Barbara Windsor

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 20:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway this week is an actress. Born and bred in the East End of London, her effervescent cockney humour delighted audiences first in musicals like Things Ain't What They Used To Be, and then, of course, most famously in the Carry On films.

Presenter0:43

The public image of a bubbly, fun loving personality is, however, in stark contrast to the problems of her private life. For more than twenty years she was married to a man who eventually stood trial for murder, and who later fled to Spain, a fugitive from the British police.

Presenter0:59

She has now written her autobiography, a rumbustious account, by a woman whose honesty, determination, and endless good humour have buoyed her up in often frightening circumstances. She is Barbara Windsor.

Presenter1:12

Barbara, the most amazing thing I've read about you is that you once wanted to be a nun. Can this be true?

Barbara Windsor1:18

Yes. My mother said that she came home one day and I was prancing around the kitchen with a tea towel over my head, practising to become a nun. What changed your mind?

Barbara Windsor1:27

I was at a convent, you see, and uh when I was uh thirteen I was appearing at the Stoke Newton Town Hall, Madam Behenna Juvenile Jollities, and uh a gentleman called Brian Mickey, who was a talent scout, came in and he said to Bada Bahenna,

Barbara Windsor1:42

That little plump girl on the end, the little blonde one, she's got something. And I didn't have the boobs in those days. And um yes, I'd like to meet her mother. But you were very bright, weren't you? I mean you were a scholarship. Yes, I'd won a scholarship when I was ten and a half.

Speaker 11:52

Yes, I

Barbara Windsor1:55

and I was the only one who'd won the scholarship in North London. And the the highest school to go to was this convent called Our Lady's Convent.

Barbara Windsor2:02

High School for Young Ladies on Stamford Hill.

Barbara Windsor2:05

But of course I wasn't a Catholic.

Barbara Windsor2:07

and I'd only gone to Sunday school and, you know, and and uh going to to church and and mass and I it was very theatrical and I quite liked it and

Barbara Windsor2:16

I thought it was very nice the way they walk around in those black black outfits and I rather wanted to be a nun and that was it. So you were a bit of a show off as well, were you? Oh, yes, yes,'cause I was an only child, so I was always kind of fantasizing and uh

Barbara Windsor2:29

I'd get on the bus and show show mummy up, like I'd pull my skirts up behind and pretend I was Betty Grable and look over my shoulder, or I'd bring my little bit of blonde

Barbara Windsor2:39

T nine hairs and a knit, as my mother always used to say about my hair,'cause I've ha I've got terrible hair, and I'd bring a little bit of hair over my eye and do a peekaboo Veronica Lake and things like that. So what

Presenter2:50

What's going to happen to all of that desire to show off, which I presume you still have, and your exuberance and your personality? What's going to happen to all of that on a desert island, all alone?

Presenter2:59

Quite like

Barbara Windsor2:59

being on my own. And in fact, my husband Steve now says to me, you know, you sometimes I think you don't need me because uh I quite like to put the key in the door, shut it, and that's it.

Presenter3:09

And then you can be quiet, you can stop being exuberant.

Barbara Windsor3:11

Yes, I don't have to be Barbara Windsor. I I still think I'm Barbara Ann Deeks at heart.

Barbara Windsor3:16

I like that, you see, and I think that's why I've survived in the business. I mean, when they say, Oh, sexy and bro I mean, I look at myself, four foot ten and a half when the hair's all screwed back and no face, I think, Oh, get out

Barbara Windsor3:28

You see, I don't believe all that rubbish and I can be me.

Presenter3:32

Let's have the first record you'll take with you.

Barbara Windsor3:35

I felt I grew up.

Barbara Windsor3:36

when I discover Sinatra.

Barbara Windsor3:39

I didn't know what life was about at all and and suddenly I remember listening to a Frankson Archer record and there was a feller

Barbara Windsor3:47

And it it just made me go all funny and I felt like a woman.

Barbara Windsor3:52

And also I I thought I combined it with Count Basie'cause I sang with the Ronnie Scott band at one point in my life and I thought so I'll I'll combine the two.

Barbara Windsor4:00

and that is the best is yet to come.

Speaker 14:04

Out of the tree of life I just picked me a plum.

Speaker 14:13

You came along and everything started into hum

Speaker 14:21

Still it's a real good bet the best is yet to come.

Presenter4:27

Frank Sinatra and the Count Bazy Band and The Best Is Yet to Come.

Presenter4:31

Tell me about your origins, Barbara. I mean, you're a real East Ender, aren't you?

Barbara Windsor4:35

Yes, I was born in Shawditch in in Angela Street, in one of those typical little East End streets where everybody sat outside in their chair shelling the peas and the key was in the door and it was over the garden wall and there was that the wonderful mansion polish red step.

Barbara Windsor4:53

And uh

Presenter4:53

The cardinal politics.

Barbara Windsor4:54

Oh yes, that's right, yes.

Presenter4:55

Oh yes.

Presenter4:56

But when the front door was closed, Barbara, family life wasn't always quite as shiny bright as the front step, was it?

Barbara Windsor4:59

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor5:03

Uh no. I mean, wi wi regarding my mum and dad, they should never have married each other, but then thank God they did,'cause I'm here. But, um, i it's just that it was like red rag to a ball. I mean, my dad was a typical East End Jack the lad, you know, lots of personality, loved the East End.

Barbara Windsor5:21

And my mummy was totally different. She was a very snobby East End. Oh, I've got to get out of Shoreditch and and she did. She got us up to Stoke Newington, which was considered big news in those days, you see. And was she glam?

Barbara Windsor5:33

Terribly glamorous. Daddy was very good looking, and I oh well, this sounds awful, but I I looked like Daddy. But mummy was very glamorous, with the red hair, dyed it with the henna, and the very high heels.

Presenter5:44

But the arguments were because he was jealous of her, he didn't like her looking nice.

Barbara Windsor5:48

Well, but m but mostly I think it's because he was quite content to live in the East End. Quite content. Everything was fine and wonderful. His family lived there. So did mummy's family, but they also moved up to Stoke Newington and she thought, Oh, that's great. What effect did all the arguing have on you?

Barbara Windsor6:04

Um, I don't think you really understood. It wasn't till I stood in the divorce court, uh, when I was fifteen did I realize that it that was it was serious. And I was I was a fif fifteen year old going on ten, which you were in those days, you know, in me socks and that, and and I just I think even then I understood that they were just two totally different people and and they weren't meant to be together.

Presenter6:27

And you gave evidence against him, didn't you?

Barbara Windsor6:29

Yes, which you don't know as a child, you know. Uh I mean, they just asked me to say had I seen him.

Barbara Windsor6:36

them argue and and and row and fight and and yes and and swearing in those days was was awful to swear and and I'd said yes, I'd heard daddy swear. And then when he came out the court I s I I remember looking at him smiling at him and he walked past me and I don't think he understood that I was a little very young girl, just

Barbara Windsor6:56

Just being told what to do. I mean, I'm sure if I'd had the choice, I'd have gone off with my father, because I loved my father.

Barbara Windsor7:02

Did he ever speak to you again after that? No, never. Never, ever. I used to to wait by the bus stop sometimes and see if I could see him, and I felt he saw me one day and

Barbara Windsor7:14

And didn't acknowledge me. And then many, many years later, this woman came up to me and said, Hello.

Barbara Windsor7:20

Your barber wins? I said, Yes, and she he said, She said, I'm married to your father and uh oh, and I said, God, how is he?

Barbara Windsor7:28

I mean, I I must have been about twenty eight then, and she said, Oh, well, he's just had a heart attack So I wrote to him and we got back together.

Barbara Windsor7:35

But um and it was lovely for just a few months, but

Barbara Windsor7:39

There was there there was all that thing about whether he could see mummy in me and then there was suddenly a row and it

Barbara Windsor7:45

I just thought this is not meant to be.

Barbara Windsor7:49

Oh, God, third lease.

Barbara Windsor7:53

Well, I just it my mother wanted me to have um

Barbara Windsor7:57

piano lessons and I never practised. I mean, that's it, you've got to practise. And I didn't practise.

Barbara Windsor8:02

And then she said, I don't know what I'm going to do with you, I really don't and I thought, I'll show her, which is typical, Miss Windsor.

Barbara Windsor8:09

And I w I had this piece of Verdelies which I was supposed to have learnt, and I learnt it within a week.

Barbara Windsor8:16

And I suddenly suddenly one day I said, Mum, I want to play you something I played for Delece. And she said, Oh.

Barbara Windsor8:22

Just like your father.

Presenter9:22

Alfred Brendel playing Beethoven's bagatelle in A minor, the Furelis. So you were fourteen, I think, Barbara, when you went off to Ada Foster's theatre school in Golders Green.

Barbara Windsor9:31

Yes. Well wha what had happened when Brian Mickey

Barbara Windsor9:34

I decided, you know, that I should go on the stage. He took me to the Wimbledon Theatre to audition for pantomime.

Barbara Windsor9:41

And I got the show and then the the convent wouldn't release me and I started playing up terribly. And the reverent mother called my mother in and said, Look, she's she's now got this bug in her. She wants to go on the stage So daddy was the bus conductor, mummy the dressmaker, so they put their pennies together and uh they said it was either Brian Mickey said either send her to Italia Conte.

Barbara Windsor10:01

or Ada Foster's.

Barbara Windsor10:03

And I went along to Ada Foster's and I arrived and I saw these pictures of Elizabeth Taylor and Jean Simmons and I said, Oh, ma'am, can I go here?

Barbara Windsor10:12

And I remember getting up and seeing Freyda and she said, She's different. She she's got sound. I don't know what it is. They always used to say that in those days. And she said, Yes, I'll take her on And they thought they ought to go I never had a Cockney accent. I mean I haven't got a Cockney accent now, it was very much a London accent, but you you still

Barbara Windsor10:28

weren't supposed to speak like that. You had to really speak, tell me like this, you know. And uh and have like a little plum in your mouth and be very pretty and and uh lots of curls and I was very short, fat and loud, totally different from the Ada Foster girls. But when I my first day they sat me next to Shirley Eaton, do you remember the Goldfinger girl who was

Barbara Windsor10:48

Devastatingly beautiful, there's a lot of money. Legs up to the armpits. Well, up to the armpits, yeah.

Presenter10:50

Eggs up to my

Barbara Windsor10:53

I had Jean Marsh in front of me. I mean, so pretty Jean was, and I felt so intimidated.

Presenter10:59

But why didn't you lose heart, Barbara Villa? I mean, if you were there, all these girls were much posher and and longer legged.

Barbara Windsor11:05

Longer legged. Well, I didn't think that they could do it as well as me at the end of the

Presenter11:09

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor11:09

Okay.

Presenter11:09

So you ended up not trying to be something that you weren't, but being you and being uh spotted and appreciated for being you.

Barbara Windsor11:15

I mean they tried to take away a bit of the London accent and the very first film job I got was in Belles of St Trinian's and I had to lean out of the window and say, Teda, mum, see you next holes and I had to be very cockney in my mum and said I can't believe it. I've sat and done all that piecework, you know, to send you to Ada Foster's to get rid of your cockney accent and that's the first line you do in a cockney accent. But no, it was meant to be when you think the very first line I did was as me.

Barbara Windsor11:43

And when I went into Love from Judy, I mean, I auditioned and they wanted um little girls who are fifteen, very loud, but very small.

Barbara Windsor11:53

And as as I could hear him all singing, I heard Robin singing, and it was getting less and less and I was getting closer to the stage, and suddenly I came on and said, Sam, grab your coat and get your hat and the guy said,

Barbara Windsor12:05

Oh, how refreshing And of course I went into love from Judy when I was I was just fifteen, and I came out two and a half years later.

Barbara Windsor12:13

Let's pause for record number three there. Well, dear Lionel Bart, I did things ain't what they used to be for him and then everything was happening for me. I mean, it's great for me to do things and then I did

Barbara Windsor12:25

did the rag trade and suddenly I got the movie of Sparrows Can't Sing and dear Lionel had written a wonderful song for me in Things but used to stop the show every night and uh he came to see a rough cut of Sparrows Can't Sing the film and he took me out afterwards and he said uh for Kippers and Champagne, I'll never forget. I thought, what a combination and he looked, he said, you know, that was lovely that, he said, I'm gonna write you a song.

Barbara Windsor12:47

And he wrote me Sparrows Can't Sing and

Barbara Windsor12:49

I'm just so proud of it.

Barbara Windsor12:52

Pain it a shame sparrows can't sing Think of the joy sparrows might bring But all they can do Is fly in the sky and fly and fly

Presenter13:20

Sparrows Can't Sing, sung by my castaway, Barbara Windsor. We've talked about your height and your accent, Barbara, your other trademarkers and of course the boobs. Your greatest asset, some say.

Barbara Windsor13:26

Or other trademarks of course.

Barbara Windsor13:29

Your great

Barbara Windsor13:30

It was so funny'cause I went into uh Love from Judy when I was fifteen, four foot ten and a half, flat shoes, school uniform, and I came out two and a half years later teachering on high heels with this thirty eight C bust. I mean, I looked like I was falling over all the time,'cause I had this terribly little weight, it's eighteen inches, you see.

Presenter13:48

What happened to the boobs in the meantime? They had to be strapped down.

Barbara Windsor13:51

Oh yes, yes. But a year I never grew in height, you see, and I was playing a ten year old.

Barbara Windsor13:57

And so about a year into um the run, the wardrobe mistress called me up and she with this great lump of elastic.

Barbara Windsor14:04

And said, You've got to put this round your bust, because that's the only thing that's giving you away.

Barbara Windsor14:10

But was there a time when you were embarrassed by it? Yes, I hated it. I hated it. Because I was very protected in love from Judy. And in spite of what they say, this business can be very protective. And I I knew nothing about life. I I I didn't and suddenly I came out, I thought, I didn't know what to do with my evenings. You know, I'd I'd always worked in the evenings and suddenly, you know, going out and going to dances and

Barbara Windsor14:32

guide going, Whoa, look at that you know, and and going past a building site and and whistling and saying, Seeing your feet lately, darling.

Barbara Windsor14:40

I hated it. I loathe it. I'd have done anything to get rid of those bosoms.

Barbara Windsor14:45

Clear.

Presenter14:45

It's been the bosom the butt of endless jokes, I suppose, especially in the carry-on films, because in the end you sought to exploit them. That's right, yes. But have you ever felt any resentment that it was your body that people were giggling at? Or haven't you minded?

Barbara Windsor14:48

I suppose, especially in the cat

Barbara Windsor14:59

No, I n actually never thought it was me. I always thought it was the rea the reaction of the gentleman, of a Sid James. I mean, if if you look actually look at a scene, it's not me showing a left boob or whatever. It's it always pans onto the man's face going, Oh

Barbara Windsor15:15

And that's what they laugh at. It's they laughed at Kenny Williams reacting to My Boobs and Sid James and Peter Butterworth.

Barbara Windsor15:23

I never think it's the actual boobs, the bodies.

Presenter15:25

But your agent once said, and I quote

Barbara Windsor15:27

I quote

Presenter15:28

Barbara isn't a sex symbol, she's a body, a bosom, and a joke.

Barbara Windsor15:33

Oh. Oh, well, that was Peter Rogers, the producer of the of the carry-on films, and he would bloom well say that.

Presenter15:39

With agents like that, who needs enemies?

Barbara Windsor15:41

Miss Mah.

Presenter15:41

This

Barbara Windsor15:41

But does it offend you that? No, no, no, no. It used to offend my mother because up until the carry-ons, I never even.

Barbara Windsor15:49

relied on my boobs for career. It wasn't until I did this one carry-on movie and it all changed.

Presenter15:55

So when you were twenty one, I think, you met um an East End charmer called Ronnie Knight.

Barbara Windsor15:57

I think you

Barbara Windsor16:01

Yeah.

Presenter16:01

Shall we talk about him in a minute? Oh yes. But let's let's pause and have another record first.

Barbara Windsor16:03

But that's

Barbara Windsor16:06

I'm absolutely

Barbara Windsor16:08

Mental about Elvis Presley, and it's my greatest regret I never got to see him live. And funny enough, talking about Ronnie Knight, he used to have a club.

Barbara Windsor16:17

And we just get all the ticket outs up there.

Speaker 116:18

Uh

Barbara Windsor16:19

And I and there used to often be rumours that Elvis was coming over, and I used to say, If he ever comes over, look, you will go to five hundred pounds for a ticket, won't you? which was a lot of money black market in those days.

Speaker 116:30

Recording the trap

Speaker 116:34

I can't walk out

Speaker 116:38

Because I love you too much, baby.

Speaker 116:47

Why can't you see?

Speaker 116:51

What you doing to me?

Speaker 116:55

When you don't believe the word I say

Presenter16:59

Elvis Presley and Suspicious Minds.

Presenter17:02

Tell me about Ronnie Knight, Barbara. Why did you fall?

Barbara Windsor17:04

Twin.

Barbara Windsor17:06

He's lovely. I mean, one's got an image of him now, but he and he is very good looking and he's very charming.

Barbara Windsor17:13

And he was very good for me. I was going through a stage and my agent, Peter Charles, at the time, he said, You know, Barbara, come on, you know, you're not doing it right, you're n you're not performing right and I met Ronnie.

Barbara Windsor17:23

And Ronnie seemed to quieten me down, and he was very good for me, and suddenly my agent said to me, I don't know who you're going out with, but he's marvellous for you.

Presenter17:30

But you very quickly, didn't you, discovered that he wasn't any good? I mean, you discovered he was married with two children. Yes, I mean.

Barbara Windsor17:35

Yes, I mean, once I'd fallen in love with him, suddenly I found out he was

Barbara Windsor17:40

He was married with with one on the way and a child.

Barbara Windsor17:44

And also he got sent to prison but while just before he went into prison

Barbara Windsor17:51

I landed things in what they used to be, which was a show I thought I'd go in for five weeks and I ended up being in it for two and a half years. And I thought, no, it was because I was with him. So and he said to me, We ought to finish and then he wrote to me and said, No, I don't want to. I love you and I want to marry you.

Barbara Windsor18:07

And I said, What about your wife and family? and he said, Well, that was over.

Barbara Windsor18:12

And so he came.

Presenter18:13

Came out to me. He knew the Cray twins, didn't he? And you got to know them as well. Yes, you got.

Barbara Windsor18:17

Yes, I mean, I actually didn't meet the Crays through Ron uh through Ronnie. Um I was in Things in What They Used to Be and it was all about gangsters and all the rest of it. And Ronnie and Reggie and Charlie Cray came to see it.

Barbara Windsor18:28

and they asked to be introduced to me, and they did, and they were thorough gentlemen.

Barbara Windsor18:32

You know, very much.

Presenter18:33

You said that before. You said that Charlie Cray was the most gentlemanly man you've ever met. Oh, he was Charlie.

Barbara Windsor18:38

Handsomest guy I think I'd ever seen. He looked like it, Stephen Queen. And very sweet. And Ronnie and Reggie were charming. But you must have known a little bit about what they were up to. No, I mean, to us. I mean, I'd got out of the East End and seen been in show business and and all I'd heard about oh, Ronnie and Reggie crow, oh, they're the ones with the governor in the East End. You know, if you're in trouble, you go and see them or or they look after the people.

Barbara Windsor19:01

Who can't look after themselves.

Presenter19:04

That's exactly right. So they protected their own, but nevertheless they were, as we know in the end, guilty of the most terrible crimes. How how horrified were you when you discovered the true extent of their villainy?

Barbara Windsor19:07

But nevertheless.

Speaker 119:08

Uh

Speaker 119:10

Oh yeah.

Speaker 119:12

Uh

Barbara Windsor19:12

Yes, yes.

Barbara Windsor19:16

Okay.

Barbara Windsor19:18

Well, it's an awful thing to say, but I just thought, Oh, those two awful men I mean, murder is is dreadful and I just thought, Well, they weren't very nice people. It actually did not do anything to me, it didn't phase me at all.

Barbara Windsor19:30

I mean, I d I didn't read and say this is the most dreadful thing they've done.

Barbara Windsor19:33

When you read about it and you've seen the movie, they were two of the most dreadful people e anyway. Do you still have a soft spot for them? Oh, yes, absolutely. I write to Reggie and Reggie writes to me and he always sends me flowers.

Barbara Windsor19:45

For my birthday, and um and Ronnie's um made toys for me.

Presenter19:51

Now you were married to Ronnie Knight for for what, twenty two years, I think. I lived with him for two years, married for twenty years.

Barbara Windsor19:55

I think

Presenter19:57

You you stood by him um as I said earlier when he stood trial for um the murder of his brother's killer. Yes. Enormous stress, all of that you've gone through.

Barbara Windsor20:02

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor20:06

Gone through.

Presenter20:07

Police at the door at dawn, and the press, and the infidelities, and the deceit. It's a miserable history, Barbara, when you read it.

Barbara Windsor20:09

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor20:13

When you read it

Presenter20:14

Do you ever wonder how you stood?

Barbara Windsor20:16

Yeah. The

Presenter20:16

Yeah. Uh

Barbara Windsor20:17

It was afterwards when when I had the nervous breakdown, because I kept that to myself. I didn't let anybody know that I was having a nervous breakdown. I thought, How the hell did I do it? But I was very tough, you see. And when the time came when they took him away,

Barbara Windsor20:31

at five o'clock in the morning.

Barbara Windsor20:33

It was the day I was leaving him.

Barbara Windsor20:35

And I looked at my best friend and I I just said, look.

Barbara Windsor20:38

Forget, forget all what I've said, I'm leaving, rem I must

Barbara Windsor20:42

Just get myself for him. That's it. You know, channel all my ideas for him. Yeah, because.

Speaker 120:45

Channels to my

Presenter20:46

Okay.

Speaker 120:46

It's for him.

Barbara Windsor20:48

I'd still go back to the fact that I always think I owe a lot to him from the beginning. I always think that he actually almost made me a star.

Presenter20:56

He's uh in Spain now, as you said, uh a fugitive from the police, and you're divorced, you're both remarried indeed.

Barbara Windsor20:57

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor21:02

Good.

Presenter21:02

Do you ever speak to him?

Barbara Windsor21:03

Yeah.

Presenter21:04

Yes, okay.

Barbara Windsor21:04

occasionally. He only phones when he wants something.

Barbara Windsor21:08

He never phones me just to say hello, how are you? That that hurts. That really hurts. But then he speaks to Stephen, my husband now, which is lovely. But was he the love of your life?

Barbara Windsor21:19

Yes, he was, for out of that.

Barbara Windsor21:21

Dear, yes, of course it was Ronnie.

Barbara Windsor21:24

But of course that's all changed now.

Presenter21:25

Ha ha ha ha.

Presenter21:26

As we shall hear, let's have some more music. What's next?

Barbara Windsor21:30

Cars and drive. I mean, I just will never forget that.

Barbara Windsor21:35

That moving moment, Bandaid.

Barbara Windsor21:39

And I remember that they showed a picture of all these starving children.

Barbara Windsor21:44

And they went to go and talk about it and they they oh, I'm going now, you know, reduced to tears and I

Barbara Windsor21:51

I and this was the music they were playing and I just don't think we ever should forget.

Speaker 222:00

Nothing's wrong.

Speaker 222:06

Uh

Speaker 122:06

Who's gonna drive me home?

Speaker 122:10

Tonight

Presenter22:17

The Cars and Drive. It's really the the Carry On films that people know you for best.

Barbara Windsor22:22

It's because they cut them up and put them on television.

Presenter22:22

It's just an itba.

Barbara Windsor22:26

uh IT V s decided to make a compilation.

Barbara Windsor22:31

And Kenny said,'Oh, that's good. We'll get a few quid at last, darling, you know.

Barbara Windsor22:35

And uh they stuck'em out at seven o'clock, eighteen million watched them, called it Carry On Laughing and of course we don't get any money because we'd signed all the rights away. And then the Blooming BBC I'm sorry they said, Oh, we've got a few new movies as well and they they did the same thing and called it I think they called it uh What a Carry On or something like that. So you had two television series looking twenty years younger and not getting paid for it.

Presenter22:59

It's the children who love them, isn't it?

Barbara Windsor23:01

Oh, I don't mind. I get I'm it's six, one, half a dozen or the other. I mean, of course, when I do my pantomimes, they they flock like crazy because of the carry-ons. And also,

Barbara Windsor23:11

Everybody loves the carry-on people. But except for you, they're all dead now and then.

Barbara Windsor23:18

I do you know, a taxi driver said that to me, he said, Oh, it's lovely to see you, Barbara He said, Oh, those lovely Caron people, you're all dead, aren't you? And I was sitting there with all the hair and everything.

Presenter23:24

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor23:28

So I I mean

Barbara Windsor23:30

what I call the the best ones. This is

Barbara Windsor23:33

Um Hattie?

Barbara Windsor23:35

Um Peter Butterworth, I'm trying to do it in the order, Kenny Williams, who I miss tremendously, and the wonderful Charlie Autry.

Barbara Windsor23:43

It's sad. I mean, I I don't understand why Kenny's gone. He had an ulcer. And I can't believe that he died in the night in pain.

Barbara Windsor23:50

Why couldn't he foam me out'cause I was only round the corner?

Barbara Windsor23:53

I'd only seen him a few weeks before.

Barbara Windsor23:56

And I was walking along the street running round, I was going on holiday, I was running round shopping, and I suddenly heard this voice saying, Yes, you see, it's to do with the cannon's balls and I thought, Oh, he's telling that terrible joke

Barbara Windsor24:07

And he was you know, although he was a private man, he used to love to draw attention to himself.

Barbara Windsor24:13

And I thought have I got time to talk to him I said I said Oh, hello hello, Kenny I I I I let him know I'm in a hurry and he went, Oh, hello, look, it's Miss Windsor You know she's married the young man.

Barbara Windsor24:22

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor24:23

Got lots of money now, you know, got the restaurant, you know. I think we should have your sixth record there.

Barbara Windsor24:31

Well, I've been talking about Kenny and uh obviously I and I I love Tony Hancock and of course he worked a lot with Tony, didn't he? And and Hattie Jakes, who's just the most sweetest, gentlest lady ever. She used to sit on the on the set doing her talent crossword.

Barbara Windsor24:46

And I thought wouldn't it be nice to get something that they're all in? And I've chosen from the plane scene where he's trying to get into the plane that oh because Kenny could be so aggravating in real life.

Speaker 124:57

We'll slide cockpit open to see what's wrong.

Speaker 125:01

Good evening.

Speaker 125:09

Mm-hmm.

Presenter25:09

Uh

Speaker 125:09

Yeah. Hold it, you cannot tell me.

Speaker 125:14

What's that?

Speaker 125:15

I taken a cold out here. Can I come in?

Speaker 125:19

There's no room, get off! No, it's gonna be nightmare.

Speaker 125:23

Move over, I'll sit on your left.

Presenter25:25

Uh

Presenter25:28

Tony Hancock, Caddy Jakes and Kenneth Williams in an extract from The Secret Life of Anthony Hancock. It's terrific still, isn't it?

Barbara Windsor25:34

It's terrific still, isn't it?

Presenter25:36

Oh great.

Presenter25:37

Have have you got a favorite part of all the performances you've ever given?

Barbara Windsor25:41

Oh yes, yes, um, uh, Marie Lloyd in Singerude Song. It was lovely,'cause my granddad had always told me stories about Marie Lloyd and it it was lovely to play her. And I still do her. I do an act with m about Marie Lloyd.

Presenter25:53

And television, I I mean, apart from those early days of the rag trip with Miriam Carlin, you've not really bothered with it.

Barbara Windsor25:56

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor25:58

No, I've never been very happy doing television. I know. Well, because I feel like I'm terribly over the top. I mean, that's why it was good to do the carry-ons,'cause they were all over the top as well.

Presenter26:01

I know.

Barbara Windsor26:07

I'm a theatre person and I'm a big performer and I

Barbara Windsor26:11

I always shudder when I see myself on television. That's why I only did one series of The Rat Train. I wouldn't do it anymore.

Presenter26:17

And now you've married again, as you were saying, to a man twenty years your junior.

Barbara Windsor26:18

Do you asset?

Barbara Windsor26:21

Yeah.

Presenter26:21

A man who I suspect couldn't be more different from your first husband. Oh, God, he's.

Barbara Windsor26:26

So different. The only thing they've got in common is they're both very, very, very generous with their money.

Presenter26:26

Neal

Barbara Windsor26:31

And Stephen is a joy. I mean, he's so sensible, so together. He's one of those very strong Yorkshiremen, you know. And he's actually changed me a hell of a lot, because I made all the decisions before. It's caused a lot of rows. In fact, I've rowed more Stephen than I ever did with Ronnie Knight.

Barbara Windsor26:46

because it's no, we won't do it the way Biss Windsor wants it. We'll have a think about it, you know. And uh and it it was very sad for Stephen because when he met me, he actually didn't he said I didn't know you were that famous when it all hit the headlines.

Barbara Windsor27:01

And he he knew that when we got in the Four Wars I was a physical wreck, a mental wreck.

Barbara Windsor27:06

I mean, I was going out on stage and performing, and coming back, and throwing up, and crying, and just in a state. And he nursed me, and looked after me, and

Barbara Windsor27:18

He bought that business and and everyone said, Oh, isn't it of course it can't go wrong, the pub and restaurant he's got Barbara Windsor as his wife, everybody will go there But of course it was much harder because they expect far much more because he's married to me.

Presenter27:30

So do you think they Uh

Barbara Windsor27:31

Some for the big

Presenter27:31

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor27:31

Or do they come to see you? They might you might get someone come in and ask whether I'm there or not, but

Barbara Windsor27:36

They come to see him, which is it's great for him.

Presenter27:39

Next record.

Barbara Windsor27:42

Well, we're

Barbara Windsor27:44

When Steve and I got married, we wanted a quiet wedding. We didn't want the circus, the media circus. So I saw this advertisement called Weddings in Paradise in Ocheria, Jamaica. So I said, oh, that'll be nice. Anyway, that's what we did. It was quite funny, actually. It was a bit I mean my my life is a bit like a Joe Orton play and all the carry-ons. I mean it's a cross between the two. And uh it was lovely. It was a lovely afternoon on the beach but the lovely black priest, he he sang um the song that they play at funerals, you know, The Lord is My Shepherd. I mean it was all wrong. The whole the whole ceremony was wrong. But we laughed and we giggled. And when it came to the evening, the local disco guy stood up and he said, We have that wonderful actress from the Carry-On Films and she said, She's chosen our little island to get married. And so I'm going to sing a song and dedicate it to her and her husband. And he sang.

Barbara Windsor28:35

Every time you go away.

Barbara Windsor28:38

And we only just got married.

Speaker 228:45

Take a piece of me

Speaker 228:52

Time you go, oh man.

Speaker 228:57

Take a piece of meat

Presenter29:08

Paul Young and Every Time You Go Away.

Presenter29:10

You've been in your time, Barbara, painfully honest, really, about your life. I mean, very open about its shortcomings or your misdemeanours and so on. Do you always feel that need to be quite so

Barbara Windsor29:21

Yes, I get told off.

Presenter29:21

Yes, I

Barbara Windsor29:23

I get told off about it. I think maybe if you're in this business you have to be honest, because it there's so much phoniness in this business, isn't there? Yeah.

Presenter29:32

the wisest thing to be quite so open. When I've got into trouble. over that, you see. But it's not you I'm the way I am. What will you ponder about on on your desert island? What what wisdoms will you decide you've won through your experiences?

Barbara Windsor29:46

I don't think negatively. I don't think about the rotten things and I won't think about those things. I will pick out all those wonderful things that have happened in my life and all the terrific people I've known and how lucky that I got paid

Barbara Windsor29:59

paid for doing something that I absolutely adored.

Presenter30:02

Will you have a regret or two to brood on at all? A you know, genuine regret?

Barbara Windsor30:06

Well, yes, that that I wasn't more together with my mother, that I didn't understand her, that she she was only doing it for me, you know. I mean, every time she uh nagged and whatever, yes, it was for her bar, and that I I didn't get that relationship with my father going, which I regret. And uh

Barbara Windsor30:27

Children?

Barbara Windsor30:28

Yes, that yes. I would I would love children with with Stephen because he's got great qualities. He's he's lovely, yes. But I never had the desire to have children. It never really worried me. And and with the way the world is going on now, I I'd I'd sit I'm a bit of a worrier.

Barbara Windsor30:44

You know, and I think I'd worry too much.

Presenter30:47

But you have a large enough dollop of ambition to make you want to escape from this island, do you?

Presenter30:53

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor30:53

I'd want to get off of it. I'd be standing there on the edge of the sea and I'd be I'd be waving or whatever, you know what I mean, and say, Please come and find me I mean, I'd like it, I suppose, just for a little while and then I'd I'd wanna get back and and see me mates and

Barbara Windsor31:07

Gather walk around Soho.

Barbara Windsor31:09

But you'd play some rousing music to end with, while you were. Well, I'm very patriotic and I thought, well

Presenter31:12

Molan

Speaker 131:12

Uh

Barbara Windsor31:15

I can imagine me standing on that, tears flowing down land of hope and glory being played.

Presenter32:20

Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March, Number One, in D Major, Land of Hope and Glory, played by the BBC Symphony Orchestra with the BBC Singers and Symphony Chorus conducted by James Lochran.

Presenter32:32

So which one of the eight is it to be, Barbara?

Barbara Windsor32:34

Yeah.

Barbara Windsor32:35

Oh, goodness me I think at the end of the day I'd like a good laugh, so I'll go for Tony, Hattie, and Kenny.

Barbara Windsor32:42

In full, absolutely. The secret life of Antony McClintock.

Presenter32:43

The Secret Life of Anthony Hencock.

Barbara Windsor32:46

A book. You've got the Bible and you've got Shakespeare. I think I would like a book of Hollywood, the biggest book possible.

Barbara Windsor32:53

I love reading about all the stars, and I'd I'd I'd want to read about all the glamour and all the rest of it. Yes, that's what I'd like. And a luxury.

Barbara Windsor33:00

I think what I'd like is a lot of writing materials.

Barbara Windsor33:03

I want an a union jack.

Barbara Windsor33:07

To wave to the land of everyone.

Presenter33:08

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter33:12

All right.

Presenter33:14

Bad.

Barbara Windsor33:14

Glass.

Presenter33:14

Yes. Not much to ask.

Barbara Windsor33:16

Uh

Presenter33:17

Barbara Windsor, thank you very much indeed. Oh, and thank you, Sue, darling.

Speaker 233:28

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.