Sir Charles MacLean

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Disc's archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen sixty three.

Presenter0:21

Desert Island Discs.

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Each week, a well-known person is asked the question, if you were to be cast away alone on a desert island, which eight gramophone records would you choose to have with you?

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As usual, the castaway is introduced by Roy Plumley.

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How do you do, ladies and gentlemen?

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Our castaway this week is a Scott.

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He's Chief of the Clan MacLean and he's Chief Scout of the Commonwealth. It's Sir Charles MacLean.

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Sir Charles, you do indeed live on an island? I do, yes, I live on the island of Maul.

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Not a deserted island. There's a there's a population of how many?

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Oh, well it's not three thousand now, but uh it was a good deal more at one time. How far is it from the mainland?

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The nearest part of the coastline of Maul to the mainland can't be more than 08 miles.

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There are some other questions I want to ask you about Null and about DeWitt Castle, but let's get down to the main item on the agenda first, these records. Is music an important thing in your life?

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Oh, I think so, yes. Uh very definitely. I'd be, I think, almost lost if I hadn't got

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some music somewhere every day, even uh it was only myself whistling. Have you any musical talent apart from whistling?

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I certainly wouldn't say talent. I was um more or less forced to learn the violin when I was a small boy.

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which I didn't enjoy.

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Uh I tried to learn the piano.

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I don't think I enjoyed the learning part, but I did enjoy the kind of sound I made.

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And um

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I still thoroughly enjoy strumming a piano, but I don't think other people enjoy it very much. What's the first record you've chosen? Well, it's my first record. I'd like to have Flanagan and Allen singing underneath the arches. Why'd you choose this?

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Well, I've always had a very soft spot for the crazy gang.

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Uh they were very good to me at certain times during the war.

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Uh particularly when

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Some of them came out to Normandy soon after our landing and

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I always feel they've had a place in in the family home.

Sir Charles MacLean2:26

Underneath the arches, We dream the dreams away.

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Underneath the arches, On the corbestones we lie.

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Every night you'll find I

Sir Charles MacLean2:51

Hi and

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Yeah.

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Lanigan and Alan. What's your second choice, Sir Charles?

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Uh my second choice

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is uh a Christmas hymn, Hark the Headled Angels Sing.

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I feel one of the uh

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Things I might well miss on a desert island would be the seasons of the year.

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And one of the seasons I'd like to remember

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Most would be Christmastime.

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both for the the the family uh side of Christmas and also to remember the the purpose of Christmas.

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Who is singing it? Uh the King's College Chapel Choir. And I would in particular like verses two and three. Uh verse three has the most beautiful descant.

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God is faithful.

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Waiting time we hold him come.

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The Spring of Legends.

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And in French what God can see.

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Within comment Jesus man will man to swear Jesus all reverence.

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The choir of King's College Chapel, Cambridge.

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Sir Charles, were you born on Mull at Dewart Castle?

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Uh no, no, I was born in London, and I'm told, actually, if the wind had been blowing in the opposite direction, I might have been a cockney.

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When did you succeed to the title of Chief of the Clan MacLean? I succeeded my grandfather in 1936. He was an old man who lived to be nearly 102.

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You succeeded to the baronessy at the same time? Yes. You're the twenty-seventh chief of the clan. That's correct. How many of the clans are there? Have you any idea?

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Well, that's a a very difficult question to answer. I d I don't keep her.

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card index of all McLean's at home. I believe um somewhere between thirty and forty thousand throughout the world.

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How long has Doord Castle been the ancestral home of the Chief of the Clan?

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The the castle was built in twelve fifty, but uh didn't become the actual home of the chief until around sixteen thirty.

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The Macleans used to feud with the Campbells, I believe. We did indeed, yes.

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I believe you wouldn't like the way they behaved at the time of the Forty Five Rebellion.

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Uh that that's quite quick.

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But the Macleans had had a rather bad time shortly after then. Yes, w we lost all our property as as a result of the 45, not on the field of battle. It was purely political that my ancestor of that day was imprisoned in the Tower of London for being a good Jacobite.

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and uh when he was released it was discovered that all the Maclean lands had been confiscated by the English Parliament.

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And give them to Clan Campbell. Oh dear. And do it later.

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Duart was inhabited by English Redcoats, a garrison of English troops, for around three years to help stop the rising of the clans again.

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and then became a ruin until my grandfather went to Duart in 1911 and rebuilt the old family home.

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Do you hold clan gatherings?

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I very seldom hold a a a large clan gathering at Duart. I like to feel that all the clan know that the front door is ever open for them to come and see me whenever they feel they would like to.

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But I do have clan gatherings in other parts of the country and also we have associations in

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Um Australia, New Zealand, America.

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All over. All over. Let's have record number three now.

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Well, I'd very much like Fingle's Cave, conducted by Sir Adrian Bolt. Why'd you choose it?

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Well, there are several reasons.

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Fingers Cave of course is on the Isle of Staffer, which is just off the coast of Mal, so

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It's uh near home.

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Sir Adrian Belt is a very old friend of the family and a man in music who I greatly admire.

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I think my daughter would like me to have this record too, because

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Uh some years ago, when she was a good deal younger, I asked Sad when when he was uh at my home whether he'd signed my daughter's autograph book.

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And uh he didn't write his name, he wrote the first six bars of Finkel's Cave.

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The opening of Fingalls Cave, the BBC Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Adrian Bolt.

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You are a professional soldier, I believe, Sir Charles.

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Uh yes.

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In fact, the war came just before I took my regular commission, but I took a regular commission right at the start of the war and stayed on.

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In the Scots Guards for three years after the war. And now you're a farmer? Now I'm a farmer.

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When did you first become interested in scouting?

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Well, my first first time uh I

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It was really interesting was when I joined the Wolf Clubs at the

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Age of eight. Mm-hmm.

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And then you worked your way up through the ranks? Um no, I'm afraid I didn't actually. Uh I was never a Boy Scout. I came back into Scouting um after the war. You became County Commissioner, then Chief Commissioner for Scotland. How long have you been Chief Scout?

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Uh I've been Chief Scout nearly four years. It'll be four years in September. And in those four years you've travelled a great deal in the Commonwealth to meet Scouts and attend jamborees.

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When I was appointed Chief Scout, I

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made a five-year plan to try and visit every country within the Commonwealth.

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during that first five years.

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I'm uh

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about half way through now, but in the in the last twenty months.

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Also, I've concentrated on the African countries, which of course are very important at the present time. Being Chief Scout is is really a full-time job, isn't it?

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Well, I feel that um it's a job which uh is is voluntary and any voluntary job uh I think one feels you you don't really give enough time to it.

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I give all the time I can to my job in in in scouting, but uh I just wish there was more time. How many scouts are there in the world?

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In the world today, we have in fact just received a new census on world figures. I think I'm right in saying it is over nine and a half million. Is it? Does that include cubs? That includes wolf cubs and of course the adults as well. How many are there in the Commonwealth? In the Commonwealth, we're just over two million. And is the movement still expanding?

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The movement is still expanding. The worldwide movement has grown.

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Half a million in just over two years.

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Let's have record number four. What do we have?

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Record number four.

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Very much like to have some pipe music with me on my island. I I'm not a piper myself, and so I'd have to have somebody else to play it for me.

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and I can't think of any uh more suitable pipers than those of my old regiment, the Scots Guards.

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And I'd like to hear them playing a Stratspan Real.

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A scout's play on the wheel, the fiddlers joy and Johnny MacDonald, by the mass pipers of the Scots Guards.

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So Charles, the Boy Scout movement is expanding, as you said. Is the training up to date? We know that Baden-Pohl uh adapted a lot of scout training from Boer War Scouting tactics and this is the space age. Has the training kept pace?

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Well, we're continuously reviewing our training program that we present to the boy and just recently there has been a revision in badges.

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We've introduced new badges such as badges for skiing.

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And uh potholing.

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I think that we are going well ahead. Of course, in scouting, it's

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Being a worldwide brotherhood, it is very international.

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And uh something which uh I think is of prime importance in scouting today is the fact that many boys get the opportunity of of travelling. And of course something quite revolutionary, the recent idea that that uh short trousers are now optional. Yes.

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Only for the older scout, though. Is there any shortage of senior scouts, scout masters, and so on? Yes, there is.

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One of our big problems now is to interest

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Young men and make them realize that voluntary youth leadership.

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is a man's job and a man's job well worth doing.

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A scout master doesn't necessarily have to have been a scout. Oh, no. We have uh first class training establishments. In fact, I'd say we've got the finest youth training centre in anywhere in the world.

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And uh

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I think it's very good to get new blood into the movement.

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Now the Sea Scout started quite early on. Now there are Air Scouts as well. There are Air Scouts, and.

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Very good they are, too, and they enjoy the benefit of gliding.

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You've mentioned

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The space age, perhaps before long there may be space scouts as well. Is the girl guide movement more or less under the same management? No, no, the girl guide association is separate from the Boy Scouts Association, but there is this one thing which is basically exactly the same on which, of course, scouting and guiding is built, and that is the promise to do one's duty to God and your country and your fellow men, and thereby help other people.

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Her great development in recent years is is the bobber job idea, which seems a an excellent idea for raising funds, and it's really brought scouting into practically everybody's home.

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Well, Bob a job is a very essential part of our fundraising.

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I believe that it is much better for a boy to go and ask for a job and do a job and if he's done it properly.

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to be given the bob and that is uh highly organized of course.

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donor of the bob and the job has to write what the boy's done.

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on a card, and how much he's been given.

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Uh we think that is better than um just asking for the money. But of course sometimes there's the risk that you'll give the job of a black pair of shoes uh ending up brown or something like that. As Chief Scout, have you any big ambition, something that you want to see during your years of office? That's a very very easy one to answer. Very swiftly. Double the number of scouts. Right.

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Record number five, sir child.

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Well, record number five, uh I'd like uh something to r remind me of my large family of two million scouts within the Commonwealth.

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A tune from the most recent gang show.

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uh written uh by my good friend and great scouter Ralph Reader.

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Sail your dream boat.

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And I think I might well be dreaming about a boat after a certain length of time on my desert island.

Sir Charles MacLean15:57

Yeah.

Sir Charles MacLean16:12

And there's no

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A song from The Gang Show and What's Number Six?

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Number six, I'd very much like to have with me some organ music, and I can think of nothing more lively and more vital.

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than um the Toccata um symphony number five in F minor.

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Um by uh Vido.

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The torcata from Vidor's Symphony No. 5 in F minor played by Marcel Dupuy at the organ of Saint-Selpiece, Paris.

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So Charles, many castaways on this programme have said they'd have no fears about problems of survival and being able to live off the land because of their training as Boy Scouts. Now if anyone can light a fire by rubbing two sticks together, it should be you.

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Would you be all right on this island?

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Uh I'd like to think so, yes. I think I'd probably make do, they say. Well, fishing shouldn't be a problem. No. Um I do a lot of uh deep sea fishing uh at home and I think I'd probably be able to

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Uh managed to

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Cook uh a fish or two. And campfire cookery up to standard.

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I well, not having been a Boy Scout, I m must admit that I never got my cooking badge, but um I think I'd uh be able to

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Uh cook all right, provided I found uh something to cook.

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Could you build some kind of craft eventually? You'd have no tools. Could you build a a raft or...

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I think I could build a raft, yes. Uh uh whether it would um float uh long enough to get me from my desert island, I don't know, but I'd like to think I'd get great enjoyment out of the building of the raft. If it was reasonably seaworthy, would you try to escape?

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Oh, what a difficult question. Um after a certain length of time, I think I'd like to get home, yes.

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Yeah.

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Let's have record number seven.

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Record number seven, Anywhere I Wonder, uh sung by Danny Kaye.

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This uh

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is also to remind me of my home and family because

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I think that's a good idea.

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Sing a bit, uh, in the car, perhaps, some of the old songs like I'll sing you.

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One oh Green Grove the Rush is O. And this uh song

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Anywhere I wonder, in particular.

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I enjoy because uh it's the only song that my daughter and I have ever managed to sing in harmony together.

Sir Charles MacLean19:31

Who the ever wanted

Sir Charles MacLean19:39

Anywhere I wonder.

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Anywhere I run

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Till I'm in the arms of my darling again.

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Benny Kaye.

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Now we come to your last one.

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Uh the last record I should like

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Uh to be the

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Uh national anthem, two verses of the national anthem.

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Uh as played and sung.

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in Westminster Abbey on the occasion of the coronation of the Queen.

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This record also includes the voice of Hard Marshall, and I feel I'd like to hear.

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Another spoken voice while I was on my desert island.

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And

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Perhaps the most important reason that I consider the national anthem to

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The music

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which will remind me of the past.

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the present and I trust most sincerely the future.

Speaker 220:43

Now the General Marshal takes up his place.

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And the fanfares announcing the Queen will sound.

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The national anthem from the recording of the coronation service.

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There are your eight records, Sir Charles. If you could only take one to the island, which would it be?

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The one I'd take would be

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The Takata.

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The organ is an instrument which I don't think I'll ever tire of.

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And uh

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Yes, that's the one I'll choose. Right. And one luxury to take with you to the island.

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I'd like to take a piano.

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And one book apart from the Bible and Shakespeare.

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One book.

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Am I allowed a a a set of books? Oh yes, because people choose encyclopedias and so forth. Yes, you may have a a set of volumes.

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Well, in that case, I'd like to choose um

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A set of uh bound volumes of the Illustrated London News from the first edition to the latest. That's a pretty long set of volumes, but all all right. Useful having a lot of. Well, there I think one has uh

Speaker 222:40

Hey, what?

Speaker 122:40

Yeah.

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A wonderful record, both written and pictorial.

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of um history up to date.

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Right.

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And thank you, Sir Charles Maclean, Chief Scout of the Commonwealth, for letting us hear your choice of Desert Island Discs. Well, thank you very much indeed for having got me shipwrecked. Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 123:13

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Sir Charles MacLean23:35

I guess

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In today's recorded

Sir Charles MacLean23:36

The programme was to child.

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was Maclay.

Sir Charles MacLean23:38

Yeah.

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The interviewer Roy Plumley and the producer Monica Chap.