7:12

Where did they come from, your family? What w what was the background of your mother and father?

Lord Goodman7:14

My grandparents both came from Lithuania about a hundred years ago.

Lord Goodman7:20

And uh

Lord Goodman7:21

My father was a scholarly person. He I I think in all the years that I was at home I cannot ever remember that we went to a restaurant.

Lord Goodman7:31

We all were set at home.

Lord Goodman7:33

And my mother was a a most miraculous housekeeper.

Lord Goodman7:38

I mean, she she she always had some money, however hard up we may have been, and she always h wanted to do or told us how we could do the thing we wanted to do.

Presenter7:47

Was there always a feeling in the house that that young Arnold would do something with his life?

Lord Goodman7:53

No, I don't think there was such a feeling.

Lord Goodman7:56

There was certainly a feeling that I was a moor.

Lord Goodman7:59

Practical seldom my brother.

Lord Goodman8:02

that I was more likely to earn a living than he would.

Lord Goodman8:05

But uh

Presenter8:06

But no one was sure how.

Lord Goodman8:08

I don't think they ever thought that I would grow into the juniors I am.

Lord Goodman8:12

Uh

Lord Goodman8:13

I think also my father was prouder of me than my mother.

Lord Goodman8:20

I remember he he was almost in tears when the results of the solicitors final came out and I got a first class.

Lord Goodman8:26

And uh I I've known never known it so moved.

Presenter8:30

But you were quite a shy child, weren't you?

Lord Goodman8:32

Yes, I'm still shy. I'm shy.

Lord Goodman8:35

meeting people for the first time.

Lord Goodman8:38

I think it's faded now. I mean, I don't think it doesn't cause me any distress, but it used to.

Presenter8:44

Even when they put your favorite chocolate gingers on the table in front of you.

Lord Goodman8:47

Mulvenacco things are different.

Presenter8:49

Go for it.

Lord Goodman8:49

Yes, I'm friendly from that moment onwards.

Presenter8:52

Shall we have your second record?

Lord Goodman8:55

I'd like to.

Lord Goodman8:57

Have a Peace by Yanacek from Katya Kabanova.

Lord Goodman9:01

which is, as most of his operas are, a complete tragedy.

Lord Goodman9:06

It's a remarkable warning against marriage because

Lord Goodman9:10

The mother in law is the cause of all the trouble, and when the poor daughter has drowned herself, she refuses even then to make any sympathetic noises.

Presenter9:20

This is a very irreverent guide to opera that you're giving us here today, I think.

Lord Goodman9:23

Uh I don't think so. I think it's a highly accurate guide. Well, you see, you must remember that I

Lord Goodman9:30

You have seen an enormous number of operas. I should think that I hear Bohem, for instance.

Lord Goodman9:36

At least five times a year. And as I've been around doing this thing for fifty years, you can work out how often I've heard Bohem.

Lord Goodman9:44

and the same applies to several other operas.

Speaker 49:48

It's very hard, Yashna Silis, the work of gifted, raised me.

Lord Goodman10:04

Was she eyes and wonderful?

Presenter10:08

Yeah, that's what we have.

Speaker 410:16

Washington deserves more.

Lord Goodman10:16

It's all in heart.

Speaker 410:19

The chief is a demonic door, she semi smith.

Lord Goodman10:26

Yeah.

Speaker 410:29

That's what we want.

Speaker 410:31

The Jerry Laska ends usually.

Presenter10:45

Elizabeth Serderstrom and Peter Dvorsky singing part of the final act of Janicek's Katja Kabanova, with the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Sir Charles McKerris.

Presenter10:55

Um you went, um Lord Goodman, to both University College London and then to Downing College, Cambridge.

Lord Goodman11:01

Right?

Presenter11:01

Did you enjoy your university life?

Lord Goodman11:04

I enjoyed my university life in London.

Lord Goodman11:08

I didn't terribly enjoy it at Cambridge because I came up

Lord Goodman11:12

Having already taken the degree

Lord Goodman11:14

And in consequence, I didn't uh I I didn't rub shoulders with the

Lord Goodman11:19

with any freshman in the ordinary way. And also

Lord Goodman11:25

It was slightly arrived in emotional terms.

Lord Goodman11:28

I spent a great many evenings alone reading books.

Presenter11:33

Are you saying you actively didn't like the other students, or they were just not? No, I just didn't.

Lord Goodman11:36

No, I I just didn't come across them. I mean, I don't fall in love with friends very rapidly and uh I didn't come across many of them.

Presenter11:44

Was it part of this ongoing shyness you were talking?

Lord Goodman11:47

I don't think it was well. I think the shyness may have something to do with it, because I didn't uh exert myself very much to meet people.

Presenter11:53

Let's go back then to you in the thirties. You joined up, didn't you? You you joined the TA?

Lord Goodman11:58

I joined the territorials just about three months before the war broke out.

Presenter12:03

But you'd already started working, hadn't you?

Lord Goodman12:05

I'd already started work, yes, I was an admitted solicitor, and at that stage I'd I was a junior partner in a small firm.

Presenter12:12

Which firm was that?

Lord Goodman12:13

It's no longer there. There's a man called Rajman Kiss.

Lord Goodman12:17

And he he was an exceptionally nice man and very helpful.

Lord Goodman12:22

and it was there that I made a number of useful connections and friends.

Presenter12:25

which you were to take up later. W is it possible to say what was the most important lesson mister Kish ever taught you?

Lord Goodman12:33

I think the most important lesson mister Kish taught me was that you shouldn't be so thrifty as people notice it.

Presenter12:42

Right, record number three.

Lord Goodman12:44

Record number three.

Lord Goodman12:47

Is uh

Lord Goodman12:48

A duet from the final scene of Baddi's Ultradore.

Lord Goodman12:52

It's an interesting opera opera. It's got a story of almost incredible idiocy.

Lord Goodman12:57

And uh

Lord Goodman12:59

But on the other hand, it's got some wonderful resounding music. That's why I like it.

Speaker 413:08

Oh yeah.

Speaker 413:10

Oh, Lord, in turn, oh, Lord.

Speaker 413:33

Oh no.

Presenter14:06

Jelena Obrastsova and Franco Bonisoli singing the duet from the final scene of Verdi's Il Trovatore, with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Carrion.

Presenter14:17

Am I right in thinking, Lord Goodman, that that you enjoyed your life in the army rather more than you'd relished life at university?

Lord Goodman14:25

I certainly enjoyed my life in the army because I discovered the human race, and in particular I discovered the English people, and what exceptionally nice people they were. What did you do in the army? I enlisted as a gunner, and I ended up for some while as the battery quartermaster sergeant.

Lord Goodman14:41

With my friend Professor Gower, who joined the army at the same time, I think we had almost absolute power. It's the only time in my life when I felt that I had the power to do whatever I liked. What kind of power? Well, I mean, well, in this sense, that as the quartermaster everybody wanted something. Also, as we were both lawyers, we were consulted at every stage by every officer about what ought to happen. And your CO was Mortimer Wheeler. He was the commanding officer, yes.

Presenter15:10

Who pronounced you the greatest quartermaster sergeant in the history of the army?

Lord Goodman15:14

I think he was a little given to extravagance.

Lord Goodman15:17

I don't think there was much competition here.

Presenter15:19

But but we're back to that element of cunning, aren't we? If you could manage to have your your your battery lavishly supplied while others were starved of equipment.

Lord Goodman15:29

And you didn't do it by cunning. You first of all you had to know where the equipment was, and then you had to persuade someone to let you have it, which was much easier than I thought it ought to be.

Lord Goodman15:38

In the early days of the war,

Lord Goodman15:41

The army was as much concerned with cooking equipment as with artillery in fact rather more concerned. I remember when we got a fully automatic bacon slicer that must have cost the earth that arrived, a potato peeler, a whole a whole collection of interesting kitchen equipment.

Presenter15:58

But this this occupied you fully, Peyton. Your eyes light up still when now when you talk about it.

Lord Goodman16:03

That may be. It's a happy memory.

Lord Goodman16:07

I'm trying to write some memoirs. Now I titled the chapter about my army career as War Without Violence.

Presenter16:14

You never left this country, in fact, did you?

Lord Goodman16:15

Not really. I had one or two adventures in a boat, but I never left the country, largely because uh no one would allow me to.

Lord Goodman16:24

It was a great sadness because the battery I joined

Lord Goodman16:28

The commanding officer was really nice and a man called Steele, who was a publisher.

Lord Goodman16:33

Sent for me and said, Q, we're going abroad. Do you want to come with us? And I, of course, said, of course, I wanted to be with them. I'd be with them a long time. So he said, well, there's one thing you must do. You must get yourself recoded medically, raised because you are at the moment a category C, and you have to be a category A. So what you'd better do is find a doctor and get him to push you up to A. Well, it so happened that at that time that we had no RAMC doctor, and we were using a civilian doctor in Manchester. And I went to see him and told him of my requirements. He examined me. Then he nodded his head rather sadly and said, No, I can't grade you up. I said, Why? He said, Well, because you've got asthma. That's one thing I've never had, but

Lord Goodman17:16

This man obviously was determined that I had asthma. He also said, since he had remarkable powers of observation, he said, you're very fat. And I didn't resent it in the least, but he drew a conclusion. He said, you know, if your battery was in retreat, you'd get in the way. And I assured him that if the battery was in retreat, I'd be in the very forefront of the retreat. But he wasn't having any. And he saved my life, because the battery was shipped off. I saw them off at Manchester Central Tation on a very sad note. We didn't know where they were going. They thought they were going to a frozen area. In fact, they went to Jaba. And every one of them was

Lord Goodman17:56

was in was in the hands of the Japanese within a few days.

Presenter18:00

How many men was there?

Lord Goodman18:01

That was must be about three hundred and fifty, of which sixty came back.

Lord Goodman18:07

Let's have some more music.

Lord Goodman18:10

to be possessed of the

Lord Goodman18:13

An area from a Nagin.

Lord Goodman18:15

which is a a splendid opera and uh has a great advantage of being an entertaining opera.

Speaker 418:24

Stoden briados filmie ga to

Lord Goodman18:28

Ah

Speaker 418:31

Yerome Moisoire.

Lord Goodman18:31

Yeah

Speaker 418:46

Brussels

Speaker 418:49

Is a crowd.

Speaker 418:54

Odi Austria Francio.

Presenter18:54

Ah god

Presenter19:01

Part of the dual scene of Tchaikovsky's Eugene Onigin, sung by Neil Schikoff with the Dresden Staatscapella, conducted by James Levine.

Presenter19:10

Were you ever, Lord Goodman, genuinely a struggling solicitor, or did money shower upon you from the very beginning?

Lord Goodman19:16

I don't think money is ever showered upon me. Uh I I can't see myself as a struggling solicitor. It seemed to me that somewhere I would get employment, and clients proceeded to rally. I had a substantial number of clients, rather too many.

Presenter19:31

But who or what was your entree to this influential market we keep referring to?

Lord Goodman19:37

I think it must have been report and rumour. I think people had heard that there was a plump young solicitor round the corner who was not too expensive and quite succ quite efficient.

Presenter19:48

We're still

Lord Goodman19:49

Plump was.

Presenter19:50

But eventually um people like Dick Crossman and Anaya and Bevan and Jenny Lee and Hugh Gateskill came to your room. So

Lord Goodman19:59

Yeah.

Presenter19:59

What sort of problem?

Lord Goodman20:00

problems did they bring? Well, they had usually the problems were things that had been said about them that they didn't like. I spent half my life discouraging people from bringing libel actions, because I think a libel action is a great folly.

Presenter20:14

In the main, you wouldn't encourage people to um take a libel action.

Lord Goodman20:18

It depends on the circumstances. I wouldn't encourage people to take a libel action unless something is said.

Presenter20:18

It sends a

Lord Goodman20:24

that is especially wounding, or is likely to be remembered in relation to their reputation. Otherwise I think uh libel actions are a folly.

Lord Goodman20:34

You issue a writ?

Lord Goodman20:37

On one day

Lord Goodman20:38

And then the case gets set down about a year later.

Lord Goodman20:42

and is heard about another year later, and by the time it comes for trial and has been settled, you have completely forgotten what the insult was, and your resentment has died down.

Presenter20:52

Or indeed in taking that action you remind people of what was said about you.

Lord Goodman20:56

I quite agree. Yes, also a party.

Presenter20:59

On the other hand, if a complete untruth is written about you,

Lord Goodman21:03

If a complete untruth is written about you, you start from the position that those people who know you won't believe it. And if you've got that happy position to start from, you don't need to pursue the villain who told the untruth.

Presenter21:15

But it might be professionally damaging.

Lord Goodman21:17

But it's very difficult to believe that a libel action would correct it.

Lord Goodman21:22

I mean, at the end of the day.

Lord Goodman21:25

People will say, There's no smoke without fire.

Lord Goodman21:29

And uh

Lord Goodman21:30

I there are certain situations where li libel action is indispensable.

Lord Goodman21:35

That's what if you're accused of dishonesty.

Lord Goodman21:38

But uh on the whole I've discouraged many people from bringing libel actions.

Lord Goodman21:44

Many more actions than I brought.

Lord Goodman21:47

Some more music.

Lord Goodman21:49

I'd like a piece from Pongy and Bess.

Lord Goodman21:53

A famous piece, it ain't necessarily so.

Lord Goodman21:57

It's an extraordinary opera and a magnificent magnificent one. I mean, it's very moving.

Lord Goodman22:02

And uh

Lord Goodman22:04

Needless to say, it's an entirely black opera.

Lord Goodman22:08

But it doesn't it shows the blacks in the most dignified fashion and it gives you a a r a better understanding of the problems of being black than almost anything else.

Speaker 422:18

It ain't necessarily so serious. The things that you liable to read in the Bible, it ain't necessarily so. Little David was small, but oh my god.

Presenter22:42

Damon Evans and the Glinebourne Chorus singing It Ain't Necessarily So from Gershwin's Porgy and Bess with the London Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle.

Presenter22:51

Tell me about your relationship with Harold Wilson, Lord Goodman. You often used to meet him, didn't you?

Lord Goodman22:57

And he was Prime Minister.

Presenter22:57

Yeah, yeah.

Lord Goodman22:58

We had a very close relationship for a while, but not a political relationship.

Presenter23:03

But you met very regularly. Oh, we met very regularly. I mean, you were constantly in and out of Downing Street when he was primarily.

Lord Goodman23:04

Yeah, we met very regularly I see

Lord Goodman23:08

In his day, yes, that's true. He he got all sorts of problems. You see, he presented any sort of problem to me.

Lord Goodman23:15

I mean, if if they wanted to know how to cook a cake, I would have been consulted. If they wanted to know how to get to Spain the quickest way, I mean, th th I was a a fountain of general information. Most of it wrong, but uh

Presenter23:26

Vegetable

Presenter23:28

You were a sort of reassuring presence, were you?

Lord Goodman23:30

It certainly is true.

Presenter23:31

He needed you.

Lord Goodman23:33

I would say he did need me, yes.

Presenter23:36

How did he use you? Did he sort of say, Right, sit down there, Arnold. Now I'm going to tell you about something and I want you to react or perhaps.

Lord Goodman23:42

Well, you ask me I went into Downing Street usually once a week.

Lord Goodman23:46

And uh I started g he asked me to come in at eight o'clock.

Lord Goodman23:51

At night. At night, yes. And after I'd been going for some mile, I said, Hey, would you mind if I came at nine o'clock?

Lord Goodman23:58

I said, Why? I said, Because I like to dine and that no food, s as far as I can remember, was served in Downing Street. I don't know when he ate. But we we moved it to nine o'clock, and often I was there till past midnight.

Lord Goodman24:11

on some problem or another. And uh So were you bored sometimes and?

Lord Goodman24:17

I said it's true to say I was a bit I'm not normally bored, I was a bit bored.

Lord Goodman24:22

Yeah.

Presenter24:22

What what sort of things used to bore you?

Lord Goodman24:25

Well, I mean, what what bored me more than anything

Lord Goodman24:29

was an obsession with any particular problem that I would have regarded as trivial and which should have been dismissed from anyone's mind.

Lord Goodman24:37

I won't say that was particularly the case of Harold Wilson, but he certainly needed

Lord Goodman24:41

people to reassure him and to advise him, and uh I was one of the people he he used.

Lord Goodman24:48

Uh

Presenter24:48

Did you lie?

Lord Goodman24:49

Chim

Presenter24:49

Uh

Lord Goodman24:51

Obviously I was flattered by the fact that the Prime Minister was bestowing such attention on me.

Lord Goodman24:57

I doubt if he would have become a close friend in other circumstances.

Lord Goodman25:01

I mean, he was obsessed with uh

Lord Goodman25:04

with his own position and uh

Lord Goodman25:07

I mean he was he was quite a nice man he was a considerate man.

Lord Goodman25:12

and uh an interesting man when he wasn't

Lord Goodman25:15

reading the newspapers and seeing what insults had been levelled at him.

Presenter25:19

And then after um Harold Wilson came Edward Heath, and again you were a confidant, weren't you?

Lord Goodman25:24

Yes, in a smaller way.

Presenter25:26

But how did your relationship with him differ from your relationship with Harold Wilson?

Lord Goodman25:31

Well, it's a different sort of human being.

Lord Goodman25:34

I mean, one didn't have the same protective instinct in relation to him that one had to Harold Wilson. You had a sort of feeling you had to look after this man or to go over the cliff.

Lord Goodman25:43

And uh

Lord Goodman25:45

I never had that feeling with Heath, who was a totally self confident man.

Presenter25:50

Did you like him?

Lord Goodman25:52

Yes, I did. I've liked him ever since.

Lord Goodman25:54

I think it was a tragedy that he became so estranged from government.

Presenter25:59

And

Presenter26:00

You continue to in insist that although you were so close to the centre of power on all of these occasions, you never once felt, my goodness, I could do that.

Lord Goodman26:10

Well, I never felt I couldn't do it.

Lord Goodman26:13

I mean, I was there listening. Most of the time most of my time with Harry Wilson, and indeed with other politicians when they came to advice, was listening.

Presenter26:22

So you felt useful, you felt sought out and useful.

Lord Goodman26:26

I felt important.

Lord Goodman26:28

If I may say so. I mean, marching into Downing Street is a rather specialized activity.

Presenter26:35

I think we should have some more music. What's the next record?

Lord Goodman26:36

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter26:37

Uh

Lord Goodman26:38

Yeah.

Presenter26:38

Yeah.

Lord Goodman26:38

Yeah.

Lord Goodman26:38

I'd like the duet from Fidelia because I think it it is a very great opera.

Lord Goodman26:44

It's very it's not frequently played. I believe I'm right in saying it was Beethoven's only opera.

Lord Goodman26:50

And it's got some wonderful music in it.

Lord Goodman26:53

particularly the scene in the cell when uh Leodora

Lord Goodman26:57

uh saves her husband, who she's been sea asserting, from being killed by the villainous

Lord Goodman27:04

whatever his name was who uh

Lord Goodman27:08

was intent on shooting him.

Lord Goodman27:10

And then Leonora appears from nowhere with a pistol, which she happily equipped herself with, and saves her dear husband from murder.

Speaker 427:26

Oh.

Speaker 427:50

Oh yeah, oh, sorry, I'm a little bit more.

Speaker 428:01

Feel the moon in my mother.

Presenter28:18

Hildegard Behrens and Peter Hoffman singing the duet O Naamen Laws of Freude from Beethoven's Fidelio, with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Presenter28:28

People come to you, have always come to you for personal advice as well as professional advice, haven't they? I mean, I have the impression you.

Lord Goodman28:34

Yes.

Presenter28:35

You've been a bit of an agony, aunt, in your time.

Lord Goodman28:39

I've certainly had people weeping on my shoulder.

Lord Goodman28:42

I'm used to that. I mean, I found a pad to put on my shoulder and that's that. But uh it's surprising how many people do need.

Lord Goodman28:50

Some personal advice from someone they can trust.

Presenter28:54

I I read that as as Master of University College Oxford, which you were for for ten years, I think from seventy six to eighty six, that

Presenter29:01

The undergraduates were constantly coming to you with their personal pro I mean, girlfriend problems and

Presenter29:06

mother's rent problems or whatever.

Lord Goodman29:08

Obviously, came with the most my favourite recollection is an undergraduate who raced in to my lodgings at breakfast time and said, Master Master, please sign this. It was a form. I thought it was an application for a scholarship. It turned out to be an application for the Royal Enclosure at Escot.

Presenter29:08

Uh

Lord Goodman29:26

I signed it because I said to him, I don't know what notice they'll take of my signature, but here it is.

Presenter29:31

Well, you had a title, so it would do no damage.

Lord Goodman29:33

Yes, you might have.

Presenter29:34

What about your own personal life? How how important a part have women played in it?

Lord Goodman29:40

They have played a part.

Lord Goodman29:42

Not perhaps as lavish a part as as Casanova, but uh they have played a part, and they've certainly been an influence on me.

Presenter29:51

And and i is it the source of much regret that that you never married?

Lord Goodman29:55

It's a source of much regret that I have never had any children.

Lord Goodman29:59

I think I don't know what would have happened if I'd married. I think for one reason or another I didn't. And.

Lord Goodman30:06

There were certainly some very agreeable possibilities that I turned my back on.

Lord Goodman30:11

Some more music

Lord Goodman30:13

I would like the area from Verdis Treviata. It's an interesting story because it has provided me.

Lord Goodman30:21

with a comparison I made on several times, that if you look at Boem and if you look at Traviata, you can see the necessity for a national health service in Treviata,

Lord Goodman30:34

The lady is suffering from the same consumption, I assume, as was Mimi, but she the doctor, you never get can get him off the stage. I mean he comes and goes with great frequency. But so far as Bohem is concerned, the poor girl dies, surrounded by the Bohemian friends. Not a suggestion is ever made about calling a doctor. I mean, there's a very tragic scene when they all go out to buy medicines for her. And when they get home, they're warming the medicine on a small spirit so when she inconveniently dies. But there is no suggestion of any kind that she could have afforded or have a doctor. You make all these great tragic operas sound like comedies. Well, it's not a comedy when the poor girl dies.

Presenter31:20

But it is when you describe. I think we better have lat traviote.

Lord Goodman31:24

Yes.

Speaker 431:34

See while

Speaker 431:45

Yeah.

Speaker 431:52

Awesome!

Speaker 431:58

Oh Christiko, oh no, they call.

Speaker 432:08

Oh, they're

Presenter32:17

Yeah.

Presenter32:25

Iljana Kotrubash singing an aria from the second act of Ferdi's La Traviata with the Bayaricius Staats Orchestra conducted by Carlos Kleiber.

Presenter32:35

There's now a gallery named after you in in in Oxford. There's a street named after you in London, I think. Other things named Goodman.

Lord Goodman32:44

Yes, there are.

Presenter32:45

There are in honour of you all symbols of your achievement.

Presenter32:50

How would you sum up, can you sum up what those achievements are?

Lord Goodman32:55

I think I regard as the achievement, if there is one, is having established a reputation.

Lord Goodman33:02

But for reliability and one's success to say this, and for integrity.

Presenter33:11

I think integrity is perhaps more apt. It would be a it would be a dull epitaph, wouldn't it? He was a reliable man.

Lord Goodman33:17

It might be a dull epithet, but it'd be a very flattering one.

Lord Goodman33:21

And there weren't tr there wouldn't be a number a great number of candidates for it.

Presenter33:26

What about this one, which I I think must have come from you at some point? He was a sane man, of blameless reputation, who over the years has rendered the State no insignificant service.

Lord Goodman33:39

I don't know who wrote that.

Presenter33:41

Would you accept it?

Lord Goodman33:43

I willingly accept it, yes.

Lord Goodman33:46

In substitution for some of the things that might have been said,

Presenter33:50

In which case it's yours, and I shall ask you for your last record.

Lord Goodman33:54

Yes. My last record

Lord Goodman33:57

is Elga's Land of Hope and Glory.

Lord Goodman34:00

I I've one particular reason for that.

Lord Goodman34:03

That although I'm not a particularly

Lord Goodman34:07

demonstrative person.

Lord Goodman34:09

I have a very, very strong feeling of gratitude to this country for the way in which they admitted my grandfathers and made sure that I was there to do the work you've been talking about. And that's why I rather like to play the Also there's the added reason that I haven't had any British musician so far, and this was composed by Dudova.

Presenter35:25

The London Symphony Chorus and the Northern Symphonia conducted by Richard Hickox and Elgar's Land of Hope and Glory.

Presenter35:33

Now, which of those eight records, Lord Goodman, is your favourite?

Lord Goodman35:38

Royal

Lord Goodman35:39

If I have to make a choice, I like to have the Fidelio.

Presenter35:43

This is as you try to cope with life on the desert island. Will you be able to cope with that? Will you be any good at all at it?

Lord Goodman35:51

I'd be ingenious. By that I mean that I would swim out to another island and see if I could capture a man Friday and bring him home.

Presenter35:59

What about a book before you set off for what could be a very long swim? You've got you've got the Bible there, and you've got the complete works of Shakespeare.

Lord Goodman36:05

Yeah.

Lord Goodman36:06

Done.

Lord Goodman36:07

I think the only book that one could thumb over constantly would be Who's Who?

Presenter36:13

most of whom you might have known, anyway.

Lord Goodman36:15

Some home I should know, not most of them.

Presenter36:17

And a luxury.

Lord Goodman36:19

Luxury only one possibility an enormous box of chocolate ginger.

Presenter36:24

Lord Goodman, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Presenter36:29

Delighted.

Speaker 436:34

Uh

Speaker 336:37

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.