Sir Ian Trethowan

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:28

My Castaway this week is a journalist and a broadcaster. His achievements are distinguished. He it was who made the unique journey from newscaster to director general of the BBC.

Presenter0:40

He left school at sixteen and worked as a copy boy on the Daily Sketch. From those small traditional beginnings he moved ever upwards via the Yorkshire Post, newsreading at ITN, and eventually held in succession the three top jobs at the BBC.

Presenter0:54

Since leaving the office of DG eight years ago, he has indulged his passion for racing as chairman of the Horse Race Betting Levy Board, and maintained his connections with broadcasting as chairman of Thames Television. He is Sir Ian

Presenter1:09

Serena, I'm right, aren't I, that you're the only television presenter performer to to rise to the very top behind the scenes.

Sir Ian Trethowan1:15

Yes, I'm I think that is the case.

Presenter1:17

You in fact uh pipped Robin Day to the post, I think, didn't you?

Sir Ian Trethowan1:21

Yes, I did at that time. I think I had inevitably the edge because I'd already been managing director of radio and then managing director of television. So I'd had several years' experience of top management.

Presenter1:35

So you weren't trying to make the leap in one, which perhaps Robin was doing.

Sir Ian Trethowan1:38

which Robin was doing, and which I think would have been very difficult. I mean, I have to say that when I first came into this building of Broadcasting House as managing director of radio, I was very raw. I mean, I remember Charles Curran, who is the new Director General, ringing me up and saying,

Sir Ian Trethowan1:53

Would you be interested in being the managing director of BBC Radio? And I said, but Charles, I know nothing about management and nothing about radio. And he said, well, would you be interested? So I said, well, I guess I'll have a go. And I learnt an awful lot. I made a lot of mistakes when I first came in. And I think to have made them straight to be Director General would not have been a good thing.

Presenter2:13

But I think it's also true to say that about a decade earlier Robin had pipped you to a job that you really wanted, hadn't he?

Sir Ian Trethowan2:19

Yes, he had. When Richard Dimbleby died very sadly, and he was this tremendous figure right across the BBC's current affairs, and he left tremendous gaps, and I was told, or I thought I'd been told, that I would present Panorama. And then when it came to it, Robin presented Panorama. And I was a bit left about this. But Hugh Weldon, who then ran BBC Television, took me out to lunch. And he was very, very straightforward with Hugh. And we went all through this. He said, dear boy, if I had been editor of Panorama, I would have chosen Robin Day. Robin Day is a star. You are not.

Sir Ian Trethowan2:58

And all that very nice and said, but of course you can talk about politics and it's very interesting. I'd love to hear you talk about politics. But and it was true.

Presenter3:07

So it was star quality that you were said to lack. What do you think then you had that Robin didn't have, which ensured you the top management job, which he couldn't get?

Sir Ian Trethowan3:08

That you were said

Sir Ian Trethowan3:14

I think I'd had experience. I'd had a proven track record. When I became managing director of radio, straight from being a presenter and a reporter, I learned what I think is crucial in management, which is how to delegate and how to create priorities.

Sir Ian Trethowan3:30

And that means you've got to pick good people in whom you can rely. And I was very lucky when I was Director General. I had very good people. I could totally rely on them. And all I ever said to them was that you carry on. This is your budget. This is the policy we've agreed. But let me know if you're going to do anything very controversial. Because if we're going to have a flaming row with the government, I will decide, not you.

Presenter3:52

We shall uh talk about all of that later on. But first of all, let let's find out about the music you want to take to your desert island. What's the first record of two?

Sir Ian Trethowan3:59

The first record is uh from my favorite opera, The Marriage of Figura.

Sir Ian Trethowan4:03

And it's immediately after the very exciting overture. The curtain goes up and you see on the stage Figaro and Susanna. It's their wedding day, or at least I hope it's going to be their wedding day. And Figaro is measuring the room for the marriage bed. And Susannah is trying on her wedding hat. And there's a little duet which is light and exuberant. And it starts and carries right through the whole opera.

Speaker 44:32

See what

Speaker 44:35

Yeah.

Speaker 44:39

Victim.

Sir Ian Trethowan4:39

Bring it.

Speaker 44:42

Right p.

Sir Ian Trethowan4:43

Pride pa.

Speaker 44:46

Frank affair.

Sir Ian Trethowan4:46

Bring passage.

Speaker 44:49

What untouched for the day?

Speaker 45:04

God of fear with the form you got of fear that we must be alone.

Presenter5:26

Claudio Desdere and Gianna Rolandi, singing the opening duet of Mozart's Marriage of Figaro with the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Bernard Heitink.

Sir Ian Trethowan5:35

And that of course was a Gleinborn production and it means it's rather special to our family because apart from my being a trustee of Gleinborn, last summer for the first time all five of us, that's my wife, myself and our three daughters, went to Gleinborn for a production of Figaro. And it was a sort of magical evening which somehow only Mozart and Gleinborn together can provide.

Presenter5:57

Wonderful. All of which is a a long, long way from your humble beginnings, which I mentioned as a a copyboy on the Daily Sketch. That was pre-war, I think.

Sir Ian Trethowan6:04

Yes, it was. I left school at, as you say, at 16, at the end of 1938, and I did a crash course in shorthand and typing, which was very necessary if one wanted to be a journalist in those days. And then I got a job as a copyboy on the old daily sketch.

Presenter6:22

How much did you get a week, Lamanda?

Sir Ian Trethowan6:24

I got twenty-seven and six a week. I have to confess I'm I think I was an adequate copy boy. There was one unfortunate occasion when I was ten minutes late.

Sir Ian Trethowan6:32

uh ripping off the flash that uh Queen Mary

Sir Ian Trethowan6:36

had been in a car accident. Not a very serious car accident, but nonetheless, it was quite an important story. The reason was unfortunately I'd be looking at the racing results on one of the other printing machines.

Presenter6:44

Grabber

Presenter6:45

This is your other great passion, as we said. What what had been your original inspiration and why had you wanted to become a journalist?

Sir Ian Trethowan6:52

I think it was partly because I had no particular aptitude for science or languages. I was fascinated by history and political history. My father was a part-time journalist. He'd been a regular soldier and he'd then gone into the city and he hadn't enjoyed it in commerce, but he'd then taken up freelance journalism reporting rugger and other sports. And so that I was familiar with the atmosphere and it just was the one thing I wanted to do, was to be a journalist.

Presenter7:25

Shall we pause for your second record?

Sir Ian Trethowan7:27

My second record is really takes us past the Daily Sketch to the war. I had two jobs, one in Norwich and then the Yorkshire Post, as a Cub reporter in the early days of the war. Then I went into the Navy. And of course, during the war, anybody who was in the forces, there was a sort of theme to you. Wherever you were, in any canteen, anywhere in the world, you heard Glenn Miller in the mood.

Speaker 47:50

Yeah.

Presenter8:35

Glenn Miller and In the Mood, reminding Sirian Truthan of his days in the Navy during the war. Um when your dearest wish, I think, was to become a pilot, but that was not to be.

Sir Ian Trethowan8:44

Well, no, I had many sadnesses when I was young. The first was when I discovered that I wasn't going to play cricket for England. In fact, I was going to be hard pushed to get it to my house second 11. The second was that I wanted to be a pilot. I have to say that the Navy had tried to persuade me not to be, to become an observer, a navigator, but I said I wanted to be a pilot. And somehow I got through. I was training in the United States. Somehow I got through until a few days before I was due to sort of pass out. And then they started as night flying. And unfortunately, I didn't land on the airfield. I landed on the commanding officer's new car. And that was, he made very clear when he saw me next morning. It was the end of my days as a pilot. Was it stationary at the time? The car happily was stationary, yes. The plane wasn't. Was he in it? He wasn't in it. He made a nasty dent in it, I understand. But anyway, I think it was probably all for the best that if I got on as a pilot, I'd probably kill myself and other people as well. But it was great sadness.

Presenter9:28

Did you

Presenter9:40

So you were given short shrift and sent home.

Sir Ian Trethowan9:41

So I was sent home.

Presenter9:42

And um eventually after the war you went back into newspapers.

Sir Ian Trethowan9:45

That's right, I went back to the Yorkshire Post in London and I had three or four months just after I came out of the Navy mainly reporting sport.

Presenter9:52

Bit.

Sir Ian Trethowan9:54

which I enjoyed very much. And I had about a year as an industrial correspondent, and that was during the winter of 46-47 when there was a fuel crisis. And then I went into the house as the gallery correspondent, then as a lobby correspondent a year later.

Presenter10:07

Yes.

Presenter10:10

I want to talk to you about that, but let me just um ask you there, because uh talking about your becoming a copyboy at sixteen and then the war and then coming back and going all of this means that you didn't go to university.

Sir Ian Trethowan10:19

No, I didn't.

Presenter10:20

Now was that a subject of great regret to you, or do you think you should have gone?

Sir Ian Trethowan10:22

Do you think you're sharing?

Sir Ian Trethowan10:24

It is still a regret because I've noticed among my

Sir Ian Trethowan10:29

friends who've been to university, that they have a a nucleus of friends whom they made at university.

Sir Ian Trethowan10:35

This is something that I didn't have from school and then five years in the war. And I mean, I have, I'm happy to say, very many friends, but there is that core.

Presenter10:46

It's it's not just, though, a matter of a nucleus of friends, is it? There is a consciousness, not to say a snobbery, in many circles, and perhaps particularly the circles you've moved in, in political circles and in BBC circles not about simply whether you've been to university, but which university, or indeed which college.

Sir Ian Trethowan11:02

Yes, I think there is. I think that is true. Certainly before the war, it wasn't the requirement. I think it is now. I mean, I have urged all my three daughters to go to university, and they all have. And I think it is right in their sense. They've greatly enjoyed it. They made good friends, and I think it has helped them to develop their minds.

Presenter11:20

But you managed to survive any B B C Oxbridge snobbery, didn't you?

Sir Ian Trethowan11:24

Yes, I did.

Presenter11:24

It was not a handicap, as you believed.

Sir Ian Trethowan11:26

Ah.

Presenter11:27

Shall we have the next record?

Sir Ian Trethowan11:29

Yes, indeed. Quite soon after the war, I went for the first time to Europe. It was very curious that through being in the Navy I've been to America, I've been to the Far East, but I'd never been to Europe. And ever since, I have had a very strong feeling of affection and affinity, I suppose, with Europe. I can't speak any of their languages, but I've always loved Europe, and so have my family. And I thought we must have perhaps Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Not the obvious choice, perhaps the great final movement which would take up the whole of this programme. But I always find particularly exciting is the opening of the second movement of the Ninth Symphony.

Presenter13:04

The opening of the second movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, played by the Vienna Philharmonic, conducted by Hans Schmidt Isserstedt.

Presenter13:12

So you made your saying, Sorry, and the transition from sports reporter to politics. I think you were lobby correspondent for both the Yorkshire Post and subsequently the News Chronicle.

Sir Ian Trethowan13:22

Sidewalk.

Presenter13:23

Can you sum up what attracted you about politics? Was it the the intrigue, the gossip?

Sir Ian Trethowan13:28

I think it was the interplay between the government and the house.

Sir Ian Trethowan13:33

It's the interplay between the government and Whitehall, which of course is also part of the beat. I mean when it was very important to know civil servants. When I first became a lobby correspondent, Whitehall was very closed. It's gradually opened up. I mean, some people in government think too much, but it has, I think, very healthily. You are now, you have much more access to the civil servants. Civil servants feel much freer to talk to you than they did certainly 40 years ago.

Presenter14:00

So you were this was the mid-fifties and you were in your mid-thirties I think then and you felt that you had arrived at where you wanted to be obviously you were very happy.

Sir Ian Trethowan14:03

Yeah.

Sir Ian Trethowan14:07

Absolutely. Yes, I am.

Presenter14:09

You stayed there for some years, but then suddenly you you switched from newspapers to television, uh and this was when you went to ITN and became a newscaster in in the wake I think of Ludovic Kennedy.

Sir Ian Trethowan14:19

That's right, yeah.

Presenter14:20

And why did you do that? Had you always wanted to perform?

Sir Ian Trethowan14:22

Well not in the smallest degree, no. I I was uh with the News Chronicle but at that time a very great friend of mine, Geoffrey Cox,

Presenter14:22

Uh

Sir Ian Trethowan14:30

who had been with the News Chronicle, had just become editor of ITN.

Sir Ian Trethowan14:34

And he said, Why don't you come to television? And I thought I was, I think, thirty-five at the time. If I'm ever going to make

Sir Ian Trethowan14:40

The move into this new medium. This is the time to do it, probably now or never. But you took to it.

Presenter14:45

Uh

Sir Ian Trethowan14:46

It seemed to work all right, yes.

Presenter14:48

But you also had a had some editorial control, didn't you? Because you were deputy editor and political editor.

Sir Ian Trethowan14:52

I became deputy editor and political editor, yes. Yes, I did. Uh when I finished, I was both political editor and imperial in front of the in front of the screen.

Presenter15:00

I presume you wouldn't have liked to take on that job simply as a newscaster without any editorial control.

Sir Ian Trethowan15:06

No, I wasn't interested in what Mike Corny was reading. And it was always made very clear at the time that that the ITN

Sir Ian Trethowan15:15

was based on the American newscaster principle which Aiden Crawley introduced when he started ITN in 55.

Presenter15:21

And indeed, Sir Alastair Burnett still has that kind of control today at ITN.

Sir Ian Trethowan15:25

Uh

Presenter15:26

But I mean even in your time, I think there's obviously there's a a great part is taken in the editorial process by presenters and reporters, but not in title. You and Sir Alastair are allowed to have titles which display your editorial control.

Sir Ian Trethowan15:29

Yeah.

Speaker 415:32

Just bad.

Speaker 415:35

Absolutely.

Speaker 415:37

Yeah.

Speaker 415:39

Yeah, control.

Presenter15:40

Now Why do you think the BBC in your time was unwilling to do that? And do you think in the end it's a bad thing or a good thing?

Sir Ian Trethowan15:47

I think you want a you want a mixture that the man who is presenting it should be an experienced journalist, but he must accept that there is an editor of the programme just as if he's a newspaper editor of a newspaper and that and that his word is final.

Presenter16:00

But you are proof that news gathering organizations like the BBC and ITN can attract more authoritative presenters if they are willing to give in title that kind of energy or control.

Sir Ian Trethowan16:10

And then we'll have a little bit of a triangle.

Presenter16:11

And if they don't they won't attract.

Sir Ian Trethowan16:12

Absolutely. I think that's very fair. I don't know what happens to the BBC now. I would guess from what I see that they do have some editorial input.

Presenter16:22

Let's have your next record.

Sir Ian Trethowan16:24

When I was with the Yorkshire Post in the years immediately after the war, the Yorkshire Post used to have one, one, not two, one free ticket for every new production of Covent Garden. And I was the only person in the Yorkshire Post office who was interested in opera, and I didn't have a wife, so I wasn't at that time, so there wasn't a problem. So I used to go to every new production, Covent Garden. It was terribly exciting.

Sir Ian Trethowan16:45

And one of the many productions I saw was an opera which I come greatly to love, Don Carlos. And there is near the beginning the famous Oath duet in which Don Carlos and his great friend Poza sing of their commitment to trying to free the Flemish people from the Spanish yoke.

Speaker 417:15

On the STS

Speaker 417:26

Answer your name for the election.

Speaker 417:30

Yeah.

Presenter18:08

Jose Carreras and Piero Capucilli singing the Oath duet from Verdi's Don Carlos, with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Carrion.

Presenter18:17

So you went uh from ITN Syrian to the BBC, where you presented Westminster at work and gallery, but not Panorama, as we heard. And then one day in nineteen sixty eight, when you were hoeing your garden, the telephone rang and it was the BBC, and they wanted you to be managing director of radio. Were you surprised?

Sir Ian Trethowan18:34

I was actually astounded. It was Charles Curan, who had been named as Director General, but hadn't actually taken over. Charles ran me up. He said, well, are you interested? So I said, yes, I'll have a go. I then had three successive, three meetings with ever large groups of BBC governors. And finally, I was at the third session was in front of the whole board. And there was a very nice governor, Dame Mary Greene, who in the middle of this said, how many people have you ever managed? And I said, well, when I was deputy editor of ITN, I think I had.

Presenter19:04

Bannett

Sir Ian Trethowan19:08

Command 23 or something like that. And she turned to Hugh Green, who was then, or was a governor, had been director, and said, how many would he have under him if he were managing director of BBC Radio? And Hugh, with some relish, because I don't think he wanted me to have the job, said 4,000. And so she turned to me, sort of lifted her eyebrow. And I said, you made your point. I don't have any of the experience for this job. I believe I can do it. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. But you've got to decide.

Sir Ian Trethowan19:34

And I discovered afterwards that as far as sheep is concerned, that's okay.

Presenter19:37

and who did it for some years.

Sir Ian Trethowan19:39

And I did it for several years, and enjoyed it enormously. Radio was in a difficult position at that time. It felt that it was being very much pushed to the side by television.

Sir Ian Trethowan19:49

And when a a television presenter was suddenly

Sir Ian Trethowan19:52

Given to them as their managing director of radio, they didn't like that at all to start with.

Sir Ian Trethowan19:56

But we eventually got on quite quickly, we got on very well as I went around talking to everybody.

Sir Ian Trethowan20:02

And I think we had a a good and uh good successful relation.

Presenter20:05

So that was really the turning point in your career, wasn't it? At the age of forty six, when you went from in front of the scenes, as it were, to to behind the scenes, and you then, as I said earlier, ran then the gamut because you went from

Sir Ian Trethowan20:07

Yeah.

Presenter20:17

Managing Director of Radio to Managing Director of Television for one year, and thence to Director General.

Sir Ian Trethowan20:21

And the

Presenter20:24

In BBC terms, that was a a a meteoric journey, uh to come in at the top level and run through the big three in that way. What do you put it down to? Good calculation on your part or a dollop of good luck?

Sir Ian Trethowan20:34

A lot of good luck. Oh, a lot of good luck. Without question, of course. When I made the move to managing director of radio, it was obviously a gamble, but I felt it was one that I would never be able to live with myself if I hadn't taken, you know. And there was at that time the chance of becoming director general, but it was a pretty thin chance because there were a number of absolutely first-class people really ahead of me in the line for all sorts of reasons. Several of them dropped off. I mean, David Attleborough, for instance, who would have made him, I think, absolutely first-class Director General, simply didn't want to get on in mid-management, wanted to go back to the

Sir Ian Trethowan21:07

taking his camera into the jungle and and there were several others who uh went across to commercial television and that sort of thing so that luck played a played a very efficient part.

Presenter21:15

Do you think your background in politics helped, though, a little? Because it teaches you the art of not just argument, but of manoeuvre, doesn't it? And the BBC has always been, and still is, I think, um a a place where a lot of manoeuvring for position goes on.

Sir Ian Trethowan21:30

I think that the fact that I had a lot of experience in politics was a major factor as far as the governors were concerned.

Sir Ian Trethowan21:38

I don't think quite to be honest as much in dealing with the BBC internally as dealing with the BBC's relations with Whitehall and with Westminster, which are always difficult and which were clearly going to be extremely difficult in the five years ahead. Perhaps above all, the BBC Charter had to be renewed.

Sir Ian Trethowan21:57

And I think the governors felt that

Sir Ian Trethowan22:00

I had the experience to be able to negotiate the new charter.

Sir Ian Trethowan22:05

And indeed, during my time, I suppose the thing of which I am, I suppose, most proud, really, is that I did negotiate a new charter for the BBC, which left its position completely untouched, despite a lot of apparent threats to it at various times of the preceding years.

Presenter22:21

Yeah.

Presenter22:23

Record number five.

Sir Ian Trethowan22:25

This is a very much a family choice in a sense that

Sir Ian Trethowan22:30

Particularly when I was doing the top jobs in the BBC, we all liked to get away to France and Italy in the summer, and we did quite often. And so the five of us, my wife and the three girls who were then all at school, would drive through the long roads of Europe. And the great question was, what music should we play? The girls weren't frightfully keen on bronze. I wasn't frightfully keen on pop. So we compromised on a great favourite of dad's, Nanimus Curly.

Speaker 423:00

Feel of the white rose blooms again

Speaker 423:07

You must leave me, leave me lonely So goodbye, my love, dear bed

Speaker 423:21

Stephen the white rose blooms again.

Presenter23:27

Nana Muscouri singing The White Rose of Athens. How did you feel when you finally entered the Director General's office thirteen years ago and sat down in his chair? Can you recall that moment?

Sir Ian Trethowan23:38

Oh, yes. I mean one had uh I had a a very clear sense of of history. And I had a I had a sense of awe, quite frankly, and uh uh a sense of tremendous responsibility for what was what was laid on one.

Presenter23:52

There were two uh major areas of conflict, blazing rows, no less, I think, that you had to deal with um between the BBC and Westminster during your term of office. The first was in nineteen seventy nine, when the Tonight programme screened an interview with a a hooded member of the INLA, the uh Irish National Liberation Army, who had murdered Airy and Eve, an interview which you regret, I think, having allowed to be broadcast.

Sir Ian Trethowan24:15

Yes, I'm on reflection. I I felt fairly soon afterwards I made a mistake. It happens. But I came to the conclusion because a lot of my friends in politics, quite sort of middle-of-the-road people who weren't particularly close to Mrs. Thatcher,

Sir Ian Trethowan24:30

Nonetheless said, but you shouldn't have done that. It was too soon after Ari's death. And it was, and it was a mistake, and I regretted it.

Presenter24:36

There was an emotional hostility.

Sir Ian Trethowan24:37

Hostility.

Presenter24:38

But if you're willing to sacrifice the rational argument for the um emotional hostility, do you by the same token agree to day, then, with the the ban in existence on on interviews with members of Sinn Fein?

Sir Ian Trethowan24:43

Dimitri

Sir Ian Trethowan24:50

No, I don't. The problem is that...

Sir Ian Trethowan24:53

not just the government, but that we are all trying to do

Sir Ian Trethowan24:56

two different things. One is there's the policy of fighting a war against a particularly vicious enemy.

Sir Ian Trethowan25:02

which, as it were, might require one approach towards reporting. The other side is we're trying to get a peaceful political settlement, and that requires a very open uh approach from the media. Quite frankly, I think the government sometimes can't sort out.

Sir Ian Trethowan25:20

Its own measures, really.

Sir Ian Trethowan25:22

It's trying to do both these things and it can't always, I think, see it correctly what the role of the media should be. This particular ban, I think is really rather silly, because as you know, what it involves is you can show an IRA man speaking. Somebody else can read his word, but you can't actually have him saying his word. I think it's rather silly. I don't see what it might achieve by it, quite frankly.

Presenter25:47

The other um blazing row came not long after the screening of that Inle interview that we were talking about, um and that was um what's gone down in history as the Carrickmore incident, hasn't it, when uh this time it was the Panorama Programme, I think, filmed the IRA, apparently in control of of the village of Carrickmore, uh a Northern Ireland village near the border, created uproar in Westminster. Um now that you've never been so willing to apologise for.

Sir Ian Trethowan26:12

Not in the smallest degree. No, I mean as it happens when this this thing blew up, I was in hospital recovering from a heart attack.

Sir Ian Trethowan26:19

But when I got back I looked through all the papers, and I am bound to say that I think it was a combination of unfortunate circumstances that the Board of Governors of the BBC

Sir Ian Trethowan26:29

were meeting on a Thursday morning at the same time the Cabinet was meeting in number 10. And that morning a newspaper carried a screaming headline about the BBC filming IRA in charge. And everybody got, I think, over excited. It was a sort of a knee-jerk reaction.

Sir Ian Trethowan26:51

to an inflamed newspaper report to which the governors, unfortunately, as they were having it presented to them while they were sitting round the table, for the only time in my experience lost their nerve. What they should have done is simply say, look, just hang on, let's just see what this is all about. And that once they'd gone into it, they would have seen that there was nothing very much. Nothing like it had been blown up to them.

Presenter27:15

But those two incidents undoubtedly fanned, if you like, Tory distaste for the BBC. And then there was its coverage of the Falklands War a couple of years later, which did little to enhance that relationship. What do you think of that relationship between the government and the BBC? Why do you think the Government is so critical of the BBC?

Sir Ian Trethowan27:34

It's not just this government. Any government wishes to see its policies reflected favourably, instinctively doesn't like programmes made which appear to question its policies or raise the difficulties that it faces. But the broadcasters have to do it.

Presenter27:50

But it's gone further than that now, hasn't it, in in this last decade of Thatcherism, that it's not simply been a matter of not liking programmes that uh don't go along with your policies. There have been direct criticisms from the Government that that the B B C

Presenter28:05

um in the early part of the decade was left wing. Now those were your years. Do you believe that you left behind a current affairs group that was left wing in the main?

Sir Ian Trethowan28:16

No, not at all. What uh BBC Current Affairs was what most journalists are, and I suspect in the BBC still are. Uh as in newspapers it is their role to question, and if they find uh things which they think uh are inimical to the public interest, to report them.

Presenter28:32

But they must have political beliefs of their own.

Sir Ian Trethowan28:35

They will have political beliefs of their own, but I didn't care what a a man's private political beliefs might be. What matters is what he did on the screen, or what he did over the air.

Sir Ian Trethowan28:44

If he clearly had some political beliefs which were affecting his work.

Sir Ian Trethowan28:50

Then he was out, or he has been moved into some other area.

Presenter28:54

Did you find much of that?

Sir Ian Trethowan28:55

Right.

Sir Ian Trethowan28:56

Very difficult.

Presenter28:57

Record number six.

Sir Ian Trethowan28:58

I have to come back to Mozart. This is a lovely duet from Don Giovanni, where the Don is trying to seduce the peasant girl Zelina. And at this particular moment, he came unstuck later. This particular moment he was doing rather well.

Speaker 429:25

How many are in the sin?

Speaker 430:03

Holy law.

Presenter30:15

SAMUEL RAMI and Kathleen Battle singing the aria La Cidarem La Mano from Mozart's Don Giovanni, with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Carian. You patently adore opera, Syrian. Has it been a life long?

Sir Ian Trethowan30:28

Yes, it has. I mean, my parents loved opera. So I was used to hearing opera records from a very early age.

Presenter30:36

That and and racing, I think, and as I said, you're chairman of of the levee board, uh they're the two great passions of your life. I suppose they are, really, yes.

Sir Ian Trethowan30:44

Yes. I'm not a great uh great punter. I'm a very cowardly gambler, so I only bet in very tiny amounts when I do. But it's it's the it's the a the horses and they I think they they look marvellous and see them in motion. It's a it's it's a it's a wonderful sight. And we've made a lot of very, very good friends in racing.

Presenter31:03

So racing and the opera, but are those activities perhaps now somewhat curtailed because you find yourself confined to a wheelchair?

Presenter31:10

Not

Sir Ian Trethowan31:11

Greatly. I mean I can't get around uh as easily, but uh certainly when um I mean I can when I'm sitting at a desk that's all right. Or when I'm sitting at a restaurant, which I like to do quite often, uh there's no problem. No, I can get around I can get around race courses. They're quite used to seeing uh chaps in wheelchairs and race courses.

Presenter31:28

But but it's a muscle problem.

Sir Ian Trethowan31:30

Yes, it's the mouth of problem.

Presenter31:31

We were talking earlier about how well you managed your career once you went behind the scenes. It has to be said you've managed to go on doing so after the B B C with the Levy Board and Gleinbourne we've mentioned, and you're a trustee of the British Museum and Chairman of Thames Television. Good planning it may be, but I think there's a rather generous dollop of good fortune in there, too, isn't there?

Sir Ian Trethowan31:49

Oh, yes. I mean, I I've uh really things have have panned out. I've also I think I should say that I've I've had a tremendously supportive family. My wife has uh not only been very supportive, but she's been a very wise guide at

Sir Ian Trethowan32:03

at various sort of quite critical moments, you know, should I or should I not? And um her advice has invariably proved to be wise.

Presenter32:11

Record number seven. Yeah.

Sir Ian Trethowan32:12

Record number seven is really chosen for her and as much as for me. It's from Gigi, which is a great favourite of ours. And the actual tune from Gigi we have chosen celebrates one of my own personal interests in life. The night they invented champagne. It's plain as it can be. They follow you and me.

Speaker 432:34

They fought with the UNB

Speaker 432:36

The night, champagne!

Sir Ian Trethowan32:36

And I'm champagne.

Speaker 432:39

They absolutely do they all want to do the squipping the sky on champagne.

Sir Ian Trethowan32:43

Yeah.

Speaker 432:46

And shout everyone inside

Speaker 432:50

That since the world began, Cause who are a man has ever been as happy as we are?

Presenter32:59

Leslie Caron, Louis Jordan, and Hermione Gingold singing The Night They Invented Champagne from Gigi.

Presenter33:06

So, Suyn, as an ex-BBC man who's also worked extensively, actually, in in independent television, what do you think should happen to Auntie Now in this period of great change? Do you think the BBC should go on competing at every level, or should it do what some people think start uh concentrating on the areas that perhaps some commercial broadcasters are more reluctant to do, like high-class drama and arts programmes, expensive news and current affairs?

Sir Ian Trethowan33:31

I don't think I should say. I've always followed the rule, which I hope other people have always followed with me, that when I leave a job I don't try and lean over the shoulder of the people who succeeded me. And President Director General is a very old friend, as indeed is the chairman of the BBC. And it's up to them. They must work out their own salvation.

Presenter33:54

Right. Well, if you can't talk about the present, what about the future? You, it was, who who um had the charter renewed, who assured the future of the BBC till nineteen ninety six. What about after that, when the present director general and chairman have gone away?

Sir Ian Trethowan34:01

The two

Presenter34:07

Do you fear that the BBC will be much altered after 1996?

Sir Ian Trethowan34:12

I think that there will certainly be attempts to alter it. Whether the BBC should adjust its role, I think is very difficult to say and I wouldn't want to take a view. I certainly think that the less um

Sir Ian Trethowan34:27

Popular, populist, popular areas are essential to the BBC. When I was Director General, I used sometimes to say to people that you can make a case for saying that Radio Three is the cornerstone of the BBC.

Sir Ian Trethowan34:42

And the television people were frankly shocked at this. But I said that this is the one point above all where we are doing a distinctive service which nobody else could commercially provide.

Presenter34:54

It strikes me finally, having listened to you talking here today, um

Presenter34:59

That the Director Generalship is perhaps a nicer job to have had than to have.

Sir Ian Trethowan35:04

Oh no, then I've given you quite the wrong impression. It is no, it's the most tremendous fun. I mean there's no point in doing these very high pressure jobs if they're not fun. And I certainly found it great fun. Of course they have tremendous dramas and pressures and crises. But I mean that's what the job is about. And if you don't want to deal with them, well then don't become Director General.

Presenter35:24

Was it the best job we've ever had?

Sir Ian Trethowan35:27

Yeah.

Presenter35:27

Yeah.

Sir Ian Trethowan35:27

Yeah.

Presenter35:27

Yes, of course.

Presenter35:29

Shall we have the last record?

Sir Ian Trethowan35:30

The last record is Opera at its the

Sir Ian Trethowan35:34

Marvellous trio towards the end of Rosencavalier when the marshaline surrenders her lover, Octavian, to the younger Sophie.

Presenter36:46

Regine Crispin, Helen Donut, and Yvonne Minton singing Harpmeer Gelopt from the final act of Richard Strauss's De Rosen Cavalier, with the Vienna Philharmonic, conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Presenter36:58

From the look on your face, Sir Ian, I think that may be the record of the eight, is it not?

Sir Ian Trethowan37:02

Yes, it would. I can picture myself sitting on the beach in the warm night, listening to that sublime music floating up to the sky. Lovely.

Presenter37:12

What about your book? You have the complete works of Shakespeare, and you have the Bible. What's the special book that you'd like?

Sir Ian Trethowan37:17

I think I take War and Peace, not just because it's a very long book, but because it's a tremendous human story, the interweaving of the family histories. But also, because Tolstoy has this very strong, broad historical sweep. I don't necessarily agree with his particular theories about the historical movements, but I think they make a tremendous reading.

Presenter37:44

And a luxury.

Sir Ian Trethowan37:47

The luxury I would take is uh all the champagne that I could get onto the life raft before the ship went down.

Presenter37:55

And you can play your your Gigi, the night they invented champagne, and drink it all by yourself.

Presenter38:00

Surya and Tratham, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Speaker 338:12

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.