Michael Codron

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty nine.

Speaker 30:11

And the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Castaway this week is a theatrical producer. He's spent the last thirty years walking the tightrope between artistic merit and box office appeal. The critics have applauded his patronage of modern British playwrights like John Mortimer, Joe Orton, Tom Stoppard, and Alan Aykebourne. The coach parties have loved his taste for popular entertainment, such as Crown Matrimonial and his first great hit, There's a Girl in My Soup. He's produced about 120 plays, that's an average of four a year, and he's had his share of flops. But optimism always persuades him that the next first night will be a good one. He is Michael Codron.

Presenter1:05

Michael, that that string of writers, all of whom began with you, is so impressive Mortimer, Orton, Stoppard, Akebourne, Freine as well, I think. Is that good judgment, or there must be an element of luck?

Michael Codron1:17

Both, I think, really, and the fact that I've known them for such a long time we've grown up together.

Michael Codron1:23

And um I think what they write reflects my taste.

Presenter1:26

But they weren't always, of course, successful in the beginning, were they? Harold Pinter's The Birthday Party was a dreadful flop, wasn't it?

Michael Codron1:32

Um yes, but it's since become a a classic, hasn't it? I mean that was one of the misfortunes I think of trying a play out and having to rely on critics who perhaps weren't aware that this was a n a new talent.

Presenter1:48

But you lost money on it anyway.

Michael Codron1:49

Yes, indeed.

Presenter1:50

Well it ran for a week, I don't know.

Michael Codron1:51

It ran for a week, yes.

Presenter1:52

But then came the caretaker, which was a hit.

Michael Codron1:55

Yes, The Caretaker was was a very big success, but coincided as a matter of fact with the play that that I did, a musical, in fact, one of the few musicals that I've done, which was one of my big disasters. So it happened in the same week.

Presenter2:05

What was that then?

Michael Codron2:06

But it was rather inaccurately titled Uh The Golden Touch.

Michael Codron2:10

I wasn't.

Michael Codron2:12

And that rather put me off musicals. No, I don't think it's my taste.

Presenter2:16

Too much money, too much investment.

Michael Codron2:17

Yes, a a great deal of investment. Um I I mean I love musicals. My my training as a when I was a trainee producer was with a musical producer.

Michael Codron2:26

But I I seem to have found a a niche and um I enjoy doing it and it seems foolhardy to do it when other people like Cameron McIndosh do it so much better.

Presenter2:36

Well, I want to find out a lot more about what you do and how you do it, but let me just remind you of the rules of this particular production first, and that is that you're to be cast away with nothing but eight records, a wind-up gramophone, a few books and a luxury. Now, will you love it or hate it on our island?

Michael Codron2:52

I will absolutely love it.

Presenter2:54

Wife.

Michael Codron2:54

In fact, I'd like to set off tomorrow.

Michael Codron2:56

Uh because I think I am though I'm though I'm working in a very unreclusive profession, rather a recluse, as I think as you'll find.

Michael Codron3:04

And I think I would enjoy being there till I'm rescued or not.

Presenter3:08

And what about the music? How difficult was it to choose the eight?

Michael Codron3:11

It's something I've been wanting to do to be cast to another desert islands who for a long time, so like a lot of people, I've been amassing my eight records.

Presenter3:17

You've had the list in your pocket.

Michael Codron3:19

I've kept the list in my pocket, yes.

Presenter3:20

What's the first one on it?

Michael Codron3:21

Well the first one is um a rather sentimental and soppy one, but it reminds me of an extremely happy childhood I had and every Friday night my father, who came from the Mediterranean, used to play the mandolin to us and my mother used to sing, and I used to play the piano rather badly and we as a family gathered round and sang.

Michael Codron3:40

And my brother gave me quite recently a tape of Julio Inglazes, and it sounded like my father singing in the bath, like all our fathers singing in the bath, and I'd like to have a record from him, Emma Polo.

Speaker 43:50

I'm a full eye.

Speaker 43:54

In this simple eye

Speaker 43:59

Loséa stanning greta.

Speaker 44:03

Get email.

Speaker 44:08

I'm in my foot.

Speaker 44:12

I'm a roller.

Speaker 44:17

Come up.

Presenter4:21

Singing in the bath music from Julio Iglesias and Amapola. So Michael Codron, the the family business was completely unconnected with the theatre, I think.

Michael Codron4:30

Yes, my father was a textile merchant and um

Michael Codron4:34

Ran a successful business, which my brother now does.

Michael Codron4:37

and I proved myself to be catastrophic at it.

Michael Codron4:40

and through the introduction of a friend I got a job with um impresario Jack Hilton.

Presenter4:45

But you leap off. I mean, it was before that that the theatrical bug bit you.

Michael Codron4:49

Yes, it put me at Oxford, where the w we were a very competitive lot of people, all trying to.

Michael Codron4:55

find our niche in the theatre, but I did want to do the job I'm doing, and it didn't seem to me that there was a training for it, and that is why I was somewhat at a loss to know how to begin.

Presenter5:04

But who were all these um glitzy people you were at Oxford with?

Michael Codron5:08

I don't know if they were glitzy, but they were very talented. There was John Schlesinger and Brown Tesla, Tony Richardson, Bill Gaskell.

Michael Codron5:15

And a lot of the people who became famous actors weren't famous actors then.

Michael Codron5:20

That that was the extraordinary thing, but the directors and the writers

Michael Codron5:24

were showing their mark even then.

Presenter5:25

So tell me what you did there. This was the Oxford University Dramatic Society.

Michael Codron5:28

Yes, and the Experimental Theatre Club was a very formative um organization uh in in my finding out what I wanted to do, which was working with new playwrights. The OUDS was a little more traditional.

Michael Codron5:42

And so I used to run and organize and be bossy and all the things that I'm doing now.

Michael Codron5:46

And be a child impresario, I suppose.

Presenter5:48

But how did you know that was what you wanted to do?

Michael Codron5:50

I knew I didn't want to act or and I wasn't a good enough writer that I did a bit of writing, and I thought that if I'm going to fulfil myself in what I seem to enjoy, it had better be organizing people and bringing talented people together.

Presenter6:04

And what did your parents say when you said'I really don't want to come into the family business. I am going to do something in the theatre?

Michael Codron6:08

They were extremely supportive. My father was quite shocked at the beginning, and gave me a a a length of time in which to prove myself, and the fa first years were fairly uh blood spilling.

Michael Codron6:19

And when I did show that I could do it, they were constant supports.

Presenter6:24

Did he give you financial support?

Michael Codron6:26

He enabled me to get a a bank loan, which was the most important thing, and that started me off.

Presenter6:32

Right, we shall hear how you started off in a second, but let's have the second piece of music.

Michael Codron6:36

We were evacuated during the war and I came back to school to St Paul's, which was a very marvellous environment in those days when I was at Hammersmith.

Michael Codron6:47

And then I started to go to the theatre a lot and the ballet.

Michael Codron6:50

And I went to Saddlerswell's Theatre Ballet, which doesn't it exist now really, and saw a work which impressed me tremendously, which was um Assembly Ball to the music of Bizet. And I found later that Bizet had written this um symphony when he was seventeen, and it had never been performed until after his death in nineteen thirty five.

Michael Codron7:11

and Andre Howard made a ballet to it, and so did Balanchine and its Symphony and C.

Presenter8:17

Part of the last movement of Bizet's Symphony No. One in C played by the New York Philharmonic, conducted by Leonard Bernstein.

Presenter8:24

I think quite a lot of people, Michael, would find it hard to define exactly what a a a theatrical producer does. So where do you begin?

Michael Codron8:33

I think you had to begin with the script.

Michael Codron8:35

But it all begins with that.

Presenter8:36

When you look at the script, can you read it and and do you see it in your vision?

Michael Codron8:38

I don't think anybody can, really. That's the most difficult thing in the world, because sometimes a very good script turns out less good.

Michael Codron8:46

And often uh one of the m brilliant plays, when you read it hasn't uh seemed to be good, but uh has a magic that um transforms it.

Presenter8:54

And what helps to transform it, do you think it I mean the actors presumably?

Michael Codron8:58

Yes, the actors, the combination of team that you you get um working on a play. I mean Michael Franz said that putting on a play is like a traffic jam because it needs more than one person to make it happen.

Presenter9:07

Are you, in that sense, the policeman in the traffic jam, trying to conduct people through it? You're in the middle.

Michael Codron9:11

That's quite a nice image, yes.

Presenter9:13

With the big gloves on.

Presenter9:15

Telling them what it is.

Presenter9:17

How about you?

Presenter9:19

So you've chosen the script, and you've thought about the actors, and you've thought about the director. You have a a fair old say in all of that. You've got to find the money.

Michael Codron9:22

Yes

Michael Codron9:27

Yes, well that is the the besetting difficulty for a new producer, but I've been lucky because I've kept mine restas over these years and by now I've got a list of about two dozen I think and I call on them to put in units of uh of about five thousand each time.

Michael Codron9:44

And every year, of course, those units go up. It's no longer a a a little flutter. It's quite a large investment.

Presenter9:51

How many of them would you be calling on for any one player?

Michael Codron9:53

Oh, all of them. They all come in for every play.

Presenter9:56

So are they clamouring to come in? Do you have to turn them away from the corner?

Michael Codron9:59

Uh

Michael Codron10:00

Well, so I I don't have to turn them away, but I do try and keep the same ones, and if they stay with me, I stay with them.

Presenter10:07

And what about yourself? Do you put your own money in?

Michael Codron10:09

Yes, I put a little my own in.

Presenter10:10

But you're never in a position where you personally might lose your shirt on a play.

Michael Codron10:14

Well you never say never, Sue, because you don't know what's round the corner. Because you can't really capitalize for total disaster. If something were really worse than you ever imagined it, then you wouldn't have got yourself enough money. If you'd have to take it off as quickly as possible. So in that instance, yes, one would have to.

Presenter10:29

But these these backers are are called angels, aren't they? There must have been times in your early days when you were scouting around just begging people to put money into your hands.

Michael Codron10:37

I was just before I did There's a Girl in my Soup, which was regarded as a rather risky play.

Presenter10:43

What about the play itself? Do you ever attempt to influence it? Do you ever get the writer in and say, Look, I I think it's a terrific play, but I don't like the ending, or it's got a soggy bit in the middle?

Michael Codron10:53

Yes, I can do that. It's more difficult to do it with major playwrights that I'm working with at at the moment, but I I certainly did have a hand with Joe Orton when he was a a new playwright and

Michael Codron11:03

wrote I thought a dazzling uh first play entertaining Mr Sloane but the ending wasn't in keeping and I said wouldn't it be better if it ended without a death but with some rather bizarre joining of the two people to share Mr Sloane and that's how that came about.

Presenter11:19

So then it goes into rehearsal and you get the feeling as to whether it's going to come good or not. Um it may then go for a few weeks in the provinces, I think, before coming into London.

Michael Codron11:28

Yes, a lot of players do.

Presenter11:31

Lot of changes made then?

Michael Codron11:32

It can vary. You know, you you can't say it depends on the play.

Presenter11:36

So finally you you come into London and and you come to that first night. How important is the first night, do you think?

Michael Codron11:42

Well, I'm depressing news to tell you, but it is absolutely vital, and there's no way I think that we can get round it. I think what the critical reaction to a play is, or the kind of plays that I do, is all important.

Presenter11:54

But it's just as likely, isn't it, if you've had bad notices, that it's the cast, it's the whole ambiance of the thing that that can actually be pulled down, rather than than the people out there in the coach parties I referred to earlier. They're not going to say, Oh, Irving Wardle said it was terrible, we'd better not go.

Michael Codron12:11

No, they won't say that, but the coach parties aren't going to go.

Michael Codron12:15

to plays, unless a play has been on for some time, they're not likely to support it in its first months. They go to successes. So the the views of of the critics I think are important.

Presenter12:25

And if the play does go down the tubes, if the critics don't like it, do you then kiss goodbye to all that money for you?

Michael Codron12:27

Zip the cross.

Michael Codron12:30

But well it it can depend on how big a failure it is. If if you have a a disaster then yes, obviously you have to lose all your money.

Presenter12:37

It is a huge, risky business.

Michael Codron12:39

It is extremely risky business.

Presenter12:41

Is that why you love it?

Michael Codron12:41

Yes, I absolutely love it. It's my only form of gambling.

Presenter12:45

Let's have another record.

Michael Codron12:47

It's a a Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers number. Jerome Kern I've always thought was the most uh gifted of of those composers that were writing at that time. He was like the Mozart of his day, I think. And he wrote a score for Swing Time, which has got three wonderful numbers in it.

Michael Codron13:04

And I'd love to have pick yourself up because I think that would be a nice cheerful

Michael Codron13:09

Song to have on the desert island

Presenter13:41

The feat of Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers in Pick Yourself Up from the film Swing Time.

Presenter13:46

We left you actually, Michael, before all that production talk, um, dreaming of the theatre. It was Jack Hilton, the bandleader, I think, wasn't it, who gave you your first break?

Michael Codron13:54

Yes.

Presenter13:55

How did it happen?

Michael Codron13:57

Well, a cousin of mine knew him, and wrote a letter saying, I think this boy wants to go into show business. Would you please see him? I don't think he's suited for it. He has a perfectly good family business, and would you discourage him?

Michael Codron14:09

And Jack Elton, to his eternal credit, didn't.

Michael Codron14:12

I started to work in his office.

Presenter14:14

But you lied, didn't you, to get in there?

Michael Codron14:16

I said I knew more Italian than in fact I did, and I started by translating Wardrobe List, I think it was, for Ingrid Bergmann's Joan of Arc.

Presenter14:24

Now you worked as a kind of office boy for him, w doing contracts and watching the great impresario at work.

Michael Codron14:30

and going to see shows and reporting on them.

Presenter14:34

Hi his forte was of course musicals uh something which we were saying you you've hardly touched since. But you did do a revival of The Boyfriend, didn't you?

Michael Codron14:42

Yes, I did. In fact, I tried to persuade Jack Elton to do the original boyfriend when I was working for him. I knew Sandy Wilson well from again because he was part of the Oxford

Michael Codron14:54

Group

Michael Codron14:55

and he didn't do it, and and I was lucky in in persuading him then to do Salad Days.

Michael Codron15:00

which established really my position in the in the office, because I was just then the sort of rather larky office boy.

Michael Codron15:06

um established my position and gave me a regular job.

Presenter15:09

And by then I think you were you were twenty five years old, and and and very soon were determined to go it alone, weren't you?

Michael Codron15:15

Mm, I think too soon.

Presenter15:17

Why'd you say that?

Michael Codron15:18

Well, because all the decisions that you take when you're working for somebody else are totally different when you're the only person that you can look to to make the decisions. And things that you thought were easy when you were making them for somebody else turn out to be rather momentous ones.

Presenter15:32

So you discovered that you were perhaps a bit cocky?

Michael Codron15:35

Yes. I thought a little cocky and a little bit of the childhood producer.

Michael Codron15:39

and actors and agents realize that. And it wasn't until I started working with people of my own age

Michael Codron15:47

and putting on writers of my own age that I really found my own

Michael Codron15:50

Handwriting you feel like

Presenter15:52

Well, we'll hear about that handwriting and how successful it turned out to be in just a moment. But first of all, record number four, I think. What is it?

Michael Codron16:00

We're jumping a little now to nineteen seventy when I put on a play, which is almost my most favourite play, called The Philanthropist. It was a very happy time for me, because then it seemed that I had found my own way of doing things, and in The Philanthropist there was a character of a Don.

Michael Codron16:16

who s said that he was looking forward to settling into his middle age and dabbing his temples and listening to Baroque music with the lights down and the curtains drawn and clearing his mind completely of any thoughts. And I thought this is a very beautiful thing to contemplate. So I've chosen a Baroque piece which would remind me of Venice, which would be a far cry from the desert island.

Speaker 417:11

Yeah.

Michael Codron17:40

To be sitting in the most beautiful drawing room in Europe listening to that would be a lovely thing to recollect on the desert island.

Presenter17:46

Beautiful. It's part of Vivaldi's concerto for mandolin, strings and organ in C major, played by Takashi Oki with the Paul Kuntz Chamber Orchestra.

Presenter17:57

So, Michael, it was nineteen fifty five you had few contacts, no money, and a fancy for a play which your erstwhile employer, Jack Hilton, had turned down, I think Ring for Catty, it was called.

Michael Codron18:08

Yes, he didn't turn it down. He was going to do it for for years with with Richard Attenborough and eventually the option ran out and I said, Well, if you're not going to do it, can I do it please?

Presenter18:17

What happened?

Michael Codron18:18

Um it went on. It wasn't a great success. It didn't have Richard Attenborough in it. It had a very good actor called Patrick McGovern. And for some reason it was sold by the playwright to Sidney Box, who then sold it to Peter Rogers, and for some reasons I don't know, it suddenly became carry-on nurse, so we got our little percentage from it and it helped.

Michael Codron18:38

Somewhat.

Presenter18:39

So one medium failure under your belt. What happened next?

Michael Codron18:44

I then did a very conventional play with A. Matthews, and that didn't go either.

Michael Codron18:51

And I really thought, unless I come up with something, I will have to go back into business.

Michael Codron18:58

And I went to Cambridge and saw

Michael Codron19:00

A review written by Bambagascon.

Michael Codron19:03

And I was able to persuade my friends Kenneth Williams and Maggie Smith to be in it, and it turned out to be Shermai Lettis, and that turned the tide. And eventually I did get a play which had a very extraordinary title, Mr. Downloader's Downfall, where a man of forty had an affair with a girl of eighteen which was almost unthinkable in those days and didn't marry her.

Michael Codron19:24

And we change it into There's a Gullamai Soup.

Presenter19:27

But uh of course before all of that you had John Mortimer, I think one of his early plays, The Dock Brief, wasn't it? Yes. Um and and then there was Rattle of a Simple Man, there was Cockade, a l a lot of successes.

Michael Codron19:37

Hmm.

Presenter19:38

Were they plays that you personally liked? Is that the point?

Michael Codron19:40

Yes, they were all plays. I mean, I wouldn't do a play that I didn't like.

Michael Codron19:44

If a play fails and people don't come and see it, it it's really people saying, Well, they don't like your taste.

Presenter19:50

But it's quite a brave thing to do to put your taste on the front line.

Michael Codron19:54

But I think that's the only thing you've got to do if you're a producer.

Presenter19:56

Some one once accused you of being a man with impeccable taste, but a vulgar streak. Does that about sum it up?

Michael Codron20:02

No, I thought I said I had a a vulgar taste but an impeccable streak, isn't isn't that right?

Presenter20:06

That's what I think. I read, I have to tell you, that someone accused you of being.

Michael Codron20:06

That's what I think.

Michael Codron20:08

Mm-hmm.

Presenter20:11

A man with impeccable taste but a vulgar streak. And you said, though I'm a man with vulgar taste and an impeccable streak.

Michael Codron20:19

Dang that's nearer.

Michael Codron20:21

Surely the music shows that.

Presenter20:23

No, no, not at all. What's the fifth piece of it?

Michael Codron20:25

I did in nineteen eighty a Tom Sauber play called The Real Thing, in which I don't know if you saw it, but the opening scene was a man choosing his records for Desert Island discs.

Michael Codron20:35

And the curtain up music was Gershon's The Man I Love, but the extraordinary thing about it was that it was played by Percy Granger, whom one only thought of as the man who wrote um In a Country Garden.

Michael Codron20:46

And I got the music, which is very oddly written out, because Percy Granger has dedicated it to somebody, with instructions on how you play this, and it says the prominence of the top notes is facilitated by using stiff fingers, stiff wrists, and stiff arms.

Michael Codron21:02

And this is Percy Granger playing it.

Presenter22:05

Percy Granger playing Gershwin's The Man I Love.

Presenter22:08

So, Michael, nineteen sixty five, I think there's a girl in my soup, the big turning point. Um it was a smash hit here, and then subsequently on on Broadway. Can you remember how much it cost to put on?

Michael Codron22:20

I think something like eighty thousand.

Presenter22:22

Can you recall how much you made out of it?

Michael Codron22:26

I'd love to say millions, but I think it must have made about a million pounds because it was made into a very successful

Michael Codron22:32

A film with Peter Sellers and Goalie Horne.

Michael Codron22:35

And it was the first play, I think, that actually one could say yes, that made a million.

Presenter22:39

Um you've gone on producing, as we were saying, many of those same successful writers. Um did you have them contracted to you, as it were?

Michael Codron22:48

No, I d I never contract a a a playwright. I just hope that he comes back and says I like the way we did that. Can we do another one?

Presenter22:56

Wouldn't it be more sensible to have them contracted to you?

Michael Codron22:58

I don't think it works, Sue. I really don't. I think if a player wants to work with you, he will. If not, he'll go and work for another producer.

Presenter23:04

But there must have been times when you'd wished you'd signed up Alan Ackbourne for the rest of his life.

Michael Codron23:10

Alan Aykbourne is his own man and one could hardly sign up any any writer for their life. No, I think that would be an iniquitous thing to do. And I hope I will go on producing Alan Aykbourne for the rest of his life, and he mainly does give me his plays to do if they aren't done by the National Theatre.

Presenter23:25

I was going to say he gives some to the National. Have you minded that?

Michael Codron23:27

Have you mine?

Michael Codron23:28

I don't think one can mind if a playwright is sufficiently good, why shouldn't he be presented by the National?

Presenter23:34

Certainly, but then when you've helped Harold Pinter was the example we took over those early years, and then he goes off and wants Sir Peter Hall to produce his plays, that must hurt.

Michael Codron23:45

Yes, I did hurt when he said I've found somebody that I think will direct my plays, and he happens to be Sir Peter Hall.

Michael Codron23:50

It was just Peter Hall then, and uh it means putting the plays onto the RSC. That was indeed hurtful.

Presenter23:56

It's that kind of business, though, isn't it? Because in the end you're doing business with friends.

Michael Codron23:58

Disk

Michael Codron24:00

Yes, it is.

Presenter24:01

Do you get hurt a lot?

Michael Codron24:01

Yeah.

Michael Codron24:04

I think one has to expect to get hurt, yes. I less so now because one's able to take the the blows. But I think really

Michael Codron24:13

It would be difficult to find a producer that still had a heart.

Presenter24:17

But do you find in the end that because of the nature of the work you fall out with people?

Michael Codron24:22

all the time, but hopefully one falls back again. I mean putting on a play is a kind of joint love affair, really.

Michael Codron24:29

Do you hope that he's going to have a successful marriage?

Michael Codron24:32

But occasionally you will fall out, yes.

Presenter24:34

But uh things are more corporate in many ways these days, aren't they? Aren't they? There are there any Michael Codrons in the pipeline?

Michael Codron24:38

Yes.

Michael Codron24:43

I think there are, yes, there are some young Turks that are coming up and producing new work, and I think that is encouraging.

Michael Codron24:48

I mean, I think the West End is in a really potentially healthy state from that point of view.

Presenter24:53

But in the main it it it's becoming a less personal business than the way in which you've experienced it for the past thirty years.

Michael Codron24:59

No, I don't I don't agree. I think there are new producers who are sh who are going to put on plays that we find have their own handwriting, as it were.

Presenter25:08

Let's have your sixth piece of music.

Michael Codron25:10

We're talking about new producers and new playwrights and I I've chosen something which I came to very late and that is new music.

Michael Codron25:18

and it all seemed to be noise to me. But um at a certain point in my life I was very struck by

Michael Codron25:25

the music of Queen and because one's in this kind of business of producing things that are supposed to be magical I don't have a kind of magic.

Speaker 425:33

One dream, one soul

Speaker 425:36

One prize, one gold, one golden glass.

Speaker 425:43

Of what should be put together on shape?

Speaker 425:49

Oh life.

Speaker 425:51

God shows the way.

Speaker 425:55

No more man.

Speaker 425:58

Can win this day, it's a comeback

Presenter26:03

Cream and a kind of magic.

Presenter26:05

Every now and then, Michael, observers seek to inter the West End, don't they? They say that more theatres are dark than ever before. Rising costs mean that theatre land can't survive. Do you believe that could ever happen?

Michael Codron26:17

No, I think there are no such things as trends.

Michael Codron26:20

If we have a failure, then people say the West End is finished, if there's a big smash hit, isn't it all wonderful.

Michael Codron26:28

I think we're as good as our shows, and the shows at the moment are extremely good.

Presenter26:32

But how do you sell a a straight play, such as the ones you do, against a big musical like Miss Saigon, for example? I mean, you can't release an album, you can't take musical spots on television shows. How do you sell it?

Michael Codron26:44

Well, this may sound awfully old fashioned, but I don't believe you do. I think the play sells itself. Most people say to their friends, I've seen a marvellous play, and word of mouth is what keeps the show going. Very quickly the public get to know if it's something that they want to see.

Michael Codron27:00

And we did a consensus once with Noises Off, asked people how they came to see that play, which which had a very long run. And most people did say, either from reading about it in the Daily Telegraph or something like that, or looking for the classified advertisements, or that friends had told them.

Michael Codron27:16

and therefore they got friends together and went.

Presenter27:18

So you don't need a publicity budget.

Michael Codron27:20

Well, you do. I think you need something of a publicity budget. But it isn't my forty sous. I I really do think that there's something in the English character which rather resents things being over hyped. They think oh there must be something slightly amiss.

Michael Codron27:33

I do very firmly believe that the product does sell itself.

Presenter27:36

Let me ask you some superlatives. You you said that your um favorite play was The Philanthropist, but um

Presenter27:43

Who's your favourite writer?

Michael Codron27:45

I wouldn't say that.

Michael Codron27:46

I couldn't say that. No. I I'm very privileged to be working with all the writers that I'm working with at the moment. I think I must say that. The the Philadelphia is my is my favorite play because of the timing of it. At the time that it happened, everything seemed to be say easy.

Presenter27:47

But he couldn't say

Presenter28:00

And what's the biggest loss you've ever made?

Michael Codron28:03

I think the biggest loss I've ever made was on that musical. The one I did, The Golden Touch. Yes.

Presenter28:10

How much did you lose?

Michael Codron28:11

Oh well, in those days it was twenty thousand, but that would be the equivalent of um half a million now, I would have thought.

Presenter28:19

That must have hurt.

Michael Codron28:20

Yeah.

Presenter28:22

Terrible.

Michael Codron28:24

But one's still here.

Presenter28:25

Indeed.

Presenter28:26

What's the seventh record?

Michael Codron28:28

Well, hurt is a very good cure because at a point in my life when I was very hurt, I went to to hear this woman, Barbara Cook, whom I'd never heard of, sing before, and was amazed at the pure colourature of her voice.

Michael Codron28:41

And she was at the Albury Theatre, I think, giving a season then, and everything she sang seemed to me to be totally evocative to me and my predicament. I then took her album with me to Australia, where I was having the most wonderful time, because I think it was a splendid place, and I hope the desert island is like Australia.

Michael Codron29:00

And every song that she sang seemed to be a happy one. So it seems to me that she can cater for all moods, and I'd like a song from Barbara Cook.

Speaker 429:08

Sing a song with me to touch your heart.

Speaker 429:17

Sing a song with me.

Presenter29:38

Sing a Song with Me from Barbara Cook. It's a glamorous world to outward view that you inhabit, Michael. Do you go to the theatre every night?

Michael Codron29:47

Certainly not.

Michael Codron29:48

In fact, I try and ration it. I go about three times a week, I would have thought.

Presenter29:53

Have you seen every production in the West End?

Michael Codron29:55

No.

Michael Codron29:56

But please don't tell the other producers that.

Presenter29:59

Do walk out if you think it's terrible.

Michael Codron30:00

Isn't that awful? Yes, I do.

Presenter30:02

Very public thing for you to do.

Michael Codron30:03

I know it's an awful thing to do, but very often

Michael Codron30:06

you get to the point of the interval and dinner seems to be, you know, so inviting.

Presenter30:10

What's the most recent one you've walked out of?

Michael Codron30:11

Yeah.

Michael Codron30:13

I don't think I can remember which that one would be.

Presenter30:16

It's a very diplomatic answer, right?

Michael Codron30:16

Cause it's a very good thing.

Presenter30:18

I think you'll die of night starvation on this island, if nothing else, because there'll be absolutely nothing to amuse you by night.

Michael Codron30:25

Oh, I think there will be, because I shall have my luxury.

Presenter30:28

You'd better tell us what it is, I think.

Michael Codron30:30

Well, I think I would and I did mention that I was recluse, if I think I'd take something which has become almost as much a passion with me as the theatre, and that is a trunk load of jigsaws. That is what I'm I really find a tremendous comfort and a boon, and that would be my luxury.

Presenter30:44

to make a nice flat patch on the sand.

Michael Codron30:48

Listen to these records.

Presenter30:51

You must class yourself as a lucky man, Michael, to have had that conviction.

Presenter30:56

early on about what you wanted to do and to have been able to accomplish it quite so successfully. Do you think it's luck or do you think it's inspiration?

Michael Codron31:03

I don't think it is inspiration. No, Jerome Kern said that if you're waiting for inspiration to light on your shoulder and gently poke cobwebs from your brain, you'd better change your profession.

Michael Codron31:13

He said that you write about twenty tunes to get two good ones, and the waste paper basket yearns for the music.

Michael Codron31:19

And that I think is a pretty accurate summing up of

Michael Codron31:22

If you're in this business, what you've got to come to terms with.

Presenter31:26

Let's have your last piece of music.

Michael Codron31:27

Well I think on this island one would perhaps get a bit low, and I'd like a a song that I could go la la la to, and there is one song which actually has got la la la in it.

Michael Codron31:38

It's a marvellous thing of good Roberta Flagg, saying when you smile.

Michael Codron31:43

You smile, smile, smile.

Speaker 431:46

See

Speaker 431:48

Smile

Speaker 432:01

Da da da da.

Michael Codron32:09

I think it's impossible to listen to that without your spirits lifting. Don't you agree?

Presenter32:13

Absolutely. Roberta Flack and When You Smile. Is that your favorite thing?'Cause you have to choose one of these eight as the one that you really couldn't do without.

Michael Codron32:19

No, that wouldn't be the one. I think I would choose the Bizet.

Presenter32:22

Okay.

Michael Codron32:23

Well it has got four movements in it, as we so it will last longer.

Presenter32:26

Glass

Presenter32:27

What what about your book, Michael? Um you've got I'm sure you know this the complete works of Shakespeare and you've got the Bible. What else can we supply?

Michael Codron32:35

I was given a book recently by my friend my partner David.

Michael Codron32:39

Which um

Michael Codron32:41

was about Carolina Brunswick, the wife of George the Fourth.

Michael Codron32:45

And the book is

Michael Codron32:46

Called Caroline and Charlotte her daughter.

Michael Codron32:49

Alice and Plowden, I think I'd like to take that.

Presenter32:51

Why?

Michael Codron32:52

Well, because I'm rather obsessed by Carolina Brunswick. As if you came to my house you would see. She's sort of all over the place. I collect anything to do with her.

Michael Codron33:00

And it would be a very complete souvenir of of my hobby, if you like, my collection.

Michael Codron33:07

The history of Caroline was one of the last royal scandals. You know, she was the wife of George IV and was never really crowned queen.

Michael Codron33:15

and she came back to claim the crown, so all the commemorative pieces of her are within a year of eighteen twenty and eighteen twenty one.

Michael Codron33:22

And public opinion was for her at the beginning and then uh ag against her and she died.

Michael Codron33:27

When she wasn't allowed into the Abbey to be crowned, they banged the door in her face.

Presenter33:31

Perhaps you should commission a play about her.

Michael Codron33:33

Possible. It is possible.

Presenter33:36

Michael Codron, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your decision.

Michael Codron33:38

For letting us hear your desertion discs.

Presenter33:40

Thank you.

Speaker 333:48

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.