Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty nine.

Speaker 30:11

And the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is a former Chancellor of the Exchequer. He held the office for six years, during which time he engineered fundamental changes in our system of taxation.

Presenter0:39

His position was described by his leader as unassailable, but only after he had taken the sudden decision to resign.

Presenter0:47

In one sense, his unexpected exit suited the man. He's never courted popularity, and has been described by admirers and critics alike as a loner, some one apart. They appear to be united about another aspect of his character, too. He has, they say, a formidable mind. He is, of course, Nigel

Presenter1:06

mister Lawson, you're so often described in fact, I think you've described yourself as a as a solitary person. I can only presume that being a castaway would suit you down to the ground.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson1:15

I don't think it's something that I would choose to be, but perhaps I could adapt to it more readily than some, yes.

Presenter1:20

What about the practical side, though, of life on the island? I can't quite imagine you hewing wood and shinning up trees.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson1:26

Now I'm not much of a handyman. I am pretty adaptable.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson1:29

But uh I I'm not matcher a handyman. I don't know whether I would manage or not, but it would be a challenge which might be fun for a time, but not for too long.

Presenter1:36

And you're not one to shirk challenges.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson1:38

No.

Presenter1:39

How far does that solitariness I was referring to run through your life? Obviously it exists and has existed professionally. What about socially? Are you a mixer in that sense?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson1:51

I used to be extremely social. When I was an undergraduate at Oxford I think I spent more time uh going to parties than anything else. But that was a phase in my life which really came to an end, and I felt that I outgrowed a bit and uh

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson2:04

I now find that sort of thing less productive use of time than uh being with my wife and children, or listening to music, or other things of a slightly more solitary nature, but I'm not a complete loner.

Presenter2:18

But it does seem reading about you that you are something of a Jekyll and Hyde, because um certainly to quote your wife, I mean, she she says that although you seem like a hard man to outward view at home,

Presenter2:29

You're a softy.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson2:31

Well, I don't know about that. I certainly have over time, and I think in politics particularly, you have to do it.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson2:38

created a a shell.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson2:41

And I can protect myself with my shell. I hope that doesn't mean that I'm in any way insensitive, but uh that protective shell I think is quite important.

Presenter2:50

But you are practical at home to go back to your wife. You apparently you make the morning tea.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson2:55

Yes, indeed, and I cook uh the little girl's breakfast.

Presenter2:58

Oh, so you can knock up a bit of food, no problem.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson3:01

Oh, I'm a good breakfast chef, yes. Uh there's no other meal of the day that I can cook, but anything with eggs or bacon I can manage.

Presenter3:09

And you mentioned just now music. What do you play when you want to go home and you've had a terrible day and you've had some of those you want to forget about everything? What do you put on the cassette player or the turntable and turn up very loudly?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson3:20

Well, it certainly has to be that, because, alas I don't play any musical instrument myself.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson3:26

If I really want to play something, to switch off to something to comfort the music is the greatest comfort. It has to be Mozart.

Presenter3:36

We better have your first record in that case.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson3:39

Yes, the I it's very difficult because really if I were on a desert island truly and had eight records, I think they would all be Mozart. Uh but I rationed myself to one uh on this occasion, and that's the clarinet quintet.

Presenter4:49

Part of Mozart's clarinet quintet in A major, Benny Goodman playing the clarinet with the Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Munsch.

Presenter4:58

It's a strong person, mister Lawson, who cares little about what others think of them, but you genuinely don't, do you?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson5:05

Generally speaking, I don't. I obviously care

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson5:08

a great deal about my wife's views, and there may be one or two other people whose views I particularly respect but on the whole I think I care less about other people's opinions than most people do.

Presenter5:18

Why do you think that is?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson5:19

I don't know. I was made that way and I've become that way and I've trained myself to be that way. You've trained yourself? I think so. Not consciously. Not consciously. But all these things are subconscious, aren't they? I mean, you you you learn from experience, but the same experience can teach different people different things.

Presenter5:36

Have you always been like that, though, to some extent? Were you like it as a boy at school?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson5:40

Yes, I think I was. I was not an only child, but I was an only son, and uh I didn't have ever a lot in common with my one sister, and I think I've always been like that.

Presenter5:54

You're a London boy, aren't you, born and bred?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson5:56

I was born in London, yes. I don't know about bred in London, because of course I was evacuated as a child to the south coast during the war and then had a very, very

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson6:05

Interrupted education being moved from pillar to post, different parts of the country.

Presenter6:10

Tell me about your family and their origins.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson6:13

Uh my mother's still alive, my father is now dead. They were a a fairly comfortably off middle class family. I remember before the war we uh had a cook and nanny and parlour maid, and so we were living in reasonable comfort. My father's father was a

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson6:29

who'd uh originally come from Latvia as a boy in the last century. My other grandparents were all born in this country. Uh he was a very bad businessman, lost all his money just as my father was about to go to university. So my father had to start from scratch and uh built up a business in the city of London, a good business, and he was a very highly respected

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson6:50

a tea merchant, and is still remembered to this day.

Presenter6:52

and wanted you to follow him very much.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson6:54

And as the only son he very much wanted me to follow him, and it was a great disappointment to him that I didn't do so. I think the moral of that is that any small business man should have more than one son.

Presenter7:06

Well, you might follow him yet into the city, that is.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson7:08

Oh, I've no idea whether I will, but uh it's certainly not his business, which uh has uh subsequently been absorbed elsewhere.

Presenter7:15

But it it was a Jewish family, as you say. Your grandfather came over from Latvia, and there was a change of name, wasn't there?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson7:21

Yes, there was. That was during the First World War. There was a a lot of uh hostility to German sounding names, and my grandfather was advised to change his name.

Presenter7:32

From what those

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson7:33

From Leibson to Lawson.

Presenter7:34

And was your home was it an Orthodox Jewish home?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson7:37

No, very very much not so. It was a it was a very relaxed and uh I suppose you would say assimilated home.

Presenter7:46

Shall we pause there and have your second record?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson7:49

My second record has a very personal

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson7:52

connection because my mother's aunt, my great aunt, was the pianist Myra Hess. And the first concerts I ever went to were the National Gallery concerts during the war, which are organized by Myra Hess.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson8:07

And she was a wonderful woman, a deep, melodious voice, a tremendous sense of humour.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson8:13

and a party piece which I remember impressing me greatly as a boy she could play the piano holding an orange in each hand.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson8:21

Anyhow, what I'd like her like to hear now is her playing her own arrangement of uh Bach's Jesus Joy of Man's Desiring.

Presenter9:16

Dame Myra Hess playing her own arrangement of Bach's Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, and I bet she didn't have the oranges in her hand in this place.

Presenter9:24

Um you went up to Oxford in in nineteen fifty one, a scholarship to Christchurch to read maths, but then you gave up maths, that is. Why?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson9:33

Well, the scholarship was in mathematics and uh I'd been a a specialist in mathematics.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson9:39

But I never felt that I was good enough to go to the very top and I certainly didn't want to be a professional mathematician for the rest of my life. I didn't know what I did want to be, but I didn't think I wanted to be that. And so I decided straight away, having got the scholarship, perhaps before I was found out, to switch to something else. And I switched to philosophy, politics and economics, largely because the basis of Oxford philosophy certainly at that time was very much logic.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson10:09

And the connection between logic and mathematics is the most intimate one, and so I made that switch.

Presenter10:14

But it wasn't all work, was it, Oxford? There was much play.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson10:17

There was a great deal of play, there was uh a great deal of socializing, a great deal of parties.

Presenter10:22

What did you look like then?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson10:24

Well, I was thin at least, certainly not stout. People don't believe that, but uh I looked perfectly respectable in those days.

Presenter10:31

Do you think you don't look respectable these days?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson10:33

Well, I think I'm overweight and uh that is a great fault. No, I I was uh obviously very much younger, but also reasonably slim.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson10:42

And uh I say I had a very good time. I

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson10:45

parties, skiing, fencing.

Presenter10:47

You were a champion skier when you.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson10:48

I was quite good at skiing, yes. I skied for the Oxford second six in the Varsity race.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson10:53

and uh fencing a certain amount uh at one time of poker, but then I gave that up.

Presenter10:59

All night poker sessions, I think.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:01

All night it was yes, all night poker sessions during the time I was doing it. I think that was just in my first year.

Presenter11:06

What sort of stakes did you play for?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:09

Probably higher than I could afford, but I just about managed to break even.

Presenter11:13

But would you say there is something of the gambler in you?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:16

I think there is although I don't gamble at all now.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:20

you know, I found that uh

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:22

When I got into the outside world that life was sufficient of a gamble, I didn't need to have any artificial form of gambling.

Presenter11:28

But you enjoy a little danger.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:31

Yes. But the point about gambling, and it's it's true with poker, is that uh if you're trying to win

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:37

You don't gamble foolishly. You calculate very carefully what the odds are before you take the risk. But what is certainly true

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:45

Is that if you are not prepared to take any risks at all?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:49

then in life you will never achieve anything.

Presenter11:52

So you've taken the risks.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:54

Yes.

Presenter11:55

Let's have your next piece of music.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson11:58

Well, the next piece really dates back to the year I went up to Oxford, in nineteen fifty one. The popular music on which I was brought up, really, was Noel Card and Cole Porter.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson12:10

And I've chosen a rather minor piece of Noel Coward because I say that really.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson12:15

brings back memories of 1951, the end of that dreary period of Labour government and austerity immediately after the war, when right at the end, in 1951, they had this extraordinary festival of Britain, which Noah Carl in this song sends up.

Speaker 212:35

Yeah.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson12:36

But please observe, we still preserve our sturdy hearts of oak. Although as servants of the state, we may have been coerced. As we've been told to celebrate, we'll celebrate or burst. The while we brag, our shoulders sagged beneath a heavy yoke. We all get terribly heated if it's treated as a joke. So.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson12:56

Don't make fun of the festival. Don't make fun of the fair. We downtrodden British must learn to be skittish and give an impression of devil make out.

Presenter13:03

Noel Card and don't make fun of the fair. You went into national service, going back to your life after university, you went in to do your national service. You were a junior officer in the Royal Navy and then you decided to go into the Foreign Office, didn't you?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson13:17

I th I thought that the Foreign Office would be an attractive career.

Presenter13:17

His

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson13:22

and I went in for the examination, and did very well in the written examination, but when it came to the interview they clearly thought that I wasn't the right type for the Foreign Office, and I was failed, and I think maybe they were right.

Presenter13:35

Perhaps they spotted that you were less than malleable.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson13:38

That could have been possible, yes.

Presenter13:40

Less than diplomatic.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson13:41

That could also have been possible. Some of my friends have told me that that that is so.

Presenter13:46

So you set, um, almost by default then, out upon your your first career into journalism, didn't you?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson13:52

Yes, having failed to get into the Foreign Office, I went to the Oxford University Appointments Board.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson13:57

And

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson13:59

They said, Well, the Financial Times is advertising for people and no previous experience is required.

Presenter14:06

But they required a first-class degree to turn

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson14:08

But they required a first or a second, and I had a first, yes.

Presenter14:11

And then you were headhunted and became city editor of the Sunday Telegraph. Did you feel then that you'd found your niche?

Presenter14:18

Fine.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson14:18

Yes, financial journalism I enjoyed tremendously. I think that it was a great boom period for financial journalism. The Financial Times was a tremendous school. It had or when I say post school, really a postgraduate course because you had a number of these bright graduates

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson14:36

who'd come down from Oxford, Andrew Shonfield, William Rhys Mogg, Samuel Britton, Jock Bruce Cardy, myself, just all of just weren't a large number, but we were all there together.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson14:48

Remember, I think we felt that we could uh make as good a cabinet as the cabinet at that time.

Presenter14:52

So did you sit there handing out advice to to Chancellors of the Exchequer?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson14:56

Oh, to a certain extent, yes, although I did that more when I went on to the next job that I had as a journalist, when the Sunday Telegraph first started.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson15:06

and I joined them as their city editor.

Presenter15:09

And in the end, perhaps the inevitable happened. You were offered a job close to the heart of power, weren't you?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson15:16

Well, I don't know whether it was inevitable. It came as a bolt from the blue. Oliver Poole, who I'd got to know through the Financial Times and who was deputy chairman of the Conservative Party at the time, asked me to see him, and he said to my surprise, the Prime Minister that's Harold Macmillan at the time, his speeches are getting very stale. They all sound like shopping lists with so many miles of motorway built and so many houses built and this or the other. We've got to do something about it. There's going to be a general election coming up soon. He needs somebody younger to help him with his speeches. Would you be prepared to join him?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson15:51

and I accepted.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson15:52

But then, of course, no sooner had I joined

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson15:56

the Conservative Party to do this, then Harold Millen

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson15:59

resigned. I don't think that was the reason why he resigned, but he did. And so I found myself working for Alec Hume.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson16:06

who is a wonderful man, an absolutely wonderful man, and I got to know him very well and to admire him immensely, and we worked and I worked for him.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson16:16

Very, very happily.

Presenter16:18

Let's leave you there for a moment and have your next record.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson16:22

But so far we haven't had any opera. And opera

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson16:25

Oh love.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson16:27

It wasn't an important part of my early life. I've come to love opera greatly.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson16:32

The best opera I think is Mozart, but we've had Mozart.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson16:35

So I would like to hear a little bit from Richard Strauss's Rosencavalier, that wonderful duet right at the end with those sublimely beautiful descending chords.

Speaker 216:55

Uh

Presenter17:47

Regine Crespin and Helen Donart singing part of the final act of Richard Strauss's Der Rosencavelier, with the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Presenter17:58

So there you were, mister Lawson, in in your very early thirties, working very closely with the then Prime Minister. Were your ideas often accepted? Did you have an influence?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:07

Oh, yes, sometimes. I think that, uh, I am perhaps

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:12

Responsible.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:14

for the existence of the public expenditure

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:18

white paper. It would have happened, I suppose, anyway. But at that until that time

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:24

Our public expenditure plans for the years ahead had never been

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:27

Published.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:29

And I said, unless we publish the plans for the years ahead and show exactly how uh they can be paid for, nobody will believe us. And that was the origin of the first published public expenditure white paper. And there were no doubt other things which I had a small input in. But I was a very, very

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:48

minor figure who just fortunately happened to be at the center of things and it was a mixture of the

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:55

of my admiration for Allie Hume.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson18:59

And the I think catching the political

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson19:03

Bug.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson19:04

in that way, that maybe we decide uh that maybe uh something that I'd never ever thought of before, never thought of at Oxford or any previous time, maybe I would want to go into politics on my own account.

Presenter19:14

Was it then also a a case of looking at those around you and not at the advisers who advised, but at the ministers who decided and thinking I could do that?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson19:24

I've heard that uh expression before.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson19:27

Maybe, yes.

Presenter19:28

So you set yourself the task of getting into the House of Commons, but by all accounts you refused to do it the hard way, to be blooded on so called safe Labour seats. You wanted

Presenter19:38

A safe Tory seat right from the start.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson19:40

Yes, I tried initially, unsuccessfully, to get selected for a safe Conservative seat. So after being rejected for a number of safe seats, I put myself down for a Labour seat, Slough, and was selected.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson19:54

and uh duly failed to win it at the

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson19:59

1970 general election.

Presenter20:01

However, in the interim in nineteen sixty six you were suddenly out of the blue, I think, offered the editorship of The Spectator, which was an offer you couldn't refuse.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson20:09

That's right. I think that any journalist likes to have a chance of editing a paper of his own.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson20:16

So when that offer was made to me by the then proprietor, Ian Gilmore,

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson20:21

I had no hesitation in accepting it, although it did defer my entry into politics, because it meant I was taking a further uh quite a you know, major job in journalism.

Presenter20:32

You were sacked, weren't you, eventually, by the spectator.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson20:35

Yes, Ian Gilmore, who had recruited me at uh during the time I was editor, sold the paper to another proprietor with whom I didn't really see eye to eye. And uh while I was away fighting the uh nineteen seventy election in Slough, he sent me a letter, I think it was actually on almost on polling day itself, saying he decided to dispense with my services.

Presenter20:58

So you lost Eaton's Lau, you lost the spectator, you're out of work, and we'll have some more music before we hear what happened.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson21:05

Yes, the next is the the famous and beautiful Nimrod variation from Elgar's Enigma variations.

Presenter22:13

Part of Elgar's Enigma variation number nine, Nimrod, played by the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Leonard Slatkin.

Presenter22:21

You eventually then got into Parliament, Mr Lawson, in 1974 and rose swiftly through the ranks. I think you were a whip and a treasury spokesman in opposition. And then after Mrs Thatcher came to power in 1979 you were financial secretary and then Secretary of State for Energy and thence to number eleven and the rest is history. It's been said that your whole career up to that point was almost a preparation for the office of Chancellor. Did you feel that? Do you feel that?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson22:51

I think that in one sense it was. I think I'd been

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson22:56

probably the closest Chancellor watcher for a longer period than almost anybody else. And I had developed my thinking.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:05

about how economic policy ought to be conducted.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:08

Pretty fully over a considerable period of time. And so that, although when I entered politics,

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:13

I was quite content to be a back bench Member of Parliament.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:17

The only if I'd had to name any political ambition at all.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:22

It would have been to have become Chancellor of the Exchequer. So I was extraordinarily fortunate to have been able to realize that ambition, indeed, to have.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:31

held the job longer than anybody since the First World War.

Presenter23:35

Since Lloyd George, I think.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:36

Since Lloyd George

Presenter23:37

It must, therefore, have been a huge sense of achievement on the day that you landed the job. Can you still recall that feeling?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:46

I was surprised when Margaret Hutcher asked me to

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:48

To be trust, I didn't expect her to.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson23:51

And of course I was immensely thrilled.

Presenter23:53

It must then be a source of huge sadness to you that uh that six, six and a half years, of which obviously you're very proud, um and the job which you genuinely coveted, should have ended in resignation.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson24:07

Yes, it was the most difficult decision, and the most hateful decision.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson24:12

I've uh ever had to take in my life. But uh

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson24:17

A

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson24:19

Events had taken a course.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson24:22

uh where I believed that there was nothing else that I could sensibly or honourably do.

Presenter24:26

You once quoted in a book that you wrote I think it's the only book you've ever written with Jock Bruce Gardine you wrote that uh resignation was a one edged weapon and the sharp edge points towards the resigner. Did you forget that last October?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson24:40

No, I don't think so. I I think it is the person who resigns uh who makes the sacrifice and if the person who resigns has further political ambitions which I never did have further political ambitions but if he has further political ambitions beyond Chancellor of the Exchequer then he's perhaps ill advised to take that step. Those that step is not going to further those ambitions. But as I say, a situation had arisen where I felt that there was no other

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson25:07

Uh honorable.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson25:09

Workable course.

Presenter25:11

But you knew when you went in that you had to lose because you were setting your will against the Prime Ministers and in the end in politics the person with the senior position has to win.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson25:21

Well, that is always likely to happen, as I say, that it was not the outcome which I sought. But there it is, and I don't have any wish to dwell on it now.

Presenter25:28

So now you're a backbencher again, a a a job of which you have very little experience, as we've said. I mean, the first couple of years, and from then you've held some kind of office. And a job

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson25:38

Yeah.

Presenter25:38

Would I be right in saying for which you have very little appetite?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson25:42

Oh, I don't know. I mean, it's a different thing, obviously, being a backbencher.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson25:46

after you've been a minister for over ten years, and it is being a backbencher.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson25:51

When you're a new boy in the House of Commons. So we will have to see how things develop.

Presenter25:56

But I'm sure the predicted offers and calls are pouring in, are they?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson26:00

Well, we shall have to see. As I say, I haven't made any plans. This was something which was not premeditated. Uh nor have I uh taken any decisions.

Presenter26:09

I'd like to talk a little bit more about your future in a moment, not least your political future, but let's pause there for your sixth record.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson26:17

Well Schubert

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson26:18

is by no means the greatest composer, and probably not absolutely in the first rank. But if you

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson26:25

want someone who wrote more tunes per square inch than any other composer, then I think

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson26:31

It's Schubert. And so I've chosen

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson26:34

part of his trout quintet.

Presenter27:31

Part of Schubert's quintet in A, The Trout, played by the Albenberg Quartet with pianist Elizabeth Leonskyer.

Presenter27:39

The burden of office, mister Lawson, however desirable, is, I'm sure, a very heavy one. Have you enjoyed a sense of relief in the past few weeks?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson27:46

Well, certainly I'm working less hard than I've worked uh for a very, very long time. The burden of office, particularly the burden of Chancellor, is enormous. It's a burden, incidentally, which I think is felt

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson27:58

in many senses more by

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:01

One's wife and children, then I think they s perhaps suffer rather more than.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:06

Whoever's actually doing the job.

Speaker 228:07

But anyhow.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:10

Oh, because you have very much less time uh to spend with them.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:14

And because they have to adapt to what is in many ways a rather artificial life, and they don't have the satisfaction of doing the job, but they do suffer from the

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:29

Demands

Presenter28:31

Hmm.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:31

that it imposes.

Presenter28:32

So what have you done as a family in the past few weeks that you haven't done for years?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:38

One of the things has been driving my daughter to school.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:42

every morning, which I couldn't do before, because I was having meetings at that time in the morning.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:48

Uh but there will be a great deal more when things are sorted out. It's it's been a bit of an upheaval, you see, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer lives in a tied cottage in Downing Street.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson28:57

So that when he uh resigns in my case, or departs for whatever reason, uh, he not only has lost his job, but he's lost his London home. So there's the great upheaval of moving and all that. Well, we found somewhere to live in London, but it isn't fully sorted out.

Presenter29:12

But has the whole experience of the past few weeks made you stop and wonder if you haven't had the balance of your life wrong?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson29:22

I have always been aware.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson29:24

That uh being a

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson29:27

Minister, particularly being a senior minister.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson29:29

is a rather artificial life, but on the other hand it's something which is not going to last for ever. It never does. And therefore I've always felt that the balance of my life would then be made up in perhaps in a more civilized way.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson29:44

after I had ceased to be a minister. But that was bound to come anyway. Uh I didn't expect it to come in the way it did, but it was bound to come at at some stage anyway.

Presenter29:53

So but you've made no resolutions to yourself that you won't um create an imbalance again?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson29:59

No, but I don't expect to.

Presenter30:02

Let's have your seventh record.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson30:04

Well, I mentioned earlier that uh the popular music that I was

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson30:08

brought up with, and which I adore, is is very noel card and cold porter.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson30:13

But when I married my wife Therese, who is quite a few years younger than I am, uh she introduced me to a whole lot of a whole new kind of popular music.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson30:21

including uh Dori Prethyn.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson30:24

And it's really because of her and for her that I'd like to have a hear a record of Dorry Previn singing Yada Yadda.

Speaker 230:33

Yada yada. Uh

Presenter30:34

Yada yada yada yada.

Presenter30:39

Yada yada, yada yada yada yada.

Presenter30:46

Let's stop talking, talking, talking, wasting precious time.

Presenter30:52

Just a lot of empty noise That isn't worth a dime.

Presenter30:58

Words of wonder, words of weather, should we sh

Speaker 331:02

Shouldn't we be together?

Presenter31:04

Dorrie Previn singing Yadda Yada. You'll undoubtedly be remembered, Mr Lawson, as the um the long serving Chancellor who severely wobbled the Thatcher Government. But what would you most like to be remembered for? Not that we're writing you off.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson31:18

No, and I hope I won't be re remembered for for wobbling the Thatcher.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson31:22

The government, I hope I will be remembered for

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson31:25

What I was able to do during my time is

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson31:28

As Chancellor, I think there are three things

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson31:31

which I would mention two of them I think which are beyond dispute, one which is highly controversial and any time will tell.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson31:39

Uh the two things are the tax reform.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson31:44

of the whole range of the tax system, personal taxation, income tax, and not least independent taxation for married women.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson31:54

So there's a who and a whole lot of other tax reforms. That's one thing. Second thing is the transformation of the public finances. The move from

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson32:04

Year after year of budget deficit to a budget surplus.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson32:08

And the third thing is to say which is controversial.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson32:12

is, I believe, the transformation of the British economy. I believe it is infinitely stronger now, fundamentally, than it's been for a very, very long time.

Presenter32:20

You implied just now that you didn't expect ministerial office again, but would you be prepared to serve under another Tory Prime Minister?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson32:29

Politicians don't uh

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson32:32

Answer hypothetical questions, as you know. So, and I certainly not going to answer.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson32:38

That one. And anyhow, I think that as I said in my resignation speech in the House of Commons, that I confidently expect the present Prime Minister to continue as leader of the Conservative Party and to lead the party to a fourth election victory.

Presenter32:55

But might you, perhaps, be prepared to change the assertion of the past uh few years and stand one day as Prime Minister yourself?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson33:03

No, as I say, I have no ambitions in that direction. I know people find it difficult to believe. Uh and of course

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson33:10

Uh i I suppose if everybody else dropped dead I would have to put myself forward. But I think it is so remote as to be uh something which can be excluded.

Presenter33:19

You will, though, be standing at the next election, I take it.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson33:21

I have no plans to stand down at the present time, no.

Presenter33:24

But it's fair to assume, therefore, that we haven't seen the last of the public face of Nigel.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson33:29

We'll have to see. Now, I think that in some shape or form you may be doomed to see my public face for a little while to come. But

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson33:39

I haven't made no plans and I'm not going to rush into anything.

Presenter33:43

In which case you better start sending up some smoke signals from your desert island so that you can come back and do something.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson33:50

That's right. Well, maybe that's where I'll be Prime Minister, Prime Minister of the Desert Island. There's unlikely to be much competition for that.

Presenter33:57

Let's have your last record.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson33:59

Well, I've always been interested in and considered very important patriotism in uh political life and in public life, and it is very important to my political credo.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson34:11

Patriotism is obviously associated musically with the national anthem.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson34:16

And I've chosen a slightly unusual version of that, one of uh Beethoven's variations on God Save the King.

Presenter35:21

One of Beethoven's seven variations on God Save the King, played by Alfred Brindle. Now, mister Lawson, you have to choose one of those records, the one which means most to you of the eight.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson35:34

I think probably of all those records, the one that means

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson35:38

Most to me.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson35:39

is the Elga.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson35:42

But uh the composer who means most to me is is Mozart, so that uh

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson35:47

I'd have a hard choice between one of those two.

Presenter35:49

But you have to make it.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson35:51

Well, I think then in homage to Mozart I will choose that.

Presenter35:54

Right. What about your book? Um, you've got the Bible and you've got the complete works of Shakespeare. What else would you like to take?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson36:00

Well, first of all, about the Bible. May I stipulate that it's the authorised version?

Presenter36:03

Hmm.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson36:04

And that's very important because the English of the authorised version is wonderful, whereas the English of the more modern versions I don't go for at all. As for a book, what I will want is something which I think I can walk round the island learning and declaiming.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson36:21

Uh so it has to be poetry.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson36:24

And I think I would choose the poems of John Donne.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson36:28

Because I think the love poems of John Donne are the finest.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson36:33

uh love poems in the English language.

Presenter36:37

And what about your luxury?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson36:40

I think if you will allow me.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson36:42

I will have a solar powered radio set.

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson36:46

To receive what? To receive some of the music of the many, many records which uh another piece of music which I failed to include among my eight.

Presenter36:56

So Prime Minister Lawson, as he's going to be on his desert island, will sit there listening to his music, declaiming his poetry, and thoroughly enjoying himself?

Rt. Hon. Nigel Lawson37:04

For a time. But I think it wouldn't be long before I tried to escape.

Presenter37:08

Nigel Lawson, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 337:20

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.