Lord Charteris

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway this week is a pillar of the British establishment. Educated at Eton and Sandhurst, he became, at the age of thirty six, private secretary to the young Princess Elizabeth.

Presenter0:39

He was to serve her for nearly thirty years, only retiring when, as Queen Elizabeth the Second, she celebrated her silver jubilee.

Presenter0:47

Discreet but influential, he helped guide the sovereign, and to that extent the nation, through some of the most important moments of her life. After leaving the royal household he passed easily into employment in another very privileged world. For the past twelve years he has been provost of Eton.

Presenter1:04

He is Lord Charteress of Amesfield.

Presenter1:07

A lifetime of service, Lord Charter, is in and to some of our great institutions. Do you think you were always cut out for such work?

Lord Charteris1:16

No, I don't really think I was.

Lord Charteris1:20

I mean, I was absolutely flabbergasted when I was asked to be private secretary to Princess Elizabeth.

Lord Charteris1:27

but not nearly as flabbergasted as I was when I was asked to be Provost of Eton.

Presenter1:31

But do you enjoy ceremony and traditional?

Lord Charteris1:33

Yes, I do enjoy the ceremony, and I've come to enjoy it more and more as I've done it.

Lord Charteris1:38

And I think I'm quite suited to that sort of life.

Presenter1:42

Do you do you think, though, you were cut out uh for it from uh from your early life, from your upbringing?

Lord Charteris1:47

Well, it was in a way. I I mean, I I came from families that lived in great houses, so none of it was unfamiliar. I mean, the furniture polish at Buckingham Palace smelt exactly the same as the furniture polish at my grandparents' house.

Lord Charteris2:04

In Scotland, so I felt quite familiar there.

Presenter2:07

Well, now, how would uh how do you view your rather um unceremonious removal to a desert island? Do you like the idea?

Lord Charteris2:15

I like um the wind and I like the sea.

Lord Charteris2:20

Uh I love um wilderness.

Lord Charteris2:23

So I think that I shall find much that I will enjoy in that desert island, and I'm not afraid of being alone, although I love people.

Lord Charteris2:32

And I certainly wouldn't want to have to stay there too long, and I shall make every possible effort to get off the place. But whilst I'm there, I've every intention of enjoying it.

Presenter2:41

Are you a practical man?

Lord Charteris2:42

Yes, very practical.

Lord Charteris2:44

I'm good with my hands.

Lord Charteris2:46

I'm a good hunter.

Lord Charteris2:48

And um I'm not a bad fisherman, so I shall be all right at that side of it. And I'm a very good cook.

Presenter2:52

And how do you think?

Presenter2:54

And how will you escape?

Lord Charteris2:56

Well, I shall probably have to build a boat, won't I?

Lord Charteris2:59

And I'm perfectly prepared to take that on.

Presenter3:02

In the meantime, some music. What's what's the first record?

Lord Charteris3:04

Well, I think that the first uh music I'd like to have is Mendelssohn's Hebridean Overture, which will make me think of my early youth when I used to go to my holidays to the Outer Hebrides of Scotland, and there I learned to love solitude and wilderness.

Presenter4:21

Mendelssohn's Fingles Cave, part of the Hebrides overture played by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Claudio Abardo.

Presenter4:29

Tell me about your title, your Lord Charteress of Amesfield.

Lord Charteris4:33

Bethroad

Presenter4:33

What or where is Amesfield?

Lord Charteris4:35

Well, there are two Ames fields, and the original Ames field

Lord Charteris4:39

which belonged to the Torges family is in Dumpfries.

Lord Charteris4:42

But a member of the Chargers family, who later became known as the Wicked Colonel.

Lord Charteris4:47

moved up to Eastlothian and built at Haddington.

Lord Charteris4:53

Amesfield House.

Lord Charteris4:55

And it is often that bit of Emsfield.

Lord Charteris4:58

That I take my title.

Presenter4:59

And why was he wicked?

Lord Charteris5:01

Well, that was his nature, but he really was wicked. I mean, he he committed the most horrible things. He was a rapist. He was.

Lord Charteris5:09

A gambler.

Lord Charteris5:11

Probably a murderer.

Lord Charteris5:13

He was condemned to death, but he was reprieved by, I think it was King Charles I.

Lord Charteris5:20

And um

Lord Charteris5:22

He was a bad man.

Presenter5:23

But you didn't mind taking the name of his house in a hotel.

Lord Charteris5:25

Not a bit, no.

Lord Charteris5:27

Yeah.

Presenter5:27

It's your journey.

Lord Charteris5:28

Oh no, the this whole thing will be made respectable long after that.

Presenter5:28

Oh no.

Presenter5:32

So all these all those sort of f familial predilections have long died out, I'm quite sure, before you were born. Um you were born, what, just before the First World War?

Lord Charteris5:36

I'm not quite sure.

Lord Charteris5:40

I was born in nineteen thirteen, yes.

Presenter5:41

And your father, Lord Elko, was killed by the father.

Lord Charteris5:43

My father Lord Elko was killed in 1916. He was fighting in the Sinai Desert.

Presenter5:51

Do you remember him at all?

Lord Charteris5:52

No, I don't remember him at all, because he'd been

Lord Charteris5:54

out of the country for a year and a half.

Lord Charteris5:58

And so I never knew him.

Presenter5:59

Do do you have any memories of the First World War at all?

Lord Charteris6:02

Well, I do oddly that my earliest memory of all is from nineteen seventeen, the Daylight Air Raid by Zeppelins on London. My nanny was pushing me in my pram towards our house in Montagu Square, and she thought I'd better get under cover now this raid's going on, so she rang a doorbell, which was opened by a person. She then lifted me out of the pram, but she'd forgotten to undo the strap.

Lord Charteris6:27

So the whole pram lifted in the ground. I remember that particularly well.

Presenter6:31

You would have been, what, about three and a half?

Lord Charteris6:33

I was four. Yes. Yes, young four. Yes.

Presenter6:34

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter6:35

Yes. And then after the war you were you were packed off to prep school, which is

Lord Charteris6:39

I went to Lockers Park Homer Hampstead.

Presenter6:41

I think

Lord Charteris6:43

I think terrible, really. Um it was a kindly place. I have no complaints against it.

Lord Charteris6:48

But I mean I always longed to be at home, you know, I'm I wasn't one of those people who wanted to be at school all the time.

Presenter6:54

And thence to Eton, where you find yourself once more, what, fifty years on. I'd like to hear about the differences between those two Etons in a moment, but let's let's just pause for your second record, because I think it's quite accurate. Would you like another record?

Lord Charteris7:01

Yeah.

Lord Charteris7:06

Would you like another record? Well, let's have Music at Eton. And this is...

Lord Charteris7:12

Um has got lots of bits in it.

Lord Charteris7:14

It's got the Carmen, it's got the Eden Boating Song.

Lord Charteris7:17

But the bit I want to play at this moment is a special bit.

Lord Charteris7:22

which was composed by Francis Greer, who is an old Etonian, who was Eton's first music scholar, and it is called God Who Made the Earth and Sky, and it is sung here by the Eton College Choir, and the Eton College Choir is composed entirely of Etonians, either boys or beaks.

Presenter8:36

Eton College Choir singing God Who Made the Earth and Sky by Francis Greer.

Presenter8:41

Let's hear first, then, Lord Charterers, if we may, about the Eton of nineteen twenty seven an austere place, by all accounts.

Lord Charteris8:48

A very austere place. Of course, arriving there as a small boy.

Lord Charteris8:53

One was immediately enraptured at having one's own room.

Lord Charteris8:57

and I remember the excitement of having my own water can.

Lord Charteris9:01

And an armchair to sit in.

Lord Charteris9:03

And so although it was a in some ways a savage place then, it was very exciting and very maturing to go there.

Presenter9:10

Why was it savage, in what sort of ways?

Lord Charteris9:12

Well, but it was savage, I think, because we really were under fear of being flogged the whole time. The senior boys in each house were called the library.

Lord Charteris9:21

And they were allowed to what's called tan one. Oh, that's finished now.

Presenter9:25

But what sort of reasons would they have for tanning?

Lord Charteris9:27

Oh, f f anything like not taking enough exercise or just for fun almost.

Presenter9:33

Did did you manage to shine at all at E?

Lord Charteris9:35

No, I was dim at Eaton. I was honourable.

Lord Charteris9:39

I wasn't particularly good at games, and I wasn't, alas, at all good at my books. And one of the few things that I deeply regret in life is not having been allowed to learn Greek.

Lord Charteris9:51

I was what's called a capper boy, which meant that I was considered too stupid to learn Greek. And I was fascinated by the sound of the Greek language. So there's been a.

Lord Charteris10:01

and still is a matter of sorrow for me. I didn't do that.

Presenter10:04

Were you considered too stupid as well to go to university then?

Lord Charteris10:08

No, I think I could have got to university, but my mother I was frightfully untidy. I was called Inky Chartres.

Lord Charteris10:15

And um my mother

Lord Charteris10:18

Thought that I needed smartening up, said you better go into the regiment, you see. So I went to the King's Royal Rifle Corps via Sandhurst, where indeed I certainly did get smartened up.

Presenter10:26

You stop being a key charter.

Lord Charteris10:27

But I do regret not having been to university.

Presenter10:32

So back to Eaton. So what's changed there? There's no flogging, no beating to do.

Lord Charteris10:36

Well, it's more than that. There's a much broader education. There's a much kinder spirit between

Lord Charteris10:43

Old boys and young boys.

Lord Charteris10:45

I've hardly ever encountered an Eton boy who isn't enjoying himself.

Lord Charteris10:51

Of course there are some.

Lord Charteris10:53

As there always are. We've got twelve hundred and sixty four and there's going to be some

Lord Charteris10:57

Misfits, but basically they're an extremely happy, hard-working community.

Lord Charteris11:02

And it's lovely.

Presenter11:04

Another record.

Lord Charteris11:05

Another record. Well, I think that

Lord Charteris11:08

I'm going to ask now for

Lord Charteris11:10

Schubert's trio in B-flat, oppos 99, and the reason why I want it is this: that in Christmas 1938.

Lord Charteris11:19

The lady who is now my wife.

Lord Charteris11:21

gave it to me when we were courting.

Lord Charteris11:24

Therefore I obviously got to have that with me to remind me of those golden days, and I would particularly like it to hear it played by the Israel piano trio, because we were later married in Jerusalem.

Presenter12:25

Part of the second movement of Schubert's trio in B-flat major, opus ninety-nine, played by the Israel piano trio. So your records, your music are all reminders of

Lord Charteris12:35

Well, I think it would be lovely because it will remind me of um as I say those golden courting days, but also just by itself, think of sitting on the beach in the moonlight and playing that yourself. Make you happy, wouldn't it? Wonderful.

Presenter12:47

Beautiful peace. We we heard about your your first war, Lord Charterers. What about your second? Where where were you when it broke out?

Lord Charteris12:55

I was in Egypt. I'd been in Egypt for about six or seven months, and we'd had a wonderful time learning to navigate in the desert, and that was in the days when the desert was clean, and it was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

Lord Charteris13:07

But unfortunately I was struck down with what they thought was a sort of rheumatic fever, and both my ankles got hot and red and hopeless. And so I was invalided home, more or less, when the war began, and all was well until we were torpedoed in the Bay of Biscay.

Lord Charteris13:26

on a ship called the Yorkshire.

Lord Charteris13:28

And um

Lord Charteris13:30

I hadn't stood on my feet for eight weeks, and I didn't think I could. I tried the day before and failed. But I can tell you, if your ship storped, you can get up and walk, whatever your condition.

Presenter13:41

But could you swim more to the point?

Lord Charteris13:42

Well, I had to because um my lifeboat I was supposed to go to had been overturned and I couldn't get into that. But I got into what's called the emergency starboard lifeboat.

Lord Charteris13:53

and slid down ropes and landed with a frightful bump in this boat.

Lord Charteris13:58

And there were twelve of us in it and

Lord Charteris14:01

We were still tied to the big ship as she sank.

Lord Charteris14:05

and I can remember quite well the Indian barber who'd shaved me.

Lord Charteris14:09

The day before.

Lord Charteris14:11

Trying to cut the ropes with the razor.

Lord Charteris14:14

But he failed.

Lord Charteris14:17

and the big big ship slipped back and I was pinned by a rope across my chest.

Lord Charteris14:23

and upset on to the ship she sank.

Lord Charteris14:27

And I then went under and I kicked and I felt ropes pulling on my legs.

Lord Charteris14:33

BAP

Lord Charteris14:34

I'm a lucky man. I came to the top.

Lord Charteris14:37

And of the twelve people

Lord Charteris14:39

In that lifeboat four came to the top, and the other eight were never seen again, so they must have been sucked under.

Lord Charteris14:45

And then I found myself I climbed onto a life raft, and I was soon joined by my cabin steward. And we stayed on that raft for about a couple of hours, and then we were taken in tow by one of the lifeboats, and all this happened at three o'clock in the afternoon, and at midnight we were picked up

Lord Charteris15:04

by an American ship called the Independence Hall.

Lord Charteris15:08

And we were taken to Bordeaux.

Lord Charteris15:11

And I was then had to spend the night in a sort of lunatic asylum. I think they thought I was around the bend, but I kept on saying, I'm all right, you see.

Presenter15:19

What the joy of being alive

Lord Charteris15:21

For the drawbacking landed, anyway, I insisted on going home with all the others, and we went home.

Lord Charteris15:27

And then I was a little bit in Netley Hospital and I was completely cured. It was a case of carbihydrotherapy.

Presenter15:34

But the rheumatics had completely disappeared.

Lord Charteris15:35

Beat the gum.

Presenter15:37

And do you put it down to that, or shock, or

Lord Charteris15:38

I don't know why. I think I was getting better anyway.

Presenter15:42

But it makes sense.

Presenter15:44

And then back to the desert.

Lord Charteris15:46

And then back to the desert.

Presenter15:47

Shall we have your false record?

Lord Charteris15:48

Well, I want something to remind me of the desert, and it simply has to be Lily Marlene, um, which was of course the song of the Afrika Corps. But they were honourable opponents. And if I could have it sung by that creature I loved so much, Marlena Dietrich, I should be very grateful.

Speaker 416:10

Outside the barracks, by the corner line.

Speaker 416:15

I'll always stand and wait for you at night.

Speaker 416:20

We will create.

Speaker 416:22

A world for two, I'll wait for you the whole night through.

Presenter16:30

For you, little

Presenter16:34

Marlane Dietrich, singing Lily Marlane. That one's for singing to in the moonlight, I think, Lord Chelsea said.

Lord Charteris16:40

They tried.

Presenter16:40

Now, you were still in the army, I think, when you were approached about working for the young Princess Elizabeth. Can you recall where you were when the Princess Emma?

Lord Charteris16:47

Yeah.

Lord Charteris16:49

Yes, I could recall exactly where I was. I found myself very happily, in a way, second in command of a training battalion at um Bushfield Camp.

Lord Charteris16:59

and I suddenly received a letter from my old friend

Lord Charteris17:01

John Carville.

Lord Charteris17:04

saying that if I was invited to become private secretary to Princess Elizabeth, would I accept?

Lord Charteris17:10

And um after much thought,

Lord Charteris17:14

I said yes, I would.

Presenter17:16

So, in effect, you weren't offered the job until you'd accepted it, as it were.

Lord Charteris17:20

Well then I had to be interviewed and all that, you see.

Presenter17:22

But that's that's the way it's done. That's the total problem.

Lord Charteris17:23

Yes, of course it was the way it was done that time anyway.

Presenter17:26

Wh why you, do you think? I mean, you said earlier on you were very surprised. What what qualities do you think you had which qualified you for the invitation?

Lord Charteris17:34

It's I'm afraid I must say it was a question of nepotism.

Lord Charteris17:38

And a jolly good way of appointing anybody, if I may say so. The point really was that.

Lord Charteris17:44

Jock Colville had served the Princess Elizabeth.

Lord Charteris17:49

For a year and a half, whatever it was, and wanted to go back to the Foreign Service. And Princess said, Well, that's fine, but you'll find me somebody else. So Jock set to work to do it, and he happened to know me, happened to know my wife, and I suppose he thought I'd be the suitable. And I also happened to know Sir Alan Nassles, who was the private secretary to the King, who'd been a great friend of my mother's, and there it was.

Presenter18:12

You knew all the right people.

Lord Charteris18:13

But I knew the right people.

Presenter18:14

And they knew you.

Lord Charteris18:15

And they knew me.

Presenter18:16

A two-year-old

Lord Charteris18:17

At least they thought they knew me.

Presenter18:19

Well, there was you stayed for 28 years. There was a two-year trial period, I think, in the beginning.

Lord Charteris18:24

That's right. I came on a two-year second from the army.

Presenter18:28

But you had no doubts when the two years were up.

Lord Charteris18:31

No, and well, I had no doubts when eighteen months were out and after eighteen months I

Lord Charteris18:37

I asked Prince Elizabeth whether I matched it on it, and she said yes very sweetly.

Lord Charteris18:41

And stay on I did, so I resigned from the army, and then of course six months later the king died.

Presenter18:46

So, of course, dramatically the job description was changed.

Lord Charteris18:50

Absolutely. Instead of being private secretary of Princess Elizabeth, I was assistant private secretary in a much bigger establishment.

Presenter18:58

To the Queen.

Lord Charteris18:59

For the Queen.

Presenter19:00

I know that Convention forbids you from talking much about the job, but can you at all define the job of a Royal Private Secretary? What are his duties?

Lord Charteris19:10

Well, the job of the private secretary

Lord Charteris19:13

It's first of all, I think, he is a contact.

Lord Charteris19:16

Between the Queen

Lord Charteris19:18

and her government.

Lord Charteris19:20

or governments, because not only the king governments of the United Kingdom, but also the governments.

Lord Charteris19:26

or the governor generals of the countries

Lord Charteris19:29

the Commonwealth of which she is sovereign.

Lord Charteris19:32

The Private Secretary also looks after the Queen's engagements.

Lord Charteris19:38

He's responsible for looking after the artists who paint her or the sculptors who sculpt her.

Lord Charteris19:44

And um responsible for arranging her audiences, and so on and so on. A very interesting job.

Presenter19:52

What you describe really is a man who is really the the eyes and ears and sometimes the mouth of the monarch behind the corner.

Lord Charteris19:58

Well, I think that's perfectly true. I mean, you you know, you have to make sure that the sovereign knows what's going on insofar as you can.

Lord Charteris20:06

You make sure that when she's going to have an audience she's got a bit of paper in front of her uh telling about the person and so on.

Presenter20:13

And you also make sure that other people know what she is thinking.

Lord Charteris20:17

Uh well you have the link.

Presenter20:19

Hmm.

Presenter20:19

But you must have become great friends too.

Lord Charteris20:22

Well, I love her very much.

Presenter20:24

It must also be or have been a great and constant strain to have a job about which really you could speak so little to other people.

Lord Charteris20:33

I never felt it that way.

Lord Charteris20:36

Odd day. I never felt the job was a strain. I thought it was I mean, it's hard work.

Presenter20:40

Hmm.

Lord Charteris20:40

But, um, you know, the Queen's a marvellous person to work for, and she's a buck you up-oh person. She makes you feel much better when you're doing business with her.

Presenter20:48

How does she do that?

Lord Charteris20:49

By her personality.

Presenter20:51

Do you miss it?

Lord Charteris20:51

Yeah.

Presenter20:55

Do you miss it all very much?

Lord Charteris20:57

No.

Lord Charteris20:59

I don't miss it now.

Lord Charteris21:01

No good missing things, is it?

Presenter21:02

Let's have your next record.

Lord Charteris21:04

Well, my next record must be something to remind me of my um service in the royal household.

Lord Charteris21:10

And it would be, I think, little jejeune to have the national anthem.

Lord Charteris21:16

Although I feel very strongly that the words are right, God save the Queen. But what I would like instead, rather strangely, is waltzing with Tilda, because that will remind me of the early days and touring in Australia.

Lord Charteris21:30

Once a jelly swagman

Lord Charteris21:33

Can buy a billabong

Lord Charteris21:36

Under the shade of a culabah tree

Lord Charteris21:43

Yeah.

Speaker 421:43

And each

Lord Charteris21:43

Same as you walk.

Lord Charteris21:46

And he waited till his billy boy

Lord Charteris21:50

You'll come a wolf and mature

Presenter21:56

More singing on the desert island to that one, I can tell. That was Tom and Ted Lagarde.

Lord Charteris21:57

Done.

Presenter22:01

Singing Walsing Matilda accompanied by Lord Chartress of Amesfield.

Presenter22:06

You served the Queen, Lord Charterers, during a a hugely important period in in the history of the British monarchy, a a period during which it made itself much more accessible, I think, with with the film of the royal family at play and

Lord Charteris22:16

Uh

Speaker 422:16

Tink with

Speaker 422:18

Family and plan

Presenter22:19

Then interviews on television and of course the invention of the walkabout. Were those things, would you say, um invented were they conscious decisions, would you say, to bring the monarchy into the modern age?

Lord Charteris22:23

Yeah, try it.

Lord Charteris22:32

Yes, I mean, I think that that everybody, starting starting with Prince Philip and the Queen, um, realized that they had to get

Lord Charteris22:42

into this world.

Lord Charteris22:44

And I mean the decision to make the Royal Family film was of course deliberate.

Lord Charteris22:50

I think the decision to do the walkabouts was also deliberate, although that wasn't quite as much a change as you might think, as it had always been a bit of walkabout. It was just made more of.

Lord Charteris23:01

So I think the answer to your question is yes, but

Lord Charteris23:05

Looking back, it's a sort of gradual process.

Presenter23:08

Hmm.

Lord Charteris23:08

Wasn't a lot of s gritty decisions for me.

Presenter23:11

But of course some people um prefer a monarchy which which is aloof, which has an aura of of mystique about it. Do you think there's something to be said for that?

Lord Charteris23:19

Well, I think that the monarchy will not survive unless it retains its mystique. I quite agree with you, Dar. And it's a very difficult balance to get it right.

Lord Charteris23:28

Personally, I think in an extraordinary way it has been got right.

Lord Charteris23:33

But every now and then you'll have to go a little bit to get a little stuffier, perhaps.

Lord Charteris23:37

You know?

Presenter23:38

It's very difficult, isn't it? Because the nation wants to know and the nation wants to know.

Lord Charteris23:41

The nation wants to know and the nation has a right to know. On the other hand,

Lord Charteris23:46

The incumbents have a right to their privacy.

Lord Charteris23:49

And

Lord Charteris23:51

As I say

Lord Charteris23:52

Their survival depends on mystery.

Presenter23:56

And if it's a strain working for the royal family, it must be an even greater strain being a member of it.

Lord Charteris23:58

And the

Lord Charteris24:01

That's right.

Presenter24:02

On the other hand, all of us would love to know which eight records any one of them would take to a desert island, you see.

Lord Charteris24:06

Yeah.

Lord Charteris24:09

I don't think they'd take any of mine.

Presenter24:09

BANK

Lord Charteris24:11

Oh, I do know.

Presenter24:13

Well, let's have your next one, because it's a very unpredictable choice.

Lord Charteris24:16

Well, you see, I've got to dance. I adore dancing.

Lord Charteris24:19

And I shall have to dance on the sand.

Lord Charteris24:23

And therefore, I'm going to take some rock and roll, and I want to rock around the clock.

Lord Charteris24:28

1, 2, 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock, rock. 5, 6, 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock, rock. 9, 10, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock, rock. We're gonna rock. Around 10 o'clock tonight. What's up? Join me, hot. We'll have some

Speaker 424:42

When the clock strikes one

Speaker 424:46

Yeah.

Speaker 424:48

Uh

Lord Charteris24:48

But they won't hold the body all the way around the

Presenter24:54

Bill Haley and his Comets and Rock Around the Clock. What sort of dance will you do to that then?

Lord Charteris24:59

Well, I will just do what the rhythm tells me to do. It'll be free moving. I shan't have anybody to do it with, except in my imagination. And I shall need a nice, good, flat bit of hard beach.

Lord Charteris25:11

And I shall turn on the record and I shall let it go.

Presenter25:14

And there's nobody to see you, so it doesn't matter.

Lord Charteris25:16

Nope.

Presenter25:17

Terrific.

Lord Charteris25:17

That's right.

Presenter25:18

Now you're also, Lord Charteress, in in this action pact retirement of yours, chairman of the National Heritage Memorial Fund, which spends several millions a year saving treasures for the nation. What are you proudest of having saved?

Lord Charteris25:34

I think

Lord Charteris25:35

The most important thing we've done is probably to help save.

Lord Charteris25:40

Some of the great country houses, particularly

Lord Charteris25:43

Belton

Lord Charteris25:44

And Keddlestone?

Lord Charteris25:46

Cannons Ashby.

Lord Charteris25:48

Fivey Castle

Lord Charteris25:49

Let's leave it at that.

Lord Charteris25:51

Because I think that these great country houses represent

Lord Charteris25:55

the greatest or one of the greatest contributions which

Lord Charteris25:59

Our country has made civilization, because it's not only the house, it's also the works of art.

Lord Charteris26:05

which are in them.

Lord Charteris26:07

And it is also the memory of the life that was lived there, which was very often political and very important to the life of the country.

Lord Charteris26:13

And so I think that that gives me the most satisfaction.

Presenter26:16

Do you think on the whole we the British are are careful enough about our heritage or are we neglectful of it?

Lord Charteris26:22

No, I think we do pretty well, really. And because we're doing much better, we were Kellys.

Lord Charteris26:27

in the old days. I mean, we

Lord Charteris26:30

Endless waste taking place. But you see, the idea of the heritage is quite new, in my opinion.

Lord Charteris26:37

What's new about it is that

Lord Charteris26:40

We've now come to the conclusion that it we own it, that the people own it, it doesn't belong.

Lord Charteris26:45

Exclusively to the owners.

Presenter26:48

But you must quite new

Lord Charteris26:48

But you must quite new Liz.

Presenter26:49

But you must get hundreds of applications a year. How do you decide? You've got a limited amount of money to handle.

Lord Charteris26:55

Well, there's a limited amount of money, incidentally, it all comes out of your pocket. It comes out of the taxpayers' pocket and it's given to us by the the government, by the Dep Office of Arts and Libraries and the Department of the Environment.

Lord Charteris27:07

But we don't are not exactly overwhelmed by requests because

Lord Charteris27:12

Only certain people

Lord Charteris27:14

are able to be helped by us.

Lord Charteris27:17

Individuals are not.

Lord Charteris27:18

It's got to be the museums or the galleries or the national trusts or county councils or charities that look after the heritage.

Presenter27:27

But everything depends, as you say, on how much money the Government gives you to hand on. I'm told that you're you're very good at taking ministers by the elbow and persuading them to see you right, as it were.

Lord Charteris27:30

The government gives you to have

Lord Charteris27:39

Well, ministers, I'd put it, if I may put it the other way around, that ministers have been very.

Lord Charteris27:44

Good.

Lord Charteris27:46

in making sure that we have money.

Lord Charteris27:49

Well, I think they've been very wise in doing so, because I think that what we've been able to do, I think, is quite remarkable.

Lord Charteris27:56

And

Lord Charteris27:58

It's not only what we've saved, but it's also

Lord Charteris28:02

The fact that there hasn't been a series of most gossip rows.

Lord Charteris28:07

Over.

Lord Charteris28:08

These houses as there was over the Rosebury House Mintmore.

Lord Charteris28:12

And of course it was a result of the rival event more that we were brought into existence.

Presenter28:16

Let's have record number seven.

Lord Charteris28:18

Well, my number seven is to do very much with the National Heritage Memorial Fund, the Royal Philharmonic Society, owned.

Lord Charteris28:26

the twelve manuscripts of Haydn's London symphonies, and these were all on loan and accessible to scholars in the British Library.

Lord Charteris28:37

Now the Royal Philharmonic Society needed money in order that they can continue their proper function, which is to give patronage and to sponsor new artists, new conductors, and new pieces of work. And so

Lord Charteris28:50

They wanted to sell the manuscripts, and we provided 400,000 for the British Library.

Lord Charteris28:58

So that they could buy them. And these symphonies are now owned permanently.

Lord Charteris29:03

By the British Library.

Lord Charteris29:05

And the money which we contributed to 400,000 has helped the Royal Philharmonic Society to do its job. So your money in this case has worked twice, and that's what we like to achieve. And my record I've chosen is the symphony called The Surprise. And why I've chosen that is because you never know what's going to happen next to the National Heritage Memorial Fund. It's full of surprises.

Presenter30:31

The opening of Haydn's Surprise Symphony, number ninety four in G major, played by the Koncertgebau Orchestra of Amsterdam, conducted by Sir Colin Davis.

Presenter30:41

Well, now as you as you sit on the desert island and look back on your life.

Lord Charteris30:46

Um

Presenter30:47

I really think I know the answer to this question. You will look back with enormous happiness and pleasure, I presume. No regret?

Lord Charteris30:52

And gratitude.

Lord Charteris30:54

I've been frightfully lucky.

Presenter30:56

Have you?

Lord Charteris30:57

Yes, I'm terribly lucky. I don't know what luck is, mind you, but I'm lucky.

Presenter31:01

You never mentioned at all when we were talking um about your early life any any ambition, any goal that you nursed, have you? Did you have a

Lord Charteris31:08

I don't think I ever had much ambition, really.

Lord Charteris31:11

I certainly had no political ambition.

Lord Charteris31:13

I don't remember ambition as being

Lord Charteris31:16

A driving force, and yet I suppose it must have been, really. But I I'd never sort of felt it that way.

Presenter31:22

Perhaps your ambition then was simply to be an honourable man and do an honourable job?

Lord Charteris31:26

Well, that's a high fallusion way of saying it, but I th I think that's about right. I certainly I had no overweening ambition.

Presenter31:37

But uh you succeeded in life nevertheless.

Lord Charteris31:40

Well, I've been very lucky, as I say again extremely lucky.

Presenter31:43

Last record.

Lord Charteris31:45

My last record

Lord Charteris31:46

is Beethoven's Emperor Concerto.

Lord Charteris31:51

And I need to have this because I think it's a bit of music that keeps one's courage up. And I imagine that for all the delights of your desert island where you're going to incarcerate me, there may be moments when one needs all the strength and courage that one could find. And I think that I shall find this particularly in the Emperor Concerto, and particularly

Speaker 332:01

Yeah.

Lord Charteris32:13

In that bit where the second movement goes to the third movement, which I think is absolutely thrilling bit of music.

Presenter33:18

Vladimir Ashkenazi playing part of Beethoven's Emperor Concerto with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Presenter33:26

So finally your three choices to make, Lord Charteress. First of all, which of those records would you need to have with you more than any of the others?

Lord Charteris33:32

Oh, the last, the Beethoven.

Presenter33:35

Keep the spirits up.

Presenter33:37

And um a book. You have the Bible and Shakespeare.

Lord Charteris33:39

Yes, I had terrible trouble over this because my choice laid either between some great book about people and things, or.

Lord Charteris33:48

A pottery book

Lord Charteris33:49

Because few things are so nice as to read about.

Lord Charteris33:52

uh recipes but I decided on the whole that I'll take one piece by Tolstoy.

Presenter33:57

And a luxury.

Lord Charteris33:59

Well, may I have some wood carving tools?

Lord Charteris34:03

Which might be useful in building that boat instead of

Presenter34:05

Oh no, don't tell me that.

Lord Charteris34:06

Well, not for that. Or will I simply want to create beautiful things for my own satisfaction out of driftwood?

Presenter34:14

Are you fibbing with a smile, Lord Lauder?

Lord Charteris34:16

Yeah.

Presenter34:18

You shall have them anyway.

Lord Charteris34:19

Thank you very much.

Presenter34:20

And thank you very much, Lord Charterers, for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Speaker 334:32

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.