Michael Tilson Thomas

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:28

My Castaway this week is an American conductor and virtuoso. At the age of twenty four he was given an opportunity granted to few but dreamed of by many when he took over the maestros baton of the Boston Symphony Orchestra in mid concert after their conductor had fallen ill.

Presenter0:45

Since then, flair and good looks have helped him gain international recognition, while his ambition to bring music to the people has made him something of a television star in the United States. Now forty five, he's been the principal conductor of the London Symphony Orchestra for nearly two years. He loves all music, and his admirers love him. They call him the most exciting American conductor since Leonard Bernstein. He is Michael Tilson Thomas.

Presenter1:13

Michael, do you class that moment twenty years ago when you had to take over in mid-concert as Luck? You must have pondered it many times since.

Michael Tilson Thomas1:21

It was a moment that occurred so quickly that I could scarcely gather any impressions while it was actually taking place.

Michael Tilson Thomas1:28

When Maestro Steinberg said to me, Put your suit on, you're going to conduct, I just stood there as if I hadn't heard him, and he had to repeat it a few times. I thought, he must be joking.

Michael Tilson Thomas1:38

And then afterwards, after the concert, I uh telephoned my parents and said, well, this is a very major thing that's happened, and I'm sure it's going to send my life spinning, perhaps out of control, in all sorts of directions I can't imagine. And I do hope I manage to get control of it again, and I'm still trying twenty years later.

Presenter1:56

Well, now, as I was saying just now, you're you're an American television star, a chat show regular. Do you enjoy all of that?

Michael Tilson Thomas2:01

I do enjoy it. I've done a lot of those shows. Of course, I've been very lucky to do quite a great deal of television here in the United Kingdom as well.

Presenter2:09

But you have an ulterior motive, as it were, of the best kind, don't you? Because it means you can bring music to the people, you can popularize music.

Michael Tilson Thomas2:17

I think people within any particular sphere of music loving tend to be rather proprietary often and rather suspicious and defensive when it comes to admitting that other forms of music have any merit. And I find that so silly because the whole attraction of music is that it is a universal expression of mankind and the point is to get at as much as possible of what it is people have wanted to sing, wanted to pour out from their hearts in music and in whatever genre it's been.

Presenter2:49

Indeed, but what can you say to people who say, Oh, I couldn't possibly go and see the LSO at the Barbecue and I wouldn't understand if I sat there all evening. It would be above my head it's all too highbrow for me.

Michael Tilson Thomas3:01

I would say that perhaps the way to take a new sort of music into oneself is to take it in smaller bits. It's even all right, you know, to go to a concert and only listen to part of it. I was raised in a theatrical family and for many, many years of my life I never saw a show from beginning to end. It was always in New York.

Michael Tilson Thomas3:17

So, oh, the best scene in Fair Lady is the end of the first act or the second scene of Pajama Game or this. When I we went from theater to theater seeing different parts of things.

Presenter3:27

Just getting a kind of impression of the whole.

Michael Tilson Thomas3:28

Yeah.

Presenter3:29

Well, let's begin to find out which pieces of music are important to you. Now, what's the first record that you've chosen to take on your desert island?

Michael Tilson Thomas3:36

Well, as I'm going to be on a desert island and I probably won't be hearing any voice but my own, most of the selections I've chosen actually are vocal selections because singers are so important to me and the inflection of words in music is such an important part of my life.

Michael Tilson Thomas3:53

So I've chosen the Winterreise, fantastic song cycle, by Schubert, also thinking perhaps there won't be any winter on this island, I'm not sure, but this would be interesting to have the sense of a season that I'm not experiencing. And probably the greatest recording of Die Winterreise is the one made by Dietrich Fischeliskau.

Speaker 44:13

Love and the green and afforded them to

Speaker 44:20

Dosh T.

Speaker 44:28

Yeah.

Speaker 44:30

Inside and shah.

Speaker 44:34

Soul Mission receives of trouble.

Speaker 44:43

In sign a rain so much your sleeve of

Speaker 44:56

Estoke in Freid and Lighten So

Presenter5:07

Easy

Presenter5:12

Dietrich Fischer Diskar singing part of Der Lindenbaum from Schubert's Winteriser.

Presenter5:17

Michael, you strike me as a a very energetic person. Do you like the idea of being cast away on a desert island, or will you find it deeply frustrating?

Michael Tilson Thomas5:25

I'm going to enjoy it thoroughly, I think.

Michael Tilson Thomas5:28

This would be a wonderful chance to be able to discover some of the thoughts that are really going on in my head that I never have a chance to listen to.

Presenter5:35

That's the problem, isn't it, when you lead such a full life, that you're constantly racing to keep up with yourself.

Michael Tilson Thomas5:41

Exactly true.

Presenter5:42

Is it a very glamorous life?

Michael Tilson Thomas5:44

It's much more hard work than it is glamorous.

Presenter5:47

What are the best rewards of it all then for you when do you go to bed happiest?

Michael Tilson Thomas5:52

There is a tremendous exhilaration that comes from making music and that comes from making music with a large band of people when we all experience a kind of Einfeurung is a kind of one becoming in the course of the performance and the performance starts to have a kind of sweep to it.

Michael Tilson Thomas6:10

in which the ideas of the composer and all of our individual ideas as people seem to be united, that is a very exhilarating and wonderful sensation.

Presenter6:18

But how do you set about creating that with an orchestra? Do you stand in front of them and and and

Presenter6:23

Take before you the piece of music that you want to play and talk to them about it, or do you say, Right, let's give it a whirl and see what we make of it, or do you coach them note by note? How do you do it?

Michael Tilson Thomas6:32

Well, you you'd use a a lot of different techniques, but with an orchestra like the LSO, which has a very great tradition in playing these big masterpieces.

Michael Tilson Thomas6:41

It's a question of starting in, playing the piece, and establishing some priorities about what the tempo is going to be, what sort of articulation it's going to have, what sort of mood even it's going to have, perhaps.

Michael Tilson Thomas6:52

A lot of that you can communicate just by the sort of way you move or the kind of eye contact that you have with people and just little things here and there very often produce the best sort of performances.

Presenter7:04

I've seen it written, though, that you can frighten them a bit, because you you want perhaps a different or perhaps even an extraordinary performance from them. I read somewhere that that backstage at the Barbican can be as shaky as a cup final dressing room when you're conducting.

Michael Tilson Thomas7:18

I thought I was the only one who felt that, but nobody else did.

Presenter7:20

But I suppose the implication is that you are asking the musicians for something different, isn't it? Different from your predecessor, from Claudio Obado, or from Andrei Previn before that.

Michael Tilson Thomas7:28

Hopefully we're always asking things that are different from anyone else. The whole interest in a performance is that it has something different to say. But I think it would be fair to say that I am interested in pursuing a sometimes vertiginous and highly energetic course in music making. I like to take things almost to the edge of catastrophe, perhaps in pursuit of the ultimate sweep of

Michael Tilson Thomas7:57

possibility in a performance and then just pull it back just at the last moment.

Presenter8:01

No wonder they're shake.

Presenter8:04

How much time do you spend with them, though? As as we said, you were appointed, what, uh, in may nineteen eighty eight, weren't you, as the principal conductor at the LSO. How much time in a year do you spend with them?

Michael Tilson Thomas8:10

Yeah, Lisa.

Michael Tilson Thomas8:13

About three months, three, four months, but some of that's outside of the country on tour, in other parts of the world.

Presenter8:18

But is that enough to make your mark uh to mould them in the way that you want?

Michael Tilson Thomas8:24

Well, it's a particular team and we work together. This team comes back together, so we have a sense of contact and reference to the work that we've done for.

Presenter8:33

Why don't we hear you with them actually? That's your next record, isn't it?

Michael Tilson Thomas8:36

Yes, I've chosen as I'm now cast away in great solitude, I've chosen a very energetic, spirited piece encompassing all of life.

Michael Tilson Thomas8:46

Which is Ein Heldenleben by Rickard Strauss, and it is played by the London Symphony Orchestra under my direction. It's one of the things I'm proudest of in my whole life making this record.

Presenter9:55

The opening of Richard Strauss's Einheldenleben, played by the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by my castaway, Michael Tilson Thomas. Let's go back to your roots, Michael. What are they?

Michael Tilson Thomas10:05

I am of Russian origin, actually. Tomashevsky was my original family name.

Michael Tilson Thomas10:09

which my father changed,

Michael Tilson Thomas10:11

But with my grandfather, who actually came over to the United States from Russia, was a very famous boy soprano when he first arrived.

Michael Tilson Thomas10:19

And then went from being a

Michael Tilson Thomas10:21

religious singer to becoming a great star of theater and musicals and many other things in New York.

Presenter10:28

He founded a theatre, in fact

Michael Tilson Thomas10:29

Yes, he founded Yiddish Theatre in New York, which became the basis of Actors' Equity and all the other American legitimate theater unions and also really was the foundation of the American musical.

Presenter10:44

Do you remember your grandparents? Did you know them?

Michael Tilson Thomas10:46

I knew my grandmother, Bessie, who was also a great star in her own right. She had a very interesting career because she had begun as

Michael Tilson Thomas10:54

A tragedian, really, and then

Michael Tilson Thomas10:58

Mid-career she had discovered, or actually Boris realized, that she had a great flair for comedy and she made a complete transformation and became really a very well-known comedian, specializing in a lot of uh trouser parts and parts uh where she did uh cabaret acts in

Michael Tilson Thomas11:20

tails, you know, wide tie-in tails and things like this. And in fact

Michael Tilson Thomas11:23

When I was a very small boy playing a couple of concerts, the very first set of tails that I ever wore in a concert were ones that I inherited from my grandmother.

Presenter11:30

Yeah.

Presenter11:33

And um a great friend of theirs was George Gershwin, I think.

Michael Tilson Thomas11:37

George and Ira Gershwin were young kids growing up on the East Side of New York.

Michael Tilson Thomas11:42

They attended my grandparents' theatre regularly.

Michael Tilson Thomas11:45

And they got to know they were even in a couple of productions as I think of it now.

Michael Tilson Thomas11:49

And they got to know my uncles and began to hang out frequently at uh my grandparents' house. And George gave my father kind of rudimentary instruction in how to play the piano.

Michael Tilson Thomas12:01

And they also went to summer camp. They went to a wonderful place called Brant Lake Camp, where all sorts of show people sent their kids.

Michael Tilson Thomas12:08

And everybody was always inventing snappy little lyrics. My father wrote a little song which was something about the opening of the tomb of Tutankhamun. It was what, In the days when Tutankhamun lived on tune, a fish and salmon in his palace by the nifty knotty nile, all the fishermen and gentry, every nobleman and century, looked to him to set the standard of the style. So this kind of lyric, this kind of playing with words, was something that.

Michael Tilson Thomas12:33

Ira very much adopted and George and Ira brought this combination of Jewish theater music and camp songs and the exuberant fun of youth into the whole form of American music.

Presenter12:46

So the the influence of of of Gershwin is very strong on the Tilson Thomas family. Has it been a strong influence on you?

Michael Tilson Thomas12:53

Yes, I've done quite a number of recordings of of George's work and I met Ira late in his life in Los Angeles and really had a wonderful time with him. He was a wonderful man and had a wonderful twinkle.

Presenter13:05

Do you see then a relationship between the music of George Gershwin and classical music, or are they two entirely separate things as far as you're concerned?

Michael Tilson Thomas13:12

No, I think they're getting closer and closer into the nature of his songs, particularly as we discover the original ways in which they were done, when they are done in a way that emphasizes the beauty of the voice and the simplicity and elegance of the words.

Presenter13:25

You patently could not survive without some Gershwin, which bit of you chosen.

Michael Tilson Thomas13:30

I've chosen some of the Gershwin song book.

Michael Tilson Thomas13:34

as sung by the magnificent Ella Fitzgerald who brought such elegance to all of this music.

Speaker 413:41

It's wonderful, it's marvelous.

Speaker 413:48

You should care for me.

Speaker 413:55

Awful nights, paradise, s what I love to see.

Michael Tilson Thomas14:01

Hey

Presenter14:03

What I love.

Presenter14:08

Ella Fitzgerald singing Gershwin's Wonderful, arranged and conducted by Nelson Riddle.

Presenter14:13

By the time you were born, though, Michael, the family had moved to Hollywood, I think.

Michael Tilson Thomas14:17

That's correct.

Presenter14:17

Why was that?

Michael Tilson Thomas14:19

My father wanted to work in the films.

Michael Tilson Thomas14:23

And he had really exhausted for a time all the possibilities of doing things with the Mercury Theatre and the Federal Theatre Project. And Paul Muni, the film actor who was also a relative of ours, was doing a lot of projects out in LA. So it seemed very natural for him to go out there. But it was great fun being there at that time. Hollywood Boulevard had amazing Christmas decorations, I remember. Whole trees were made out of papier-mâché or something like that, put up. And there were these wonderful restaurants that opened at five or six o'clock in the morning because all the stars had very early calls and they would go to have amazing breakfasts. And I remember my father taking me and being in a restaurant called Musso Franks in Hollywood and saying, now about six in the morning, saying, now over there, you see that? That's all the Barrymores. Remember you've seen them. You see, that's Lionel Barry, John Barrymore, Ethel Barrymore. And over there there's Tyrone Power and there's this one and then sometimes we'd go there at the end of the day and say, oh, you see that man in the corner looks rather in his cups. That's Faulkner. He's a very famous author. You'll read his books one day.

Presenter15:28

Where did you see yourself fitting into all of this as a boy? Were you a very serious musical boy, or were you dazzled by these bright lights? What did you want to do?

Michael Tilson Thomas15:37

I was attracted to the piano. I simply couldn't stay away from the piano. My father played it wonderfully and improvised wonderfully, and I began to improvise and play all kinds of music.

Michael Tilson Thomas15:50

I was given piano lessons for the first time when I was around eight because they thought, well, they didn't start then. I would just

Michael Tilson Thomas15:57

make up everything and I'd never be able to

Michael Tilson Thomas15:59

Read music, so they better give me some sort of foundation.

Presenter16:02

So did they think that music would be your career?

Michael Tilson Thomas16:06

I think they hoped that science or mathematics would be my career because I was talented in those areas as well. So it might have been. Might have been. But I had such.

Michael Tilson Thomas16:14

Inspiring teaching.

Michael Tilson Thomas16:16

in the field of music and arts because there were these great émigrés living in Los Angeles. And I had the great fortune to work with Gregor Pietogorski and Asha Heifetz and with Igor Stravinsky and these kinds of people make a deep impact upon you.

Presenter16:32

But presumably uh you could have chosen uh a career as a concert pianist.

Michael Tilson Thomas16:38

I might have done. I did play quite a lot of piano. In fact, this year I returned to

Michael Tilson Thomas16:42

playing as a soloist, did a tour of the United States as a piano soloist, gave recitals for the first time in about fifteen years.

Presenter16:49

Do you prefer conducting?

Presenter16:51

Or being at the piano.

Michael Tilson Thomas16:52

Well, they both have of course great rewards. Uh playing a recital all by yourself is a much more terrifying thing to do, I think, because you are there all alone. Every single note, everything is your responsibility.

Michael Tilson Thomas17:10

I was so happy to have that experience again and to become comfortable doing it again.

Presenter17:15

Some great pianists, of course, choose to do both. I mean, Ash Genazi, Baron Boehm, both play and conduct. Perhaps that's what you'd like to do.

Michael Tilson Thomas17:22

I might make some mixture of that, but it's a tremendous exercise in self-discipline to try and keep these things going at once.

Presenter17:30

Let's have your fourth record. What's that?

Michael Tilson Thomas17:32

I've chosen one of my most favorite pieces, perhaps the most favorite piece. It's the Vespers Service of sixteen ten by Monteverdi.

Michael Tilson Thomas17:41

This is a piece that is so beautiful I can scarcely talk about it without getting

Michael Tilson Thomas17:46

Misty eyed.

Michael Tilson Thomas17:48

and the first time I heard it,

Michael Tilson Thomas17:50

was when I was playing it, I was asked to play continuo on harpsichord.

Michael Tilson Thomas17:55

In a performance of this in Los Angeles, I was around maybe 19 years old.

Michael Tilson Thomas18:00

And I sat there playing continuo, and the music was so beautiful that I could scarcely play the next chord as it was coming over.

Michael Tilson Thomas18:08

Particularly

Michael Tilson Thomas18:10

I noticed then there was someone looking over my shoulder as I was playing, and I looked around and it was Igor Stravinsky who was sitting there.

Michael Tilson Thomas18:18

who was a great lover of Monteverde and Schutz and all this music, and he was attending these performances which Robert Kraft was conducting and all the rehearsals, and there he was. So you can imagine that I could really had difficulty in concentrating.

Michael Tilson Thomas18:31

To figure out what the next chord might be. And it's still my most favorite piece.

Speaker 418:40

In our youth war

Speaker 418:45

Uh

Presenter19:34

Part of the Vespers of sixteen ten by Monteverdi, sung by the Monteverdi Choir, conducted by John Elliott Gardner. Going back to your appointment as principal conductor of the LSO, Michael, you are yet again for them a a foreign conductor. This isn't some kind of

Presenter19:49

Chauvinistic question. But it is a fact, isn't it, that the LSO hasn't had a British conductor since the war.

Michael Tilson Thomas19:53

You know, it's very often the case these days in the international world of music that conductors in one country actually come from another one in the United States.

Michael Tilson Thomas20:03

Most of the orchestras are led by conductors from England, from France, from Italy, and so on.

Presenter20:10

Why do you think that is though? Why why should it be necessary then to choose a foreigner?

Michael Tilson Thomas20:15

I don't know that it's necessary. Perhaps it just makes uh a bit of a change. Is it a chance for a different slant on the repertoire, a different emphasis perhaps, which is interesting for a period of time?

Michael Tilson Thomas20:26

Yeah.

Michael Tilson Thomas20:28

Yeah.

Presenter20:29

Yes.

Presenter20:30

There are also actually, while we're discussing tradition and omission, there are very few women conductors. I suppose one thinks immediately of Jane Glover, but I must say

Presenter20:39

I have difficulty bringing other names to mind.

Michael Tilson Thomas20:41

Well, there certainly will be more women conductors now in the United States and in this country, everywhere in the world. There are many more women who have become interested in conducting. I think part of the reason that they didn't before was

Michael Tilson Thomas20:54

Simply, they weren't granted the opportunity, but also they didn't think about it early enough in their lives.

Michael Tilson Thomas21:01

Now, however, I can think of a number of young women who are in their early twenties, who've already begun conducting and I'm sure will be very successful.

Presenter21:10

It's not then that um orchestras in general are still rather male bastions.

Michael Tilson Thomas21:16

There are some remaining on the continent that are, but I think that it's really changed very, very much.

Presenter21:23

I said, what what percentage of the L S O is female?

Michael Tilson Thomas21:26

I think it must be getting on toward about a fourth of the orchestra.

Michael Tilson Thomas21:30

And there really is a very open and friendly spirit about musicians coming into the orchestra, whoever they are, if it's it's the right sort of person in terms of what you are as as, a spirit, that I think is the orchestra's greatest concern. That's very different, you know, from the way the American system works because

Michael Tilson Thomas21:49

In America, everything is done very impersonally behind screens and no one really knows anything about the new candidates. But with an orchestra like the LSO, where

Michael Tilson Thomas21:59

The members of the orchestra themselves own the orchestra and want to feel very good about it. They they want to get along very well with one another. So it's important that not only that someone play very well, but that also they are sympathetic.

Presenter22:12

Should we have some more music?

Michael Tilson Thomas22:13

Yes, absolutely.

Michael Tilson Thomas22:16

The next choice I've made is to take a really great piece by Schumann, Chrysleriana, and I've chosen a performance by Vladimir Horowitz, one of my great heroes, someone I've enjoyed hearing play very many times, and

Michael Tilson Thomas22:32

I had the good fortune to chat with him sometimes after the performance and observe the wonderful cool and elegance with which he approached music, an incredible sense of colour that he had.

Michael Tilson Thomas22:43

And this movement that you're going to hear is the second movement of Christ Lauriana, which is one of the most difficult pieces to play, and one which, if played properly, sounds absolutely effortless.

Presenter23:55

Vladimir Horowitz playing part of the second movement of Schumann's Chrysleriana. You shake your head in wonder, Michael, why is it so difficult to play?

Michael Tilson Thomas24:04

Because the ranges of the notes are so extreme, when you play this piece your hands are both stretched out like two tortured tarantulas desperately trying to escape from one another, and yet the illusion of the notes must be a wonderful, effortless rising and falling up and down the scale with no indication that actually the thumbs are trading notes back and forth and that the various voices are going constantly from one hand into another.

Presenter24:33

Because you're right it did. It sounded beautifully simple, didn't it?

Michael Tilson Thomas24:36

It must be so, but to achieve this is a life's mastery.

Presenter24:42

Well, now you're here doing four concerts a week at the moment with the LSO in Britain, then you're off on tour with them. What kind of reception do you get with them abroad?

Michael Tilson Thomas24:50

Very enthusiastic.

Presenter24:52

Is it always a sell out?

Michael Tilson Thomas24:53

Yes, absolutely.

Presenter24:55

I I ask you that because I want to ask you really quite a difficult question, which is that why it is that when Britain, and London in particular, is regarded by many now as perhaps the busiest and the most exciting musical city in the world,

Presenter25:08

And why, although it has many excellent orchestras, it hasn't actually got one with the the international reputation, has it, of the of the Vienna Philharmonic or the Chicago Symphony, or the Berlin Philharmonic? Why is that?

Michael Tilson Thomas25:22

Well, I can't quite agree with you there because the London Symphony has a very, very great international reputation.

Michael Tilson Thomas25:28

Even in my own case, I first knew of the orchestra through the great records they made with Dorati and Hornstein way off in Los Angeles. I avidly bought all the records the orchestra made.

Michael Tilson Thomas25:38

Uh my whole life was changed by hearing the recording of Mahler III that Hornstein made with him. I think a lot of the worlds was changed by it.

Michael Tilson Thomas25:46

And certainly as we travel frequently to

Michael Tilson Thomas25:49

Germany and

Michael Tilson Thomas25:51

Salzburg and Japan and the United States where we're so regularly asked to go, there's a very, very devoted public abroad in all of these places that treasures visits.

Michael Tilson Thomas26:00

by the London Symphony Orchestra. I mean there's even a town in the United States that's adopted the LSO in Florida, the Daytona Florida, that brings the whole orchestra there because they just are so friendly and so much in admiration of each and every member of the orchestra.

Presenter26:14

Another record.

Michael Tilson Thomas26:16

Now this one.

Michael Tilson Thomas26:18

is a great

Michael Tilson Thomas26:20

Mas Missa Pangelingua by Josquin Dupre. Josquin Dupre is one of the great composers of all time.

Michael Tilson Thomas26:26

Netherlands composer of the of the Middle Ages.

Michael Tilson Thomas26:30

And this is a piece which uses a great tune, Panjalingua, from which a glorious contrapuntal setting is made. And this piece really completely comforts me and brings me into a state of tranquillity. It elevates and sets at rest my mind.

Presenter27:33

Part of the Missa Punge Lingua by Josquin Depre, sung by the Taris scholars, directed by Peter Phillips. We were talking earlier, Michael, about Gershwin's influence on modern classical music. You've also been known to to shock, I think, the classical music establishment by saying that

Presenter27:50

Classical music isn't necessarily special, isn't necessarily best. What have you meant by that?

Michael Tilson Thomas27:56

I believe music is such a wide art form, and there is a time and place in everyone's life for different sorts of music.

Michael Tilson Thomas28:05

And sometimes when you're walking down the street, perhaps at night all by yourself.

Michael Tilson Thomas28:11

It might be a tune from a Gershon musical or something from a movie score or the last line of an old blues tune or you just can't really say, which will bring you the sort of comfort that you're looking for at that moment.

Presenter28:28

So in that sense no one genre of music

Presenter28:32

One one type of music is inferior to any other.

Michael Tilson Thomas28:36

Well, I must say I would have difficulty with certain of uh the uh computer synthesized rap international record productions that we are hearing a lot of these days. I would be hard pressed to place that in terms of merit with some of the great things from the world of jazz or or classical music.

Presenter28:56

You quite like Oriental music, don't you?

Michael Tilson Thomas28:58

I do like a lot of Oriental music, Gagaku music, Gamelan music. I was in Bali last year listening to a lot of

Michael Tilson Thomas29:04

Gamelan music.

Presenter29:05

Do you need that? Do you need to go there and listen to different music? Is that um

Presenter29:09

Part of the way you continue to educate yourself, as it were.

Michael Tilson Thomas29:12

Well, it's great fun to go to an exotic place where they have an entirely different musical culture. And it is entirely different. This is a place where I asked them if they knew any Western music and they apologetically said no, we really didn't. So I thought I would test them. I said, well, have you heard of Mozart? No, sorry. Beethoven? No. How about Barbara Streisand? No. How about Michael Jackson? When they said they hadn't heard of him, I knew they were really purely involved in only their own musical traditions.

Presenter29:38

Shall we have your record number seven?

Michael Tilson Thomas29:41

This is a recording by a very great singer Mahalia Jackson, who recorded so many great gospel tunes and spiritual tunes, but this one has the particular

Michael Tilson Thomas29:50

joy of being a great

Michael Tilson Thomas29:52

Spiritual, written by the American composer Duke Ellington, who certainly is one of the great original geniuses of this century, and a wonderful example of how someone can really be a classic composer, even though he wrote in a genre which could be classified by some people as, oh, well, that's jazz. It's a pity, really, that there aren't more pieces by Ellington that we as classical musicians can play, because he had such a great sense of melody and such an amazing ear for the inflection of both voices and instruments.

Speaker 430:23

Oh dear love.

Speaker 430:32

God Almighty

Speaker 430:36

Go on above.

Speaker 430:43

Fear so locked down.

Speaker 430:49

And see Ma.

Speaker 430:53

We pull through.

Presenter31:00

Mahalia Jackson singing Come Sunday with Duke Ellington and his orchestra from Black, Brown and Beige.

Presenter31:07

Michael, I was saying at the beginning that you've been likened to Leonard Bernstein. I suppose it's it's an inevitable, if superficial, comparison, because of of the breadth of your musical interests, really. Do you do you object? Do you mind? How do you react?

Michael Tilson Thomas31:21

I'm flattered. He's a most remarkable individual. I mean, he really does.

Michael Tilson Thomas31:25

Having

Michael Tilson Thomas31:26

All-encompassing appreciation and understanding and mastery of all these musical forms.

Presenter31:32

You know him, obviously.

Presenter31:34

Do you do you learn from him?

Michael Tilson Thomas31:35

I've certainly discussed a lot of musical ideas with him over the years and

Michael Tilson Thomas31:40

It's been something I could

Michael Tilson Thomas31:41

when I was first conducting the Boston Symphony, could go to and say

Michael Tilson Thomas31:45

What do you think about this Sebalius piece or this Brahms piece or whatever?

Presenter31:49

What's the best piece of advice he's ever given you?

Michael Tilson Thomas31:52

Gosh, I think it would be something like uh just

Michael Tilson Thomas31:56

Take it a step at a time.

Michael Tilson Thomas31:57

Keep it simple.

Presenter31:59

I'd like to end with perhaps a cliché question, but one to which, nevertheless, it's fascinating to know the answer of every individual. I mean, who is the conductor's conductor? Whom would you name?

Presenter32:10

as the greatest conductor in the world, either living or dead.

Michael Tilson Thomas32:14

There is no greatest conductor. There are a lot of very sincere and remarkably insightful people who've worked at different times. There's no question that in our time Leonard Bernstein has given enormously to the cause of many different composers.

Michael Tilson Thomas32:32

His

Michael Tilson Thomas32:33

Championship of Mahler and Nielsen and Ives and all kinds of American composers has been absolutely extraordinary. There's also no denying that Wilhelm Furtwängler.

Michael Tilson Thomas32:44

is someone who gave us a sense of the freedom, the interpretive freedom and underlying spiritual message of Beethoven and quite a number of other great German masters.

Michael Tilson Thomas32:56

But there are many people who've

Michael Tilson Thomas32:58

contributed specially in their own ways, and God bless all of em.

Presenter33:02

Let's have your last piece of music.

Michael Tilson Thomas33:05

Well, my last piece is a piece by Johannes Brahms, because at the very last moment, I must confess, I made this choice. I couldn't bear the thought of going off to this island without having something by Brahms. And Brahms really did write the greatest violin concerto of all.

Michael Tilson Thomas33:21

And this performance is by Fritz Chrysler, who w was a great musician, a wonderfully generous, humorous man, very connected with the whole tradition of the first days of this piece.

Michael Tilson Thomas33:33

And this performance has a great deal of that spontaneity and lightness of kind of cafe life, exactly kind of the borderline between the classical piece of music and the cabaret piece of music, and when these two things can fuse together and just sparkle deliciously.

Presenter34:43

Part of the last movement of Brahm's violin concerto, recorded in the late twenties by Fritz Chrysler, with the Berlin State Opera Orchestra conducted by Leo Blech.

Presenter34:53

Time for the impossible choice, Michael. Which of those records could you take only one would you choose?

Michael Tilson Thomas35:02

I think I would have to take the Monteverdi Vespers because although we only heard a little fanfare-like excerpt from it, it has such an amazing range. It contains very romantic music, very sad music, very devotional music, very joyous music. So that would give me

Michael Tilson Thomas35:19

the greatest variety of what the human experience is all about.

Presenter35:23

and remind you of Stravinsky breathing down your neck.

Michael Tilson Thomas35:25

Exactly.

Presenter35:26

And your book. You've got the Bible, and you've got the complete works of Shakespeare. What else would you like? One more.

Michael Tilson Thomas35:30

What else would

Michael Tilson Thomas35:32

I'd like the collected poems of Raina Maria Rilke, because I find his work so profound and reading his work is an inexhaustible search through the

Michael Tilson Thomas35:46

Wonderful, subtle meaning, said he.

Michael Tilson Thomas35:50

brings to the experience of just living. He had a very devotional sense of how precious each moment is, how individual and important each moment is. And by reading his poetry, which is something I do regularly,

Michael Tilson Thomas36:05

I try and rediscover that sense of how valuable every little instant of consciousness really is.

Presenter36:13

and a luxury.

Michael Tilson Thomas36:15

I would want the latest state of the art Yamaha MIDI computerized concert grand piano.

Michael Tilson Thomas36:25

It's a combination piano and computer so that you can play, but you can also store everything that you play, and you can compose with it, you can do amazing things with it. So it's really quite a glorious toy. I think it could keep one amused many, many hours.

Presenter36:40

Michael Tilson Thomas, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Speaker 336:52

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.