Rt Hon John Biffen MP

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is a politician, a witty, articulate and dedicated parliamentarian. He never seriously considered any other career.

Presenter0:37

After fifteen years on the back benches he was finally called to the front by Margaret Thatcher, where, in a series of important posts, but most particularly as leader of the house, he established himself as one of the most popular men at Westminster.

Presenter0:50

This affection did not survive at Number ten. His concern about what he called the raucous leadership and his call for a balanced ticket before the last election earned him the label of a semi detached member of the Cabinet, and his eventual dismissal.

Presenter1:05

Total detachment, however, may have sharpened his criticism, but it has not tempered his fundamental loyalty. He is the Right Honourable JOHN.

Presenter1:15

Have you ever, mister Biffin, I wonder, wished you'd bitten your tongue on those occasions which incurred the displeasure of Number Ten, in the sense that you could still be there now, at the centre of power?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP1:24

No, no regrets. The Edith Piaff of politics.

Presenter1:27

Yeah.

Presenter1:28

But you were eight years on the inside. You must miss it terribly.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP1:31

Oh, of course I miss it tremendously. But uh

Rt Hon John Biffen MP1:34

I think life's an eternal learning curve. Um I had those eight years. Now I have a different role in politics.

Presenter1:41

But is it ground that you might one day like to recapture, to get back into the cabinet?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP1:46

No, I don't think so. Um I'm philosophic about that. It's absurd to foreclose any options for the future, but I certainly don't operate by an ambition to return to Cabinet office.

Presenter2:01

I wonder if you have, though, um a different ambition, because you said soon after you were sacked that when the time came to replace Mrs Thatcher you wanted to be a power broker, to have, you said, a significant say in who succeeds her. Do you find yourself marshalling your thoughts on these matters this day?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP2:17

I think those were very ample ambitions at the time they were spoken. I think that, of course, when the time arises for a change in the Conservative Party leadership, there will be a number of candidates. And I have no doubt that I will be one of the very many Conservative MPs trying to influence colleagues as to the outcome of that election. But I don't think I will put it any higher than that. And so I'm happy to have this opportunity to say that I spoke, I think, with exaggeration on the former occasion.

Presenter2:42

And so

Presenter2:47

In the wake of being sacked, perhaps you were most interested in the matter.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP2:49

Oh, I think that a lot of things are said in the wake of being sang.

Presenter2:52

Uh

Rt Hon John Biffen MP2:52

Yeah.

Presenter2:53

Well, we might discuss the likely contenders nevertheless later. But first of all, what about a spell on the desert island? You could uh think it all through and plan the campaign perhaps.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP3:02

Not sure I would want to spend a great deal of time thinking about the future of politics. I think I'd be rather more contented to look back upon my own life, non politically as well as politically.

Presenter3:14

Shall we begin then, um, looking back to the very well, the very early days, anyway, I think, with your first record?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP3:19

That's right. This is um Peter and the Wolf and I remember it because if I think of my grammar school that I attended at Bridgewater in Somerset.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP3:29

I think of uh one very wet lunch hour when one of the masters, Gareth Vaughan Jones, who subsequently taught me Latin and English,

Rt Hon John Biffen MP3:38

Tried to entertain us or divert us as best he could by introducing us to music. And this record still.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP3:48

stays with my memory, partly because I find it an attractive record, but above all, it would remind me of this particular master, Gareth Vaughan Jones, who was a great influence on me when I was in the sixth form, and particularly began to teach me to have an affection for the English language, and something which I found

Rt Hon John Biffen MP4:07

great value in my subsequent political career.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP4:11

I am going to tell you the story of Peter and the Wolf.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP4:15

In the tale you are about to hear, each character is represented by a different instrument of the orchestra.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP4:22

The bird by the fruit

Rt Hon John Biffen MP4:33

Peter by the strings in the orchestra.

Presenter4:42

Sir John Gilgood, introducing Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf with the Academy of London conducted by Richard Stamp. Played to you, John Biffin, on wet afternoons in Bridgewater. Tell me, tell me about that school. It was the local grammar, was it?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP4:50

Tell me.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP4:53

It's a local grammar school. It was a boys' school. It was modest in size, about three hundred pupils. And

Rt Hon John Biffen MP5:00

I think that it's a very good example where the quality of the school was not in the buildings, not in the facilities, but in the actual staff.

Presenter5:07

And you mentioned um Mr Vaughan Jones, the Latin master, who who gave you this passion for the English language. But there was also rather a remarkable history master, wasn't there?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP5:16

That's right, who is still alive, uh Jack Lawrence, and I was reasonably uh proficient at history and uh he encouraged my skills, such as they were, and eventually I was able to take an open scholarship to Cambridge in history.

Presenter5:31

So how did history lead to politics? How early did you decide you wanted to be a politician?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP5:35

I think I decided I wanted to be a politician remarkably early. Certainly when I was less than fifteen. I am embarrassed to make this confession. Certainly it was not as a result of any experience of life, but it was because I regarded politics as an extension of history.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP5:52

And I remember I was a teller in the local polling station in the 1945 general election. I thought this was the first foot on the rung.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP6:00

And from that moment onwards I never seriously doubted that I should wish to become a member of parliament if that were possible.

Presenter6:07

And did all of this passion for for history and for politics allow any space in your life for any other pastimes like sport or popular music or girls?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP6:15

I think on the whole cricket had greater esteem than any of those other factors that you mentioned.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP6:21

And I played cricket for the village.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP6:24

And uh at school I played cricket not that well. Initially I tried to avoid games so I could spend the time studying history. It was a terrible confession, awful, beastly spot that I must have been, but uh by the time I'd got to the sixth form and I ended up as school captain, then I was obliged to be more outgoing and rather more balanced in my range of activities and interests.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP6:44

Let's have your second record there. Well the second record does have a very clear political connotation. It's taken from the talk given by Stanley Baldwin and the BBC in a series called The English Character, which was given in nineteen thirty three. I obviously know

Rt Hon John Biffen MP7:00

Of Stanley Baldwin, only what I read, and I have a very generous impression of him as being a man of.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP7:08

deep sensitivity, and also I think he's got a beautiful voice.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP7:13

and I think I will get great satisfaction from listening to him from time to time on my desert island.

Speaker 27:19

I will try to show you how our present-day characteristics are inherited from those races to whom we in this country and many of you in distant parts of the empire owe a common origin.

Speaker 27:34

We ought never to forget in England

Speaker 27:37

That for a period as long as from the time of the Reformation to the present day,

Speaker 27:42

We were an integral part

Speaker 27:44

of the great Roman Empire.

Presenter7:46

The Right Honourable Stanley Baldwin talking about the English character in nineteen thirty three.

Presenter7:51

Let's go back to your pre grammar school days, if we may, mister Biffinter, when you were a very small boy on your father's farm. What sort of farm was it?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP7:59

It was a mixed farm almost every kind of husbandry was practised. We had a dairy my mother made cheese.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP8:07

We also had uh beef cattle, we had sheep, we had pigs. You'd got the normal range of crops of turnips and sweets and kale and the like.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP8:16

And it was uh a childhood of, I think, great contentment. Uh, farm is a rather exciting place to be brought up, and if you're an only child, which I was, it was like having a huge adventure playground right on the doorstep. That was my background, though I never had any desire to farm on my own account, and it was much to the credit of my father that he made no attempt to persuade me that I should go farming. Indeed, both my parents were inordinately proud of any achievements I secured at schooling, so I never had pressures to uh keep me on the farm.

Presenter8:49

Were they surprised, though, to discover? Because they weren't particularly bookish at all, were they?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP8:54

An umbrella

Presenter8:54

Were they surprised to discover they had a a scholarship boy on their hand?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP8:58

I don't know if if they were they were generous enough to conceal it.

Presenter9:04

But I have the impression that you were quite a a self sufficient little boy, quite a loner, perhaps.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP9:09

Yes, certainly. I mean, I I did lead a very self contained existence, and I think as a consequence I was a good deal shyer than most people, and certainly did not find it easy to uh

Rt Hon John Biffen MP9:21

make normal social intercourse that comes with being a teenager.

Presenter9:25

And in those teenage years did you stray much out of the country at all, or were you a homeboy?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP9:30

No, I it being wartime, there was no prospect of movement, and I never went more than thirty five mile radius from the farm.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP9:41

Until I was probably seventeen.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP9:45

And then I went to London and I went to Cambridge to sit the scholarship examinations.

Presenter9:51

So you you passed that scholarship, in fact, to Jesus College, but first of all you had to do your national service. That must have been a a rude shock there.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP9:58

national service was the most seismic shock that you could imagine. I found it uh really quite terrifying. And after a few weeks, of course, everything began to settle down. But uh the initial pain and trauma

Speaker 210:11

Uh

Rt Hon John Biffen MP10:11

Of being taken away from the security and the affection of the family farm.

Speaker 210:11

Good.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP10:16

and thrust into the barrack room, is something which even now I can sense quite acutely.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP10:23

But my National Service gave me the chance to make friendships, which in a way had not been possible by virtue of my previous background.

Presenter10:29

Yeah.

Presenter10:31

And it taught you how to make buckets of tea, I think.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP10:33

Yes, that is not perhaps one of my most glorious episodes, but uh you're quite right that one part of my training I had to work in the kitchens.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP10:42

I unwisely filled a bucket uh with tea without checking that it had uh been used for before and it had been used for peeling onions and uh the hadn't been washed out and the result was that the tea was somewhat tainted, and perhaps that's an understatement, and one nearly had a mutiny and I thought I was going to be more or less thrown for rough and ready justice.

Speaker 310:57

I don't mind.

Presenter11:03

Yeah.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP11:03

Yeah.

Presenter11:03

We better have your third record, I think, yeah.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP11:05

But I think my third record will recall something of those days because

Rt Hon John Biffen MP11:10

Once a week, when we were housed in Kitchener barracks, which have now disappeared in Chatham, we would march up to the School of Military Engineering in Gillingham behind the band of the Corps of Royal Engineers, and I would very much like to hear the regimental march of the Royal Engineers.

Presenter12:14

The regimental march of the Royal Engineers, played by the band of the Corps of the Royal Engineers memories of nineteen forty nine and Chatham and Gillingham, and then out of the army and up to Cambridge at last. Did you love it?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP12:25

Oh, I loved every minute of it. It was fantastic. It was everything that I thought it might be.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP12:32

And uh I enjoyed it partly because um I was able to follow my interest in history and I did reasonably well in the those studies. Also I could pursue my interest in politics and I became chairman of the University Conservative Association and took part in the debates in the Cambridge Union and made a number of friends at uh Cambridge who were contemporaries and also involved in politics, of course who know are prominent in

Rt Hon John Biffen MP13:01

The government and in politics generally actually Geoffrey Howe and Douglas Hurd are the two that I have particularly in mind. Greville Janner was a contemporary, now sitting on the Labour benches. Perhaps the person I think of with most affection and respect is Tam Dielle.

Presenter13:19

You um obviously became much more gregarious, um as we've heard at Cambridge, but what about girls? Now, I must have

Rt Hon John Biffen MP13:26

That's the second time you lost it.

Presenter13:27

Yeah.

Presenter13:30

Cuttings are littered with references to to your protesting shyness and yet always managing to have a a a good looking woman on your arm.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP13:37

I think that was true of a rather later stage in my life than Cambridge, but I must confess if there is one disaster which matches my inability to make tea untainted by onions, it was my inability to land a partner for a May Ball. I mean that that's one of the uh less happy recollections I have um.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP13:59

of my time at Cambridge.

Presenter14:00

You didn't in fact get married until you were forty-eight, I think, or the day before your forty-ninth birthday, wasn't it?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP14:06

That's a unkind thrust. I mean, technically, I was forty-eight when I was married. That's right.

Presenter14:09

You were also a little bit more.

Presenter14:11

Your friends had written you off as a lifelong bachelor, I think. Did you surprise yourself as well as them when you finally married?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP14:17

Yes.

Presenter14:18

Well, now you married your secretary, Sarah, who had two small children already by a previous marriage, so you you really inherited a ready made family. Your life must have changed completely on that.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP14:28

I think that's um

Rt Hon John Biffen MP14:30

Commendable understatement if you're a bachelor.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP14:33

you don't necessarily become selfish, but you certainly are self regarding. You think, well, it's my convenience and my comfort which has to be assessed and of course that's quite different once you get married and there are a lot of other factors.

Presenter14:44

But but your comforts obviously also vastly improved. Your your wife says that you lived off tinned carrots until you met her.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP14:51

You're not expecting me to contradict my wife.

Presenter14:53

Yeah.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP14:54

And therefore I have to

Presenter14:55

I also

Rt Hon John Biffen MP14:56

Yeah.

Presenter14:57

I also discovered that you had no washing machine, no television, you didn't know how to light a fire. There you were, you've been sitting on the back benches for for fifteen years. It's

Presenter15:06

A very sort of solitary and rather unworldly image that you cut for 1978.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP15:09

I think you're describing, if I can draw upon my historical experiences, Rousseau's Noble Savage. I'm rather rather flattered by this recollection that I wasn't dependent upon so many of these ephemeral knickknacks.

Presenter15:18

Yeah.

Presenter15:24

Let's have your fourth record.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP15:25

Well, the fourth record evokes Cambridge and memories of Cambridge, and although

Rt Hon John Biffen MP15:31

It is the Cambridge of the Lecture Room and of my studies in history and the Cambridge of University Politics to which I have already referred. Nonetheless, the record evokes the vast amount of time I used to spend in the cinema.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP15:45

And the uh

Rt Hon John Biffen MP15:47

The film of which I have very, very powerful memories indeed was Limelight.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP15:52

which Charlie Chaplin played, and I've chosen the theme from Limelight.

Presenter16:19

The theme from Limelight played by Frank Chaxfield and his orchestra, which is obviously brings back that whole time for you, Mr Biffin.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP16:25

Tremendously.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP16:26

I so love my time at Cambridge and also

Rt Hon John Biffen MP16:28

I couldn't really believe that the rest of my life would bring a contentment or a satisfaction or an achievement which was in any sense related to what I was experiencing at university.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP16:39

When I left Cambridge and I went off into engineering and to the Midlands to Birmingham,

Rt Hon John Biffen MP16:44

Though it taught me a lot and I had many compensations, in no way could it compare with life at Cambridge, and for years and years I would never go back.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP16:55

Because I felt I had to succeed and to demonstrate that in the post-Cambridge world I could do as well and enjoy life as much as I had at Cambridge and eventually I'm happy to say, and I hope this doesn't sound conceited, I think I did notch up the necessary success, particularly in the world of politics, and now I go back to Cambridge quite often because I speak there quite a lot.

Presenter17:17

But they were good years.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP17:18

Oh, they were wonderful.

Presenter17:19

You say you went off to the Midlands. You've made the comment before now that you learnt your politics at the Wolverhampton Polytechnic of Contemporary Politics. I think this is a reference to Enoch Powell. Was it then that you met him?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP17:19

Yeah.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP17:29

Well, it's certainly a reference to Enoch Powell. And I had first heard him, and I'd been an undergraduate at Cambridge, and he made a powerful speech to the University Conservatives and an even more powerful contribution in a debate.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP17:44

And as I listened to this man with a rather forbidding style of speaking, I thought this is what the Tory party needs. But I do also have other recollections of the speech that he made in the House of Commons on the occasion of the Hola massacre, when from the Conservative benches there seemed to be one voice that did fill the deep sense of moral outrage at how Africans were being treated by the British authorities in Kenya.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP18:14

I was very deeply moved.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP18:17

On that occasion, and indeed on many subsequent so I think part of my political experience has been my association with the Not Power.

Presenter18:23

Yeah.

Presenter18:24

Let's have some more music now.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP18:26

Well, the next record that I've chosen is Mozart's Clarinet Quintet in A and as my whole range of records is designed to anchor in my mind my past life, this one, strangely enough,

Rt Hon John Biffen MP18:40

evokes Birmingham, because it was in Birmingham, where I shared a flat with other junior executives in the business world, that I first actually encountered um classical music. And the Mozart clarinet quintet is the record I think of particularly of Birmingham. When I would listen to it,

Rt Hon John Biffen MP18:59

I would think of days on the Hagley Road, I would think of travelling on the inner circle bus to work in Aston.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP19:05

It would all come back.

Presenter20:06

Part of Mozart's clarinet quintet in A played by the Nash Ensemble.

Presenter20:11

Let's go back and pick up the uh chronology of your life, mister Biffin. Because you were at um Tube Investments in the Midlands, I think, management training, and then you stood for Coventry East and lost to Dick Crossman. Then you were selected for Oswestry.

Speaker 220:20

No.

Presenter20:24

Shropshire North, I think it's now called. And then there was a by-election, nineteen sixty-one, and you um beat Brian Walden.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP20:24

Shop.

Presenter20:31

To the post, and you've represented them ever since, haven't you?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP20:33

That child.

Presenter20:35

You remained, as I've said, on the uh back benches for fifteen years, under Macmillan, Douglas Hume, and Heath. Why do you think that was? Because without being, I think, unjustifiably flattering, you were patently front bench material.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP20:48

I was perfectly accepted that uh

Rt Hon John Biffen MP20:51

That's what life intended. So I went for

Presenter20:53

Were you also perhaps perhaps slightly nervous of PA? Were you afraid of being afraid of the matter?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP20:58

Oh certainly. No question about that. I I was immensely diffident about the problems of um physical stress and strain, there's all the mental anguish, the problems of decision taking.

Presenter21:09

But in that sense, then, misses Thatcher did you a great service in in calling you forward and thereby telling you you could do it.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP21:12

Okay.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP21:15

That's right, and uh I have a deep and a continuing affection and regard on that account.

Presenter21:21

She brought you forward as energy and industry spokesman in opposition, first of all, didn't she? And and then in government you were you were chief secretary to the treasury, you were trade secretary, you were Lord President of the Council and then Leader of the House for five years.

Presenter21:34

One of the Prime Minister's most trusted people, a member of her kitchen cabinet, too. So what went wrong? How could it have happened that you ended up being sacked?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP21:43

Well, I don't know if anything went wrong. I mean, the point is, in the general discussion in government or in cabinet, I always felt that uh it was much more important that I should say what I felt about a situation than what I thought would be well received.

Presenter21:59

But all of those dissents on your part were about policy, and finally you you went further and as it turned out too far because you criticised the style of the leadership, didn't you? You advised against its getting too raucous and you talked about this need for a balanced ticket. You seemed, after you'd said that at the time, to be somewhat surprised that the Prime Minister was furious at what you'd said.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP22:22

Well

Rt Hon John Biffen MP22:23

I don't know what your evidence uh is for making that uh proposition.

Presenter22:29

I think you said so in interviews after the event. You said that you had merely said what you thought was correct and you really didn't intend, and were rather surprised to discover yourself ostracised at the next meeting of the Kitchen Cabinet.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP22:36

Yeah.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP22:41

My recollection is that, for example, on the balance ticket, it was a a warning against trying to emphasize too much merely the personal conflict between Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP22:53

When I talked about the term balanced ticket, I had in mind those considerations. I don't feel that those considerations

Rt Hon John Biffen MP23:02

were in any way detrimental to the good fortune of the government.

Presenter23:06

But it it was seen, was it not, as a challenge to the authority of the Prime Minister?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP23:10

I think you may say that I was extraordinarily innocent and naïve in not seeing it as so many other people saw it. It did seem to me the Prime Minister was in a position of such authority.

Presenter23:18

Yeah.

Speaker 223:18

Uh

Rt Hon John Biffen MP23:22

uh that um that formulation of words couldn't conceivably be regarded as a challenge.

Presenter23:29

and your dismissal, therefore, was inevitable.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP23:32

Clearly there was uh not a meeting of minds or a meeting of temperament. I think that that's that's quite true. But usually I'm sure it's it's great fun to have this sort of inquest. It's all life. It's behind me. It's past. It's over.

Presenter23:45

Has it left a scar?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP23:45

I think it's

Rt Hon John Biffen MP23:48

Oh, of course it leaves a scar but scars hill.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP23:54

Let's have your next record. Well, the um next record.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP23:59

is the one which will bring to mind

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:03

The Osfestry constituency now reconstituted as North Shropshire.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:09

and it will call to mind in particular the Berwan Hills which roll away from where I live in the Tennet Valley.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:18

And I think we'll

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:20

Also emphasise for me

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:23

How important

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:25

North West Shropshire's Bean.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:27

in my life, how going there at the week ends is more than just getting away from Westminster. It is looking out across those hills, and remembering the psalmist, I will go on to the hills from whence cometh my strength.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:42

And I think I have learned over the years that there is

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:46

much merit and meaning in those words.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:49

So I will sit on the desert island.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP24:52

and listen to Guide me, O Thou great Jehovah

Presenter25:39

Guide me, O thou great Jehovah sung by the Triorkie Male Choir.

Presenter25:44

May I Mr. Biffin um

Presenter25:46

I hesitantly quote yourself to you again once more. You you said in an interview about two and a half years ago

Presenter25:52

I have a powerful instinct that it is better for successful leaders to call it a day five minutes too soon than to linger beyond their welcome.

Presenter26:01

Do you think that's a a maxim which could well be heeded by your leader today?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP26:05

It's a good generalized maxim which is timeless in its application, and I am not so naive as to respond to your specific question about this instance.

Presenter26:16

I was trying to make it less than specific so that we could speak in general. And I w I mean, I wondered if we might discuss some names, really. And two two names, of course, you've mentioned as old contemporaries of yours, Sir Geoffrey Howe and Douglas Hurd.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP26:31

Yes, I thought you were going to possibly say do you think that Sir Winston Churchill should have resigned a little earlier? Or do you think that Harold Macmillan might, with the benefit, have left a little earlier? Or do you think that Sir Anthony Eden might have taken account of things and left a little earlier? I think it's not that difficult, looking back in public life, to see that all the pressures are

Rt Hon John Biffen MP27:00

Externally, as well as one's own internal judgments and vanity, to keep going.

Presenter27:07

But it would be very difficult for a Prime Minister, wouldn't it, to live by your maxim. How does that successful leader, as as you call the person in the maxim, know when it's five minutes too soon?

Presenter27:19

How can she judge?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP27:20

It requires a permanent streak of humility, which is not necessarily a characteristic which carries you to the top in politics. That's absolutely true.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP27:28

But I think that Harold Wilson was absolutely right.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP27:32

To resign when he did

Rt Hon John Biffen MP27:35

And uh the action that he undertook I would commend as a general practice.

Presenter27:41

Who do you think you listen to, then, if you are that successful leader? Whose voice should you hear above all others?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP27:47

Very often they will look for people in public life but not necessarily politicians. If you take Neville Chamberlain, go back for a generation or so and get outside of

Rt Hon John Biffen MP27:59

any embarrassments of the present.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP28:01

I think it was quite understandable that he had Horace Wilson, whom he took from the Ministry of Labour, as it then was, to be one of his close and valued advisers. I think that's perfectly natural. Th those are the sort of people that uh Prime Ministers will turn to to become part of the inner cabinet and eventually, although I think the family probably is as decisive as anybody, who will say, Well, look, I think uh

Rt Hon John Biffen MP28:27

You might call it a day now.

Presenter28:31

Let's have your seventh record.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP28:33

The Senate record takes account of the fact that in the many years that I have now been in the House of Commons.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP28:39

and therefore I've had the chance to.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP28:41

See in action.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP28:43

our major political figures. There is one political figure

Rt Hon John Biffen MP28:46

I was never able to see an action in the House of Commons, and indeed someone I never met or heard.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP28:54

Even in the many years I was interested in politics before becoming a member of parliament, and that was Anaran Bhavan.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP29:00

No. I have a fascination.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP29:03

about an Aram Bavan, about the um beauty of his speech.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP29:08

And the

Rt Hon John Biffen MP29:09

artistry that he brought to the world of politics.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP29:12

Well, uh, as I've already listened to.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP29:15

Stanley Baldwin, and I want to have as much music. I've decided I would have.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP29:20

The Beethoven's Symphony No. Six, The Pastoral, which is as I am.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP29:25

Told was an Arimba band's favorite music.

Presenter30:26

Part of Beethoven's Symphony No. Six, the Pastoral, played by the Koncertgebau Orchestra conducted by Bernard Heitink.

Presenter30:33

I see from my notes, mister Biffin, that you learnt to swim last year, so escape from the island would be on the cards, eh?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP30:41

I think that merely uh demonstrates my sort of cliché remark about life being an eternal learning curve. Uh it is true that um

Presenter30:42

Demonstrate

Rt Hon John Biffen MP30:50

I have learned to swim, but I don't think it's true that I have learned not to drown, and I think that the unhappy coexistence of those two conditions will make me stay severely on the island.

Presenter31:02

So life is good really, by the sound of it. I mean, you you you're back on the back benches so you've got more time, you've got time to spend at home with your wife and your children and your constituents and um you write. Uh it's all a a really good balance, it seems.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP31:16

Yes, it is balance, you may recollect, which got me into such difficulty. But I'm pleased that you view my life and think that it's a balanced ticket of political and non-political activities, of work and social life, and I think that's true. I enjoy it.

Presenter31:36

Is there anything at all missing in it, or um would you dare to say that?

Presenter31:41

John Biffin is a happy man.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP31:44

Or I don't think I would ever challenge the fates by saying that John Biffon was a happy man. I would think that was um deplorable hubris. I think that one must have a certain philosophic uh acceptance of whatever has been decreed, whatever the fates provide.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP32:00

Provided you are satisfied that you're conducting what I think is the honourable occupation of politics by making judgments, trying to secure conditions and doing it in good faith.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP32:11

Then all I can say is that it's given me thirty years of contentment as a career, and I'm very happy uh that that uh should stand.

Presenter32:21

Your last record.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP32:23

My last record.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP32:25

Returns to Cambridge. It was um Salad Days, a musical then a great uh success in London at the time that I was an undergraduate.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP32:36

That's just the last one, as I'm there reclining on that island. If there's one memory

Rt Hon John Biffen MP32:41

which would give me happiness. I think it would be the memory of Cambridge embodying education, because education has meant so much for me in having the variety and character of my career that I feel a continuing respect and regard for it. So off we sign with Look at Me from Salad Days.

Speaker 233:06

Look at me, oh, look at me, oh, look at me, I'm dancing. I'm going on one foot instead of on two. It isn't the thing I'm accustomed to. Oh, look at me, oh, look at me, oh, look at me, I'm dancing. Now who would have thought I behave in this way? It isn't the thing that I do every day. Besides for a change, and I'm happy to say, I'm dancing, dancing, dance.

Presenter33:28

John Warner and Eleanor Drew singing Look at Me from Julian Slade's Salad Days. Is that your favorite of the eight records, Mr. Biffin?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP33:36

No, I don't think it is. If I had to have a favorite, I would choose um Stanley Bolden.

Presenter33:42

No music, the speech only.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP33:45

That's right.

Presenter33:46

That wouldn't matter to you to be without the music.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP33:49

Well, you didn't say that choosing one excluded um the other seven.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP33:54

And now you're talking like a politician. You've subtly altered the basis of the argument. You do very well.

Presenter34:03

What about a book? Now, you you've got um the Bible and you've got the complete Shakespeare. What um what book would you take?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP34:09

Well, I would take the nineteen forty six wisdom. Um I'm

Rt Hon John Biffen MP34:15

As a child I was very fond of cricket and great um

Rt Hon John Biffen MP34:20

recollections of going with my father and mother to Taunton Cricket Down to watch Somerset.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP34:26

And I would sit for hours.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP34:28

going through the cricket matches and remembering the ones that I had watched and reading the delightful results that were attained by Somerset in that year, and I would think of Harold Gimlet and Frank Lee and Arthur Wellard and all those other childhood heroes.

Presenter34:45

And what about your luxury?

Rt Hon John Biffen MP34:47

I like a rain gauge.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP34:49

Because I could use it to plot the movements, because I'm sure this desert island by the time we've um

Rt Hon John Biffen MP34:55

fix this up. Our whole weather pattern will have changed so dramatically that a rain gauge, if not an umbrella, will be indispensable.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP35:04

and uh I would be able to um have great time, like an old eccentric uh Englishman in his country garden checking.

Rt Hon John Biffen MP35:13

The movement in the rain.

Presenter35:15

John Biffin, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs.

Speaker 335:26

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.