Dennis Skinner

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 10:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My castaway this week is a backbench Labour MP. After a grammar school education, he worked for 21 years in the coal mines of his native Derbyshire. He spent the next twenty years developing a reputation as one of our most effective Members of Parliament. His sharp, often rude interjections, coupled with his detailed knowledge of parliamentary procedure, have won him admiration from all sides of the House. Not that he has any time for compliments or favours. He is incorruptible, left-wing, and, say many of his supporters, very entertaining.

Presenter1:02

Proud to describe his inheritance as from good working class stock, he's the man whom the popular press call the Beast of Bolsover, but who is even better known as Dennis Skinner.

Presenter1:14

mister Skinner, why are you called the beast of Bolsover? Do you know its origins?

Dennis Skinner1:18

Yes, as a matter of fact, uh one of the MPs in the House on an occasion when they were talking about free trips and I said, You stand near opening your mouth. All the trips that you've been on out to the Middle East have been paid for and he responded and shouted to the Speaker, Can't you control this bloody beast of Bolsover?

Dennis Skinner1:36

And it's stuck ever since?

Presenter1:37

Do you mind? It's not very complimentary, eh?

Dennis Skinner1:39

Now, I mean it used to be a little old song, weren't it, when we were kids? I suppose they still know it, Sticks and Stones will break my bones, but calling never hurts me so.

Dennis Skinner1:46

No, I don't let that worry me.

Presenter1:48

Do your family mind?

Dennis Skinner1:49

No, I don't think so. I don't think uh anybody's uh there's been odd odd people written in on occasions and said that i i they don't like it because uh they think it's wrong and offensive.

Dennis Skinner2:00

But it doesn't matter.

Presenter2:01

What about your your mother? Has has she enjoyed the fact that her son grew up to make his mark on society?

Dennis Skinner2:07

Well, she actually did a thing on BBC television many years ago and she did a wonderful little interview in which she made it clear to the interviewer on that occasion that she'd got seven and two daughters and she treated them all alike. She was very good in that respect. I mean she had a very hard life and she used to have to take in washing as well in order to bring us up. She had three kids before she was twenty, you can imagine.

Presenter2:31

But she must have been very proud of you.

Dennis Skinner2:34

Yeah, I think they were. But I mean, you've got to bear in mind that uh all the family have been involved in politics of one kind or another, trade union activity, and as my father once said when he was asked, he said, We used to have politics for breakfast, dinner and tea.

Presenter2:46

And were you were you born, or were did you have even at that very young age? Did you have a thick skin? Did you not mind criticism then?

Dennis Skinner2:53

Oh no, very sensitive. I remember when I used to go to school they used to shout skin a bobber rabbit and run after me with a penknife and I used to think these big lads at about seven and eight and I was there about four I used to think they were going to uh cut me up. I used to run over the hills and eventually it became a very good cross country run and I think that's where it started.

Presenter3:09

That's where

Presenter3:10

But you don't run away now when people call you names.

Dennis Skinner3:12

No, I quickly got over that and learnt to stay put and uh

Dennis Skinner3:16

and fight.

Presenter3:17

And so are you today impervious to criticism, would you say?

Dennis Skinner3:20

No, no, I don't think there's anybody in politics that's impervious to criticism now.

Dennis Skinner3:25

Now there are a lot of sensitive old souls across there at the Palace of Varieties and I couldn't say that uh

Dennis Skinner3:31

things that they say about me uh

Dennis Skinner3:34

The things that say all the things they say about me I relish.

Presenter3:37

Let's have your first record. What is it?

Dennis Skinner3:39

My first record is uh about my mother. She used to sing all day long. However she managed it, God only knows. And she used to sing all the songs of that she'd learnt in her youth, and one that uh I heard so many times, If Those Lips Could Only Speak, If Those Eyes Could Only See by Peter Dozen.

Speaker 43:59

He stood in a beautiful mansion, surrounded by riches and poor. He gazed at a beautiful picture that hung in a frame of gold. It was a picture of a lady.

Speaker 44:21

So beautiful, young and fair To the beautiful life like Beethoven

Speaker 44:36

For those who

Speaker 44:38

Don't only speak.

Speaker 44:41

If those eyes could only

Speaker 44:45

If those beautiful gold and treasures were there in reality.

Presenter4:54

If These Lips Could Only Speak, sung by Peter Dawson, it'd take you back a bit.

Dennis Skinner4:58

Oh yeah.

Presenter4:59

Clay Cross, you were born, Dennis Skinner, and as you've put it in Who's Who, of good working class mining stock. You don't mention your father and mother at all in that entry, just put that way.

Dennis Skinner5:01

You know

Dennis Skinner5:11

Well, because when they realized that I was the Labour candidate for Boldsover, and they knew that it was a seat with a fairly big uh Labour majority, the people from Hoozoo sent me this uh form to fill in.

Dennis Skinner5:22

And it it got these very odd references at the bottom like heritage and breeding.

Dennis Skinner5:27

And I thought, what kind of questions are these? So I thought somebody's got to cock a snook at this lot. So I put good working class mining stock, and when the there was another entry said clubs, so I put Bestwood Working Men's, which was about a hundred yards from where I live, and seventy three Derbyshire Miners' Welfares.

Presenter5:44

Your dad was a miner, then?

Dennis Skinner5:45

Yeah, he'd been a miner and he was victimized after the strike, uh, like some of them still are after the eighty four strike.

Presenter5:52

He was victimized in the 1926

Dennis Skinner5:53

After the 26th strike, there was a lot of people that were victimized and kept out of the pits. And then when the war was sort of war.

Dennis Skinner6:01

Preparations were beginning in the late thirties. They suddenly wanted the miners back again and it didn't really matter whether they were militants or whatever they were, they wanted them all back. And so my father got back into the pits again in the mid thirties.

Presenter6:14

But he was sacked again, wasn't he, in the fifties, for being rude.

Dennis Skinner6:17

Uh he actually uh got involved with the manager uh who was like a father figure at the pit and he told him a few things uh which most of the miners believed to be true and he was the uh delegate to the union at the time and uh so he got sacked because he wouldn't apologize and the manager said you can keep your job if you apologize and he says no, he says uh

Dennis Skinner6:37

Yeah, it's like asking me to put my head in the oven.

Presenter6:40

So, in that sense you're your father's son, huh?

Dennis Skinner6:42

In that respect, uh I don't think there's any question. I actually followed him in the job not long after they elected me uh to his trade union position at the pit uh when I was in my very early twenties, and I'm absolutely certain that one of the factors was the fact that they were voting for Tony again.

Presenter6:58

You were saying earlier that you had politics for breakfast, dinner and tea in your household. What what sort of politics? How did you go on in your house?

Dennis Skinner7:05

My father, because he was uh kind of a shop steward at the pit, a miner's delegate, he used to talk about what what was happening during the day, and of course you pick things up. I mean here was the household which at various times had got six, seven and eight kids to feed and it was a hard existence. Although being in the countryside, as most miners live in the countryside, uh we were always able to get some food out of the fields and so on. But you heard about the politics really at the raw end.

Dennis Skinner7:31

And uh you always knew that you couldn't have certain things that other people could have.

Presenter7:35

Was it a religious family at all, yours?

Dennis Skinner7:38

No, although uh my two elder sisters went to chapel and they used to have uh what they call sitting up days at chapel and they used to have the best frocks on and they used to be paid on uh the never never like uh s working class families have to live and uh and I remember coming off, I'd been sliding down the pit tip and uh

Dennis Skinner7:55

And my backside was hanging out of my trousers, and uh I said to my mother, I said, Where's my two sisters gone? She said, You know where they've gone, they've gone to the sitting up at chapel. It was around about Whitsuntide, and they used to mark the star cards, and those with the most stars on for attendances used to get the best prizes. And uh so I thought, Well, I'll go and have a look at this chapel. I must have been about four or five and I went trotting off to this chapel, and when I got there, it looked like some I suppose it looked like St Paul's, when in reality it was a tiny little place, and these people were sort of uh hutching up on the seats, they didn't want this scruffy little lad at the side, and so I actually got escorted out of the chapel at four years of age.

Presenter8:29

So we have another record there.

Dennis Skinner8:31

Around that time I was beginning to see the films and so on and uh I remember Jolson uh in in his two major films and I used to sort of try and do impressions of Al Jolson later on and this one is an Al Jolson song, Rocker by Your Baby with a Dixon melody.

Speaker 48:49

Rock'em by your baby

Speaker 48:54

Without ditching melody When you croon

Speaker 49:02

Bruna Tune

Speaker 49:04

From the heart of Dixie

Speaker 49:09

Hang that cradle, Mammy My.

Speaker 49:14

Right on that mason diction line.

Speaker 49:19

And swing it from Virginia.

Speaker 49:24

Tennessee with all the soul ass in ya

Presenter9:29

Al Jolson singing Rockabye, Your Baby, with a Dixie melody. I thought it was Slim Whitman you used to do impersonation.

Dennis Skinner9:36

Yeah, I used to do them as well. Uh China Doll, Rosemary. And I used to have a very uh almost falsetto type voice until I was about twenty four or five.

Presenter9:45

Falsetta

Dennis Skinner9:46

Well, you know, I mean, it's uh it wa I don't think my voice had broken.

Dennis Skinner9:49

at that time, so are able to get to the high note.

Presenter9:52

Did you never do it for money, for your own personal gain, as it were?

Dennis Skinner9:55

Oh no, I don't see where

Dennis Skinner9:57

You know, I never sort of got to that point.

Presenter9:59

But you fancied yourself as a professional singer, didn't you?

Dennis Skinner10:02

I would have liked to have been one.

Presenter10:03

Okay.

Dennis Skinner10:04

Oh yeah.

Dennis Skinner10:05

Bram, then again, I would like to have been a top class marathon runner and I would like to have done one or two other things, but I think if I'd I w if somebody has said to me at that stage, here's your chance to sort of uh

Dennis Skinner10:16

To do it for real?

Dennis Skinner10:18

Oh yeah, I would have I would have jumped at it.

Presenter10:22

What did your parents want you to be?

Dennis Skinner10:24

Because I uh

Dennis Skinner10:26

passed the County Minors College when I was about ten. I think they felt that uh

Dennis Skinner10:30

Uh, I I would make it to university and I let them down. Uh, no no question about that. I think my father actually believed that uh

Speaker 110:35

I think we're fine.

Dennis Skinner10:38

that I was on my way. Because I'd had this early start in education. I went to school early. I'd got a pretty good memory and they used to have me stood in front of the class reciting poems as soon as they'd been written on the board and I used to do my times table backwards to show the other kids that it was easy. I mean in a way I've thought about it in later life and thought, you know, I was just being used.

Dennis Skinner11:00

But it it was all based upon having a decent memory and, as you know, passing exams should not be the only

Dennis Skinner11:05

method and system of intelligence. How would you score remembering things?

Presenter11:09

But you didn't think that at the age of sixteen when you gave the whole thing up and went down the pits instead, did you?

Dennis Skinner11:14

No, because by that time my mates who'd left school at fourteen were beginning to earn a living and uh

Dennis Skinner11:19

I just wanted to be with them. And at that time I was a very gregarious sort of person and uh I wanted to follow the crowd and

Presenter11:26

And you say that your your parents were very disappointed at that,'cause they'd have liked to have seen you go on. What about you? Have you lived to regret it? Do you wish you'd pursued a bit more education?

Dennis Skinner11:35

Oh, no, because I had a second chance in life.

Dennis Skinner11:37

When I got involved in the trade union.

Dennis Skinner11:40

and he started the courses at Sheffield University and later on to Ruskin College and so on.

Dennis Skinner11:45

I got in with a second chance.

Presenter11:47

But I thought at Ruskin um I read that you learnt more about tennis than about Marx.

Dennis Skinner11:51

Yes, I did actually. I mean, I'd played all these sports. I'd been a footballer, a cricketer, a runner and a road walker and all the rest of it. And I'd never played tennis. And I thought what a exciting form of pastime it is. And so, yes, I did read tennis.

Presenter12:04

Weren't you once the Derbyshire heel to toe long distance walker?

Dennis Skinner12:07

Yes, I had to go at that. As I say, I used to run marathons and then somebody said to me that uh road walking was easy to break into and there are only about two hundred in the country.

Presenter12:14

And they're only

Dennis Skinner12:16

So I thought, well, I'll have a crack at that, and I was built for the job.

Dennis Skinner12:19

And I got to I got up to about eight mile an hour.

Presenter12:22

Let's have your next record.

Dennis Skinner12:24

My next record is all about the countryside, all about walking and riding on my bike out there in a beautiful day. This is my lovely day. Bless the brother.

Speaker 412:36

This is our lovely day. This is the day I shall remember the day I am born.

Speaker 412:49

They can't take these away.

Speaker 412:56

Be always mine and the sun and the wine.

Presenter13:03

One

Speaker 413:03

It's got all

Presenter13:05

George Guattari singing This Is My Lovely Day from Bless the Bride.

Presenter13:10

So, Dennis Kinney, you quickly became an articulate member of the NUM, the youngest president of the Derbyshire Miners ever, I think, weren't you?

Dennis Skinner13:17

Yeah, round about nineteen sixty four, I believe. Yeah.

Presenter13:20

Now some say that if you hadn't gone into Parliament you'd have got Arthur Scargill's job. That's to say you'd have become President of the NUM. Do you think that's true?

Dennis Skinner13:29

I was on the what you would call in trade union terms on the rung of the ladder before him, but I came from a relatively minor area in terms of uh mining population. There weren't many pits in North Derbyshire, probably about twenty or thirty, uh whereas he came from Yorkshire and uh generally speaking it's it's been the large areas that have provided the President over the years.

Presenter13:52

I wonder if you'd have enjoyed it as much as your Westminster career.

Dennis Skinner13:57

Yes, I think I would have done, yeah. Uh but you see the miners decided in nineteen sixty nine that they wanted me to fight the election and to make sure that uh they uh maintained control of what was a traditional mining seat and I came from the pits and they asked me if I would stand.

Presenter14:13

Do you think that um you might have done Arthur Scargill's job better any better than he did?

Dennis Skinner14:18

No, not really. I actually think Arthur Scargill's had a lot of stick uh from people

Dennis Skinner14:23

Some who ought to know better from others who were just being uh mischievous because, I mean, let's face it, uh he he forecast all the pit closures as many of us did and uh what's happened is that uh they've done precisely that. MacGregor, Thatcher and all the rest of them have carried out what he said would happen. And the the let's face it, the strike wasn't about materialism. It wasn't about somebody saying, I want more money in my pocket. It was about men at sixty years of age or fifty odd years of age who were prepared to lose up to a year's wages and all the savings in order to to keep a job for some young lad down the road that they didn't even know.

Dennis Skinner14:59

I mean, that was a noble cause.

Presenter15:01

You gave all your salary to that, didn't you?

Dennis Skinner15:03

Yes, because I felt at the beginning, along with the full-time officials, that it would be wrong of me, since I was going to be one of the key participants, going round the country, raising money, keeping the strike as solid as we possibly could. I couldn't really sit on stand on platforms calling upon people to fight and to struggle and to eat grass if necessary if I weren't if I wasn't making a sacrifice myself. So I said at the outset that that's what I'd do.

Presenter15:27

You also ran around the Palace of Westminster, turning on all the lights, didn't you?

Dennis Skinner15:30

Yes, I mean I I was I was totally committed to the cause and uh I thought that if I kept turning the lights on every morning and uh I did do and then eventually well, I think one of the policemen found out what he was doing and he was uh switching them off again and then I got somebody else to switch them back on again. And uh no, I mean, if we had had during that strike three major power cuts

Dennis Skinner15:50

It would have been a different outcome, and if the Deputies' Union had joined with us

Dennis Skinner15:55

In those momentous weeks of July to October the miners would have won that strike. It was a close run thing.

Presenter16:03

You were saying just now that um you never put your name forward to be an MP. It was something that happened on your behalf, as it were. And in nineteen seventy you were elected. Where were you when you heard that you were the new member for Bolsover?

Dennis Skinner16:09

On your behalf.

Dennis Skinner16:15

Well, they counted the votes the following uh morning, uh, at that time. And then uh I went to the declaration and uh and so on and then the following day I uh I waited for the envelope to come from the House of Commons and nothing came and I thought, Well, I I wonder when you start work.

Dennis Skinner16:31

So when it got to Sunday and there were no letter came, I thought it's a funny business this is.

Dennis Skinner16:35

So I went back to the pit on the Monday and some of the lads says, We've voted you in, what you doing here? and I says, Well, as a matter of fact, I'm not sure when to start paying my wages.

Dennis Skinner16:44

Anyway, uh I found out, I rang another MP and he says, No, he says, They pay you from the moment the election is over.

Dennis Skinner16:50

So I was alright.

Presenter16:51

And you don't get a contract, you just turn up at the big house in Westminster.

Dennis Skinner16:54

That's one thing about Parliament that people ought to understand, that it's a club.

Dennis Skinner16:58

Mainly for men?

Dennis Skinner17:00

And uh you don't you're never asked to attend work. It's not like going to the pit. I mean when I use if you don't go to the pit you don't get paid.

Presenter17:07

I want to talk to you a little bit more about your views, which, as we know, are strong on the Houses of Parliament. But just going back to that moment when you were elected.

Presenter17:15

Wasn't there just a small part of you that was rather impressed, if not allwhelmed, by the idea of you going to Westminster?

Dennis Skinner17:23

No, my father says to me yer

Dennis Skinner17:25

He says to me, he says, It's just like going to the pit, lad.

Dennis Skinner17:28

He says, examine the working place, he says, and keep your eye on them that's down there.

Presenter17:33

Another record, number four, I think.

Dennis Skinner17:35

Uh the next record is uh I suppose it was the best song that was made during the strike and it was uh it was sung by Peggy Seagra and Ewan McColl. Uh Daddy, what did you do in the strike? And they donated all the funds from that record to the miners and the families.

Speaker 417:52

It was in the year of 84 shit really hit the fan When Mac the Knife McGregor Maggie Thatcher's Hatchet Man Said another 20 bits I'll have to close to meet the plan And we'll dump another 20,000 piners Daddy, were you with the first on the first?

Speaker 418:13

Did you tell the NCB to do its worst Or did you save your lely liver Sell the Union down the river A scam, a black leg one forever Cause

Speaker 118:18

Save your lever, sell the Union down the river.

Speaker 418:31

When Arthur Scargill heard the news, he cried this Yankee slob Is a gift from Cowboy Reagan and is here to steal our jobs Do an axe job on the union for the crummy fat jump But we'll show him what it means to be a fine up Daddy, did you man the pig

Presenter18:48

Daddy did you

Presenter18:50

Yeah.

Speaker 418:50

Yeah.

Presenter18:50

Peggy Seeger and Ewan McCall, Daddy, what did you do in the strike? Let's talk about your your tactics in the house then. The tactic you use is is one of attack and um I mean you can on occasions, as we've said, be downright rude. You've called people liars in the house, you've thrown things at them, you've called them worse than liars. I mean is that all part of the game? That's fair as far as you're concerned.

Dennis Skinner19:11

I don't think I've done any of those things that you've referred to in a premeditative fashion. I'm not sure about the throwing th thing.

Presenter19:17

Jeffrey Ripper.

Dennis Skinner19:18

Oh yeah, I mean it was uh it it it was all about the common market and the common market.

Presenter19:23

Well, you threw a couple of books at him.

Dennis Skinner19:24

And yeah, just a couple of both.

Presenter19:25

Sounds good.

Dennis Skinner19:25

And uh I don't think they actually reached him, but you know, the place it w oh, terrible, you know, I mean, this this is not allowed to happen. The books nearly reached our Geoffrey.

Presenter19:34

But is that you losing your cool or is that you just staging a demonstration for the mm.

Dennis Skinner19:39

No, no, no. I've never as I say, I've never sort of done anything uh in a premeditated fashion in terms of being thrown out.

Dennis Skinner19:46

None have sort of gone into the chamber and said, well, I'll uh

Dennis Skinner19:49

I'll get thrown out today. I've never

Presenter19:51

Never. But you but you also get very personal. You make quite personal remarks about people and in a party that doesn't believe in the cult of the personality. I mean, do you think that's the same thing?

Dennis Skinner19:58

Which of those? Personal remotes.

Presenter20:00

Well, I think you've called Colin Moynihan the miniature for sport and told him to stand up when he was already standing up.

Dennis Skinner20:03

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Dennis Skinner20:05

Now what I said was I said I call him Sabutio and uh I don't think it's personal at all. I mean he's trying to meddle with football, he doesn't know all that much about it. I mean let's face it, to bring in a bill that stops people going to football matches at the time when Britain's in an economic crisis and uh you know the world's turning upside down and what does Britain do? It tries it tries to stop people uh going to football matches with these passers.

Presenter20:30

No, I mean I ask you.

Presenter20:32

You always seem to be near a microphone. Have you got one of your own there or something?

Dennis Skinner20:36

No, as a matter of fact, they made a mistake because David Steele had one put in separately and it's right above my head. So there's two.

Dennis Skinner20:43

I mean, I I think the idea was that uh you know at the time when the SDP and the SLD and the party that dare not speak its name and all the rest of it, you know, they're all going to merge and they're going to take us over and they're all going to be one happy family, and um they were trying to take my seat. That's how it all began.

Dennis Skinner21:01

Uh Roy Jenkins of the Radicals came along and he thought he could take my corner seat and I said, Go on I said you've been trying to get your hands on that dispatch box ever since you came in the House of Commons and now you want my run of the mill seat, go on, you can't have it. He wanted to sit below David Steely's seat.

Presenter21:13

Oh, David

Presenter21:15

You also have complete disdain for all the traditions of the house. You've said already that you it's it's it's an elite club. Um but it's not just the state opening of parliament that you shun. It's all the systems, isn't it? It's the whip system, the pairing system that allows you to be absent if somebody from the Tory party is absent and so on. Why don't you like all those arrangements? I mean, that's how it works.

Dennis Skinner21:35

Well, I think the pairing system, if if it applied to the BBC and to the schools I mean, take for instance, if you were able to say to your gaffer.

Dennis Skinner21:44

whatever his name is, is it Marma Dilcosi?

Dennis Skinner21:46

I shan't be coming in three times next week, Marmaduke, because I'm paired with somebody at the ITV's, so we shall both be short of staff.

Dennis Skinner21:55

But we're going to be short together.

Dennis Skinner21:58

That's what happens with pairing. Pairing means that somebody from the Labour side or the ragtag and bobtails, you know, the minor parties, and the Tories get together in order to make sure that the 150 majority remains intact, so that if 100 people leave from the Tory side, they pair off with the hundred people from the other side, and the majority is still the same. Well, I ask you, I've not gone to Parliament to allow Tory MPs to trot off to ask it.

Presenter22:22

Let's have your next piece of music.

Dennis Skinner22:24

The next piece is uh one that I did used to sing uh by Frank Elaine and it uh it was about me at that time. I'm gonna live till I die.

Speaker 422:34

I'll be a devil till I'm an injury But until then

Speaker 422:41

Hello, you're gonna dance, gonna fly. I'll take a chance riding high.

Speaker 422:48

Before my numbers up, I'm gonna fill my cup I'm gonna live, live, live, live, live till I die.

Presenter22:58

Frankie Lane singing I'm Goin' to Live Till I Die. Well, you're not just in Parliament, um, Dennis Skinner, to make life difficult for others, whatever impression our conversation has given so far. You're there to what, to to fight for your class.

Dennis Skinner23:12

Yes, I mean that's uh that's the position that I hold. I mean I don't take the sort of old-fashioned parliamentary view that you're there to represent all your constituents at all times, because that's impossible.

Dennis Skinner23:22

I mean, I'll give you an example. For instance, if

Dennis Skinner23:25

somebody, um, say a landlord in the Bolsover area was refusing to put in a window for an old lady at seventy nine, then I would represent uh that old lady because she has a class interest. I mean, she may be a Tory voter and the landlord might be a Labour voter.

Dennis Skinner23:40

But you represent the class interest and and on nearly all occasions it's easy to define. There are sometimes complications, but most of the time you can see who the people are that they've been exploited.

Presenter23:53

But that makes you a a a good politician on the micro level, doesn't it? It makes you a good constituency MP. But it means that you will never operate on the wider level.

Dennis Skinner24:02

Well, that's not true either because because of uh the fact that I I've been involved in the in the party uh for many, many years years before I went to Parliament.

Dennis Skinner24:11

and the wider trade union movement, I've had been able to operate on the national level now for about uh nearly twenty years.

Dennis Skinner24:19

It doesn't mean to say that you've got to be a shadow cabinet minister or whatever in order to wield power.

Presenter24:24

Indeed not. I mean, the manner of your fight is is to attack, and that includes members of your own party like Neil Kinnock and Roy Hattersley and many others on the front bench who've attacked in have been your victims in their time. Would you accept that that those of you on the hard left

Presenter24:40

have decreased as it were.

Dennis Skinner24:40

Yeah.

Presenter24:42

Real left or right have decreased Labour's chances of beating Toryism in the last decade rather than increased them.

Dennis Skinner24:48

No, as I said at the Labour Party conference when I gave my Presidential address, that the Poles, when I took over as chair of the Labour Party, we were six points behind the Tories, and when I handed over the reins to my successor, we were thirteen points in front.

Presenter25:03

But that doesn't necessarily

Dennis Skinner25:05

You can do anything with statistics.

Presenter25:06

Well indeed. I mean it nevertheless is it remains the fact that the Labour Party has been beaten fairly decisively at the last three elections, doesn't it? And I think that Neil Kinnock would admit that a lot of that has been because of trouble in his own camp caused by people like you.

Dennis Skinner25:23

Uh no, I think it was largely because of the uh

Dennis Skinner25:26

the fact that uh during nineteen seventy eight seventy nine in particular

Dennis Skinner25:31

Um well, let's go back to seventy six when the IMF came in. That was a major disaster for the Labour Party and the Labour Government because of what they were really saying.

Dennis Skinner25:40

was that they couldn't control the finances and the economy themselves, and they had to bring in the brokers. And then they tried to take it out on the workers and imposed or tried to impose a five percent pay policy. And so I don't accept that we lost because of the left's activities at all.

Presenter25:55

But that was thirteen years ago, Mr. Smith.

Dennis Skinner25:57

I mean, since then. Yeah, and what I'm saying since then is that we then had the split with the people that were sort of fanatically common market, Jenkins, Shirley Poppins, and David Owen and all the rest of them. They went off and caused a major split. Now, I'm not saying that I wanted them to stay, but what I am saying is they were able then to provide for a temporary period a third force in British politics which appealed to some sections of the British electorate in which they were able to think they could actually get to power. It was like 10 years of wasted votes. So Mrs. Thatcher picking up about 42% of the poll.

Dennis Skinner26:34

was able to get these massive majorities.

Presenter26:36

So what would you say to those people who say, Mr. Skinner, that your brand of socialism is outmoded today?

Dennis Skinner26:43

Uh no, it's not outmoded because what I'm saying is the essence of socialism is still there. And you can't just sort of imagine that you can build this wonderful sort of nirvana in which you don't have to nobody has to struggle. We're engaged in a never ending battle. And where there's exploitation?

Dennis Skinner27:03

Under whatever government, somebody has to be there to fight it.

Presenter27:07

Let's have some more music.

Dennis Skinner27:09

And the next is uh

Dennis Skinner27:11

For John Ledden's Imagine, a beautiful song, and it reminds me of all the

Dennis Skinner27:17

Aldermaston marches, the peace marches, and all the rest.

Speaker 427:27

But I'm not the only

Speaker 427:33

I hope someday you join us

Presenter27:46

John Lennon singing Imagine

Presenter27:49

Will you Denniskina be attempting to escape from our island to come back and fight the good socialist fight?

Dennis Skinner27:56

Yeah, I think I'd get bored. I'd want to try and get away.

Presenter28:00

Do you have many friends, or are you a loner? Do you have any mates?

Dennis Skinner28:02

Yeah, I think y in my case, I think it happens to a lot of people. Uh you go through phases in which uh you want mates, like when I went down the pit, and uh and then I think you grow out of it, a lot of people, and certainly in my case, and I I like to be on my own.

Dennis Skinner28:18

And I like to sort of walk around uh I get away from the commons during the summer and the spring, etcetera, and I go down to Kew Gardens two or three times and walk down Rhododendron Valley and uh and to Richmond Park. I found a beautiful little place in there called uh

Dennis Skinner28:34

The Isabella Plantation few years back and Woodland Gardens in the middle, and it's beautiful.

Dennis Skinner28:39

And uh so I love to escape.

Presenter28:41

And what do you think about on occasions like that? Did you

Dennis Skinner28:44

Hmm.

Presenter28:45

Plot your political manoeuvres.

Dennis Skinner28:46

Sometimes, yeah.

Dennis Skinner28:48

I mean, it's a mixture. I mean, you're sort of walking in the park and you're enjoying you're looking at the beautiful magnolia trees and so on and and then you suddenly realise that it's going to be Prime Minister's question time and you're number three and you've got a bit of a chance. And so you've got to sharpen it up and try and be topical at the same time.

Presenter29:05

What's been your proudest achievement in your career, would you say? Um and were you given to boasting, which you're not? What would be the single moment you would pick out?

Dennis Skinner29:14

I can't bring myself to think that in an egotistical fashion I can point to anything in which I've had a major effect of one kind or another.

Dennis Skinner29:22

I like to think that I've been part of a movement which has enabled me to make a contribution.

Dennis Skinner29:27

I mean I I remember the march uh on the Industrial Relations Bill when the five dockers were in jail and we marched to Pentonville Jail and when we got to Pentonville Jail they're all sat on the walls of the jail and nobody could control this massive crowd and I came back to the House of Commons. I'd not been there long and I said I think those dockers will be out of jail I says by tomorrow and they looked at me some of my left-wing colleagues saying you know that I was the only MP had been on the march and they said don't be you know it's foolish

Dennis Skinner29:53

Well I knew there was a chemistry about that day and I knew somehow the the establishment would have to find ways and means and what they did they sent along some official solicitor in knee-length breeches and off he went and he sort of purged their contempt to get him out. It was a great day. I mean I I remember that when you're sort of on marches sometimes and it starts off with five thousand and it finishes with five thousand and yet this one grew as we went through the east end of London and round to Pentonville Jail and they were coming out of the terraced houses and joining. You know there's a kind of electricity there.

Dennis Skinner30:28

I remember that very well.

Presenter30:30

Record number seven.

Dennis Skinner30:32

And this is about somebody I suppose from Rags to Richards, Stevie Wonder. I just called to say I love you.

Speaker 430:38

I just call

Speaker 430:41

To say

Speaker 430:43

I love you.

Speaker 430:47

I just go.

Speaker 430:50

To say how much I care.

Speaker 430:55

I just called.

Speaker 430:58

To say

Speaker 431:00

I love you.

Speaker 431:04

And I mean it from the bottom.

Presenter31:09

Stevie Wonder, and I just called to say I love you.

Presenter31:13

Is it not an irony that the uh the beast of Bolsover, the rule breaker, the MP who refuses to accept the system, in reality loves Parliament and it's meat and drink to him?

Dennis Skinner31:24

Oh, no, I'm not carried away by thee, please.

Dennis Skinner31:27

If I did have power for a few weeks, I mean I would change it dramatically.

Presenter31:31

I'm not talking about it.

Dennis Skinner31:32

I'm not talking about I'm not putting forward the uh anarchistic view that you don't need a national forum. I actually believe you do.

Dennis Skinner31:39

But I think it would be entirely different from the one that we've got that's based upon the sort of uh Eaton Debating Society.

Presenter31:46

Isn't it another irony that you, Dennis Skinner, are actually part of the elite of the House of Commons, that people like you and there are very few of you I think Enoch Powell, John Biffin, Michael Foote one would name as people who have an instinctive and intellectual understanding of Parliament?

Dennis Skinner32:03

Well, that wasn't uh sort of a magical thing. I mean I actually went in there and I thought well the best thing to do, taking my father's advice, to examine the workplace thoroughly. And uh I I sort of sat in there for week after week after week listening to people and the more that I listened to some of the rubbish in the sort of middle middle of the evening, you know, I thought my confidence was beginning to grow. And of course I was learning the procedure as well, because it's a very quaint ki sort of procedure in the House of Commons.

Presenter32:31

And it's even said that that misses Thatcher admires your um your knowledge of parliamentary procedure anyway. Do you admire her skills at all?

Dennis Skinner32:39

Well, it's not so much the skills, although she's been effective in using skills in Parliament. Until fairly recently, I think she's beginning to fail a bit, as a matter of fact. But for a good number of years, she's been able to control that cabinet in a way that I don't think many other Prime Ministers have

Dennis Skinner32:58

Certainly my memory.

Presenter33:00

And now as we enter the nineteen nineties, you you've been in the house for nineteen and a half years. How long do you intend to stay there?

Dennis Skinner33:07

I shan't be doddering about uh when I'm an old man, you can rest assured about that, because uh I couldn't keep up the day-to-day activity, to be honest, and I believe that uh

Dennis Skinner33:18

You know, you c you can't talk about retirement at sixty five or thereafter for for everybody else and uh not engaging it yourself. And you see, because I don't pair and because I'm there every day, it would be totally unexplainable to be able to say to people in my seventy odd year,

Dennis Skinner33:34

that I don't go to Parliament as often as I used to do because I can't stay till two and three o'clock in the morning harrying the Tories keeping them up all night. And if I couldn't do that, then I would be denying everything that I've done in Parliament.

Presenter33:47

Let's have the last record.

Dennis Skinner33:49

I know most of the songs from all the sort of hit shows in the post war years, and a few from the pre-war years, as a matter of fact. And it would be nice to end with a woman singing, Barbara Streison, singing one of her songs from her Broadway album, If I Loved You from Carousel.

Speaker 134:07

Uh

Speaker 134:11

Birds wouldn't come in an easy way.

Speaker 134:19

Round in circles

Speaker 434:23

Hot go

Presenter34:29

Barbara Streisen singing If I Loved You from Carousel.

Presenter34:32

Now which of those eight records, Dennis Skinner, is more important to you than any of the others?

Dennis Skinner34:37

Iwan McColl singing What Did You Do in the Strike, Daddy?

Presenter34:41

The miners' strike of eighty-four.

Presenter34:43

And your book?

Dennis Skinner34:44

It would be Venny Greens.

Dennis Skinner34:46

Let's face the music. On on every page there are about twenty song titles.

Dennis Skinner34:51

And uh I shall remember the the words and uh so long as I'm on the island I shall be able to

Dennis Skinner34:58

Sing-along

Dennis Skinner34:59

and remember the old days.

Presenter35:01

And what about your luxury? What can we supply you with?

Dennis Skinner35:04

Oh, I don't think there's any doubt about that. I'd had a take a bike. And although I I realized that on a desert island I couldn't take my racer. There are now bikes, mountain type bikes, that you could use on a desert island. And so I'd get around the desert island on this on this bike.

Presenter35:21

Dennis Skinner, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Dennis Skinner35:25

Thank you.

Speaker 135:33

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.