Katharine Hamnett

Katharine Hamnett0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Katharine Hamnett0:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen eighty nine.

Katharine Hamnett0:11

And the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My Castaway this week is one of Britain's most successful fashion designers. She started with a five hundred pound loan ten years ago, and now she runs a company with a ten million pound turnover. She it was, they say, who invented power dressing, but she's even better known for the crumpled look and baggy T shirts with political slogans. It all adds up to radical chic, a phrase which suits perfectly a woman who very successfully mixes politics with fashion. She is Catherine Hamlet.

Presenter1:00

Catherine, they've called you before now the loony lefty of the fashion world. Do you do you object to that term?

Katharine Hamnett1:05

And rubbish.

Presenter1:06

Shh.

Katharine Hamnett1:06

Yeah.

Presenter1:07

What are you, then? How would you define yourself?

Katharine Hamnett1:09

Well, I'm apolitical, really. I mean, I don't have much faith in any politicians. I suppose if I belong to any party, it would be the party of common sense.

Katharine Hamnett1:17

But you care about politics, you care about what's happening around you very much.

Katharine Hamnett1:22

I think when you have kids you do care. I mean you can't help it because you see them to be so under threat from everything. I mean I hardly dare open the newspapers these days.

Presenter1:31

Well, I want to talk more about your politics and indeed your fashion in a minute, but tell me first of all about the idea of being cast away on a desert island. Do do you fancy it?

Katharine Hamnett1:40

Well, yes and no. I mean, I quite like a lot of time to myself, but sometimes you can be really desperate, desperate for company.

Katharine Hamnett1:48

I didn't I didn't know if I could survive, I'd have to have a lot of toys with me.

Presenter1:51

But you're quite a self sufficient lady, aren't you? I mean, uh you would be able to take care of yourself.

Katharine Hamnett1:56

Oh, I'd survive fine. You know, I'm the world's most practical person. But I do think I'd miss my friends.

Presenter2:02

What about the music? What are you going to take with you?

Katharine Hamnett2:05

Well, uh first record, I'm a pop music addict, naturally, and um I'm also a potato peeler dancer, like I like to dance when I'm cooking in the kitchen. And um I love this record. It's Rise to the Occasion, The Hip Hop Remix by Clammy Fisher.

Katharine Hamnett2:24

I'm looking for

Speaker 12:25

Uh so what you

Speaker 12:29

Someone I know I can count on

Speaker 12:34

So won't you rise to the moon?

Presenter2:38

Region

Speaker 12:38

Uh

Presenter2:38

Uh

Presenter2:39

Have it too!

Presenter2:42

What's the division?

Presenter2:47

I am a patient.

Presenter2:50

Say to heart.

Presenter2:53

Klein efficiency

Presenter2:54

Um all this talk of radicalism, Catherine, um but you're the product of of really quite a sort of upmarket family and education, aren't you?

Katharine Hamnett3:03

What did what did your parents do?

Katharine Hamnett3:05

Um my father was in the Air Force and when I was five he was posted to Paris and then when I was eight he was posted to uh Bucharest. He was the defence attache for Romania and Bulgaria. And then he came back to London, he worked in the Cabinet Office and then um

Katharine Hamnett3:26

He went to Scandinavia as the Defence Settle for Scandinavia. So it was really interesting. I mean, he was involved. He was in Whitehall and he was going to the Pentagon during the Bear Pigs. And he used to say to me, You don't know how close it got. I mean, he couldn't talk. I mean, I think the tragedy with those guys is that they signed the Official Secrets Act, and so they can't even talk to their wives about, you know, what was going on. When we lived in Romania, if we ever wanted to have a conversation, we used to be followed by two cars of secret police wherever we went, even if we went to the golf club, which is like the recreation centre for all the diplomats. And there used to be secret police wandering round the golf course. We used to have a guy up from the Home Office every six months to dig the microphones out of the walls. And they'd never make good. They used to just leave these wires trailing. And I was a

Speaker 13:52

Uh

Katharine Hamnett4:16

Boarding school went you know, when they went to Romania'cause there weren't any schools, they used to come out and like the place would just be wrecked. And if ever you wanted to have a conversation, like if you're worried about something or, you know, you've seen a servant listening at a door, you used to have to go into the bathroom, run the bath and pull the flash in the toilet.

Presenter4:34

Let's go.

Presenter4:36

So it was a beep.

Katharine Hamnett4:36

Strange upbringing, although a very privileged one. You were like on the edge of all those political situations and you got to see the guys who used to live opposite the President's palace in Bucharest. And he died two weeks before they announced it. Because we used to see him like every day and then for two weeks the curtains were drawn and then they announced it and you kind of got used to the way that politics is operated.

Presenter5:00

But all of that meant, presumably, that your education was really very erratic. Yeah, I went to ten schools. Ten.

Presenter5:07

Including Cheltenham Ladies' College. What was that like?

Katharine Hamnett5:10

But it was pretty miserable. I mean they're so regimented. I think that probably actually inspired me to become a fashion designer because we had to get all our uniforms, you know, I mean they were standard sizes and I'm really tall and so I could never look good because the sleeves were always two inches too short. And we used to have to wear hats and these old ladies would report to you for not wearing a hat. And then you wouldn't be allowed to use your bicycle for three weeks.

Presenter5:33

I'm going to stop you there, and I'm going to ask you for a second record.

Katharine Hamnett5:36

This is the first record that my mother ever gave me and it's called Why Does Everybody Call Me Bighead by Max Poigraves.

Speaker 15:44

I don't know how I got the name of BIN!

Katharine Hamnett5:48

Yeah.

Speaker 15:49

Yeah.

Speaker 15:50

It's a puzzle that I never could define.

Speaker 15:56

Cost nearly all the folks who call

Katharine Hamnett5:59

Yeah.

Speaker 16:00

Yeah.

Speaker 26:00

Maybe.

Speaker 16:01

Uh

Speaker 16:02

Uh

Katharine Hamnett6:02

If God's bigger is than mine, than mine much bigger is than mine.

Presenter6:12

I

Presenter6:17

Here who left this horse in my hand? Big Ed by Max Bygraves.

Presenter6:22

What did your parents want you to be, Catherine?

Presenter6:25

Um self-support

Katharine Hamnett6:25

Sporting, I think, was the operative word.

Presenter6:28

But they didn't mind her.

Katharine Hamnett6:30

Well, I wanted to be a film director when I was at school and they just said, Oh no, there aren't any women film d film directors, you can't do that.

Presenter6:37

But the requirement was that you should be a success.

Katharine Hamnett6:40

the society that I had lived in.

Katharine Hamnett6:43

had been very much um people wanting to be rich and famous and that's all that I knew and when I left school I just thought oh yes I'm going to be richer and famous then

Katharine Hamnett6:52

all of them put together

Presenter6:54

So money came into it. I mean

Katharine Hamnett6:55

Oh yes, I was totally I mean the material child.

Presenter6:59

How did you then come to choose fashion?

Katharine Hamnett7:01

Well, I mean, the story I tell, which is ninety percent true, is that I've put a pin

Katharine Hamnett7:08

in the careers book and it it came up fashion but in actual fact we've been opening the pages and

Katharine Hamnett7:14

You know, that book had been opened quite a few times.

Presenter7:18

So there it was, fashion designer and how to go about it. Uh what did you do? What was the first move?

Katharine Hamnett7:24

Well, I f tried to find out how to do it and one of the ways of doing it was becoming a petite me in Paris, which I thought would be bad. I can get away from my parents, live in Paris and pick up pins for somebody,'cause this was the way that the French commercial designers, probably not the big stars, would start. It was the traditional method of learning couture. But then I had a friend um who was going to go to Saint Martin's and she said, Oh, why don't you come to Saint Martin's? Art College.

Presenter7:49

Art College

Katharine Hamnett7:50

Yup. And I thought, well, whoopi.

Katharine Hamnett7:52

And then I came to Saint Martin's.

Presenter7:54

Had you always cared about clothes, had you always cared about what you looked like?

Katharine Hamnett7:58

Well, yes, I think school uniform certainly makes you do that because there you are stuck in your school uniform and everybody else is looking glamorous and you know you look like a dog. And I think, you know, that's very repressive on your self expression. It makes you desperate to show what you are because like clothes are who you are. You are what you wear, really. You are what you have.

Presenter8:18

You had very little when you came out of art school, but you set up in business with a friend, didn't you?

Katharine Hamnett8:23

When I was in art school, because I was, you know, the sort of the middle class trap where you get a pretty puny grant and your parents say, Right, you've got to learn to live on that. And so I was working freelance when I was at college and I tried working for a couple of people in Great Portland Street, but it was let's have dinner first. I thought I was this great genius, so I was very insulted. And um then you don't get paid, it's very difficult to get paid when you start off. I mean it's you know, people just do take advantage. And so we set up business and it went really well. I think within four years we were getting

Katharine Hamnett8:55

Four pages in Vogue and issue. What were you making? Um well we started off with scarves and then we went into leather and then we went into sportswear.

Presenter8:57

But we

Katharine Hamnett9:03

But um through a variety of circumstances, not particularly to do with the product, but to do with like giving away shares and being like real babies, um the whole thing folded.

Presenter9:14

You were not a good businesswoman.

Katharine Hamnett9:16

No, absolutely. I think um

Katharine Hamnett9:19

You know, there should be more management training in schools because it is great to be self-employed and boy have I made every stake mistake in the book so far. So I'd only be halfway through.

Presenter9:29

Let's have your third record.

Katharine Hamnett9:31

Um this is The Trail of the Lonesome Pine by Lorelin Hardy.

Presenter9:37

Why do you want that?

Katharine Hamnett9:38

Oh, it just makes me laugh.

Presenter9:42

In the blue-rich mountains of Virginia, on the trail of the lonesome pine In the blue-rich mountains of Virginia, on the trail of the lonesome pine, in the pale moonshine, our hearts entwine, where she carved her name and I carved mine.

Presenter10:11

The Trail of the Lonesome Pine by Laurel and Hardy. Catherine, you were saying just now you are what you wear. What do you mean? That that as whatever we put on in the morning means this is the sort of person we are.

Katharine Hamnett10:23

Well, it's the kind of person you want other people to think you are, and probably yourself as well. I think it's you zack yourself into it and you become what you're wearing.

Presenter10:31

How do you set about designing something new? I mean, we're all wearing things in one season and you've got to think one, if not two, seasons ahead. H do you do that from within or without?

Katharine Hamnett10:42

You can just do it by really looking at people and thinking, well, if they're wearing this now, what are they going to be wanting to wear in a year's time? Because it'll either be a development or a reaction. And it's up to you to choose. And therein lies the guillotine.

Presenter11:00

It just worries me all of this psychology, because if in the end you've got everybody dressing in um crumpled clothes, unironed, creased linen and silk

Presenter11:10

That's twice too big for them.

Presenter11:12

What does that say about us?

Katharine Hamnett11:14

Um, I think that was about eighty three we were doing that. It was like a happy, carefree, confident time. I mean, it was before the crash, wasn't it? And up to the crash, people are wearing more and more serious clothes because they realize that times you've got to spend the time earning because it's the man with a crumpled shirt who isn't going to get the job.

Presenter11:33

Do you think misses Thatcher had a large influence on fashion?

Katharine Hamnett11:36

Uh no, not at all. I do think, though, for a women politician, she's actually quite well dressed now at last.

Presenter11:43

But also uh she was a a woman who rose to the top top job in the land, uh and people admired her whether they agreed with her politics or not.

Katharine Hamnett11:50

But not even her politics.

Presenter11:52

No, but but but therefore people perhaps be began to want to wear smart suits and to look powerful.

Katharine Hamnett12:00

Well, I think that formality in clothing is power.

Katharine Hamnett12:04

you know, formality in behavior is also power. And I think this very um

Katharine Hamnett12:09

Conventional clothes are to do with like old money and old power, and people want to look like they belong to that.

Presenter12:15

But, nevertheless, you do think misses Thatcher is well dressed.

Katharine Hamnett12:18

Well, she's not badly dressed for a female politician.

Katharine Hamnett12:24

Your next record, please.

Katharine Hamnett12:26

Um I think are we gonna have um

Katharine Hamnett12:30

You can't always get what you want by the Rolling Stones.

Katharine Hamnett12:37

Always get what you want.

Katharine Hamnett12:41

You can't always get what you want.

Katharine Hamnett12:47

You can't always get what you want.

Katharine Hamnett12:53

But if you try sometimes

Katharine Hamnett12:56

Oh you my friend You get what you need

Presenter13:06

You can't always get what you want from the Rolling Stones. Um we were talking about misses Thatcher, Catherine. Um you met her once, didn't you? You went to Downing Street, which was quite an occasion.

Katharine Hamnett13:17

Well, I didn't actually want to go. I got the invitation, I was amazed, and I just thought, well.

Katharine Hamnett13:23

I didn't approve of the Falklands War at all. I thought it was a completely unnecessary piece of obscenity, obscenity, and I didn't think that we could afford it. The country's looking pretty bankrupt at the time, and I just thought all those lives lost, but there was a perfect media opportunity. And so I did the T-shirt and slid it under about five other layers. Went this T-shirt with 58% don't want Pershing written on it because I was very I mean, I just was very upset about the what I thought was the undemocratic deployment of cruise and Pershing missiles in Europe. I mean nobody was asked, they were just there.

Katharine Hamnett14:02

And so anyway I went along. And she's very charming. I mean

Katharine Hamnett14:06

She's so charming, I'd had to sneak in. I thought I was going to be thrown out, so I got a jacket over the T shirt, but I knew that it there'd be a lot of press there, and it would be a good thing that got out, because it did look to me as if the voice of dissent was being increasingly more and more suppressed, although in fact it was the voice of the majority.

Presenter14:23

So you were seizing, as they say, a photo opportunity.

Katharine Hamnett14:25

Yes, exactly. And while I went up, and she's very charming, I mean, as.

Presenter14:27

I found

Katharine Hamnett14:30

You know, I've been the perfect political PR. She's, you, I actually liked her as I was shaking her hand, and I was feeling.

Katharine Hamnett14:38

almost sorry for her about what was about to happen, that she was going to be photographed with me wearing this T shirt, which made her look an idiot. Anyway, so I shook her hand and she smiled and said, Oh, at last, a true original And I thought, If only you knew and then I flushed the

Katharine Hamnett14:54

a jacket at all the press photographers and they went crazy and it went everywhere. I didn't realize that it was going to be so used.

Katharine Hamnett15:02

It was the most used photograph of UPI that year, apparently.

Presenter15:05

And how did you feel afterwards? Did you feel

Katharine Hamnett15:08

Hey, care.

Presenter15:09

Couldn't you feel

Katharine Hamnett15:09

You're cheated.

Presenter15:10

Yeah.

Katharine Hamnett15:10

Yeah.

Katharine Hamnett15:12

No, I didn't. I thought that um I'd actually used an opportunity that I'd have kicked myself out of my life if I hadn't. I knew that I'm probably never likely to be in the same room as her again because she's too terrified that I'd do a repeat performance. In fact, the next government reception for the fashion industry, they have one every season, I got this message, like suddenly my invitation hadn't arrived.

Katharine Hamnett15:37

And so my peer rang

Katharine Hamnett15:39

up to find out what was happening then I had this

Katharine Hamnett15:42

A woman on the telephone saying, um, well the messages, no messages please.

Katharine Hamnett15:48

And so I thought, well, this is ridiculous. They're telling fashion designers to that they're not allowed to wear what they like to a reception that is in honor of their industry, which I suppose Tutor I was supporting um wildly and probably a sort of fairly

Katharine Hamnett16:04

leading member of

Katharine Hamnett16:06

But anyway, so I didn't worry more'cause I thought it's an old joke.

Presenter16:09

But you you invented, Catherine Hamlet, didn't you? You invented

Presenter16:13

The slogan on the T-shirt, which has been copied by everybody.

Presenter16:17

Uh

Katharine Hamnett16:17

Well yes.

Presenter16:18

Uh

Katharine Hamnett16:18

Uh

Katharine Hamnett16:19

Got it.

Presenter16:19

Uh Does that bore you?

Katharine Hamnett16:20

No, I they were actually designed to be copied those T-shirts'cause we were getting so copied everywhere in the world at the time. I mean you can't believe it until you travel.

Katharine Hamnett16:29

And everything I did was going to the shops, and people were just jumping on it, not even

Katharine Hamnett16:34

making up any decision about it, just buying it and copying it. So I thought, it would be what would be great if it was copied?'Cause I was actually g you know, you get upset because somebody will make it in a slave labor factory and it'll be in the shops at half the price of yours and

Katharine Hamnett16:49

Then yours won't sell. So they basically do take the bread out of your mouth, copiers.

Katharine Hamnett16:53

But I thought what would be good if it was copied? You know, what would be actually a really wonderful thing if it was copied? And I thought, well, the greatest thing would be is if you had all these ecological T-shirts.

Presenter17:05

Anti-nuclear.

Katharine Hamnett17:06

Anti-nuclear, ecological. We did, you know, preserve the rainforest. We did it in Portuguese and we got it into Brazilian newspapers where no cry against cutting down the rainforest is ever heard.

Presenter17:21

You did save Wales.

Katharine Hamnett17:22

Save whales, ban acid, stop acid rain, ban pollution.

Presenter17:26

So you did two impossible things, really. You made ecology fashionable and you made a million pounds.

Katharine Hamnett17:33

Well, um

Katharine Hamnett17:34

It's dangerous playing with fashion in ecology because fashion goes out of fashion.

Katharine Hamnett17:39

Nothing goes out of fashion like fashion. And the dangerous thing is by making issues on T shirts fashionable, that when the idea of wearing a issue on a T shirt isn't fashionable.

Katharine Hamnett17:50

Do you actually damage the issue?

Presenter17:52

It seems to be a fashion that's gone on and on, though. It doesn't seem to be going away, does it?

Katharine Hamnett17:57

Yes, i they were they were good. I mean we've done Sanctions South Africa and that's very popular in the fact that it's a message on a T-shirt doesn't seem to be destroying its sales at all.

Presenter18:07

Right, let's have your fifth record.

Katharine Hamnett18:09

Well this is a great piece of hip-hop called Walk This Way, Talk This Way by Rundy MC.

Speaker 218:15

She saw with the boys in two NFPs nine up and

Katharine Hamnett18:18

Uh

Speaker 218:18

Uh

Katharine Hamnett18:19

Singer ain't did I'm feeling with the heater in the middle I be swinging like I just don't care So to this bitch here at the

Katharine Hamnett18:26

We believe who was ready to play. It wasn't me, she was

Speaker 118:29

What she knew what she was doing when she told me I had a walk this way She told me to walk this way

Speaker 118:38

Fuck that!

Speaker 218:38

That's what

Speaker 218:40

Don't be flash

Speaker 118:42

It's over.

Speaker 218:42

Do I

Presenter18:45

Walk This Way, Talk This Way by Run DMC. Let's get back to business, Catherine. Um one bankruptcy behind you, one divorce behind you after the first downer time.

Presenter18:59

But nineteen seventy nine came and you set up Catherine Hamlet Limited, which uh just took off. But you set it up with five hundred pounds. What did you do with that five hundred pounds?

Katharine Hamnett19:08

I just found myself with a baby and a mortgage and no visible means of support, and a panic attack.

Katharine Hamnett19:14

And I realized that much to my loathing I was going to have to go back into manufacturing. I mean, I just can't bear it. I wish I'd been an artist because at least you've only got to make one, you know, and then you move on to the next one. But um I made a range of prototypes and literally trudged them round my shop the shops.

Katharine Hamnett19:32

in a suitcase.

Presenter19:33

What were they? I mean, you can't buy a match for five hundred quid.

Katharine Hamnett19:34

Black leather. Black leather. It was at a punky time.

Katharine Hamnett19:40

And um I took it to Brown's and Robert Forrest forgot his appointment. So I went to Joseph and he was really scared. And so I said, Look, you have to take it, it's so fabulous, you know He said, No, didn't he kiss the you know if we can say this kind of thing I said look, take six jacket sale or retire. I don't know where I got that money from. But anyway he did and they sold out on the first day and it just went on from there. Then they realized I was right. But that's the hardest thing really, is that I think that the designer is very in touch with the consumer, but the shops are always very, very cautious.

Presenter20:14

And you need them to give you the break.

Katharine Hamnett20:14

We need them to

Katharine Hamnett20:15

Yeah, you do. You've got to somehow get it into the shops because

Presenter20:18

You came up shortly after that, didn't you, with the army fatigue look?

Katharine Hamnett20:21

Which really took off.

Katharine Hamnett20:26

People are being through a very sort of clawed montana, huge shoulders.

Katharine Hamnett20:30

fascist dressing and I thought I just felt it. I was on holiday in France one day in the middle of the country and it just hit me.

Katharine Hamnett20:37

That that's what people wanted to wear, and so we did a sort of

Katharine Hamnett20:40

a pastiche of it, of playing around, but then it has t it does have the beauty of the military stuff of being utterly functional. I mean, those are the real unsung heroes of

Speaker 120:47

Mm-hmm.

Katharine Hamnett20:50

twentieth century clothing design.

Katharine Hamnett20:53

The guys that make the military uniforms that they modify, test, modify until they get it perfect.

Presenter20:58

So by this time you were designing for men as well.

Katharine Hamnett21:01

Well, in nineteen eighty one we came out with our

Katharine Hamnett21:04

First Men's Collection.

Katharine Hamnett21:06

Um I bought it out'cause I was terrified that maybe the women's wear wouldn't go too well and I wouldn't be able to afford to pay my pattern cutter.

Katharine Hamnett21:12

And now we do fifty percent of that. Fifty percent of turnover is men's work.

Presenter21:13

Fifty percent

Presenter21:15

And now you've got Mick Jagger as a clan.

Katharine Hamnett21:17

We've had him for ages. We have lots and lots of pop stars. Oh, go on, drop a few names. Who'd we dress them? Pet Shop Boys? Well, all the Rolling Stones.

Presenter21:21

So go on, drop a few names.

Katharine Hamnett21:29

Oh, the Frank Against the Hollywood crowd.

Katharine Hamnett21:34

who else I mean, there's just like if you mention anybody, pretty well anybody you've ever heard of, there's you know, who's got some Catherine Hamlet in the wardrobe somewhere, Cher Boneau, Paul Newman, George Michael, um

Presenter21:44

Check.

Presenter21:49

You can stop now. I'm impressed. Let's have another record.

Katharine Hamnett21:54

Well this is for uh somebody who I think is a very clever Englishman and who's still really got got to make it big. Um Malcolm McLaren's version of Um Bell di Vedremo from Puccini's Madden Butterfly.

Speaker 222:06

Back in Nagasaki I got married to Kyujo-san.

Speaker 222:10

That was a name.

Speaker 222:12

Those days.

Presenter22:15

And I was a man.

Presenter22:19

I'll go back visit her.

Presenter22:23

She got problems.

Presenter22:26

She got a little chump show.

Presenter22:29

Chocho Sam is the name.

Presenter22:32

And Mr. Taylor Wood.

Presenter22:34

Take it away, Kyocho.

Presenter22:37

Malcolm McLaren's version of One Fine Day from Puccini's Madam Butterfly. Catherine, you're a single parent. You have two boys, William and Sam. How old are they?

Katharine Hamnett22:46

Sam's twelve, Williams seven.

Presenter22:48

And are you bringing them up in that very orthodox fashion in which you were brought up?

Katharine Hamnett22:54

Well, no, not in the orthodox fashion, but

Katharine Hamnett22:56

I'm afraid they are having a private education. I sent Sam to State school when he was seven and a half.

Katharine Hamnett23:02

He couldn't read. I was absolutely horrified.

Katharine Hamnett23:05

Because I thought, you know, he's a bright kid, I think he's a bright kid, maybe I'm a doting mother, you know, but surely he should be able to read by now.

Katharine Hamnett23:12

I'd had him tested by an educational psychologist because I thought maybe he's just, you know, autistic and dalty. But, you know, he came up very high in everything except concentration. And um I thought well this is no good. You know, I hooked him out of school, had private tutors for him per term, which didn't work'cause they miss out on the social. And then started hunting around to find a school that could get him to catch up because I realized that

Katharine Hamnett23:38

There's just no hope for him in the school that he was going to or the kind of the way that state schools are being run.

Presenter23:43

And

Katharine Hamnett23:43

Now he's fine, but I mean it's been the most incredible slog. I mean I had to take him to Chelsea.

Katharine Hamnett23:49

every morning for two years and it was like an hour and a half in the traffic before you even go to work. You know, it's like I mean, I know a lot of people have to do it, but I choose not to commute. But now he's going to be fine. I mean I do think that children are born with um

Katharine Hamnett24:05

the possibility of being good at everything. You just have to stimulate them and excite them.

Katharine Hamnett24:09

You know, you just have to turn them on.

Presenter24:11

And how do they cope, these these boys, with having a a a zany, peripathetic, very successful mother?

Katharine Hamnett24:18

And I'm quite tough with myself. I suppose I passed up a lot of

Katharine Hamnett24:22

glittering social opportunities. I mean I go out occasionally but most of the time after work I go home and see them because I know that if I don't see them then, you know, they're going to be grown up and gone and I just want to make sure that they're happy and balanced and normal.

Presenter24:36

So you live you live for them and you live for your work.

Katharine Hamnett24:39

Yes. I mean, I also live my life. I've got lots of interests. But I do think that if you've got kids, you've really got to you know, there's no substitute for time. I mean, I think all that rubbish about, you know, it's the quality, not the quantity, it's the absolute rubbish, it's both. So you take lots of holidays? I take all the school holidays off.

Katharine Hamnett24:55

With them we just disappear.

Presenter24:57

What about fifteen weeks each?

Katharine Hamnett24:58

About fifteen weeks a year, yes.

Presenter25:01

And uh do you have any desire to get married again?

Katharine Hamnett25:03

And not really.

Katharine Hamnett25:05

Because, um, the first time I got married I lost everything.

Katharine Hamnett25:09

And I think that it's terrible the way that you can be zapped. I was going to be the first woman in England sued for alimony by her husband.

Katharine Hamnett25:15

And so I'm an I suppose once bit and forever shy on that one.

Presenter25:19

Let's have a seventh record, shall we?

Katharine Hamnett25:21

Oh, this is really mad. This is um I put this in'cause it's just loony. I really like loony things. There's a sort of French genre of music that you never hear in this country. And I thought, um, well, we had to have it. It's called it's Titi, I think, singing Beaujo Titi.

Speaker 225:39

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Speaker 225:48

Yeah.

Speaker 125:48

My viewer, bonkie, bratiti, bratitis, celebrity.

Speaker 226:04

Monkey.

Presenter26:07

Bonjour tittie salu Silvestre song by Who else but Titti and Silvestre?

Presenter26:13

Catherine Hamlet, it seems to me that you have um a a fundamental dilemma because you're a thriving, thrusting capitalist, and at the same time whether you like the label or not, you're really a socialist.

Katharine Hamnett26:25

Yes, I mean I there's all sorts of levels that it happens on as far as we're living. It's every everybody wants to be a capitalist, wants to look like a capitalist at the moment, and they want clothes that make them look like a capitalist and I think that sort of the exploitation of the many for the few is like a b a bad thing really. But at the same time

Katharine Hamnett26:49

sort of on the other level of actually being an employer and making money out of the time that the the people who employ their time. Well, I suppose I I look at it and I think, well

Katharine Hamnett27:00

I'm quite a nice person to work for and very easy going.

Katharine Hamnett27:05

We're doing quite nice things. It's quite an interesting company to be involved in.

Presenter27:09

So you're you're a good employer, you're an exporter, so you're making money for the country in that sense. You've won awards for export, haven't you?

Katharine Hamnett27:09

So you're

Katharine Hamnett27:15

Yeah.

Presenter27:15

Uh

Katharine Hamnett27:16

Yeah.

Presenter27:16

I mean, there are those who would say you are the classic product of Thatcher's Britain.

Katharine Hamnett27:21

Well, I think people like me are tough, hardworking entrepreneurs and they also prospered under Socialist government. Apart from tax cuts, I don't think that Mrs Thatcher has p particularly contributed to my wealth or success.

Presenter27:35

You don't, it seems to me, care very much now about money. You take it for grant I mean, you are seriously rich and you can therefore afford to forget about it.

Katharine Hamnett27:44

Well, I don't know. I d I think that anybody that's ambitious has probably got some

Katharine Hamnett27:48

Fundamental terror of being poor.

Katharine Hamnett27:51

Which I always do. I mean, I always think of a collection that goes down well. I think, oh, thank God we can eat.

Katharine Hamnett27:56

So you can't do that first.

Presenter27:56

So you live you live from panic to panic, do you?

Katharine Hamnett27:59

Well, I d I d kind of do. I mean, it's very stressful when you're producing two collections every six months, and they've got to be good. I mean, there's very few artists that could deliver four shows a year. Let's have your eighth record. Well, this is just um, I think, a nice finale. Jerusalem.

Presenter29:20

Jerusalem sung by the B B C Welsh Chorus with the B B C Welsh Symphony Orchestra.

Presenter29:25

So Catherine Hamlet, the final three announcements that you have to make. The first one is, which of those records would you like to have more than any of the others?

Katharine Hamnett29:36

Well, I suppose in the end of the day I think you always need a laugh. So I think I take big hit.

Presenter29:41

Max by Graves and Big Ed. Right. Um and then your book. You have, I'm sure you know, the complete works of Shakespeare and you have the Bible. What other book would you like to have to keep you happy?

Katharine Hamnett29:51

Hmm, I think

Presenter29:51

Mm, I think I take the Iching.

Katharine Hamnett29:52

Uh

Presenter29:53

The button.

Katharine Hamnett29:53

The I Ching. What's that? Well, it's supposed to be the oldest book in the world, and it's a book of which is compiled from folklore and early Chinese philosophy, sort of pre-Confucian. And I think that um

Katharine Hamnett30:08

It's a it's a fascinating book because it's a book of philosophy. You can also use it for fortune telling. I mean, it's a bit of a sort of you can ask it questions whenever you're in a jam and it'll give you the most amazing advice. It's like a good father almost.

Presenter30:20

What about the perfect luxury have you chosen?

Katharine Hamnett30:24

Well, I'd like an aircraft carrier, but I can't tell what

Presenter30:26

Oh is oh can't I?

Katharine Hamnett30:26

Oh, is it?

Presenter30:28

No, well you might escape.

Katharine Hamnett30:29

Well, th I think you could take the engines away.

Katharine Hamnett30:32

And then I'd decorate it on the inside, like sort of each hangar would be sort of a different theme. I could have the Arctic hangar and I could have the mangrove swamp hangar.

Katharine Hamnett30:45

Well, I think it should be moored about half a mile offshore because I think that

Katharine Hamnett30:50

You you know, like a mile a day swim is quite good for the bod and it just keeps you going longer. It's very important to be physically active. If you're physically active, you live longer. And I want to live a very long time.

Presenter31:03

So a good swimmer day to out to your toy anchored off the beach, as long as you promise not to live in it, not to sleep in it at night.

Katharine Hamnett31:10

Uh

Presenter31:12

Now I'd swim to shore.

Presenter31:14

Right.

Presenter31:16

Catherine Hamlet, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Presenter31:28

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.